M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

Chris_533976 · 18-05-2007 2:10pm

The NRA have screwed up bigtime here. They didnt survey the route properly and bringing the route close to the Hill of Tara and to put a dumbell interchange there was just stupid, no matter what way you look at it. Yes, it would cost more to reroute it.... but I think it would be worth it to save all this muck going on. Its going to take YEARS to build this road with protesters and legal stuff and constant finds.

And then the NRA have the idiocy to propose sending the Macroom bypass through castle grounds.

We need roads, but we also need people who can put these roads in a sane place.

D'Peoples Voice · 19-05-2007 1:11pm

Chris_533976 wrote:

And then the NRA have the idiocy to propose sending the Macroom bypass through castle grounds.

Let me guess, Cork county council had no part in this route?
You remind me of someone I know who refuses to accept that Mayo county Council granted planning permission for Gas terminal Bellanaboy. We must remember we actually get to vote in two sets of muppets!
http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/web/Cork%20County%20Council/Departments/Divisional%20Services/Roads/About%20Roads

Cork County Council is the designated Road Authority for Cork County. Its rights and obligations in this regard are set out in the Roads Act, 1993. The Council is responsible for the maintenance, construction and safety of the public road network in the County. Its role also involves the planning, design and development of 500km of national roads and 11,582km of non-national roads.

Chris_533976 · 19-05-2007 2:08pm

Yeah I know, Cork COCO did have something to do with it. Its an overall problem... but in any case whoever looked at the OS map, saw the little square red dot with "Castle" written next to it and decided "Lets build a road there" is a steaming great idiot.

Victor · 19-05-2007 3:57pm

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Something weird I've noticed in recent days is the Scheme Activity on the NRA website.

BUT, the part of the N6 completed TODAY (N6 Kinnegad/Athlone Phase 1 (Kinnegad/Kilbeggan)) has been updated on the Road Activity list, so clearly someone is ACTIVELY updated the website.

www.nra.ie has been very hit and miss over the last few months, I suspect because they have lost staff through decentralisation and the formation of the RSA.

Xyndrix wrote:

I'm not an expert on the planning and zoning system but from what I can gather there's nothing to stop you applying for planning permission for anything really regardless of the zoning. It's just that in most cases if it's not zoned for that particular use then planning is very unlikely to be granted. If planning is granted then that may automatically change the zoning of the land. It seems logical that it would, but again I'm not sure of the precise details surrounding this.

Potentially it can be rezoned in a variation of the county development plan (has the new one been formally adopted) or they can get a material contravention (remember them?) or they go for a land use that is 'open for consideration'.

Bards · 23-05-2007 11:02am

Sorry if it has been reported before (I had a brief check and couldn't find any)

Photo's of Lismullin can be found here http://www.nra.ie/News/DownloadableDocumentation/file,4696,en.pdf

D'Peoples Voice · 28-05-2007 1:49pm

Victor wrote:

www.nra.ie has been very hit and miss over the last few months, I suspect because they have lost staff through decentralisation and the formation of the RSA.

Indeed, the NRA now have included the M3 on their website
http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/SchemeMaps/file,4705,en.pdf

D'Peoples Voice · 15-06-2007 7:57am

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0615/m3.html
Gormley to review M3-Tara decision
Friday, 15 June 2007 07:39

The Minister for the Environment, John Gormley, is expected to review a decision taken by his predecessor to allow the M3 motorway go over a recently discovered archaeologoical site.

The Green Party's Dan Boyle said Dick Roche's decision to sign an order for the destruction of the prehistoric site at Lismullen near Tara, following an archaelogical investigation, was something his party was not happy with.

One of the final decisions taken by Dick Roche as Minister was to sign an order which will result in the remains at Lismullen being investigated by a team of archaeologists, and then built over.

On Prime Time last night, Dan Boyle said he hoped the new Environment Minister would examine the matter when he goes to the Custom House this morning.

If the decision stands, work on the M3 at Lismullen will not resume for some time until the archaeological work is complete.

Work on other parts of the motorway will continue as normal.

D'Peoples Voice · 23-06-2007 3:58pm

How many more sites will they find!
Dunshaughlin to Cavan via Trim looks to have a better route for the road all right!

Campaigners say new archaeological find lying in path of M3 works
23/06/2007

The new Minister for the Environment, John Gormley, is being asked to stop work on the M3 motorway after a new archaeological find.

The TaraWatch group, which is campaigning for the motorway to be re-routed, says the underground stone structures, which are located near another archaeological site, are a significant find.

