"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

foggy_lad · 28-08-2013 12:41pm

cdebru wrote: »

Flat fare city wide €2 for leap card €3 for cash kids fares half that no need for tag off.

A simpler ticket machine no stages, no confusion less fare evasion, a real incentive to move to leap card, shorter dwell times.

What about outer suburban fares? €2 out to Ballyknockan on the 65 or as short a journey as out to Heuston on the 145?

cdebru · 28-08-2013 12:51pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

What about outer suburban fares? €2 out to Ballyknockan on the 65 or as short a journey as out to Heuston on the 145?

If you want to keep it simple, that is as simple as it comes. But if you wanted you could add a euro for outer suburban, but most people on those journeys are already on prepaid tickets so paying much less than the cash fare as it is.

markpb · 28-08-2013 1:03pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

What about outer suburban fares? €2 out to Ballyknockan on the 65 or as short a journey as out to Heuston on the 145?

LA Metro bus charges a flat fare of $1.50 for all routes. Their longest route is almost 50km. If they can manage a flat fare in a city that size, it's not incomprehensible that Dublin could do the same. There would be massive resistance to it at first though.

bk · 28-08-2013 1:19pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Wouldn't be too useful for stops which serve multiple routes, unless it has a way of connecting to the bus next to it, in order to know how much to credit back to the user.

When you tag-on, the tag-on location would be recorded on the leap card. So when you tag-off at the RTPI pole, it would read the tag-on location and work out the distance travelled and thus the refund due.

What bus route you actually took would be irrelevant. Remember I'm suggesting this in conjunction with per km charging.

foggy_lad wrote: »

What about outer suburban fares? €2 out to Ballyknockan on the 65 or as short a journey as out to Heuston on the 145?

Keep it simple and it will work well.

cdebru wrote: »

Flat fare city wide €2 for leap card €3 for cash kids fares half that no need for tag off.

A simpler ticket machine no stages, no confusion less fare evasion, a real incentive to move to leap card, shorter dwell times.

I agree such a system is very attractive and I would be supportive of it.

However I believe flat fare would be less attractive then tag-on/tag-off per km charging:

- Flat fares don't take into account how far you travel, you will end up with people on Joe Duffy complaining that someone going 1km is paying the same as someone going 12km.

Per km charging would be seen as fairer as you pay for what you use.

- Flat fare system like this doesn't take into account integration. One person might be going 12km across the city on just one bus and pay €2, while another person might only go 6km across the city but need to take two buses and gets penalised and ends up paying €4

Per km charging system like in Amsterdam solves this problem. You pay for the distance you travel, no matter the number of buses, trams or metros you take. A person pays the same for 12km weither they took just one bus or three.

- A flat fare system might risk reduced revenue to Dublin Bus. A per km system would make it easier to model the revenue intake to match the current stage system.

- A flat fare system on the bus, but tag-on/tag-off system on DART and Luas might cause confusion and goes against the idea of simplification. tag-on/tag-off per km charging across bus, luas and dart would be much simpler.

- A flat fare on the bus, might jeopardise some DART and LUAS services. For instance it would become much cheaper to take the number 7 bus to Dun Laoghaire then the DART. Perhaps leading to overcrowding on the bus.

Per km charging would negate this effect.

Flat fares made sense before the days of contactless cards and GPS. Per km charging wasn't possible in the past. But with modern technologies it is easily doable and I believe is the best system.

Dravokivich · 28-08-2013 1:53pm

bk wrote: »

When you tag-on, the tag-on location would be recorded on the leap card. So when you tag-off at the RTPI pole, it would read the tag-on location and work out the distance travelled and thus the refund due.

What bus route you actually took would be irrelevant. Remember I'm suggesting this in conjunction with per km charging.

I get that, but bus routes aren't as the crow flies. And stops shared by multiple bus routes, don't always follow the same line of traffic either. So if to be done at a fixed point off, it needs to know both where the journey started and the bus route it went. In order to determine that, it may need to be able to identify the Bus depending on the amount of info transferred onto the card for each event.

It's easy for Irish Rail and Luas to implement On/Off as it's going in 1 of 2 defined directions. But a localised Touch Off point that can service multiple Touch On points from multiple directions, needs a way to be able to determine it for certain per Bus Route.

Anyway, it's pretty much a moot point until Dublin Bus state that RTPI is going to be setup at all current stops.

markpb · 28-08-2013 2:12pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

I get that, but bus routes aren't as the crow flies. And stops shared by multiple bus routes, don't always follow the same line of traffic either. So if to be done at a fixed point off, it needs to know both where the journey started and the bus route it went. In order to determine that, it may need to be able to identify the Bus depending on the amount of info transferred onto the card for each event.

