Does Ireland need an army?

belacqua_ · 17-11-2011 11:07am

Delancey wrote: »

Internal security ? Nothing a well-equipped Gendarmerie couldn't handle.

Gendarmeries are a Napoleonic relic, an anachronism, in almost every country where one exists there are calls for it to be amalgamated with the national police force or reintegrated into the army (from whom they take their orders from in any case). Can you imagine the whinging there'd be if we had two police forces.

OS119 · 17-11-2011 11:15am

belacqua_ wrote: »

It's not invasion I'd be particularly concerned about, anyone that's lived through the troubles and has seen the army deployed as an aid to the civil power should have the sense to see that we need protecting from ourselves. Remove the Irish army and watch as a certain unofficial national army fills the vacuum.

there's a very good logic to that - indeed one could well argure that even in WW2, the Irish governments biggest concern was internal insurection, and framed all of its other policies around mitigating that threat.

however, a rather frightening statistic rears its ugly head with relation to civil disorder/terrorism in the north: in 1972, the worst year of the troubles (by deaths/incidents/headlines etc..) about 30% or so of the population were deeply unhappy with the society in which they lived, but perhaps only 30% of those actually joined the IRA, or threw bricks, or rattled dustbin lids, or did anything that caused/enabled civil disorder. yet in order to attempt to maintain/impose civil order, the government of the day put more than 15,000 police officers, and 25,000 soldiers on the streets, and still they failed to bring order. a security establishment of well over 100,000 men was required to field that force for more than a few months, and it continued for years.

my point is that a repitition of 1972 scale disorder/violence (and we may as well go for worst case scenario's - thats what Armies are for) would require an astonishing amount of manpower to contain/put down (perhaps 10 times the current military strength of the Republic?) and that its worth thinking seriously about whether a new 32 county Republic with a population of approximately 6 million could begin to cope with that kind of demand.

Bannasidhe · 17-11-2011 12:32pm

Isabella Incalculable Bridle wrote: »

OK we have a day off, yes I admit it.

We get a full day off when there's not a soul working in the entire defence forces.

In fact, its tomorrow.. We lock up all the loaded weapons (because we don't get paid for handling empty weapons after all) away, throw the lock on the gates and we all head off for a rest... Oh, time for this little whore > :rolleyes:

Do you not realize how the stupidity in what your posting?.

"the army day off", indeed :pac:

I misunderstood - they are called Army Holidays. As it was explained to me those who are 'on duties' remain - the rest have the day off. This happens several times a year. So what proportion are actually 'on duties' and what proportion get a paid day off?

And really - if the rolleyes, veiled and outright insults and sarcasm are the best arguments you can come up with in a debate I hope your military skills are of a higher standard

.

Bannasidhe · 17-11-2011 12:52pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Not agreeing with the poster you're replying to but have you read any? I think you'll find Henry II was invited here and it wasn't 1000 years ago.

Not quite. 1166 Henry II was asked for military support to help McMurchada regain Leinster. H II gave permission to McM to recruit from among his subjects. McM got the support of Strongbow, de Lacy and the Geraldine Marchers Lords in Wales.
Henry II finally arrived in Ireland in 1171 to force his vassal lords to swear fealty as it looked as if Strongbow may declare himself king of Leinster and make a bid for the high kingship. Henry declared himself Lord of Ireland - but made it clear that this referred only to areas under the control of his subjects - not the whole island.

This was confirmed in the 1175 Treaty of Windsor - Ua Conchobhair was confirmed as High King of Gaelic Ireland while Henry was Lord of the Norman areas. It must be admitted that de Lacy broke the Treaty before the ink was even dried but without the permission of Henry II.

In 1177 Henry's youngest son John was made Lord of (Norman) Ireland - the evidence suggests that Henry never envisioned John becoming the king of England and that he planned for the Lordship of Ireland to remain separate from the crown of England.

None of this has anything to do with why Ireland now needs a large standing army.