"Its further evidence for what we have been saying all along about this valley - its just full of archaeological wonders," said member Laura Grealish.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhkfgbkfeymh/

D'Peoples Voice · 17-10-2007 5:48pm

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhmhcweysnql/

Cuffe welcomes EU's court action on Tara

The Green Party's law reform spokesperson Ciarán Cuffe has welcomed the European Commission's decision to clarify the legal implications of the previous government's decision to construct the M3 motorway near the Hill of Tara.

Deputy Cuffe said: "I welcome consideration of these issues by the European Court of Justice (ECJ). The Commission is raising points of great importance for EU environmental law and heritage protection both in Ireland and across the EU.

"My Green Party colleague, John Gormley has already started the process of overhauling Irish heritage legislation to ensure that the M3/Tara controversy can never happen again. These changes will, we hope, satisfy the European Commission's entirely justified concerns that the legal framework for environmental and heritage protection in Ireland is inadequate.

"All of the legal advice available to Minister Gormley since taking office has been that Irish law does not provide any means for him to affect or change the decisions on the routing of the M3 made by the previous government.

"We urgently need a decision from the ECJ on the question of further environmental impact assessment when discoveries of major archaeological or heritage value are made once a major construction project has commenced.

"I also believe that we need a new National Monuments Act to ensure that Ireland's invaluable heritage is adequately protected from the pressures of development."

D'Peoples Voice · 17-10-2007 6:22pm

The local Authority has got off scott free:mad:
Why does no-one think the local authority have a part to play in all this?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhmhcwojmhcw/

Tara campaigners promise new High Court action
17/10/2007 - 18:05:54

Campaigners opposed to the routing of the M3 motorway near the Hill of Tara today vowed to launch another High Court action to halt the road works.

TaraWatch said the European Commission’s decision to take the Government to the European Court of Justice (ECJ) over the construction project signalled a green light for a renewed legal offensive at home.

He said individuals linked to TaraWatch will lodge papers with the High Court in Dublin on the basis that ex-Minister for the Environment Dick Roche’s decision to proceed with construction and the ongoing works is contrary to EU law.

“This really is a defining moment for the coalition, the EU is taking them to court. They cannot deny now that this is a serious problem.”

It says the Government did not carry out an assessment on the significance of the national monument at Lismullen before deciding to remove it.

EU Environment Commissioner Stavros Dimas said: “I am disappointed that Ireland has not accepted the Commission view that improvements are needed in its legislation on impact assessments in order to better safeguard and give the public more say in decisions affecting its rich archaeological heritage, and to better guarantee that industrial projects will be comprehensively assessed.”

It could take weeks to months before the EC case is fully prepared and lodged with the ECJ for hearing.

Navan Junction · 17-10-2007 6:56pm

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

The local Authority has got off scott free:mad:
Why does no-one think the local authority have a part to play in all this?

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhmhcwojmhcw/

Because the case would be about the National Monuments legislation and governmental obligations rather than about the M3

rameire · 17-10-2007 9:00pm

i live in kildare and a new developer is thinking of moving some stones that have been sitting in the ground for millions of years, anyone know a good campaigner, to stop the illegal movement of these stones, they have a right to stay burried in the ground un-noticed for a few more million years until some robot wants to put them on his mantle shelf, will vincent support me

Seth Brundle · 17-10-2007 9:43pm

rameire wrote: »

i live in kildare and a new developer is thinking of moving some stones that have been sitting in the ground for millions of years, anyone know a good campaigner, to stop the illegal movement of these stones, they have a right to stay burried in the ground un-noticed for a few more million years until some robot wants to put them on his mantle shelf, will vincent support me

Thats a very simplistic view of things.
The M3/Tara issue regards the state endorsed destruction of what should be a national monument.
IMO the motorway has been badly planned from the start (from a public perspective). No alternatives were publicly considered. The chosen route that went forward to the planning process was more expensive and more destructive than the others. No reasonable explanation has been offered to the taxpayer for this.
The proposed motorway will contain two tolls and will be the only real option for commuters. Despite several promises nothing really has been done on a rail service for these commuters. A 2+1 route could have been completed by now relieving the commuter - why wasn't this option used?
The initial planning process was effectively biased and flawed and once it became clear that circumstances had changed in terms of the significance of the area (despite numerous predictions by respected academics) this was all efefctively ignored by the minister in charge of our heritage.
There also appears to be issues with the NRA 'altering' the original plans. Rath Lugh (which John Gormless recently applied a temporary preservation order on) was meant to be 100m from the motorway. Currently the motorway is within 20m of the monument.
It also appears that the interchange will also link up with a new Eastern orbital route at Blundelstown. It also appears that despite claims otherwise, the area will be zoned commercial in coming years.

