New Household Tax - Boycott

ei.sdraob · 26-07-2011 4:42pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I'm in favour of property tax. We pay management fees of 1.5K to just provide general upkeep of the place we live. This would indicate that those not getting private companies (which don't forget compete) to provide upkeep of their estates are getting at least 1.5K from the state to pay the county council to do it. Unless the public sector is mega efficient and can do it for less which is exceptionally unlikely. It's also a good way to get self employed people who dodge tax to actually pay some.

It would seem fairer then that people pay property tax based on the consumer pays principle. The more upkeep the common areas for your house require the more you should have to pay.

Not everyone lives in apartments

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The tax should be in proportion to size of the gaf.

The tax should be a proportion of houseprice

Ger Walsh · 26-07-2011 4:46pm

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Also, can anyone tell me how this affects people in rented accommodation? Would the landlord or tenants have to pay?

the property will have the tax applied to it , preventing it being sold , if it is not paid .

So if the tenant moves out of the property , and the landlord puts the property on the market , they will be responsible for the tax being paid

http://irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?p=8800#post8800

Tim Robbins · 26-07-2011 4:47pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Not everyone lives in apartments

People in estates are also paying management fees. Particularly any estates built in the last few years. We're ground floor apartment, no lift and on 1.5K per year.

The tax should be a proportion of houseprice

Way too difficult to calculate and not keeping in line with consumer pays principle.

If you have a one off house in the country side you are costing the state more money than a terraced house in Donnybrook.

Trampas · 26-07-2011 4:48pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I'm in favour of property tax. We pay management fees of 1.5K to just provide general upkeep of the place we live. This would indicate that those not getting private companies (which don't forget compete) to provide upkeep of their estates are getting at least 1.5K from the state to pay the county council to do it. Unless the public sector is mega efficient and can do it for less which is exceptionally unlikely. It's also a good way to get self employed people who dodge tax to actually pay some.

It would seem fairer then that people pay property tax based on the consumer pays principle. The more upkeep the common areas for your house require the more you should have to pay.

The tax should be in proportion to size of the gaf.

Not every estate gets upkeep from the council. We don't even get a blade of grass cut by the Kildare CC. Never mind a road sweep etc. Only thing we get from the Kildare CC is junk mail when elections are coming up apart from that sweet fa

Tim Robbins · 26-07-2011 4:49pm

Trampas wrote: »

Not every estate gets upkeep from the council. We don't even get a blade of grass cut by the Kildare CC. Never mind a road sweep etc. Only thing we get from the Kildare CC is junk mail when elections are coming up apart from that sweet fa

Separate issue. If the Kildare CC aren't doing their job.

robbie1 · 26-07-2011 4:52pm

we irish dont protest we bitch and moan about it on sites like this and hope some one else
will protest for us

Trhiggy83 · 26-07-2011 4:59pm

This country is an absolute joke to be fair, they just make up the rules as they go along which is really p*ssing people off.

I dont mind paying taxes if for example i feel the tax is worthy of paying but paying tax because you own a house. Its a basic right to own your own home and live in it, they should not be taxing you for the privilege.

We really need to start taxing only the people who deserve to pay more tax.

For example, water tax is not a bad idea- if you use more water you pay more money.

Tax of fuel - you use more fuel than you pay more tax

The list can go on but the system needs to be fair, they current proposals are not fair in my opinion.

I know its only 100 euro but its the principle of the way the government are trying to bring these in that really annoys me.

Blondini · 26-07-2011 5:00pm

I paid for the installation and I pay for the maintenance of my own water supply.

I paid for the installation and I pay for the maintenance of my own wastewater treatment.

I pay for my refuse collection.

I have potholes outside my front gates since the freeze that have yet to be repaired.

So I will not be paying this tax.

feicim · 26-07-2011 5:03pm

meglome wrote: »

I am really sick of all the crying. We are not taxed heavily in this country and the rich are paying most of our taxes. The poorer will either be exempt from paying or will be paying basically no tax already so the €100 is not the end of the world.

