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Does Ireland need an army?

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  • 15-11-2011 7:04pm
    #1
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭


    In the light of all the fuss about Willie Penrose's resignation over the closure of Mullingar army barracks isn't it about time that the elephant in the room is finally dealt with - why does Ireland need an army at all? Given that Ireland has no offensive capability (submarines/missiles/air or sea power) and no means to defend itself against serious external aggression, what is the point?

    Ireland has far too many barracks most of which owe their existence to the Britain's need to control Ireland. Latterly these barracks served as recruiting and training facilities to service the needs of the British Empire but today they are an anachronism.

    Since the IRA gave up its campaign there's even less reason to retain a standing army. It could be argued that Ireland needs an army to fulfill its obligations to UN peace keeping but even that is fallacious as we could contribute by supplying members of the Gardai. Perhaps a paramilitary Garda force would be a much better use of resources and the manpower numbers could be greatly reduced and barracks disposed with. I'm not trying to play devil's advocate but I do think a debate on the future of the Irish army is long overdue.


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    #2
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #3
    NinjaK
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 963 ✭✭✭NinjaK


    Dumb question. Its the same as asking does the UK need an army?
    Now more than ever we need an army.


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    #4
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    I dont think paramilitary police forces work out very well and i'd hate to see the Gardai made into one.

    I'd imagine a larger RDF and smalle PDF will be the route thats taken in regard to the army in the coming decades and may be a better solution but one i personally wouldn't like to see.


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    #5
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    NinjaK wrote: »
    Dumb question. Its the same as asking does the UK need an army?
    Now more than ever we need an army.

    Why? There are no similarities between the UK and Ireland whatsoever. The UK is part of the NATO military alliance and has the power to defend itself against external aggression. Ireland is a neutral country with no military commitments apart from UN peace keeping.


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    #6
    ITS_A_BADGER
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭ITS_A_BADGER


    would this not leave ireland absolutly screwed if an someone was to invade tho? I mean come on people we would be invaded if there was a world war going on and it was decided by a warring country that ireland would be a good base to attack britain, didnt hitler have some sort of plan like this btw?


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    #7
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    I dont think paramilitary police forces work out very well and i'd hate to see the Gardai made into one.

    I guess it would only expose it's 'paramilitary teeth' in the face of an existential threat to our sovereignty.

    I don't see much need for an army because there's not much here anyone would invade for.

    I agree with the OP unless a good argument can be made against it.


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    #8
    AlmightyDublin
    Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭AlmightyDublin


    ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »
    would this not leave ireland absolutly screwed if an someone was to invade tho? I mean come on people we would be invaded if there was a world war going on and it was decided by a warring country that ireland would be a good base to attack britain, didnt hitler have some sort of plan like this btw?
    Yep the Nazis had plans to invade Ireland at the same time as England but the conflict with Russia to the east interrupted it


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    #9
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    We could save a large amount of money if we would abolish the Army and the Department of Defence with it - and be as peaceful and neutral as we always pretend to be.The Navel service and the Aer corps could be amalgamated into a new and strengthened Coast guard, which could also have some land-based units. It should be governed by a restored dept of the marine, which should also get responsibility for Fishing and Natural Resources. And finally we could have an even better Police force maybe even a paramilitary force. So in my opinion we dont need an Army as in the one we have now,


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    #10
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    The Army should be smaller and we really need only a small few barracks maybe one per province but if the Army was to be reduced the Navy should be increased.


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    #11
    AlmightyDublin
    Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭AlmightyDublin


    realies wrote: »
    We could save a large amount of money if we would abolish the Army and the Department of Defence with it - and be as peaceful and neutral as we always pretend to be.The Navel service and the Aer corps could be amalgamated into a new and strengthened Coast guard, which could also have some land-based units. It should be governed by a restored dept of the marine, which should also get responsibility for Fishing and Natural Resources. And finally we could have an even better Police force maybe even a paramilitary force. So in my opinion we dont need an Army as in the one we have now,
    What about a bomb scare? Who'd deal with it?


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    #12
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    NinjaK wrote: »
    Dumb question. Its the same as asking does the UK need an army?
    Now more than ever we need an army.


    Our Chief of Staff gets more money than his counterpart in the UK, why is that :confused:


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    #13
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »
    would this not leave ireland absolutly screwed if an someone was to invade tho? I mean come on people we would be invaded if there was a world war going on and it was decided by a warring country that ireland would be a good base to attack britain, didnt hitler have some sort of plan like this btw?

    No other army bar the US maybe could get anywhere close to Ireland without the British catching wind of it and I don't think the British would allow any army invade Ireland as a staging post to wage war on Britain.


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    #14
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Almighty Dublin wrote: »
    What about a bomb scare? Who'd deal with it?


    We could train and arm a paramilitary police force which in reality would amagalte the specialist units from the Army into a proper well equipped police force.


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    #15
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    AlmightyDublin wrote: »
    What about a bomb scare? Who'd deal with it?

    The SWAT division of the police.


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    #16
    AlmightyDublin
    Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭AlmightyDublin


    realies wrote: »
    Almighty Dublin wrote: »
    What about a bomb scare? Who'd deal with it?


    We could train and arm a paramilitary police force which in reality would amagalte the specialist units from the Army into a proper well equipped police force.
    Or an Anders Bering Brevik style attack? (god forbid)


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    #17
    AlmightyDublin
    Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭AlmightyDublin


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    AlmightyDublin wrote: »
    What about a bomb scare? Who'd deal with it?

