Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

realweirdo · 02-10-2014 8:40pm

alastair wrote: »

It's not directed at ISIS. It's directed at those casual bigots, who might well assume that ISIS had some form of connection with them, through claiming a religious rationale for their actions. You know those kind of bigots, all too eager to tarnish an entire religious community with the acts of a small minority?

A bigot is typically someone who knows nothing about a religion or a race, hates people for the colour of their skin, is racist and so on.

Seems to me you flash the bigot card as soon as there is any legitimate criticism not of Muslims per se but of Islam itself.

My motives are to stand up for human rights and for people to be treated with respect, regardless of their religion.

Unfortunately and you cannot simply deny this, there is a strong bigotry in Islam against what it calls infidels. And if even a small minority act on this bigotry in a violent way we are all in trouble.

I'm out of this thread now.

alastair · 02-10-2014 10:37pm

realweirdo wrote: »

A bigot is typically someone who knows nothing about a religion or a race, hates people for the colour of their skin, is racist and so on.

Seems to me you flash the bigot card as soon as there is any legitimate criticism not of Muslims per se but of Islam itself.

Bigot. noun
a person who is intolerant of any ideas other than his or her own, esp on religion, politics, or race

AlekSmart · 02-10-2014 11:17pm

rozeboosje wrote: »

It's not my place to tell Muslims whose interpretation of their lovely little book is "right" or "wrong". To me it's all superstitious nonsense. But that's irrelevant. What *I* can do is encourage those whose interpretation is peaceful and to include them and embrace them as fellow human beings, and discourage and oppose those whose interpretation is confrontational, barbaric or unacceptable in a secular society. I'm under no delusion that I can get 1.5 billion people to stop believing in sky fairies. That's never gonna happen.

There is common ground for sure.

Which is why I,personally,feel that Islamic adherents such as those you posted MUST be forcefully supported by their leaders,including the Imam's, and assorted other eminent clerical figures.

For every anonymous cultured,educated and reasonable Islamic adherent,there is an Anjem Chaudry,complete with voiciferous support and with apparently unending supplies of bile.

I'm not suggesting we should get 1.5 billion Muslims to stop believing in whatever fairy they prefer,but I would be satisfied if the "Tiny Percentage" who see decapitation as acceptable and sanctioned by their "Holy Prophet",were to reconsider their position.

rozeboosje · 03-10-2014 9:36am

AlekSmart wrote: »

For every anonymous cultured,educated and reasonable Islamic adherent,there is an Anjem Chaudry,complete with voiciferous support and with apparently unending supplies of bile.

Yes, but the same can be said about the Westboros, albeit that they're not as physically dangerous as people going around cutting other people's heads off. The sad thing is that the loud and obnoxious minorities will always steal the limelight.

I'm an atheist. I have now lost interest in doing so, but for a couple of years I was quite busy posting videos on YouTube about being an atheist, and I got a small group of people interested enough to subscribe to me. There was this one guy who subscribed to me. Never commented much, but I knew he was there. For some reason he got his account suspended, and he created a new account, and subscribed to me again. I obviously must have been striking a chord with him if he felt I was interesting enough to subscribe not once, but twice.

I while later I heard that Pekka Erik Auvinen, because that's who it was, had gone on a murderous rampage through his school in Finland. I have no idea what possessed him. He had, apparently, embraced a bleak, nihilistic form of atheism that left him feeling that humanity was worthless .... what the effin' eff' ever. Rest assured that wherever he got his crazy ideas, it wasn't from ME. Should I go around denouncing the acts of somebody like him just because he and I happened to share one particular label, "atheist", and he seemed to take a particular interest in me and my public announcements? Why? The word obviously meant something completely different to him than it did to me. His nihilistic and dismissive view of humanity is utterly alien to me. We may both call ourselves "atheist" but we have precious little in common.

And I'm sympathetic to Muslims who feel tired of having to speak out every time a group like IS rears its ugly head. Their peaceful behaviour should in itself be enough to assure us that they have as little in common with IS as I would have had with mr. Auvinen.

Palmach · 03-10-2014 1:03pm

rozeboosje wrote: »

Yes, but the same can be said about the Westboros, albeit that they're not as physically dangerous as people going around cutting other people's heads off. The sad thing is that the loud and obnoxious minorities will always steal the limelight.