If we had been paying a property tax and a water tax all along we would have decent water pipes and we wouldn't have gone mad wasting fast money got from stamp duty.

Yeah right... just like the way car tax goes towards maintaining Irish roads...

I don't remember wasting "fast money got from stamp duty"... however I do remember paying a large chunk of it so the government could waste it on my behalf.

Fighting Irish · 26-07-2011 5:38pm

ncc1699 wrote: »

The majority of the Irish people didn't cause the situation we find ourselves in, useless politicians and dodgy bankers did!

A big portion of the Irish people did help cause this situation, the banks couldn't have given out so much money if we were not looking for it

ncc1699 wrote: »

And isn't it ironic how Fine Gael were the party that were lashing fianna fail in the last government for trying to tax the Irish people out of a recession and that they wouldn't succeed with it

It's ironic, but its also common sense that people will say anything to get what they want. Polititions are normal people like you and me!

Ogham · 26-07-2011 5:43pm

Some more details of the Household Charge here.

Self Declaration
Can pay quarterly

Liam Byrne · 26-07-2011 5:43pm

Phil Hogan is on Six-One now claiming that this will be for local services - and he explicitly said : "including fire services and roads"

Does that mean that we won't be charged by the fire service if we have to call them ?

Does it mean that our road / motor tax will be abandoned ?

Do they have any comprehension whatsoever that charging for the same thing on the double is despicable ?

Liam Byrne · 26-07-2011 5:45pm

Fighting Irish wrote: »

It's ironic, but its also common sense that people will say anything to get what they want. Polititions are normal people like you and me!

What's that supposed to mean ?

Some of us don't lie in order to "get what we want".

If others - and politicians - do, then that's their dishonest choice.

But don't pretend that "saying anything to get what they want" is something most people "normal" do. Some of us are ethical.

Ogham · 26-07-2011 5:46pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Phil Hogan is on Six-One now claiming that this will be for local services - and he explicitly said : "including fire services and roads"

Does that mean that we won't be charged by the fire service if we have to call them ?

Does it mean that our road / motor tax will be abandoned ?

Do they have any comprehension whatsoever that charging for the same thing on the double is despicable ?

The government used to fund these things centrally - now they won't. The money they previously used to pay to local authorities will be now be used to pay for other things (or pay interest on bailout loans !)

Bullseye1 · 26-07-2011 5:48pm

Had to laugh at Phil Hogans point that when we bring the property tax in in 2014 it will be fairer. Don't you mean it will be significantly more money Phil?

26-07-2011 5:49pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Phil Hogan is on Six-One now claiming that this will be for local services - and he explicitly said : "including fire services and roads"

Does that mean that we won't be charged by the fire service if we have to call them ?

Does it mean that our road / motor tax will be abandoned ?

Do they have any comprehension whatsoever that charging for the same thing on the double is despicable ?

Good points made there Liam but not a hope I would say of what you mention happening.

Do we pay less in household tax then if the roads in your area are a joke, your A&E is closed down etc...?

ei.sdraob · 26-07-2011 6:04pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

People in estates are also paying management fees. Particularly any estates built in the last few years. We're ground floor apartment, no lift and on 1.5K per year.
.

I maintain my own lawns, garden, land etc

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Way too difficult to calculate and not keeping in line with consumer pays principle..

I thought the principle of this tax was to extract money to pay bankers, teachers and EU/IMF :pac: :rolleyes:

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If you have a one off house in the country side you are costing the state more money than a terraced house in Donnybrook.

Proof of you claim?

because I dont see no paved roads on this side of the millenium, nor street lightning, nor my grass cut, not my bins collected, nor water supplied
had to pay thousands for electricity connection from a pole 20 meters away and several more thousand to treat own sewage

Tim Robbins · 26-07-2011 6:19pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Proof of you claim?

because I dont see no paved roads on this side of the millenium, nor street lightning, nor my grass cut, not my bins collected, nor water supplied
had to pay thousands for electricity connection from a pole 20 meters away and several more thousand to treat own sewage

A 999 call to your house is more expensive to service. Did you ever hear of economies of scale?