    The SWAT division of the police.
    What about an Anders Bering Brevik style attack? (god forbid)


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    #18
    NinjaK
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 963 ✭✭✭NinjaK


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Why? There are no similarities between the UK and Ireland whatsoever.

    They are both independent states, there one.


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    #19
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Almighty Dublin wrote: »
    Or an Anders Bering Breivik style attack? (god forbid)


    What could or would an Army do against them sort of attacks,What could or would an Army do against a terrorist attack, nothing as Armys are not used for them sort of attacks.


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    #20
    Noffles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Noffles


    You don't need an army as you're conveniently neutral, you have nothing to defend, the place is a bankrupt kip and sure doesn't everyone love the Irish... begorra and all that!


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    #21
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    NinjaK wrote: »
    Dumb question. Its the same as asking does the UK need an army?
    Now more than ever we need an army.
    Dumb answer! The British military in alliance with the US have been engaged in two major wars in the last decade. Whether the wars are justified or not is another matter but being involved of course Britain is required to invest heavily in it's military. Don't be so ridiculous!


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    #22
    filthymcnasty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 644 ✭✭✭filthymcnasty


    Several countries/dependencies manage without one:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces

    I think we should maintain an army but agree with the closing down of some barracks where they are not really needed.

    Regarding the Mullingar closure there was a woman on Six-one news just now whose only argument seemed to be they had had a presence in the town for two hundred years-but so what?

    She also said that now some of the soldiers would now have to buy cars to commute to Athlone. FFS


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    #23
    CarrickMcJoe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭CarrickMcJoe


    I agree with the OP but keep it quiet aboout the IRA giving up the campaign as the army still get their border allowance!


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    #24
    ITS_A_BADGER
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭ITS_A_BADGER


    charlemont wrote: »
    No other army bar the US maybe could get anywhere close to Ireland without the British catching wind of it and I don't think the British would allow any army invade Ireland as a staging post to wage war on Britain.

    bullcrap, i dont think we should rely on the british to protect us, sure they might take action if we were invaded but what about when an invasion is happening and the british take a while to get organised to send soldiers etc over here? i know its not exactly a long way away but still


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    #25
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    filthymcnasty wrote: »
    Several countries/dependencies manage without one:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_without_armed_forces

    I think we should maintain an army but agree with the closing down of some barracks where they are not really needed.

    Regarding the Mullingar closure there was a woman on Six-one news just now whose only argument seemed to be they had had a presence in the town for two hundred years-but so what?

    She also said that now some of the soldiers would now have to buy cars to commute to Athlone. FFS
    Yeah this is just another example, like the people who did the sit in at the travel shop, of people thinking the recession doesn't apply to them. It's not like they're losing their jobs. Brats of the highest order.


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    #26
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Noffles wrote: »
    the place is a bankrupt kip and sure doesn't everyone love the Irish... begorra and all that!

    I presume you're not Irish - what wonderful land with a blemish-less history do you herald from then?


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    #27
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »
    bullcrap, i don't think we should rely on the british to protect us, sure they might take action if we were invaded but what about when an invasion is happening and the british take a while to get organised to send soldiers etc over here? i know its not exactly a long way away but still


    But the reality of it is Ireland faces no aerial or land threat of any kind and is protected by default by Nato - spending hundreds of millions of euro to combat a non-existent threat, for the sake of national pride, just seems stupid.Re invasion as it mostly would come from air and the first question is obviously "who would be launching an air attack on us?" Because if they were coming from the east, they'd have to get through incredibly well defended NATO airspace in Europe, and if they were coming from the west they'd have to get past the USAF before they got to attack little old Ireland. And I think we can assume that we're not going to be attacked by either the Yanks or our EU partners in the foreseeable future, so its best that we don't spend squillions and squillions planning for it.:o Unless the lads in downing street have some new plans,it wouldn't be the first time eh:o


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    #28
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    Noffles wrote: »
    You don't need an army as you're conveniently neutral, you have nothing to defend, the place is a bankrupt kip and sure doesn't everyone love the Irish... begorra and all that!


    The question is do we really need an Army and at what cost,

    Re something to defend we have a country where most people who live here would only be to happy and courageous in its defence as has been seen by our history,Dont take our little debates as a weakness in our love for our country.


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    #29
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    im with kevin myers on this one , not only do we need an army like any other mature grown up nation , we need an airforce , presently we rely on our neighbours good will , hardly an ideal arrangement


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    #30
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    ITS_A_BADGER wrote: »
    bullcrap, i dont think we should rely on the british to protect us, sure they might take action if we were invaded but what about when an invasion is happening and the british take a while to get organised to send soldiers etc over here? i know its not exactly a long way away but still

    You obviously know nothing about modern warfare - this isn't the era of the Spanish Armada or 1798 for that matter. RAF fighters would be scrambled at the first hint of a 'mythical' invasion fleet appearing off the Irish coast. Where would they be coming from anyway - Atlantis? :D


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    #31
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    im with kevin myers on this one , not only do we need an army like any other mature grown up nation , we need an airforce , presently we rely on our neighbours good will , hardly an ideal arrangement

    Come off it, even before the death of the Celtic Slug we couldn't have afforded the sort of expenditure that would be needed to defend the country. Much better, as some here have suggested, to put money into a beefed up Naval service to protect our fisheries and stop the drug importers. We have no industrial/military complex, and do not tool up all sorts of foreign regimes with military equipment, and are therefore under no obligation to supply cannon fodder to fight against said regimes when they turn bad.


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