Tara is steeped in history - possibly the most historic site in the country. To have it bulldozed to meet (in my opinion) the needs of greedy fianna fail funding is immoral.

Nevyn · 09-11-2007 3:21pm

Tara is not being bulldozed.
The road is being built the far side of the existing road and is not encrouching on Tara at all.

Seth Brundle · 09-11-2007 3:32pm

Apologies, I was referring to the Tara-Skryne valley.

L1011 · 09-11-2007 5:14pm

Thaedydal wrote: »

Tara is not being bulldozed.
The road is being built the far side of the existing road and is not encrouching on Tara at all.

And its this confusion that the anti-road campaigners appear to live on, because they've got massive amounts of people who seem to believe they're putting the road through the Hill of Tara - and not some distance away... (although kbannon has clarified that he's not one of those already)

D'Peoples Voice · 09-11-2007 6:46pm

Looks like at least Eirgrid have learnt the lesson from Meath County Council about trying to put an ugly piece of infrastucture through the skyrne valley
http://www.eirgrid.ie/EirgridPortal/uploads/East%20West%20Interconnector/Meath-Cavan%20Route%20Map.pdf
If only Meath county council had of taken one of these routes:(

lostexpectation · 09-11-2007 7:39pm

kbannon said Tara and he meant Tara, Tara is an area, Thaedydal and MYOB, along with the politicians are the only ones to put out the notion that the Hill of tara is being bulldozed.

BrianD · 09-11-2007 7:46pm

kbannon wrote: »

Thats a very simplistic view of things.
The M3/Tara issue regards the state endorsed destruction of what should be a national monument.
IMO the motorway has been badly planned from the start (from a public perspective). No alternatives were publicly considered. The chosen route that went forward to the planning process was more expensive and more destructive than the others. No reasonable explanation has been offered to the taxpayer for this.
The proposed motorway will contain two tolls and will be the only real option for commuters. Despite several promises nothing really has been done on a rail service for these commuters. A 2+1 route could have been completed by now relieving the commuter - why wasn't this option used?
The initial planning process was effectively biased and flawed and once it became clear that circumstances had changed in terms of the significance of the area (despite numerous predictions by respected academics) this was all efefctively ignored by the minister in charge of our heritage.
There also appears to be issues with the NRA 'altering' the original plans. Rath Lugh (which John Gormless recently applied a temporary preservation order on) was meant to be 100m from the motorway. Currently the motorway is within 20m of the monument.
It also appears that the interchange will also link up with a new Eastern orbital route at Blundelstown. It also appears that despite claims otherwise, the area will be zoned commercial in coming years.

Tara is steeped in history - possibly the most historic site in the country. To have it bulldozed to meet (in my opinion) the needs of greedy fianna fail funding is immoral.

Well put Mr. Bannon. It is most ironic that fuming motorists stuck on the N3 fail to understand the link between their predicament and the government that they have just voted in. It's not environmentalists who are holding the N3 (it's being built anyway) it's the well paid planners and their masters who made a mess of it in the first place. In any other country, they would have regard for their national heritage and chosen a route further away from Tara. The arguement that the M3 is further away from the existing route is a red herring.

ironically, the Dunshaughlin bypass will be built except it will be used as an access route for new housing developments that will go to the west of the village.

It is also ironic that many pro-M3 people are not fully aware of the tolling structure and that motorists going to Dublin will pay an average of €1,000 in tolls per annum (without going over the westlink). That's on top of your car tax. My dad works in Navan and he has encountered many customers who are flabergasted about the tolls.

it is also bizarre that those who intend to use the Park and Ride will get no relief from the second toll. It would have been more desirable if the southern toll was located after the exit for the proposed park and ride so favourisng those who use the facility.

Also why no tolls on the N2, also built to motorway standard?

L1011 · 09-11-2007 8:10pm

lostexpectation wrote: »

kbannon said Tara and he meant Tara, Tara is an area, Thaedydal and MYOB, along with the politicians are the only ones to put out the notion that the Hill of tara is being bulldozed.

Errr.... no. The majority of people in this country have a ((Tara==Hill of Tara)) automatic assumption and the anti-road campaigners do absolutely nothing to correct this - if anything they capitalise on the confusion. I've had to correct three people in work who've made this mistake, all along the "isn't it terrible they're putting a road through the Hill of Tara...." line.

