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Tamir Rice Video Released

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    #92
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Peppa Cig wrote: »
    In general terms - if you go around waving a gun Or something that appears to be a gun expect an armed police response in any country.
    If you then fail to comply with the specific instructions of armed police and reach for gun/something resembling a gun expect to be shot. Does not matter if your 10, 20 or 90 years old. Everyone knows that right?

    An American youth with access to replica guns would know - from movies if nothing else.

    Police follow strict rules of engagement to justify lethal force. Can't tell from the scrappy cctv but I suspect it will be justified.

    Firearms are taken very seriously by all police.
    shooting someone for "not complying" is murder and any cop who murders someone for this is a dreg. had the gun been pointed with hand on trigger then the cops would have a case. as it wasn't, they don't. they are supposed to follow strict rules of engagement but lets face it, over there they seem to be broken on a regular basis, just like this case. yeah this murder will be justified and which ever gullible lot get to decide will side with the cops as per usual. the kid wouldn't know anything from films if anything, as films don't always reflect real life

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #93
    Putinovsky
    Registered Users Posts: 368 ✭✭Putinovsky


    I don't think there can be any doubt now. Those cops approached that situation looking for confrontation.


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    #94
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    That's it exactly. Police aren't judge, jury and executioner. They can't decide to take your life to 'non-compliance' and if they do, they should be treated like the murderers they are.


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    #95
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    end of the road wrote: »
    it was a brootle execution. he was murdered. given no chance what soever. no excuses for this brootle murder. i told you all the police gave him no instructions and few if anyone believed me

    brutal indeed


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    #96
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Beano wrote: »
    brutal indeed
    yes it was.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #97
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Feel so sad watching that footage. All I see is a boy playing away on his own and then next minute he is dead. :(

    For all the opportunities that the USA can offer a person, I would never want to raise my family there. We have a lot to be grateful for living on this little island, freedom for kids to be kids and role play to their hearts content being one of them


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    #98
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    ceadaoin. wrote: »

    Someone said the person that called the cops is an idiot. Why? In Ireland if you see a kid with a gun you would probably assume it's a fake. In America it's very different.

    Personally I think that kids playing with 'toy' guns is part of the problem. There is too much of a gun culture in the US. I would be very uncomfortable with my child playing with guns, even obvious toy ones. To me, it normalizes and trivializes a deadly weapon.

    Yep agree

    In the US it happens every so often that a child shoots someone, often a classmate, with a real gun that they found and thought was a toy.

    There is no way you could safely apply Irish assumptions to a situation where you see an American child with what looks like a real gun.

    The responsible thing to do is phone it in.


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    #99
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    A couple of observations.

    1) to all intents and purposes, the police were confronting someone with a 1911 .45. I've taken some time looking at the picture of the thing, and barring the magazine, I can't tell the difference.
    2) A .45 can kill a man just as easily if the trigger is pulled by an adult as if it were pulled by a ten year old.
    3) things can happen very, very quickly, it doesn't matter if the police just showed up or not, there is a threat at the time the trigger was pulled or there was not. If you watch the footage of the police arriving in London at the scene of the chap who was beheaded, one officer was pretty much shooting before she finished getting out of the car,
    4) I have no idea why the police happened to pull up that close to the boy, but one viewpoint doesn't tell a huge story,


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    #100
    Mint Aero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,570 ✭✭✭Mint Aero


    Murica!


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    #101
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    The cops have some serious questions to answer over this one.

    Think we can all unite in hoping the denizens of Cleveland don't use this incident as an excuse to sack their own town Ferguson style. That will serve only to spread misery and force innocents to suffer.


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    #102
    hairybelly
    Registered Users Posts: 165 ✭✭hairybelly


    lol @ all the people defending the cops.


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    #103
    Peppa Cig
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭Peppa Cig


    end of the road wrote: »
    shooting someone for "not complying" is murder and any cop who murders someone for this is a dreg. had the gun been pointed with hand on trigger then the cops would have a case. as it wasn't, they don't. they are supposed to follow strict rules of engagement but lets face it, over there they seem to be broken on a regular basis, just like this case. yeah this murder will be justified and which ever gullible lot get to decide will side with the cops as per usual. the kid wouldn't know anything from films if anything, as films don't always reflect real life

    Armed police do not wait until an armed suspect is "pointing gun with finger on trigger" - nor should they.


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    #104
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    If you watch the footage of the police arriving in London at the scene of the chap who was beheaded, one officer was pretty much shooting before she finished getting out of the car

    i hope she was got rid of from the force. officers should be fully out of the car and in position before they start shooting.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #105
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,562 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    end of the road wrote: »
    i hope she was got rid of from the force. officers should be fully out of the car and in position before they start shooting.

    A man was running at her with a meat cleaver.


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    #106
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Peppa Cig wrote: »
    Armed police do not wait until an armed suspect is "pointing gun with finger on trigger" - nor should they.
    absolutely they should to ensure nobody innocent gets shot. the reason they don't wait is because they are looking for that ultimate kill

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #107
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Strider wrote: »
    A man was running at her with a meat cleaver.
    doesn't matter, she should be out of the car and in position to ensure the bullits are more likely to reach the target

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #108
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,562 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    end of the road wrote: »
    absolutely they should to ensure nobody innocent gets shot. the reason they don't wait is because they are looking for that ultimate kill

    Christ.


