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Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Was'nt too long ago oul wans were knocking around Ireland wearing headscarves. Although that's because they were kept too busy to be worrying about their barnet

    These muslims should be allowed wear it in the photo so long as they have the hijab grafted to their hair. lets test peoples commitment to this premise


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Not respecting ones region and identity is a form of fascism. People shouls have the freedom to follow whatever religion they wish to and identify themselves with it if they wish to without any objections from the state. Its protecting the persons basic rights and freedom.

    No it isn't.

    So if a Muslim wishes to murder another former-Muslim for apostasy, should we respect that?

    If a Christian wishes to kill their neighbour for working on Sunday, should we respect that?

    Religion isn't something that can automatically command respect I'm afraid. I respect the right of someone to have religious beliefs - but I will treat each belief individually as to whether or not I respect it personally.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Get them off


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Stark wrote: »
    Asking them to get it out is akin to asking an Irish woman to show more cleavage when having her photo taken.

    I see no harm so tbh


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    token101 wrote: »
    This should be a secular process. Sick of listening to us pander to this sh*t. It's common f*cking sense. I wouldn't be allowed to come in wearing a paddy hat. What if I happened to believe some stupid sh*t that without my hat I'd be committing mortal sin? Are we going to start pandering to me? Just because there's a lot of them, it doesn't mean that society has to start pandering to people with daft beliefs. If you don't want to take your headscarf off, then you're not getting the card. Simple as. Same rules for everyone, regardless of colour, race, religion, etc.

    this, beliefs shouldnt be pandered to, end of story.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Gevie Stee


    It's mad that in their country we'd have to wear a head scarf and follow their rules, yet in our country they refuse to abide by our rules.
    Why do we even let this happen, like the way people are trying to get the catholic religion out of schools and the angelas off RTE, I'm not religious myself but why should this country change what they've always done. When in Rome............


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    There is no law, regulation, ruling, directive, instruction, brief, just NOTHING against women covering their hair for religious reasons.

    If you decide to cover your hair nobody can even ask you whether it's for religious reasons as that in itself is discriminatory.

    Like I said - they can wear whatever they want in a personal capacity. But if they are required to remove it for a photo ID - then they should remove it. As I understand, in this case - they were not and it was a mix-up. But as a general rule of thumb, I believe that everyone should have the same rights a privileges irrespective of their religion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    People shouls have the freedom to follow whatever religion they wish to and identify themselves with it if they wish to without any objections from the state. Its protecting the persons basic rights and freedom.
    How is a request to momentarily remove a headscarf for a photo in contravention of any of the above? :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Stark wrote: »
    Normally I'd be against pandering to religions, but these women have been brought up to see a woman's hair the way we would see woman's breasts and other private parts. Asking them to get it out is akin to asking an Irish woman to show more cleavage when having her photo taken.

    which in itself is ridiculous, pandering to a mysoginistic religion shouldnt be encouraged. know your place girls, dont have your hair on show for fear of sending the men into a frenzy.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,053 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    krudler wrote: »
    which in itself is ridiculous, pandering to a mysoginistic religion shouldnt be encouraged. know your place girls, dont have your hair on show for fear of sending the men into a frenzy.

    I think all negative attitudes towards the human body are ridiculous. But we're hardly in a position ourselves to criticise when the mere sight of a nipple is apparently enough to scar a Western child for life. Cultural attitudes towards nudity vary and Ireland itself is probably more conservative than some places. Topless sunbathing is frowned upon here for example whereas no-one blinks an eyelid in France. Asking an Irish woman to walk around half naked as soon as she moves to France just isn't going to work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,293 ✭✭✭✭Mint Sauce


    irish-stew wrote: »
    Are they requried to remove their head scarf for a passport photo?
    No.
    No.

    source: Department of Foreign Affairs.

    http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=257

    LOL. So a legal documant, that is generally accepted worldwide, regardless of the country of origin allows it.