Sorry for going off topic MODS - but only trying to clear up the historical inaccuracies previously posted before it hares off into a '800 years of British oppression' tangent.

JustinDee · 17-11-2011 1:06pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sorry for going off topic MODS - but only trying to clear up the historical inaccuracies previously posted before it hares off into a '800 years of British oppression' tangent.

Thats exactly why I posted on it. The eternal-victim woe-betide-me line does my scone in.
Thanks for clarifying further.

Fratton Fred · 17-11-2011 5:01pm

OS119 wrote: »

i disagree with this in its assertion that only 'soldiers doing peacekeeping' is a way of Ireland doing good in the world/meeting its obligations for two reasons - firstly that the UN does not lack for soldiers trained and equipped to Irish standards and who are allowed to operate in the types of missions that the Irish Army is deployed on, and secondly that what the UN really needs is well trained policemen who governments allow to be seconded to 'nation building' UN missions.

if we're really talking about keeping an Army of 8,500 in business to supply 500 not-really-needed troops to UNPK ops then something has gone very wrong indeed.

far more valuable to the UN would be 500 well trained policemen, able both to bring order to chaos, and to train/develop the police/justice systems in countries that don't have them.

the problem with the Army is that it is so out of kilter with the rest of Irelands defence posture - Ireland could field, for a short time, an all-arms Brigade battlegroup that could almost rival anything a NATO country could provide, yet Ireland could not clear a single mine from Cork harbour, or intercept a single strike aircraft flying over Dublin.

personally, i would scrap the Army - i'd invest on the things Irelands defence actually needs, maritime and air power, and a vastly larger and more capable Gardai that can do all the 'aid to the civil power' tasks that everyone elses police forces do every day of the week, and use it to benefit the public in Ireland and abroad in the form of police aid in nation building.

OK, coppers not soldiers, either way Ireland is keeping some form of credible international presence and, I guess, does it without the expense.

A "Consultant" on newstalk yesterday mentioned providing a solution that was able to deal with extreme violence and kept the Gardai gun free which I think is a good idea.

I completely understand the rest of what you are saying. In my limited vocabulary I would say it is time to piss or get off the pot.

deise go deo · 17-11-2011 7:22pm

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Getting rid of the Army would be quite foolish, Ireland like all states has an obligation to contribute to International Stability, shirking this responcibility would do nothing for our relations with our international trading partners who would have to foot the bill for our immaturity.

There is still a subversive threat on this Island, it is of course much reduced at present, but allowing our army to become as run down as it was in 1969, or worse getting rid of it all together will be a very regretable decision when the next security crisis arises. You can't snap your fingers and have an army when ever you want one, once the skill sets are lost from a military organisation it can take decades to rebuild them to a professional standard.

The Defence Forces also delivers a number of very Important Services.

The Aid to the Civil Power function, which includes cash escort, Explocive Ordinance disposal, Prisoner Transport, Gaurd on High Risk Prisons, and helping to deal with emergencies that come up from time to time, Flooding, snow etc, Is a very important role, and one which is more importantly dilivered very cost effectivly.
Of course it would be possible for all of these services to be done by other organisations, but in most cases they would be much more expencive and far less efficient, the basic soldiers pay is well behind his average Civil Service counterpart, the soldier has no Union representing them, and they can't ever go on strike.

pragmatic1 · 17-11-2011 7:40pm

ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »

would this not leave ireland absolutly screwed if an someone was to invade tho? I mean come on people we would be invaded if there was a world war going on and it was decided by a warring country that ireland would be a good base to attack britain, didnt hitler have some sort of plan like this btw?

It aint the Irish army that prevents this country from getting invaded. Almost any other army in the industrialised world could if the only resistance was the Irish army.

tayto lover · 17-11-2011 7:53pm

I hope someone does invade us as they might bail us out. BUT wait a minute did we not already become the property of Germany and France ?

Judgement Day · 17-11-2011 8:36pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Getting rid of the Army would be quite foolish, Ireland like all states has an obligation to contribute to International Stability, shirking this responcibility would do nothing for our relations with our international trading partners who would have to foot the bill for our immaturity.