Seth Brundle · 09-11-2007 10:33pm

In fairness MYOB, Im after doing a quick google for 'Save Tara'. Of the seven sites returned, one was for some US house whilst the rest are linked below:
http://www.savetara.com/
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/80968
http://www.mythicalireland.com/ancientsites/tara/threat.html
http://www.hilloftara.info/
http://www.savetaravalley.com/
http://www.tarawatch.org/

They all contain references to the Tara Skryne Valley - (with the debatable exception of hilloftara.info), maybe you can help me find where these sites are capitalising on the confusion.

Oh and from what I can see, the Blundelstown interchange is at the base of the hill so technically there will be bulldozing on the hill!
http://www.m3motorway.ie/RelatedContent/file,4383,en.pdf

cournioni · 10-11-2007 12:46pm

kbannon wrote: »

They all contain references to the Tara Skryne Valley - (with the debatable exception of hilloftara.info), maybe you can help me find where these sites are capitalising on the confusion.

All you have to do is look at the petition on the website you have linked in your signature to see how the protesters have been almost brainwashed into thinking that the road is actually going through the Hill of Tara. Most of the people I have spoken to about the M3 issue thought that the road was going through the hill also... I wonder who put that into their heads??

Seth Brundle · 10-11-2007 1:36pm

In all fairness, the site owners are not brainwashing the signees. The petition is quite clear

To: Prime Minister of Ireland, Mr Bertie Ahern

Dear Taoiseach Ahern,

I object the planned routing of the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne valley, and the resulting despoilment this will cause to Ireland’s oldest and most revered national monument.

The archaeological importance of this area is beyond question. After seven years surveying the Hill of Tara and its 80km² hinterland as director of the government funded Discovery Programme, Conor Newman said: “Tara is one of the most important and famous archaeological complexes in the world.… all of our researches point to the valley between Tara and Skryne as an area of paramount importance throughout the history of Tara.”

More recently, 12 eminent Irish historians and archaeologists in letters to the Irish Independent and The Examiner wrote: “The Hill of Tara constitutes the heart and Soul of Ireland. Its very name invokes the spirit and mystique of our people and is instantly recognisable worldwide. The plan approved recently by An Bord Pleanála for the M3 motorway to dissect the Tara-Skryne valley, Ireland's premier national monument, spells out a massive national and international tragedy that must be averted.”

Can anyone doubt the profound cultural importance of Tara and its unique landscape? A landscape honoured and revered by millions throughout the world today and countless generations of Irish people gone before us.
Nowhere else in Ireland is there a landscape that can claim the Tuatha de Danann, Celtic Gods and Goddesses, St. Patrick, Daniel O’Connell, Thomas Moore, heroes and High Kings from Fionn MacCumhail to Brian Boru, an archaeological complex of temples, tombs, enclosures and henges spanning five millennia, and a continuous place at the centre of Irish spiritual, cultural, political and literary history, as part of it’s fabric.

Yet it is through the very heart of this landscape, that Meath County Council, the NRA and the Irish Government wish to build a motorway, which will impact at least 141 known sites. According to Dr Conor Newman, this is just “the tip of the iceberg”.

Roads, of course, are necessary to relieving the nightmare of traffic congestion. However, in the absence of any plans to improve the Navan Road/M50 roundabout, the M3 project will not relieve congestion, it will merely move it from one place to another; plugging the worst bottleneck between Navan and Dublin even tighter. Spending €680m on an ineffectual motorway that will ruin Tara forever, cannot be described as progress; rather it constitutes wanton vandalism on a grand scale.

The National Roads Authority has released an estimate of €20m to excavate the route of the M3. I believe this figure could be closer to €100m, since there are more than likely so many monuments yet to be discovered, due to a low-grade geophysical survey carried out during the EIS. I strongly object to this amount of Irish taxpayers money being used to dig up our prize national monument, and other national monuments all around the country, especially in light of the recent High Court finding that heritage protection regulations enacted by your Government are unconstitutional.

And so I am moved to ask you three questions:

1). The M3 plans include the construction of a 34 acre floodlit intersection (Blundelstown) a mere 1,090 meters from the Hill of Tara’s core zone (as defined by OPW); what has, or will, your Office do to preserve the national monument of Tara from this permanent defacement?

