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M17/M18 - Gort to Tuam [open to traffic]

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    #1562
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,919 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    hearing contract to be signed before christmas, but no intention to start work until 2015

    Am more inclined to believe the Minister for State.


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    #1563
    Ascii
    Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭Ascii


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Yeah, this & NX/N11 were issued years ago.



    There are a lot of roadbridge foremen working the project.


    For what I'm hearing from the guys working the N5, no they don't.


    There are NO Roadbridge formen working on the N5 Ballaghaderreen Bypass that I can confirm


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    #1564
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Ascii wrote: »
    There are NO Roadbridge formen working on the N5 Ballaghaderreen Bypass that I can confirm

    You won't mind telling us your source, since I was told the opposite by two guys working the project over the summer.


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    #1565
    tonc76
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭tonc76


    antoobrien wrote: »
    You won't mind telling us your source, since I was told the opposite by two guys working the project over the summer.

    Are the foremen subbed into Wills Bros from Roadbridge?


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    #1566
    Ascii
    Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭Ascii


    All Wills foremen are their own direct employees and have been for years. Know a few of them.


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    #1567
    annfield1978
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    Design to start in new year with construction not due to commence until 2015


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    #1568
    glineli
    Registered Users Posts: 1,098 ✭✭✭glineli


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    Design to start in new year with construction not due to commence until 2015

    is the design not conplete already? Seems crazy signing a contract and not starting for 18 months


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    #1569
    f2
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭f2


    its a design and build project, i would expect the project to be designed, maybe a few tweeks left but i think the original tender would have involved a design of the road


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    #1570
    tonc76
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭tonc76


    A preliminary design would have been carried out in order to price the scheme but detailed design is a different animal altogether. I wouldn't expect detailed design to begun until the contract is signed.


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    #1571
    tonc76
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭tonc76


    A preliminary design would have been carried out in order to price the scheme but detailed design is a different animal altogether. I wouldn't expect detailed design to begun until the contract is signed.


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    #1572
    notharrypotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,112 ✭✭✭notharrypotter


    its a design and build project, i would expect the project to be designed, maybe a few tweeks left but i think the original tender would have involved a design of the road

    I thought that all new projects were such that the complete specification was published.

    This way all tenders would be comparable as they used the same datum.
    I wouldn't expect detailed design to begun until the contract is signed.

    This seems to be at variance with this.

    I believed that the new methodology was to gear us towards a "fixed price" contract with no hidden surprises.

    Rumor and the dogs in the street/common knowledge indicate historically some bids would be low knowing/hoping to find some unforeseen issue from the spec/tender and cause the cash to roll in.


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    #1573
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    Design to start in new year with construction not due to commence until 2015
    Please give a source for information that contradicts the official line, otherwise it's hard to evaluate how true it is.


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    #1574
    sonnyblack
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭sonnyblack


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Please give a source for information that contradicts the official line, otherwise it's hard to evaluate how true it is.

    I worked on a schools PPP in the last few years. Once Financial close was acheived and contracts were signed, construction works began immediately. I'd expect Gort/Tuam to be similar to Newlands Cross /Arklow Rathnew. If the contracts are signed pre-Christmas then construction will begin after Christmas IMO.


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    #1575
    curiousjay
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭curiousjay


    antoobrien wrote: »
    The contract is being held up because the foremen Roadbridge need to get started are all (still) working on the Ballaghaderreen Bypass. Also we're getting into the very short days - sunrise is 8am, sunset 6.43 pm today - meaning less usable time (hence less overtime) and it's hard to do much in the way of setting up compounds & earthmoving in the dark.

    Builders are loathe to start working this time of the year because of these kinds of issues.

    It'll have to start in spring as there may be issues with birds nesting.

    I'd imagine that the locals will also remember the government promised us that the road would be underway by now in the elections next year.



    I work on the N5 job. There are no Roadbridge foremen here. Your sources are liars and presumably having a laugh at you. As for dark evenings they are using these ingenious little things called lights. With just a flick of a switch you can illuminate an area in front of you. If you tell your sources to contact the Wills foremen they might be able to get them a contact for the supplier of these light things.


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    #1576
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    curiousjay wrote: »
    There are no Roadbridge foremen here. Your sources are liars and presumably having a laugh at you.

    Yeah that's been repeated several times. While I don't expect anyone to believe me, but I do expect a small bit of common courtesy, especially considering the followup post to that:

    antoobrien wrote: »
    I was talking to one of the guys who drives a dump truck on the N5 scheme over the summer, he told me at the time about the foremen not being available until christmas back then. I don't like writing stuff that can't be confirmed (after all this is my mate said), but since then I've heard it from two other sources that work on the N5 project was well.

    I don't mind being wrong, but I do mind unsubstantiated sources (like yours) being claimed as fact.
    curiousjay wrote: »
    As for dark evenings they are using these ingenious little things called lights.

    So let me get this straight, you are suggesting that the project should light an area of about 12 sq. km.
    curiousjay wrote: »
    I work on the N5 job.

    What time are you guys working until in the evenings?


