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When & How could there be a united Ireland?

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    #962
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    old_aussie wrote: »
    So the North then share these subsidies with their poorer brothers in the South.

    The north get subsidies and the south gets what?

    why should the south get anything?

    the south - the Republic of Ireland - is a fully independent sovereign state. the upside to that is that it has the absolute freedom to decide its own policies, the down side is that it alone gets to pay for them.


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    #963
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    I love how everyone keeps calling the 26 counties "The Republic of Ireland" When in fact its official name in the constitution is "Ireland or Éire"


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    #964
    OS119
    Registered Users Posts: 2,518 ✭✭✭OS119


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I love how everyone keeps calling the 26 counties "The Republic of Ireland" When in fact its official name in the constitution is "Ireland or Éire"

    its what the '26 counties' calls itself to those abroad.

    if that isn't what is written in the constitution that's Irelands' problem, not anyone else's.


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    #965
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    OS119 wrote: »
    its what the '26 counties' calls itself to those abroad.

    if that isn't what is written in the constitution that's Irelands' problem, not anyone else's.
    In all official documentation I believe it is referred to as "Ireland". In legal documentation anyway, as there is no such place as "The Republic of Ireland"

    Its not exactly a problem, just something I thought was interesting.


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    #966
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    Oh boo hoo.
    As if the Unionists members of parliment have been looking after the interests of their Nationalist constituents through the years.
    I've been told by more than one of his nationalist constituents that Ian Paisley was always as helpful to them as to any of his unionist constituents. Whatever else about him, he took his role as an MP seriously.
    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I love how everyone keeps calling the 26 counties "The Republic of Ireland" When in fact its official name in the constitution is "Ireland or Éire"
    "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."

    - The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948


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    #967
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."

    - The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948


    Yes, description, not name. I know of an instance were extradition forms to the "Republic of Ireland" were thrown out as it is not an actual country.


    As I said it is not a big deal, but it is a misconception out there about the states actual name, just something I commented on.


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    #968
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    Yes, description, not name. I know of an instance were extradition forms to the "Republic of Ireland" were thrown out as it is not an actual country.
    Sure, in as serious a legal issue as that, the distinction becomes important.
    As I said it is not a big deal, but it is a misconception out there about the states actual name, just something I commented on.
    I'm under no illusions as to the name of my country, but I'll regularly describe myself as being from "the Republic if Ireland". There's nothing whatsoever invalid about doing so; it's an unambiguous description of the actual state I live in.

    It also helps to avoid the cringeworthy question of "Northern or Southern Ireland" - because there certainly isn't a country called Southern Ireland.


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    #969
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ... "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."

    - The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948

    Description. The name is still "Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland". [Art. 4 of the Constitution]

    Personally, I usually refer to the state as Ireland (occasionally Éire, because I sometimes use Irish), but I don't care if somebody else refers to it as the Republic of Ireland or, for brevity, as the Republic.

    I know people who refer to the state as "the 26 counties", and even some who speak of "the Free State". Most of those people have a political perspective that I do not share. Our choice of language can say something about us (although sometimes all it says is that we are careless about language).


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    #970
    Mayo Exile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,634 ✭✭✭Mayo Exile


    oscarBravo wrote: »

    "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland."

    - The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948

    Bunreacht na hEireann (Constitution of Ireland)

    The State.

    Article 4 - The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.


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    #971
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Sure, in as serious a legal issue as that, the distinction becomes important. I'm under no illusions as to the name of my country, but I'll regularly describe myself as being from "the Republic if Ireland". There's nothing whatsoever invalid about doing so; it's an unambiguous description of the actual state I live in.

    It also helps to avoid the cringeworthy question of "Northern or Southern Ireland" - because there certainly isn't a country called Southern Ireland.
    Look, anyone can refer to any country anyway they want, I just find it humorous, particularly in the many instances when I refer to the state as the 26 or the south and someone says "Its name is the ROI"
    I just find it interesting, that many people who aren't as enlightened as yourself believe that ROI is the states name. Not pointing the finger at anyone, just in general.


    Personally I just say I am from Ireland. Or Éire.


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    #972
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    I tell people I'm from Ireland. If they ask, as happens, how come the North is part of England, (yes they say that) I tell them, 'Oh, part of my country is occupied by them.' Basically it's hard for foreign folk to get their head around the fact that Britan or merry old England could be party to such a thing. And to be fair are completely confused by the whole British/English concept. Most thinking it's the same thing...say nothing to the Scots or Welsh!


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    #973
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Most countries have an official name that may or may not be used in everyday speech...my GF would never say she comes from "Bundesrepublik Deutschland", she'd just say "Deutschland", even though the former is the official name for Germany in the German language. Few Americans say "I'm from the United States of America", usually saying "the US" or ""the States" etc. No need for Irish people to get so tied up about it really.


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    #974
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    I generally just say I'm Irish. If I'm asked whether I'm from the North or South, I say the South.

    However, in a thread like this, for some reason, it becomes a huge issue!