This is moral equivalence rubbish. The Westboros are 23 members. So small as to be statistically zero. IS have many many followers. Thousands of fighters and followers if not millions. The Muslim Brotherhood 10s of millions. The extreme Hizb ut Tahrir 100s of thousands. Boko Haram, Al Shabab, Al Qaeda, the Talban, MILF and on and on. Head hacking cave dwellers might well be a minority in Islam but they are far from a tiny one.

And I'm sympathetic to Muslims who feel tired of having to speak out every time a group like IS rears its ugly head. Their peaceful behaviour should in itself be enough to assure us that they have as little in common with IS as I would have had with mr. Auvinen.

Except their religion is the problem. There are peaceful Muslims but the only way Muslims will ever tackle extremism is if they speak and challenge the extremists. The fact they don't do so very often tells me that deep down Muslims know the Koran and the life of their founder Mohammed were violent and intolerant. Hence where ever Sharia Law is in place these places are violent intolerant places.

alastair · 03-10-2014 1:06pm

Palmach wrote: »

There are peaceful Muslims but the only way Muslims will ever tackle extremism is if they speak and challenge the extremists. The fact they don't do so very often...

They don't? Oh wait...

rozeboosje · 03-10-2014 1:10pm

alastair wrote: »

They don't? Oh wait...

"what I can't be bothered to check out isn't happening"

rozeboosje · 03-10-2014 1:14pm

Palmach wrote: »

TThe Muslim Brotherhood 10s of millions.

Since that is an order of magnitude bigger than the other figures you pulled out of some dark place presented here, let me take that, and let me also be exceedingly generous and round that up to 100 million. That's a massive figure.

But since there are 1.5 billion Muslims (and again I'm being kind to you here, want to give you every chance in the world to make your figures as impressive as possible, but elsewhere I've seen people already talking about 1.6 rather than 1.5 billion Muslims) ..... that's less than 7% of all Muslims in the world.

Now explain again why you're throwing the other 93% on to the same heap?

rozeboosje · 03-10-2014 1:37pm

So let's see ... for comparison ...

In 2010, 15.5% of Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders and his club of racists. It's a shocking statistic. It bothers me, as I'm Dutch. But is "being Dutch" a problem, now? Should I be forced to redefine what it means to "be Dutch" so that it clearly excludes Geert and his party because, heaven forbid, some imbeciles who find it difficult to understand nuances and to whom every Dutchman looks alike would find it too difficult otherwise to make the distinction? Help me out here.

And let me add another interesting observation for good measure. 15.5% of Dutch people voted for Geert and his party. Are they ALL racists? Do they all fully understand and support what Geert and his party stand for? Or could it be perhaps - unimaginable as it may seem - that a lot of them voted for Geert and his party as a protest vote, without really understanding the implications or what the PVV actually stands for. Insert picture of pondering dinosaur here.

Palmach · 03-10-2014 2:06pm

rozeboosje wrote: »

So let's see ... for comparison ...

In 2010, 15.5% of Dutch people voted for Geert Wilders and his club of racists.

He is not a racist. He doesn't like Muslims but he isn't a racist. I can see I am dealing with a blinkered pc liberal who refuses to see reality. :mad:

rozeboosje · 03-10-2014 2:10pm

Palmach wrote: »

I can see I am dealing with a blinkered pc liberal who refuses to see reality. :mad:

I reject your reality and substitute my own

But yeah. I'm so terribly "PC" .... just look at my post 331. Pussyfooting around them, so I am. LOL

Palmach · 03-10-2014 2:54pm

alastair wrote: »

They don't? Oh wait...

Remember all those protest marches against Israel? Don't remember too many of the same people protesting against the Islamic State. Do you?

Palmach · 03-10-2014 2:58pm

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-overview/

Tiny minority...................yeah right.

alastair · 03-10-2014 3:26pm

Palmach wrote: »

Remember all those protest marches against Israel? Don't remember too many of the same people protesting against the Islamic State. Do you?