You could argue that passengers go from a to b and don't care how the bus gets there. Why should they pay extra just because the bus took a tour of Dublin, they haven't benefited from it.

LXFlyer · 28-08-2013 2:14pm

Again I would need to emphasise whatever fare model is adopted, then the revenue impact of the change needs to be neutral for the operator.

The Government ain't going to pick up the can for any shortfall.

As for different bus routes going to from one stop to another via different routes, by and large the existing fare stage system accounts for that in such a way so that the fare remains the same.

For example route 46a and 47 use exactly the same number of stages to get to Nutley Lane from the city centre yet take completely different routes.

bk · 28-08-2013 2:14pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

I get that, but bus routes aren't as the crow flies. And stops shared by multiple bus routes, don't always follow the same line of traffic either. So if to be done at a fixed point off, it needs to know both where the journey started and the bus route it went. In order to determine that, it may need to be able to identify the Bus depending on the amount of info transferred onto the card for each event.

Would be easy to record both the tag-on location and the route on the card and use both of these pieces of information to calculate the fare.

Dravokivich wrote: »

Anyway, it's pretty much a moot point until Dublin Bus state that RTPI is going to be setup at all current stops.

No, it would only be needed at busy locations, like the city center. You would tag-off on the bus while getting off the bus at other locations.

To be honest it is a moot point as Leap validators weren't added to the RTPI poles and are unlikely to be retrofitted now.

But all of this is a distraction to my overall point. I believe that even purely on bus tag-on/tag-off, even with single door buses, would be quicker then the current driver interaction set up.

bk · 28-08-2013 2:18pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Again I would need to emphasise whatever fare model is adopted, then the revenue impact of the change needs to be neutral for the operator.

LOL I was expecting you to be along at any moment to say this!

This is partly why I now prefer tag-on/tag-off per km ticketing. It most closely fits the current DB stage fare model, while giving us all the advantages of modern technology of reduced dwell times, simplification, allow drivers to focus on driving and truly integrated multi-modal travel. All while protecting DB's precious fare box.

The per km charge can be increased or decreased to ensure the fare revenue remains the same.

LXFlyer · 28-08-2013 2:22pm

bk wrote: »

LOL I was expecting you to be along at any moment to say this!

This is partly why I now prefer tag-on/tag-off per km ticketing. It most closely fits the current DB stage fare model, while giving us all the advantages of modern technology of reduced dwell times, simplification, allow drivers to focus on driving and truly integrated multi-modal travel. All while protecting DB's precious fare box.

The per km charge can be increased or decreased to ensure the fare revenue remains the same.

People have to be constantly reminded of it - they get all sorts of fanciful ideas!

The service has to be paid for, and the government are not showing any will to increase their contribution, so therefore whatever system is chosen has to be revenue neutral so that the operators are not losing out.

bk · 28-08-2013 3:06pm

lxflyer wrote: »

People have to be constantly reminded of it - they get all sorts of fanciful ideas!

The service has to be paid for, and the government are not showing any will to increase their contribution, so therefore whatever system is chosen has to be revenue neutral so that the operators are not losing out.

Yes but you also need to be constantly reminded that a simpler, easier to use ticketing system, which reduces dwell time and thus significantly improves journey time will attract more passengers and thus more income.

Also a lower ticket price also has the very strong possibility of increasing passenger numbers and thus income.

DB approach of constantly increasing ticket prices has been shown to be a failure, all it does is lead to less people using their service.

LXFlyer · 28-08-2013 3:17pm

Look I already know that the NTA and DB (from their fare determinations) are planning to simplify the fare system by 2015.

That is a given - so telling me that it has to be done is sort of irrelevant.

However the fact remains someone has to pay for the service.

Simplifying the fare system alone is frankly not going to magically produce huge numbers of new passengers.

cdebru · 28-08-2013 3:41pm

bk wrote: »

When you tag-on, the tag-on location would be recorded on the leap card. So when you tag-off at the RTPI pole, it would read the tag-on location and work out the distance travelled and thus the refund due.

What bus route you actually took would be irrelevant. Remember I'm suggesting this in conjunction with per km charging.

Keep it simple and it will work well.

I agree such a system is very attractive and I would be supportive of it.

However I believe flat fare would be less attractive then tag-on/tag-off per km charging:

- Flat fares don't take into account how far you travel, you will end up with people on Joe Duffy complaining that someone going 1km is paying the same as someone going 12km.

Per km charging would be seen as fairer as you pay for what you use.