    But for a national card in our own country its not.

    Got to love the identity laws sometimes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Not respecting ones region and identity is a form of fascism. People shouls have the freedom to follow whatever religion they wish to and identify themselves with it if they wish to without any objections from the state. Its protecting the persons basic rights and freedom.
    Bollox.

    These woman can do whatever the fook they want but when the are having the photo taken for their garda i.d. they should take their headgear off. This can be done in a private booth or only in the company of a female officer. Once the photo is taken, the headgear can be replaced. None of their rights have been breached, in fact they are being given the honor and privilege of being given official state documents giving them legal status and protection, they should be bloody delighted!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    The fact that someone would even invoke the word 'fascism' in a discussion like this is shocking. Typical badgering in a perfectly reasoned discussion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭St.Spodo


    Your religion does not make you exempt from legal procedure. Personally, I believe tolerance is fine and to be encouraged, but it shouldn't extend to pandering to people personal beliefs. The laws of the country should be the same for everyone.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 237 ✭✭Traditional


    the women are made wear them , and cant drive in certain countries , sarcosy in france sorted them out due to the fact that it was been forced on them .


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    the women are made wear them , and cant drive in certain countries , sarcosy in france sorted them out due to the fact that it was been forced on them .

    god finds women drivers offensive, or something.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Gevie Stee


    St.Spodo wrote: »
    Your religion does not make you exempt from legal procedure. Personally, I believe tolerance is fine and to be encouraged, but it shouldn't extend to pandering to people personal beliefs. The laws of the country should be the same for everyone.

    Exactly


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    dlofnep wrote: »
    The fact that someone would even invoke the word 'fascism' in a discussion like this is shocking. Typical badgering in a perfectly reasoned discussion.
    It's like the "Ireland is a dictatorship" nonsense - undermines the actual reality of these things.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    If I went to an arab country that required me by law to wear a hijab (or a niqab, which I think is the full face version), I'd have to wear it (end of) or leave the country. Here, we ask that they take it off for 5 seconds to have a photo taken and the rest of the time they can dress as they will. A big fuss was made and now they get to keep their hair coverings on for photos. Having one set of rules for them and another for everybody else is simply ridiculous, and hinders Ireland from becoming an egalitarian society.
    We are grateful for this prompt response. This is the inclusive Ireland that we are proud to be part of.

    Of course it is, because it suits them very well not to have to comply with the normal laws of the land.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Dudess wrote: »
    It's like the "Ireland is a dictatorship" nonsense - undermines the actual reality of these things.

    Yup, and an actual insult to anyone who lived up a real fascist government.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭kincsem


    I'm wondering if they have an ID card showing them without hair covered would they only want to show their ID to a female Garda if asked for ID? That would be reasonable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    Stark wrote: »
    Normally I'd be against pandering to religions, but these women have been brought up to see a woman's hair the way we would see woman's breasts and other private parts. Asking them to get it out is akin to asking an Irish woman to show more cleavage when having her photo taken.

    Well get over it or don't come here. If something happening in a certain place offends you that much, don't go there. That's the reason I don't go to Saudi on my holidays. We shouldn't be making unreasonable compromises for Islam or any other religion. This is an unreasonable compromise. What you do in your own home is your business. Wear the niqab in the shower for all I care. But in public and when interacting with others, you go by Irish law, which dictates that ID has to show the full face, uncovered hair, on a white background. No ifs, buts or maybes. And if you don't like that, go somewhere else.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    Dudess wrote: »
    How is a request to momentarily remove a headscarf for a photo in contravention of any of the above? :confused:

    Because there is no need for it. They identify themselves with the hijab and wear it whenever they're outside. If any gard ever stops them on the street and ask for the id card would the gard then have to ask the woman to take off her hijab because its not on her id?
    Her passport which is the legally accepted document of identity worldwide has her picture of her with her hijab on. Why should she be required to take it off when she's here?