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    #1577
    macker16
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭macker16


    till 6 by flood light .:D


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    #1578
    annfield1978
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    sonnyblack wrote: »
    I worked on a schools PPP in the last few years. Once Financial close was achieved and contracts were signed, construction works began immediately. I'd expect Gort/Tuam to be similar to Newlands Cross /Arklow Rathnew. If the contracts are signed pre-Christmas then construction will begin after Christmas IMO.[/QUOTE


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    #1579
    annfield1978
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    f2 wrote: »
    its a design and build project, i would expect the project to be designed, maybe a few tweeks left but i think the original tender would have involved a design of the road


    tender design and detailed design two completely different beasts


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    #1580
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    not due to commence until new year
    Is that the road or the detailed design ?


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    #1581
    annfield1978
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Is that the road or the detailed design ?

    detailed design


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    #1582
    f2
    Registered Users Posts: 231 ✭✭f2


    There is a design for the road, tender design cant be much be much different to detailed design, if it is how did they manage to tender for it in the first place? The council have a design of the road also, I have spoken to council engineers and they can tell me road heights etc. ground conditions vary considerably towards the Tuam end and its expected that fill will be brought from the Athenry side for the Tuam end <that also puts an end to the Tuam policiticans hopes of getting the Tuam bypass built first>, I dont believe that there is much difference between tender and detailed design, certainly not enough to hold up starting the project for 12 months after contracts are signed!


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    #1583
    annfield1978
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    to be fair, local authority engineers aren't the best people to talk to when it comes to tender design and detailed design, its true that the tender design geometry wise is pretty much fixed as the CPO is in place and the road has to fit within this, the time is taken up in detailed modelling of junctions, roundabouts, line markings, safety barriers, lighting, structures designs, independent structure checks, utility diverisons, drainage, culverts, attenuation, earthworks design, preparation of schedules, specification, road safety audits, reviews by the employer's representative etc etc

    No doubt you are keen to see the road open asap, but I would take politician sound bites with a pinch of salt. I am only passing on what I know in terms of the timelines and construction is along way off, but things can change rapidy


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    #1584
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    to be fair, local authority engineers aren't the best people to talk to when it comes to tender design and detailed design, its true that the tender design geometry wise is pretty much fixed as the CPO is in place and the road has to fit within this, the time is taken up in detailed modelling of junctions, roundabouts, line markings, safety barriers, lighting, structures designs, independent structure checks, utility diverisons, drainage, culverts, attenuation, earthworks design, preparation of schedules, specification, road safety audits, reviews by the employer's representative etc etc

    No doubt you are keen to see the road open asap, but I would take politician sound bites with a pinch of salt. I am only passing on what I know in terms of the timelines and construction is along way off, but things can change rapidy

    Forgive us if we take your opinion with a pinch of salt because that is all part of the tender. There is no further "detailed design" to be done that is not included in the proposed timeline of 3.5 years total construction - which is in line with previous projects of this scale.

    From the tender documentation:
    The Authority wishes to invite companies to tender on a design, build, finance and operate basis for the N17/ N18 Gort to Tuam PPP Scheme (the “PPP Project”).

    BAM were kicked off because they couldn't finance it.

    The direct route consortium have done design & build projects before that don't require one year to get boots on the ground, so where are you getting your propaganda out of?


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    #1585
    annfield1978
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    Its clear you are not an Engineer involved in the delivery of Road Schemes, so I will let you discount my advice.


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    #1586
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    Its clear you are not an Engineer involved in the delivery of Road Schemes, so I will let you discount my advice.

    And you've not given any reasons as to why this project would be any different from any of the projects that have been progressed over the past few years, including the NX/N11 project.

    It's not as if the route isn't known, the points where the new road will roads that will have to be diverted aren't known.

    You know all the work we've seen happen pretty soon after the announcement of contracts in other projects.


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    #1587
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,954 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    Its clear you are not an Engineer involved in the delivery of Road Schemes, so I will let you discount my advice.

    Your advice is being take with a pinch of salt as none of the many previous design and build road schemes has had a delay of over a year between contract signing and construction start.


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    #1588
    annfield1978
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    Don't shoot the messenger chaps, I am only passing on what I have been told, I am not the Contractor of which there are four parties so I don't know what the strategy is on their programme.


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    #1589
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    Don't shoot the messenger chaps, I am only passing on what I have been told, I am not the Contractor of which there are four parties so I don't know what the strategy is on their programme.

    I'll ask you the question again, what makes this project different from NX, which has construction ongoing less than 6 months from contract award?


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    #1590
    tonc76
    Registered Users Posts: 1,336 ✭✭✭tonc76


    There is a lead in time for detailed design which will not commence until the contract has been signed, and while not 12 months I would estimate 3/4 months. No design organisation is going to begin the detailed design until the contract has been signed as they are not in the business of working for free.

    Tender design & detailed design = 2 different animals


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    #1591
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    tonc76 wrote: »
    Tender design & detailed design = 2 different animals

    I don't recall anybody saying that they are.

    But that still doesn't explain why we are being fed a line that, based on what we can see happening on NX/N11 & N5 both of which had construction under way less than 6 months after contract award, is spurious.


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