The same people? Can't vouch for individuals, but...

auckland_s_iraqi_community_protest_against_isis_1393792454.jpg

451311046-kashmir-shiite-muslims-shout-anti-isis-anti-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QVgUqv5t%2FbsopTciWfopY5e3qvdUWb%2FnAAspWJWuqqUl

Nodin · 03-10-2014 3:41pm

Palmach wrote: »

Remember all those protest marches against Israel? Don't remember too many of the same people protesting against the Islamic State. Do you?

As IS are being bombed, its a bit hard to see what they would be protesting for.

Palmach wrote: »

He is not a racist. He doesn't like Muslims but he isn't a racist.

"It [is] absolutely undesirable that Amsterdam has no less than 177 nationalities".

"If more people need to remain working for more years, the PVV thinks that the Turks and Moroccans should be the first ones: In the age of 55-64 less than 10% of them currently works. It is unacceptable to have working Dutchmen pay the bill for this, by making them work on until their 67th birthday, which even restricts the financial build-up of their pension."
http://www.watwilwilders.nl/indexEN.html

and
http://www.euractiv.com/sections/eu-elections-2014/wilders-election-strategy-shambles-after-racist-remarks-updated-301109

He's a vile article, to put it mildly.

rozeboosje · 03-10-2014 3:43pm

Nodin wrote: »

He's a vile article, to put it mildly.

Yeah - I didn't think that observation was even worth responding to....

Palmach · 03-10-2014 4:03pm

alastair wrote: »

The same people? Can't vouch for individuals, but...

Small isolated protests smaller than the protest over the cartoons.

alastair · 03-10-2014 4:05pm

Palmach wrote: »

Small isolated protests smaller than the protest over the cartoons.

You really weren't interested in standing over your claim, were you?

But then you reckon Wilders is not a racist, so critical thinking is clearly a challenge.

Nodin · 03-10-2014 4:31pm

Palmach wrote: »

Small isolated protests smaller than the protest over the cartoons.

Yeah, nothing going on at all

'Islamic State' is a slur on our faith, say leading Muslims
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/13/term-islamic-state-slur-faith-david-Cameron

"Muslim leaders have issued a fatwa condemning British jihadists. "
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/31/british-muslim-leaders-fatwa-jihadists-islamic-state-isis

"British Muslim scholars have made a direct video appeal to Islamist militants to release Alan Henning,whom they are threatening to behead, warning the killing would break Islamic laws."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/isis-muslim-scholars-call-release-alan-henning-hostage

AlekSmart · 04-10-2014 12:00am

Nodin wrote: »

Yeah, nothing going on at all

'Islamic State' is a slur on our faith, say leading Muslims
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/13/term-islamic-state-slur-faith-david-Cameron

"Muslim leaders have issued a fatwa condemning British jihadists. "
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/31/british-muslim-leaders-fatwa-jihadists-islamic-state-isis

"British Muslim scholars have made a direct video appeal to Islamist militants to release Alan Henning,whom they are threatening to behead, warning the killing would break Islamic laws."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/19/isis-muslim-scholars-call-release-alan-henning-hostage

Sadly it now appears that Alan Henning was beheaded earlier this evening....

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/alan-henning-beheading-isis-video-appears-to-show-murder-of-british-aid-worker-30636929.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/03/isis-alan-henning_n_5929248.html

Difficult indeed to know what any ordinary structured society can do to stop these guys now.....they have decided to directly confront both Western Civilization,and more importantly,Mainstream Islam,both entities now facing a very significant and difficult problem.

Whether to accomodate or exorcise Militantcy from their midst...is it even feasible at this stage ?

Palmach · 04-10-2014 11:10am

alastair wrote: »

You really weren't interested in standing over your claim, were you?

But then you reckon Wilders is not a racist, so critical thinking is clearly a challenge.

I note you ignored the Pew research findings. Uncomfortable reading? That IS and similar types are a minority I can agree with. That they are a tiny minority not inspired or related to Islam I can't. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

IS and Muslims with similar barbaric views will be an irrelevant footnote when they stop getting financial and other backing from Muslims around the world and that will only happen when ISIS type beliefs are really restricted to Westboro Baptist church sized congregations.

alastair · 04-10-2014 12:02pm

Palmach wrote: »

I note you ignored the Pew research findings. Uncomfortable reading?