    Its nothing more than xenophobia. Just because a handful of people believe the hijab is a ridiculous practice, women who follow it should be stripped of it for some vague legal reason.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    If I went to an arab country that required me by law to wear a hijab (or a niqab, which I think is the full face version), I'd have to wear it (end of) or leave the country. Here, we ask that they take it off for 5 seconds to have a photo taken and the rest of the time they can dress as they will. A big fuss was made and now they get to keep their hair coverings on for photos. Having one set of rules for them and another for everybody else is simply ridiculous, and hinders Ireland from becoming an egalitarian society.



    Of course it is, because it suits them very well not to have to comply with the normal laws of the land.

    You're not asking them to take it off for 5 seconds. You are asking them to take it off so a picture can be taken and put on your national ID. Its the same as asking a woman to take a topless photo to stick on their passport.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    You're not asking them to take it off for 5 seconds. You are asking them to take it off so a picture can be taken and put on your national ID. Its the same as asking a woman to take a topless photo to stick on their passport.

    It's really really not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 256 ✭✭Statistician


    when in rome.....

    In Ireland we still have a few rights left.
    These people should retain their religious freedom.

    What upsets me is that the government is determined to erode our civil liberties with their big brother style data collection.


  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 11,172 Mod ✭✭✭✭MarkR




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    It's really really not.

    Why? If they believe that their hair is intimate then what is the difference?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Gevie Stee


    You're not asking them to take it off for 5 seconds. You are asking them to take it off so a picture can be taken and put on your national ID. Its the same as asking a woman to take a topless photo to stick on their passport.

    Ridiculous argument! :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭MaxSteele


    The sheer audacity of foreign nationals to dare question our laws based on f***ing silly religious grounds is insulting and pretty childish if you ask me. This politically correct, islamo-pandering should not be tolerated. Take off the bloody scarf for a measly ten seconds please and be thankful you had the privilege to come and live here in the first place. :mad:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    It's really really not.

    For them it is akin to that. If you believe thats ridiculous, its your believe. People have a right for their identity to be respected.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,271 ✭✭✭✭johngalway


    If they don't like it they're free to go back to where they came from. I'm sure they're freer and have more opportunities there anyway, f'sake :rolleyes:

    I have nothing against anyone but I despise this PC pandering BS.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Gevie Stee


    For them it is akin to that. If you believe thats ridiculous, its your believe. People have a right for their identity to be respected.

    So do I as a woman have the right to go to their country and not wear a headscarf?? Since it's my belief that it's derogatory to women?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭Nothingbetter2d


    if they dont like our laws they can fcuk off back to the desert from which they came.


  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Unavailable for Comment


    Gevie Stee wrote: »
    So do I as a woman have the right to go to their country and not wear a headscarf?? Since it's my belief that it's derogatory to women?

    What about Irish Muslims women? It's the same rules for the passport photos.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Gevie Stee


    What about Irish Muslims women? It's the same rules for the passport photos.

    Answer my question first?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Gevie Stee wrote: »
    So do I as a woman have the right to go to their country and not wear a headscarf?? Since it's my belief that it's derogatory to women?

    no, you'll send the men into a raping frenzy with your whorish ways you hussy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Because there is no need for it. They identify themselves with the hijab and wear it whenever they're outside. If any gard ever stops them on the street and ask for the id card would the gard then have to ask the woman to take off her hijab because its not on her id?
    Her passport which is the legally accepted document of identity worldwide has her picture of her with her hijab on. Why should she be required to take it off when she's here?