- Flat fare system like this doesn't take into account integration. One person might be going 12km across the city on just one bus and pay €2, while another person might only go 6km across the city but need to take two buses and gets penalised and ends up paying €4

Per km charging system like in Amsterdam solves this problem. You pay for the distance you travel, no matter the number of buses, trams or metros you take. A person pays the same for 12km weither they took just one bus or three.

- A flat fare system might risk reduced revenue to Dublin Bus. A per km system would make it easier to model the revenue intake to match the current stage system.

- A flat fare system on the bus, but tag-on/tag-off system on DART and Luas might cause confusion and goes against the idea of simplification. tag-on/tag-off per km charging across bus, luas and dart would be much simpler.

- A flat fare on the bus, might jeopardise some DART and LUAS services. For instance it would become much cheaper to take the number 7 bus to Dun Laoghaire then the DART. Perhaps leading to overcrowding on the bus.

Per km charging would negate this effect.

Flat fares made sense before the days of contactless cards and GPS. Per km charging wasn't possible in the past. But with modern technologies it is easily doable and I believe is the best system.

I accept that there would be winners and losers, but that is also true under the current stage fare system.
A time based tag on would get you over the problem of people connecting similar to the travel90 tickets and the already planned cap say 6 euro both would be a further incentive to get people onto leap or prepaid tickets.

The per kilometre is better but more difficult and costly to implement, as well as not being very transparent and how would you implement it for cash customers ?

jimmycrackcorm · 28-08-2013 4:48pm

As the Leap Card uses NFC, it would be nice to be able to have an app that would allow you to read and credit your balance (via online purchase) using your phone NFC link

bk · 28-08-2013 6:04pm

cdebru wrote: »

The per kilometre is better but more difficult and costly to implement, as well as not being very transparent and how would you implement it for cash customers ?

It wouldn't be costly to implement, all the technology to make this work is in place *, Leap contactless cards, validators and GPS/RTPI.

* Well the underpowered Dublin Bus ticket machines might be an issue, but I think they need to be replaced in either case.

For cash customers you don't implement it, instead you have a high cash flat fare e.g. €3 This is the way it works in Amsterdam and only tourists pay the cash fare, everyone else uses their Leap card.

cdebru · 28-08-2013 6:24pm

bk wrote: »

It wouldn't be costly to implement, all the technology to make this work is in place *, Leap contactless cards, validators and GPS/RTPI.

* Well the underpowered Dublin Bus ticket machines might be an issue, but I think they need to be replaced in either case.

For cash customers you don't implement it, instead you have a high cash flat fare e.g. €3 This is the way it works in Amsterdam and only tourists pay the cash fare, everyone else uses their Leap card.

You would realistically need tag off points at bus stops, otherwise you would seriously affect dwell times particularly at peak times at busy stops.

Then there is the issue of buses that don't take the same route but end at the same place or rejoin further up the road eg 27 and 15 the 27 does a tour around coolock before rejoining at the UCI / odeon.

bk · 29-08-2013 12:06am

cdebru wrote: »

You would realistically need tag off points at bus stops, otherwise you would seriously affect dwell times particularly at peak times at busy stops.

I believe tag-on/tag-off even on single door buses would be significantly faster then the current driver interaction.

Victor · 30-08-2013 12:35am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Wow Victor....That really is some timeline for an industry priding itself on speed of response ?

Part of the problem was people spending time looking at the cap amount.

coylemj · 30-08-2013 1:11am

bk wrote: »

I believe tag-on/tag-off even on single door buses would be significantly faster then the current driver interaction.

I wouldn't put any money on that! I was sitting downstairs on a bus recently and observed a lady who got on with a large bag, inside which was a handbag and inside the handbag was her purse which contained her Leap Card. Just imagine trying to get off the bus behind her if she had to tag off!

It never occurred to her while standing in the queue at the bus stop to have the card ready for the driver so why would she bother having it ready when getting off the bus? Lest anyone think that's a sexist rant, on the same bus I saw a bloke get on and fumble with coins for almost as long as the lady with the multiple bags. Sometimes you wonder if technology will ever get around plain old-fashioned stupidity, laziness and lack of consideration for others.

bk · 30-08-2013 1:18am

coylemj wrote: »

I wouldn't put any money on that! I was sitting downstairs on a bus recently and observed a lady who got on with a large bag, inside which was a handbag and inside the handbag was her purse which contained her Leap Card. Just imagine trying to get off the bus behind her if she had to tag off!

Yet somehow such systems miraculously work in mainland Europe!

Probably because such a man/woman would be physically pushed off the bus for such stupid messing around. S/he wouldn't do it a second time.