There is still a subversive threat on this Island, it is of course much reduced at present, but allowing our army to become as run down as it was in 1969, or worse getting rid of it all together will be a very regretable decision when the next security crisis arises. You can't snap your fingers and have an army when ever you want one, once the skill sets are lost from a military organisation it can take decades to rebuild them to a professional standard.

The Defence Forces also delivers a number of very Important Services.

The Aid to the Civil Power function, which includes cash escort, Explocive Ordinance disposal, Prisoner Transport, Gaurd on High Risk Prisons, and helping to deal with emergencies that come up from time to time, Flooding, snow etc, Is a very important role, and one which is more importantly dilivered very cost effectivly.
Of course it would be possible for all of these services to be done by other organisations, but in most cases they would be much more expencive and far less efficient, the basic soldiers pay is well behind his average Civil Service counterpart, the soldier has no Union representing them, and they can't ever go on strike.

Given that Ireland does nothing to cause International instability I can't see why it is under any obligation to contribute towards International stability but, as I already stated, a beefed up Garda service could be used to provide Ireland's obligations to the UN. The Gardai were deployed to Namibia in 1989 see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na

As for your point about providing cash escorts - isn't this at the very heart of the problem? While our armed forces are out peace keeping in Africa and the Middle East our very democracy is under threat from criminals and subversives and clearly the Gardai are not sufficiently resourced to finally and permanently end the problem. I find it incredible that in 2011, on a small island, with a miniscule population that the forces of the State can't deal with the criminal gangs waging war against the people but that is the subject for another thread.

As for union representation, what about PDFORRA? http://www.pdforra.ie/

Poccington · 17-11-2011 8:53pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

As for union representation, what about PDFORRA? http://www.pdforra.ie/

PDFORRA is a representative association, it doesn't have union status.

So with the likes of SIPTU etc. when they're dealing with the Government, they can threaten strike actions etc. PDFORRA don't have that kind of power. They can very easily be told by the Government to get back in their box if they lose the run of themselves.

Quite rightly of course, the DF is an organisation that quite simply can't have a union or be in a position where it can go on strike.

trendyvicar · 17-11-2011 10:46pm

All The Republic needs is a good quality police force and perhaps a coast guard of some sort to keep drugs out (unless it's thought better to legalise drugs?). Yes, there's always going to be cranks going about claiming to be the true government of Ireland, but providing there is adequate powers available to deal with these types of lunatics, it's a manageable task. Ireland is incapable of doing anything internationally that anyone else cares about, so that's irrelevant.

Time to wind up The Irish Army.

firemansam4 · 17-11-2011 10:49pm

NinjaK wrote: »

We were invaded for 1000 years, we should be the first people on earth with a strong army. Have you read any Irish history or are you even Irish?

Sorry but that is the most stupid comment on here yet, how on earth in these times could we come close to affording a strong army for such a small nation, and for a threat that doesn't even exist.
What my knowledge of Irish history is does not change that fact. You really need to get realistic about what you comment on

shadowninty · 17-11-2011 10:55pm

Iceland doesnt need an army, but they are a member of NATO. Ireland also has like 10 times its population. I dont think our army does anything that couldnt be done by the Gards other then peacekeeping abroad

dodgydes · 18-11-2011 1:11am

shadowninty wrote: »

... I dont think our army does anything that couldnt be done by the Gards other then peacekeeping abroad

Wrong!

caseyann · 18-11-2011 1:17am

trendyvicar wrote: »

All The Republic needs is a good quality police force and perhaps a coast guard of some sort to keep drugs out (unless it's thought better to legalise drugs?). Yes, there's always going to be cranks going about claiming to be the true government of Ireland, but providing there is adequate powers available to deal with these types of lunatics, it's a manageable task. Ireland is incapable of doing anything internationally that anyone else cares about, so that's irrelevant.