    Its nothing more than xenophobia. Just because a handful of people believe the hijab is a ridiculous practice, women who follow it should be stripped of it for some vague legal reason.
    This is something I dont get, how can any right minded person think that having people with full face coverings in a passport photo is a good idea? Just because it has been accepted practice up to now does not mean the Irish state should continue to unquestioningly tow the line - IT MAKES NO SENSE AND COMPLETELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF AN ID PHOTO. Why bother with the photo at all? Scrap the whole photo system and any time a garda or immigration officer stops a woman in full headgear, bring them to the nearest station and do the biometric checks and then send her on her way. Is that more acceptable?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    Gevie Stee wrote: »
    So do I as a woman have the right to go to their country and not wear a headscarf?? Since it's my belief that it's derogatory to women?

    Yes you do. If another country doesn't respect that is their problem.
    People here like to bang on about freedom and rights and bla bla bla but when it comes to issues like this it suddenly becomes acceptable to reject a person's religious identity and freedom.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,165 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Gevie Stee wrote: »
    So do I as a woman have the right to go to their country and not wear a headscarf?? Since it's my belief that it's derogatory to women?

    You probably do have the right not to, but the natives would be mightily upset, and probably give you the evil eye or worse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Unavailable for Comment


    Gevie Stee wrote: »
    Answer my question first?

    Ok. you wouldn't be allowed but surely the repressive nature of some countries is not a reason for Ireland to become more repressive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Yes you do. If another country doesn't respect that its teor problem.
    People here like to bang on about freedom and rights and bla bla bla but when it comes to issues like this it suddenly becomes acceptable to reject a person's religious identity and freedom.

    I asked you a question earlier, and you still haven't responded. I will ask again.

    Should we respect the religious freedom allowing a Muslim to murder a former-Muslim for apostasy?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Gyalist


    Would an Orthodox Jewish woman have to remove her wig for her photo I.D? Would an Orthodox Jewish man have to remove his yarmulke, or a Sikh his turban?

    Clearly not, according to DFA. As the hijab is a hair covering and not a face covering they are entitled to wear it. I can't see what the fuss is all about.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 8,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fluorescence


    For them it is akin to that. If you believe thats ridiculous, its your believe. People have a right for their identity to be respected.

    If I claimed tomorrow to be a new convert to Islam and wandered into a Garda station to get my new passport application signed and stamped (along with my new picture of myself in a hijab), they would laugh me out of the place and tell me to get a "proper" picture that adheres to the regulations.

    Just because these women come from another culture, doesn't mean they should have an automatic immunity to our regulations when they come here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,166 ✭✭✭enda1


    Why? If they believe that their hair is intimate then what is the difference?

    If you go to a nudist resort you'll have to go in the nip. Just to expand on your point.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Gyalist


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I asked you a question earlier, and you still haven't responded. I will ask again.

    Should we respect the religious freedom allowing a Muslim to murder a former-Muslim for apostasy?

    Murder is against the law of the land, wearing a hair covering isn't.


  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Unavailable for Comment


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Should we respect the religious freedom allowing a Muslim to murder a former-Muslim for apostasy?

    That's a ridiculous comparison.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    Why? If they believe that their hair is intimate then what is the difference?

    They don't believe it's intimate. They believe that covering it is modest. Muslim women don't equate the hair on their heads to their girly bits.

    This is supposed to be a secular state, and personally I think anyone's religious perferences/dictates should take second place to that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,822 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I asked you a question earlier, and you still haven't responded. I will ask again.

    Should we respect the religious freedom allowing a Muslim to murder a former-Muslim for apostasy?

    No we shouldn't. When the religious freedom imposes on other people it should not be tolerated. the wearing of a headscarf for a photo does not impose on anyone else.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,418 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    This is something I dont get, how can any right minded person think that having people with full face coverings in a passport photo is a good idea? Just because it has been accepted practice up to know does not mean the Irish state should continue to unquestioningly tow the line - IT MAKES NO SENSE AND COMPLETELY DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF AN ID PHOTO. Why bother with the photo at all? Scrap the whole photo system and any time a garda or immigration officer stops a woman in full headgear, bring them to the nearest station and do the biometric checks and then send her on her way. Is that more acceptable?

    I thought it was just the hijab, that does not cover the face.


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