Sometimes in Ireland we are just too accepting of such nonsense!

AlekSmart · 30-08-2013 11:13am

bk wrote: »

Yet somehow such systems miraculously work in mainland Europe!

Probably because such a man/woman would be physically pushed off the bus for such stupid messing around. S/he wouldn't do it a second time.

Sometimes in Ireland we are just too accepting of such nonsense!

It may well be due to our obsession with always wanting to cover the bases,but as a people we do have an aversion to simple,direct and unambiguous regulation.

Public Transport is one area where unambiguity is a pre-requisite to effective operation,yet in my own case I stare at a Ticket Machine Screen containing 16 seperate Fare Classifications,including what should be the most popular,The City Centre Fare,buried deep within a series of key-strokes and menu pages...Who in the name of good sense thought this up ?

Fred Swanson · 31-08-2013 1:48am

This post has been deleted.

Aard · 31-08-2013 7:51am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Used my leap card for the first time today on DB. I have to say the whole experience is far from fast. Also how do you know when to remove the card from the drivers machine?

You don't. That's the fun of it.

markpb · 31-08-2013 8:20am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

A little green light will appear on the panel in front of you, beside the screen showing your current balance. I'm told there's a beep or tone of some kind but I've never heard it.

31-08-2013 11:17am

markpb wrote: »

A little green light will appear on the panel in front of you, beside the screen showing your current balance. I'm told there's a beep or tone of some kind but I've never heard it.

I have heard the beep before but it's more often that I don't.

AlekSmart · 31-08-2013 11:34am

Karsini wrote: »

I have heard the beep before but it's more often that I don't.

Quite correct...

What the proprietors of Leap/BAC do not appear to have an understanding of is Human Behaviour....

The Leap Customer upon presentation of their card is subconciously awaiting immediate confirmation of their transaction,it should occur without them having to peer into a small angled two-line LCD display...A Short audible Beep accompanied by a green flashing LED will do just that.

When these signals do not occur (>50% of transactions

) the Leap Customer then defaults into Uncertainty mode..ie: an unwanted pause whilst peering into the display accompanied by a need to look to the Driver for confirmation.....multiply this by two,to account for a similar reaction from the Driver and you will rapidly accumulate a vast amount of Dwell Time per stop.

That absent Tone and Flashing Light ARE as much an integral part of the entire ITS system as the LeapCard itself....but the proprietors of the current ITS appear to believe it's customers can defy Human Instinct,and can be modified to alter their behaviour patterns to suit it's dubious competence level ?

Add to this scenario,a Wayfarer freeze caused by a remote validator presentation issue,along with the newly arrived Cash Fare Delay feature (Causing the issue of double cash fare tickets),multiply it by a peak vehicle turn-out of 900+ units,and we have a Nightmare Scenario for any ordinary Public Transport system....

But,NOT ours for some reason...

For us,It's "Carry on folks,Nothing wrong at all,at all,at alll...etc etc.."...

Anybody reading Victors earlier post must surely be asking some questions as to how in a supposedly high end I.T. environment the response time-line can be deemed acceptable....

Victor : I mentioned to the NTA the problem Alek was having on 20 June and again on 1 July. It was investigated 3 July. I re-raised the issue on 15 August. The next day I was told what the identified problems were. On 26 August, I was informed there was a software patch that is being tested this week. If successful, it will then be rolled out across the fleet.

A delay of over 2 MONTHS to commence addressing a major,and widespread flaw in the ITS system after having a member of the public,raise and then re-raise it appears to me to indicate a serious problem with how the ITS system's priorities are arranged.

At NO point have the NTA/ITS proprietors even acknowledged the,by now embarrasingly visible issue,even a simple admission and a,"We're working on it",might have given some comfort to Leapcard Customers and BAC Operational Staff alike.

It now seems that Brian (Plan B ?) Cowen was headhunted by the NTA to take control of the ITS programme.

foggy_lad · 31-08-2013 1:23pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

It now seems that Brian (Plan B ?) Cowen was headhunted by the NTA to take control of the ITS programme.

Give it a shlap of a hurl, that'll sort it out, it is the Irish way.

Victor · 02-09-2013 10:56pm

What were peoples' experiences today?

Stevek101 · 03-09-2013 12:44am

I'm finding it hangs sometimes however, if you take the card off it appears fine then. Replacing the card the second time after the Wayfarer goes back to default it seems to work instantly...

Mr Simpson · 03-09-2013 1:17pm

Victor wrote: »

What were peoples' experiences today?

Not as slow, still quite slow changing menus though. I've used it 3 times today, definitely some improvement

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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