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    #109
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,562 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    end of the road wrote: »
    doesn't matter, she should be out of the car and in position to ensure the bullits are more likely to reach the target

    If the sight is lined up the round will be on target.

    What fo you class as 'in position'? As long as they have a firm grip on the firearm and a good sight picture there is no reason not to fire, it wasn't a fcking Barrett with massive recoil she was firing.

    Police are trained to fire from unconventional positions.


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    #110
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    end of the road wrote: »
    doesn't matter, she should be out of the car and in position to ensure the bullits are more likely to reach the target

    At that stage she would have had a lunatic with a meat cleaver upon her.

    You seem to speak with great authority on incidents like this. Are you an expert on policing and firearms?


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    #111
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Strider wrote: »
    If the sight is lined up the round will be on target.

    What fo you class as 'in position'? As long as they have a firm grip on the firearm and a good sight picture there is no reason not to fire, it wasn't a fcking Barrett with massive recoil she was firing.

    Police are trained to fire from unconventional positions.
    doesn't matter. she should be out of the car and in position to ensure the bullits reach the target. shooting while getting out of a car is a potential hazard

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #112
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    DeadHand wrote: »
    At that stage she would have had a lunatic with a meat cleaver upon her.

    she would be out of the car and able to take him down without losing focus

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #113
    Beano
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,357 ✭✭✭Beano


    end of the road wrote: »
    i hope she was got rid of from the force. officers should be fully out of the car and in position before they start shooting.

    care to detail your experience of firearms use in a law enforcement setting?


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    #114
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,562 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    end of the road wrote: »
    doesn't matter. she should be out of the car and in position to ensure the bullits reach the target. shooting while getting out of a car is a potential hazard

    I just told you..if the sights were on him that's where the round goes. Being 'in position' won't help. They're specifically trained to fire in awkward positions, these are emergency services...situations differ and they won't always be able to get into the picture perfect position you think they can before firing.

    You have a massive chip on your shoulder in regards to all police forces so it wouldn't suprise me if you said that she shouldn't have touched the gun until the cleaver was actually buried in her neck.


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    #115
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Strider wrote: »
    I just told you..if the sights were on him that's where the round goes. Being 'in position' won't help. They're specifically trained to fire in awkward positions, these are emergency services...situations differ and they won't always be able to get into the picture perfect position you think they can before firing.

    she should have been out of the car. thats it.
    Strider wrote: »
    You have a massive chip on your shoulder in regards to all police forces so it wouldn't suprise me if you said that she shouldn't have touched the gun until the cleaver was actually buried in her neck.

    wrong. rubbish. no i don't

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #116
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,737 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    end of the road wrote: »
    she would be out of the car and able to take him down without losing focus

    Ah, here.

    I imagine a machete to the face negatively effects focus.

    You seen immune to facts, reality, commonsense and the opinions of others. You're becoming a parody account at this stage.


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    #117
    Gyalist
    Registered Users Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Gyalist


    kylith wrote: »
    Unfortunately my remark still stands. The cops probably didn't see him take one, just saw a man with a gun.

    Ohio, where both of these incidents occured, is an open carry state. Notice how different the police response is to these Ohioans.


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    #118
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    floggg wrote: »
    I don't believe it was murder. The cop probably reacted that way out of instinct and fear as much as anything else.

    The problem here is the incompetence, apparent lack of training and attitudes of the cops.

    If they believed the kid was genuinely armed why did the they drive in so close and aggressively, immediately exit the vehicle and shoot. Why didn't they enter the scene slowly, park up further back, assume a covered position and attempt to question him.

    We see nobody else in the vicinity or in any apparent immediate danger. There was no need for such an aggressive response, no was it wise tactically.

    You wonder what training, if any do these people have. You see army personnel in these situations and they instinctively know how to control a dangerous situation and their own instincts and fears. The police however seem to show no awareness in how to deal with these things at all - yet are heavily armed and seem to be given free reign to use force.

    From all the recent police shootings in the states it's very clear that there is no respect for life at all amongst the police and it appears to be an institutional culture. They shoot first and ask questions later.

    I also don't think its a coincidence that most of the victims of these shootings are black/non-White.

    There is an institutional racism whereby they assume every black or brown person is carrying a weapon or about to attack. And they don't have enough respect for these communities or the youths involved to take the time to see if their initial assumptions are through.

    So I don't think the problem isn't individual police officers, but the entire system.

    I.e he acted like a child himself. It's not a good thing that cops act out of fear (of kids). America is a good country in a lot of ways but it seems to be run on fear and their perceived right to respond to that fear.


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    #119
    policarp
    Registered Users Posts: 3,661 ✭✭✭policarp


    If you saw someone pointing a gun at you?

    What would you do?


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    #120
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    policarp wrote: »
    If you saw someone pointing a gun at you?

    What would you do?

    If you believed someone had a gun and an intention to use it would you drive up right beside them like the police in this case?

    Whatever about what happened after they arrived on the scene, a lot can be asked about what they were thinking leading up to that.

    Not sure how anyone can defend such recklessness.


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    #121
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,203 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Since scenarios are being set up as facts, how about this one:

    Police are told a person with a gun is in a public area. Police turn up, only see a kid who starts to helpfully walk towards them. They pull up to ask him if he had seen anything. Kid lifts jumper to show/go for gun and rookie fires in line with training to not take chances. A more experienced cop might have dealt with the situation more calmly, but this is not 'all cops' it is one inexperienced rookie. And a gun culture.


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