Pete_Cavan · 26-07-2011 6:31pm

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Phil Hogan is on Six-One now claiming that this will be for local services - and he explicitly said : "including fire services and roads"

Does that mean that we won't be charged by the fire service if we have to call them ?

Does it mean that our road / motor tax will be abandoned ?

Do they have any comprehension whatsoever that charging for the same thing on the double is despicable ?

I dont see anything wrong with charging for something twice, it is quite likely the combined charge that you pay will not actually cover the total cost of providing that service anyway.

For example;
If the council calculated the total cost of the fire service (including manpower, training, equipment, infrastructure, etc.) over a year and divided that cost by the number of call outs they had that year, then sent a bill out to everyone who used the service for their proportion of the bill, we would end up with a situation where it is too expensive to use the fire service and people would be wishing the cost of it was spread out over the population in some kind of "household charge".

amen · 26-07-2011 7:17pm

It seems a lot of "I will pay" poster seems to believe that this tax is some how going to go pay for local services, fire, sewage etc.

You can nearly guarantee that this tax is going to go to central government to help pay our IMF/Euro debt and 10billion a year budget deficit.

This year it will be approx 150million euro, next year 300million etc.

As for all the all "I won't pay" an easy solution is to have the tax collected at source i.e. from your wages and have the tax payer prove that they don't own a house.

In general instead of raising taxes we need a way to improve the efficiency of how we spend out taxes increasing our value for money.

We also need to clamp down on tax dodgers(there are a lot out there), social welfare cheats etc.

ei.sdraob · 26-07-2011 7:28pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

A 999 call to your house is more expensive to service.

So now this tax will pay for emergency services :rolleyes: Here i have a lollipop for you on a stick in exchange for 100 euro

Let me see
Health I pay private insurance since our healthcare is **** despite our HSE gobling up huge amounts of tax money, ambulances aint free either in any circumstance
Gardai, already paid for via income taxes etc
Fire dept, i don't expect them ever to get here on time if there is a fire

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Did you ever hear of economies of scale?

What are we? taxpayer pigs on an animal farm :rolleyes:

DublinWriter · 26-07-2011 7:50pm

This levy is basically the thin end of the wedge and marks a return to the 'rates' system of the 1970's.

'Household levy' is also another way of saying 'property tax'.

I was mentally debating this on the drive home.

I'm not going to pay this and I'm prepared to go to prison for non-payment.

Enough is enough.

If FG want to save money then they should abolish the Seanad just like they promised pre-election.

Mayo Exile · 26-07-2011 8:15pm

ei.sdraob wrote: »

A constitutional spending limit with provision for saving of X if economy is growing above Y% a year would have been much better idea, and as added bonus would require a referendum to change the limit, taking the power of being reckless out of the hands of politicians.

Isn't there a fiscal responsibility law due to be passed by the Dáil this year as part of the EU/IMF deal?

dsmythy · 26-07-2011 8:32pm

Hey everyone always goes on that we should be more like Germany. We are making progress it seems

One way to avoid increasing and adding taxes is to cut expenditure instead, but people wouldn't want that either...

So to those who won't pay, whats your alternative preference?

ei.sdraob · 26-07-2011 8:45pm

Mayo Exile wrote: »

Isn't there a fiscal responsibility law due to be passed by the Dáil this year as part of the EU/IMF deal?

No something written into our constitution so any change would require a referendum in order to prevent political posturing and carryon as is happening now in US

Sticky_Fingers · 26-07-2011 8:51pm

dsmythy wrote: »

Hey everyone always goes on that we should be more like Germany. We are making progress it seems

Ireland are so far away from Germany it's not even funny. People are not being asked to pay for services with this tax, we are being asked to pay for the inefficiencies of the system. You might as well take that 100 quid and burn it for all the good it is going to do anyone.

dsmythy wrote: »

One way to avoid increasing and adding taxes is to cut expenditure instead, but people wouldn't want that either...