Not at all. You do realise that Sharia courts exist in the UK, and the range of attitudes for where sharia should be applicable was all over the place in that study - as the headline makes clear. Even the most benign of parallel sharia domestic arbitration get included in the 'we want sharia' category.

Palmach wrote: »

IThat IS and similar types are a minority I can agree with. That they are a tiny minority not inspired or related to Islam I can't. http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

IS and Muslims with similar barbaric views will be an irrelevant footnote when they stop getting financial and other backing from Muslims around the world and that will only happen when ISIS type beliefs are really restricted to Westboro Baptist church sized congregations.

So, I guess you're finished with the pretence that the Muslim community haven't been protesting ISIS?
ISIS are essentially self-funded. They've control of gas and oil, and operate a lucrative protect racket - they don't need any financial backing from Muslims around the world. They did get funding from some wealthy Gulf figures when they were focused on fighting Bashar al-Assad's dictatorship, but that's back a couple of years. It's primarily locally-generated revenue they use now.

rozeboosje · 04-10-2014 12:07pm

Exactly. The Daesh Cutthroats have been able to finance themselves for a good while now.

Palmach · 04-10-2014 1:19pm

rozeboosje wrote: »

Exactly. The Daesh Cutthroats have been able to finance themselves for a good while now.

Except they were initially financed by outsiders.

Palmach · 04-10-2014 1:21pm

alastair wrote: »

Not at all. You do realise that Sharia courts exist in the UK, and the range of attitudes for where sharia should be applicable was all over the place in that study - as the headline makes clear. Even the most benign of parallel sharia domestic arbitration get included in the 'we want sharia' category.

There is nothing "benign" about Sharia. Especially if you are female. The Pew research talked about stoning for apostasy and adultery. Those in favour were far from a small minority.

So, I guess you're finished with the pretence that the Muslim community haven't been protesting ISIS?

Small scale protests nothing like those against the Gaza conflict or even the cartoon controversy.

alastair · 04-10-2014 1:22pm

Palmach wrote: »

Except they were initially financed by outsiders.

As were all the groups fighting Assad.

Palmach · 04-10-2014 1:25pm

rozeboosje wrote: »

Since that is an order of magnitude bigger than the other figures you pulled out of some dark place presented here, let me take that, and let me also be exceedingly generous and round that up to 100 million. That's a massive figure.

But since there are 1.5 billion Muslims (and again I'm being kind to you here, want to give you every chance in the world to make your figures as impressive as possible, but elsewhere I've seen people already talking about 1.6 rather than 1.5 billion Muslims) ..... that's less than 7% of all Muslims in the world.

Now explain again why you're throwing the other 93% on to the same heap?

Only 7%. Shur what could go wrong. By the way here are some numbers. http://anarabcitizen.blogspot.ie/2012/02/do-we-finally-know-how-many-members-are.html

http://www.newstatesman.com/node/148823

But hey if you are happy in you cappuccino liberal pc bubble far be it for me to allow reality to intrude.

Palmach · 04-10-2014 1:25pm

alastair wrote: »

As were all the groups fighting Assad.

Some groups were not that fanatic. Many were. The many who were got more funding. I wonder why?

alastair · 04-10-2014 1:29pm

Palmach wrote: »

There is nothing "benign" about Sharia. Especially if you are female. The Pew research talked about stoning for apostasy and adultery. Those in favour were far from a small minority.

And as the headline makes clear, there's wide division about the degree of applicability of sharia. As to the business of whether you can have benign sharia courts or not, well the sharia courts in the UK, Canada etc, are voluntary arrangements, with recourse to civil law if the participants are unhappy with the court's decisions, so there's hardly much to get excited about there. Simply rolling sharia out as a catch-all bogieman is rather simplistic - even if you don't care for any aspect of the religion, or it's record of misogyny.

Palmach wrote: »

Small scale protests nothing like those against the Gaza conflict or even the cartoon controversy.

So what? You claimed to have seen none. The protests against Israeli actions in Gaza weren't' limited to Muslims in any case, so why pretend there should be equally large protests from one religious community?

alastair · 04-10-2014 1:30pm

Palmach wrote: »

Some groups were not that fanatic. Many were. The many who were got more funding. I wonder why?

No doubt you have a nefarious reason in mind? But by any account, they were the most effective at fighting Assad's forces, so that might be a consideration.

Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

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