Time to wind up The Irish Army.[/QUOTE]
Tell that to their wives and families and the dole queues :rolleyes::rolleyes:
So people who have made a choice to have a career in the army should no longer have that choice because you people want to cut them off.:rolleyes:
God the snobbery on this thread and downright disregard for the people who lose their jobs and livelihood is disgraceful.
When the big snow last year many of you would have been breaking your bloody necks if not for them army out clearing paths and roads etc..

Evade · 18-11-2011 1:55am

I think I see the problem, it's the name. A lot of detractors seem to focus on the DF's lack of ability to defend against a traditional military threat.

Change the name but keep the rest as it is.

Border-Rat · 18-11-2011 2:33am

Judgement Day wrote: »

In the light of all the fuss about Willie Penrose's resignation over the closure of Mullingar army barracks isn't it about time that the elephant in the room is finally dealt with - why does Ireland need an army at all? Given that Ireland has no offensive capability (submarines/missiles/air or sea power) and no means to defend itself against serious external aggression, what is the point?

Ireland has far too many barracks most of which owe their existence to the Britain's need to control Ireland. Latterly these barracks served as recruiting and training facilities to service the needs of the British Empire but today they are an anachronism.

Since the IRA gave up its campaign there's even less reason to retain a standing army. It could be argued that Ireland needs an army to fulfill its obligations to UN peace keeping but even that is fallacious as we could contribute by supplying members of the Gardai. Perhaps a paramilitary Garda force would be a much better use of resources and the manpower numbers could be greatly reduced and barracks disposed with. I'm not trying to play devil's advocate but I do think a debate on the future of the Irish army is long overdue.

The IRA is still in existence and prepared for eventualities. Re: If they wanted, they could do more damage than the RIRA has done in 14 years in a few hours. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded or misinformed.

OS119 · 18-11-2011 9:40am

Evade wrote: »

Change the name but keep the rest as it is.

to what purpose?

you propose to spend €1bn a year on a direct labour organisation to clear snow, drive tractors during floods, and put out forest fires?

Evade · 18-11-2011 2:27pm

OS119 wrote: »

to what purpose?

you propose to spend €1bn a year on a direct labour organisation to clear snow, drive tractors during floods, and put out forest fires?

I actually can't imagine splitting the DF's duties between other organisations would cost much less than the €700million or so euro the DF gets.

I'm open to correction but isn't the highest single expenditure after wages fuel costs for the Navy? If they were changed to a civilian or AGS coast guard tomorrow those fuel cost would still be there.

trendyvicar · 18-11-2011 3:06pm

caseyann wrote: »

trendyvicar wrote: »

All The Republic needs is a good quality police force and perhaps a coast guard of some sort to keep drugs out (unless it's thought better to legalise drugs?). Yes, there's always going to be cranks going about claiming to be the true government of Ireland, but providing there is adequate powers available to deal with these types of lunatics, it's a manageable task. Ireland is incapable of doing anything internationally that anyone else cares about, so that's irrelevant.

Time to wind up The Irish Army.[/QUOTE]
Tell that to their wives and families and the dole queues :rolleyes::rolleyes:
So people who have made a choice to have a career in the army should no longer have that choice because you people want to cut them off.:rolleyes:
God the snobbery on this thread and downright disregard for the people who lose their jobs and livelihood is disgraceful.
When the big snow last year many of you would have been breaking your bloody necks if not for them army out clearing paths and roads etc..

So, you see the Irish army as a job creation scheme? Bizarre.

Disband The Irish Army and use it as an example to the rest of the world as a symbol of peace and goodwill. You could even invite other warring factions to it's wind up ceremony - such as The Israelis and Palestinians and inspire them to make peace.

As for clearing the snow, why not import cheap labour from say Africa to do that job? Or perhaps pay school kids to do it?

trendyvicar · 18-11-2011 3:10pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

The IRA is still in existence and prepared for eventualities. Re: If they wanted, they could do more damage than the RIRA has done in 14 years in a few hours. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded or misinformed.