So to those who won't pay, whats your alternative preference?

Implement real efficiencies into the way services are delivered both national and regional. That however would be too much like hard work and would upset some of the vested interests so they are going to screw the majority to appease the minority.

Crazy Horse 6 · 26-07-2011 9:01pm

bkeano wrote: »

Hi all Boardies

Can we all please make a stance here and get our non boardies to do the same. Enough is Enough We should not pay this new household Tax. Its the same as the Poll tax in the UK. I am an normal Joe Soap with 2 kids. I cant pay any more Taxes. I can afford it as it is. I am lucky to have my Job.

We need to mount a serious objection here and nationwide.

thanks
Brian

Tbh your on the wrong site pal. I've only been on here a couple of months and there is a terrible wiff of the elite on boards. To most on here 100 euro is chump change.

okiss · 26-07-2011 9:41pm

To Tim Robbins re your earlier post - It's also a good way to get self employed people who dodge tax to actually pay some.
Do you have any idea what it is like to be self employed in this country at moment - looking for work and getting paid for jobs. Having enough in you bank account each week and month to pay wages, suppliers, phone, esb, insurance, motor costs and rates along with looking after each revenue bill that arrives in the door.
You can work hard to keep your business afloat, keep staff in work and if things don't work out the state tells you where to go.
I resent what you said that this household tax is a good way to get the self employed to pay tax - do you realize that the taxes and wages we are paying each week and month are keeping local business afloat, keep the dole figures down and going towards salaries for those in state jobs.
I don't like paying more taxes but this household tax will come in as the country is in a bad way and we need all the money we can get.

dev100 · 26-07-2011 9:44pm

mikemac wrote: »

So are people with their own wells paying the full charge or not? So little information out there

Technically if the water is sourced underground then its not yours. You may end up having to pay it

meglome · 26-07-2011 10:14pm

feicim wrote: »

Yeah right... just like the way car tax goes towards maintaining Irish roads...

I don't remember wasting "fast money got from stamp duty"... however I do remember paying a large chunk of it so the government could waste it on my behalf.

Sorry I was under the impression that 'we' the Irish people voted in the government repeatedly, the one who wasted large amounts of money. Oh wait we did.

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

Tbh your on the wrong site pal. I've only been on here a couple of months and there is a terrible wiff of the elite on boards. To most on here 100 euro is chump change.

So it's elite to say paying a €100 tax in a fairly low tax country is okay? I didn't vote for the policies or parties that caused our mess and I didn't borrow money I couldn't pay. But unless I want to leave the country I'm going to have to pay for the mess just like everyone else. I'm pissed off but what's done is done. We have a reality that if you want a certain level of services then we will have to find ways to pay for them as we're broke.

the groutch · 26-07-2011 10:40pm

oh great, throw more money at the local councils, like they're not a big enough waste, 6 guys standing around looking at a pothole for an hour, then 5 of them go have a tea break while one of them actually does some work.
and I can guarantee you that when winter rolls in they'll still have F all salt for the roads.
I'll pay this on the eve of my court appearance.

mrsdewinter · 26-07-2011 10:45pm

I'm not so much in favour of the charge, but I'm grateful that we finally have a figure we can budget for.
But I'm not naive enough to think that this will feed into better services locally. The way I look at it is, this is our way of paying back the debts racked up in the past few years. No, it's true that most of us had little to do with accruing them in the first place, but it's our responsibility to clear them now.

Pride Fighter · 26-07-2011 10:52pm

I would not be in favour of this. However, what else can be done?? Thank you Fianna Fail for screwing up this country so much that regressive taxes like this have to be introduced. FF the economic traitors will shout murder over this I bet you, they have some neck.

Dannyboy83 · 27-07-2011 1:04am

Is this tax to be paid in January?
I hope it is.