2). Why are the people of Ireland being asked to pay €1.3 billion (via toll charges and taxes) for a project estimated at €64, but which cannot demonstrably relieve congestion, will lead to more violations of the Kyoto agreement, and will damage our national heritage irretrievably?

3). What will your Office do to urge re-consideration of the currently approved route for the M3, and/or to engage in a process of generating alternative effective solutions to the very real problem of traffic congestion in the area, such as reopening the Dublin to Navan railroad?

I look forward to your reply, and in the meantime urge you, in your capacity as Taoiseach to oppose the imminent despoilment of Tara by the M3 motorway, and to do all you can in working for the reversal of this disastrous decision.

What people write there is (I presume) not under the direct control of he site owners.

Chris_533976 · 10-11-2007 2:38pm

Yeah theres a ton of mistakes in that.

BrianD · 10-11-2007 3:56pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Yeah theres a ton of mistakes in that.

Care to elaborate?

It is really irrelevant whether people think that Tara is going to be physically bulldozed or not. That is not the issue. The issue is whether a new motorway that is being built to open up areas for development should be built through an area that everyone knows is of historic significance - especially as viable alternatives were available.

In any case, if you travel along the N3 you will see how close the construction work is to the hill itself.

Seth Brundle · 10-11-2007 10:23pm

Don't forget that the Blundelstown interchange will more than likely become part of the proposed ring road

darkman2 · 11-11-2007 3:01pm

There is not even any point in arguing anymore. The fact is that this motorway is well under construction. Realistically any arguments anyone may have had ended a year ago when construction began. It all seem a bit pointless now tbh.

Chris_533976 · 11-11-2007 3:13pm

BrianD wrote: »

Care to elaborate?

Roads, of course, are necessary to relieving the nightmare of traffic congestion. However, in the absence of any plans to improve the Navan Road/M50 roundabout, the M3 project will not relieve congestion, it will merely move it from one place to another;

N3/M50 roundabout will be (probobly) fully grade separated with the M50 works.

The National Roads Authority has released an estimate of €20m to excavate the route of the M3. I believe this figure could be closer to €100m, since there are more than likely so many monuments yet to be discovered, due to a low-grade geophysical survey carried out during the EIS.

Thats pure uneducated guesswork. Provide evidence of a fivefold increase in costs.

Why are the people of Ireland being asked to pay €1.3 billion (via toll charges and taxes) for a project estimated at €64,

Cheap stuff

Now I'm not saying either way on whether I want the motorway or not, but I'm just summing up that that letter should have been proofread

BrianD · 11-11-2007 11:05pm

darkman2 wrote: »

There is not even any point in arguing anymore. The fact is that this motorway is well under construction. Realistically any arguments anyone may have had ended a year ago when construction began. It all seem a bit pointless now tbh.

You are quite correct. It will probably be the fastest road ever built in this country. However, there are a couple of issues that can still be decided:

Elimination of the tolls on the route

and more importantly, focuses attention on the decision makers who have made a right royal cock up of planning the M3 route. Hopefully, lessons can be learned. It really does underline our complete ineptidude when it comes to national infrastructure planning.

spacetweek · 12-11-2007 9:35pm

We've screwed up bigtime by routing the road through this valley, it's true. The NRA said the reason they chose this route was because less homes would have to be demolished. I think they should have bitten the bullet and demolished away. Many of them were probably bungalow blitz shrapnel anyway - we could have killed two birds with one stone.

However, the locomotive can't be stopped now. The road is under construction and can't be undone. In any case, Meath and the northwest needs this infrastructure, as a rapidly urbanising region close to a major city. It also needs rail - more on that in a second.

There are a couple of things we need to do to mitigate this damage.

The Blundelstown interchange really is taking the piss - it's not enough to have the road going right past a national monument, but they also have to have a huge motorway interchange that will probably be floodlit at night and dominating the view both day and night from the summit of the hill. The lights need to be removed or screened from this and the whole structure heavily screened with tall trees to reduce the visual pollution - as should the whole stretch running through the valley.

Build the railway to Navan as quickly as possible to provide an essential non-motorway alternative.

Sort out the ridiculous tolling situation that will ensure that no one uses the PnR and stays on the road all the way into town. Eliminate the toll at Pace altogether (Gov buyout?) or provide a government subsidised rebate system - on entering the car park you get a voucher or something. This system would reward people for switching to rail at Pace and punish those who stay in the car, who don't get their toll back. The motorway operators don't mind because people have finished driving on the motorway at that stage anyway and they still get paid.

M3 Clonee-Kells route selection and archaelogical info

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