You'd better pass that info on to Peter Robinson and The DUP - those mugs are under the impression that PIRA has disarmed and completely demilitarised - in fact, that's why they're sharing power with SF.

caseyann · 18-11-2011 3:23pm

trendyvicar wrote: »

So, you see the Irish army as a job creation scheme? Bizarre.

Disband The Irish Army and use it as an example to the rest of the world as a symbol of peace and goodwill. You could even invite other warring factions to it's wind up ceremony - such as The Israelis and Palestinians and inspire them to make peace.

As for clearing the snow, why not import cheap labour from say Africa to do that job? Or perhaps pay school kids to do it?

Seriously what?

Border-Rat · 18-11-2011 4:53pm

trendyvicar wrote: »

You'd better pass that info on to Peter Robinson and The DUP - those mugs are under the impression that PIRA has disarmed and completely demilitarised - in fact, that's why they're sharing power with SF.

I'm sure the DUP, MI5, PSNI and Irish intelligence are all aware of it. In fact, the first I heard of it was from a Gardai report in 2008.

junder · 18-11-2011 5:09pm

Border-Rat wrote: »

trendyvicar wrote: »

You'd better pass that info on to Peter Robinson and The DUP - those mugs are under the impression that PIRA has disarmed and completely demilitarised - in fact, that's why they're sharing power with SF.

I'm sure the DUP, MI5, PSNI and Irish intelligence are all aware of it. In fact, the first I heard of it was from a Gardai report in 2008.

So you believe the pira has not decommissioned then?

Skeewa · 19-11-2011 1:05pm

Look the argument is do we really need an army and the answer is no.... Forget about conscription the fact is that we are neutral and our defence force would not be able to defend us from an external agressor if one existed... Jane defence weekly does not rate the Irish army/ PDF at all... Their assessment of the PDF (permanent defence force) is that they would only slow down an invading army at best but could never hope to stop them... In reality it would be over in a matter of hours... Anyway I think the discussion about been invaded is bull**** anyway. Who would invade us? There is a better chance of us been invaded from mars.. Maybe we should equip an army of leprechauns in case we're attacked by hordes of war mongering pixies... Find better uses for these resources and redeploy the personnel to other duties... We will not be invaded and even if we were we couldn't do anything to stop it so lets stop pretending we have an army and grow up!!!!

guinnessdrinker · 19-11-2011 1:15pm

Skeewa wrote: »

Look the argument is do we really need an army and the answer is no.... Forget about conscription the fact is that we are neutral and our defence force would not be able to defend us from an external agressor if one existed... Jane defence weekly does not rate the Irish army/ PDF at all... Their assessment of the PDF (permanent defence force) is that they would only slow down an invading army at best but could never hope to stop them... In reality it would be over in a matter of hours... Anyway I think the discussion about been invaded is bull**** anyway. Who would invade us? There is a better chance of us been invaded from mars.. Maybe we should equip an army of leprechauns in case we're attacked by hordes of war mongering pixies... Find better uses for these resources and redeploy the personnel to other duties... We will not be invaded and even if we were we couldn't do anything to stop it so lets stop pretending we have an army and grow up!!!!

The argument that the army could not stop an invading force is a total non argument in the first place.

If there was a threat of invasion we would of course have a much larger standing army. There has not been any treat of invasion since WWII hence the current very small size of the army.

shadowninty · 19-11-2011 1:43pm

Ireland isn't exactly neutral, seeing as how we are in the EU and happy to have US planes stop over here

trendyvicar · 19-11-2011 2:38pm

shadowninty wrote: »

Ireland isn't exactly neutral, seeing as how we are in the EU and happy to have US planes stop over here

Exactly. The Republic is ruled financially by Europe (doesn't even have it's own currency) and if there's anything The US wanted Ireland to do then Ireland would have to do it, or else face America's wrath. Ireland's a joke, full of fools who think they're part of an independent nation.

shadowninty · 19-11-2011 3:11pm

Ireland isn't *ruled* by Europe per se, we aren't some sort of colony. Don't be so dramatic

Does Ireland need an army?

Comments