Will be a good laugh to see Noonan's expression when the Xmas shopping figures show that spending is down on avg by €100 per person.:rolleyes:
"It's just lack of consumer confidence you see............OMFG! please, please start spending folks!!!!!1"

==

For the people freaking out, you do realise that this amounts to less than €500 million?

That is less than 1/20th of the tax increases to come by 2015. pmsl!:D

i.e. they need to raise another €9.5 billion

That means that 100 euro charge in 2012 will be 500 in 2013 and 1000 in 2014.

donkey balls · 27-07-2011 1:06am

According to some guy from the ESRI who was on the last word yesterday he reckons within a couple of years the levy could be upto €800 plus another €500 for water charges.
When you consider the amount of motor tax we pay in this country compared to the UK flat fee,we are being fleeced yet nothing to show for it except New glorified dual carraigeways posing as new motorways with crap layby etc oh and there is a toll on every single one of them.:rolleyes: and not to mention the fcuked up deals Dempsey did with the operators.
The pr€€ks have all ready decided to take money from my private pension fund which I won't have access to till I'm 68 what next the few quid I'm lucky to have after my bills are paid I for one won't be paying this charge.
Then again they might try and deduct it at source:p and the only other levy/fee that I pay yearly is the tv licence you could be a Mather for not paying the household charge amongst your mates but they probably call you a tv sponger for not paying the licence.:D

nesf · 27-07-2011 2:10am

Crazy Horse 6 wrote: »

Tbh your on the wrong site pal. I've only been on here a couple of months and there is a terrible wiff of the elite on boards. To most on here 100 euro is chump change.

Yeah, €2 a week is serious money after all.

!3theraven · 27-07-2011 3:00am

Regarding property tax-I encourage everyone to watch this video-and watch near the end how a woman is forced to sell her own home because of property taxes and how they operate in America-if we don,t fiight back against property tax-how happened to this woman will happen to many people here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2bju39fTTI

Le_Dieux · 27-07-2011 5:13am

Trampas wrote: »

Can someone define what a 'ghost estate' is?

Where I live there are houses which have remained unsold and the road in the estate is not finished. People have had to build slopes from the road to the footpath since there is about a 6 inch step between the road and the footpath. There is a slope on the footpath for cars but since the road is not finished or never will be finished since the developer is bust. Does that count as a 'ghost estate' or will a 'ghost estate' be impossible to an exact definition.

I also wonder what qualifies as a 'ghost estate'? The estate I am in has 2 phases, 1 phase sold out, but the other still has about 48 houses to be built, has about 10-12 built but unoccupied ( inclusing 2 showhouses), has a fenced off area (where the approx 48 houses were to be built). There is NO houses half built ( ie every house started had its construction completed).

Does this fall into the category 'ghost estate'?

annil · 27-07-2011 7:09am

We need to refuse to pay this tax. It is an interim charge which will rapidly rise. In the UK a householder in a 3 bed semi would pay about Â£1000 a year and that will happen here unlesr people stand together and boycott this outrageous tax that is just another way of stealing money from hardworking taxpayers to help bailout the banks.

annil · 27-07-2011 7:14am

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Is this tax to be paid in January?
I hope it is.

Will be a good laugh to see Noonan's expression when the Xmas shopping figures show that spending is down on avg by â‚¬100 per person.:rolleyes:
"It's just lack of consumer confidence you see............OMFG! please, please start spending folks!!!!!1"

==

For the people freaking out, you do realise that this amounts to less than â‚¬500 million?

That is less than 1/20th of the tax increases to come by 2015. pmsl!:D

i.e. they need to raise another â‚¬9.5 billion

That means that 100 euro charge in 2012 will be 500 in 2013 and 1000 in 2014.

Boycott Now. Will be â‚¬1000 within 2 years.

mikep · 27-07-2011 7:50am

I personally agree with this tax, for me €100 a year isn't too bad, for now...

What confuses me is the "left" (ULA/Jim Higgins etc) constantly go on about the "rich/elite" not making their fair share...It seems to me that the €100 will be replaced in 2 years by a property tax based on valuation, therefore the "rich/elite" will pay more in the future, if they live in swanky houses as opposed to council estates,...Isn't that what the "left" want???

nesf · 27-07-2011 8:15am

annil wrote: »

We need to refuse to pay this tax. It is an interim charge which will rapidly rise. In the UK a householder in a 3 bed semi would pay about Â£1000 a year and that will happen here unlesr people stand together and boycott this outrageous tax that is just another way of stealing money from hardworking taxpayers to help bailout the banks.

Gah, I can't stand this. It's got sweet **** all to do with the banks and everything to do with our massive current deficit in the Budget. If we only had the banks to worry about we wouldn't be anywhere close to the mess we're currently in.

Uriel. · 27-07-2011 8:15am

annil wrote: »

We need to refuse to pay this tax. It is an interim charge which will rapidly rise. In the UK a householder in a 3 bed semi would pay about Â£1000 a year and that will happen here unlesr people stand together and boycott this outrageous tax that is just another way of stealing money from hardworking taxpayers to help bailout the banks.

As a matter of interest, you say that an average homeowner in Britain pays circa €1,000 per annum for a similar charge. At the same time you say that we here should refuse to pay.

Why should we be different to Britain or the multiple other modern economies that have similar charges?

Bullseye1 · 27-07-2011 8:17am

Isn't it correct to say that this household charge does not include the water charge we I believe will be an additional €100. So people will actually be required to pay €200.

seamus · 27-07-2011 8:19am

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Isn't it correct to say that this household charge does not include the water charge we I believe will be an additional €100. So people will actually be required to pay €200.

Probably. Though water charges will be different, as they will only be payable by those connected to the public water mains. Those with their own wells or on group water schemes already pay for their water, and so wouldn't be subject to a water charge.

nuac · 27-07-2011 8:32am

It is only in Utopia that everything can be free and nobody has to pay for anything.

ei.sdraob · 27-07-2011 8:44am

nesf wrote: »

Gah, I can't stand this. It's got sweet **** all to do with the banks and everything to do with our massive current deficit in the Budget. If we only had the banks to worry about we wouldn't be anywhere close to the mess we're currently in.

Do you pour more water into a bucket with many holes in it, or do you patchup the bucket first

nesf · 27-07-2011 8:45am

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Do you pour more water into a bucket with many holes in it, or do you patchup the bucket first

When the water level is already under where it needs to be, you need to do both.

Bullseye1 · 27-07-2011 8:50am

nuac wrote: »

It is only in Utopia that everything can be free and nobody has to pay for anything.

People paid alot of money to the government for their houses through VAT and Stamp Duty. They haven't been living in utopia.

While I agree in principal with some kind of property tax it should have been brought in 10 years ago on all investment properties. Irish governments are never ahead of the game everything they do is a reaction.

ei.sdraob · 27-07-2011 8:56am

nesf wrote: »

When the water level is already under where it needs to be, you need to do both.

Myself and many people here it seems have no issue with the concept of taxation, the main problem is people realising that this money will not go where its promised and the usual lack of transparency intertwined with lies.

If you listen to the minister yesterday you would come under the impression that this scheme could be operated at no cost, I bet you 100 million out 160 collected will just endup on "administration costs"
The remainder would be sent to the central government who would then redistribute it back (after taking a cut of X) to each council based on some weights (population?)

What we have here is the birth of yet another beuracratic web that will grow like a parasite year on year.

Someone mentioned countries like Germany earlier, the US for example has property taxes which are highly variable but you can bet the money stays locally and the amount of detail available in the federal budgets is amazing, on the other hand has anyone ever tried to gather statistics/info about the Irish government spending? the system here is highly opaque, lack of transparency leads to corruption and waste and of course as we all now know no accountability

New Household Tax - Boycott

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