    The six counties, or the North, were commonly used terms when I was a child/teenager - and they didn't have any politically offensive undertones either. To this day, if someone refers to the "six counties" in everyday conversation, I regard it as a referral to a geographic area - nothing more.

    Noreen


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    #975
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    I generally just say I'm Irish.
    Me too.
    However, in a thread like this, for some reason, it becomes a huge issue!
    Only when someone decides to make it so. I'm under no illusions as to what the name of the country is - with respect to those who pointed me to article 4 of the Constitution - but it's just more efficient in some circumstances to be able to say, for example, "how much would it cost to ship that to the Republic of Ireland?" - it saves the follow-up question, and, as I've said, tends to avoid the grating use of the phrase "Southern Ireland".


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    #976
    Jaap
    Registered Users Posts: 289 ✭✭Jaap


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    The one man who said the only way for a United Ireland by force and the IRA, Martin Mcguinness, yesterday and today celebrated the UK CITY OF CULTURE for Londonderry/Derry.

    Now that tells you an awful lot when it comes to the position for a United Ireland at the moment. MILES away from it.

    At least Martin won't be campaigning for a United Ireland until after 2013 and til Londonderry has had its full year of shows, concerts, tourism, jobs etc!!! :D


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    #977
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Me too. Only when someone decides to make it so. I'm under no illusions as to what the name of the country is - with respect to those who pointed me to article 4 of the Constitution - but it's just more efficient in some circumstances to be able to say, for example, "how much would it cost to ship that to the Republic of Ireland?" - it saves the follow-up question, and, as I've said, tends to avoid the grating use of the phrase "Southern Ireland".

    Yes, I have to admit that I also tend to use the term "Republic of Ireland" when I'm arranging to have something shipped.
    It tends to avoid a lot of confusion.:D

    Noreen


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    #978
    lugha
    Registered Users Posts: 3,235 ✭✭✭lugha


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    The six counties, or the North, were commonly used terms when I was a child/teenager - and they didn't have any politically offensive undertones either.

    Perhaps not offensive but “six counties” certainly is political. It was and is used by republicans who did not recognise the legitimacy of either state on this island. The “correct” name of Ireland for the Southern state is rather unhelpful when you are talking about the national question, as it is plainly necessary to make clear which jurisdiction you are referring to, which “Ireland” does not do.
    I refer to the two states in all sorts of different ways, my preference being “The Republic of Ireland”, despite it not existing :P and sometimes I refer to the “Irish republic” for brevity. I know some republicans take exception to the latter as it was sometimes used as a derogatory term by English folk, as apparently was “Eire” at one point. But this would only be an issue if I made a point of always using this term to refer to the place, just as someone who always uses either Derry or Londonderry but not both interchangeably.
    Noreen1 wrote: »
    To this day, if someone refers to the "six counties" in everyday conversation, I regard it as a referral to a geographic area - nothing more.
    For most people, and in most contexts, it is simply pedantry to be fussing over correct names and descriptions and the like. However, if someone persists in using a particular term with which there is an “issue”, then you cannot dismiss it as being pedantic. For example, if a British newspaper made the point of always referring to “the Irish republic” then it is perfectly reasonable to assume that they subscribe to any derogatory undertones associated with that phrase.
    Which brings me to Sinn Fein! And their insistence on using the terms “6 counties” and “26 counties” which were the terms favoured in the past to indicate that they did not recognise the respective state. That was fine, well at least consistent, in the past, when they were quite unambiguous about their view on the status of these states. The problem with continuing to do so is that they now claim to be democrats who respect the will of the people in both states, and thus recognise both states. And it is a big issue. They are either democrats or they are not.


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    #979
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    lugha wrote: »
    Perhaps not offensive but “six counties” certainly is political. It was and is used by republicans who did not recognise the legitimacy of either state on this island. The “correct” name of Ireland for the Southern state is rather unhelpful when you are talking about the national question, as it is plainly necessary to make clear which jurisdiction you are referring to, which “Ireland” does not do.
    I refer to the two states in all sorts of different ways, my preference being “The Republic of Ireland”, despite it not existing :P and sometimes I refer to the “Irish republic” for brevity. I know some republicans take exception to the latter as it was sometimes used as a derogatory term by English folk, as apparently was “Eire” at one point. But this would only be an issue if I made a point of always using this term to refer to the place, just as someone who always uses either Derry or Londonderry but not both interchangeably.

    For most people, and in most contexts, it is simply pedantry to be fussing over correct names and descriptions and the like. However, if someone persists in using a particular term with which there is an “issue”, then you cannot dismiss it as being pedantic. For example, if a British newspaper made the point of always referring to “the Irish republic” then it is perfectly reasonable to assume that they subscribe to any derogatory undertones associated with that phrase.
    Which brings me to Sinn Fein! And their insistence on using the terms “6 counties” and “26 counties” which were the terms favoured in the past to indicate that they did not recognise the respective state. That was fine, well at least consistent, in the past, when they were quite unambiguous about their view on the status of these states. The problem with continuing to do so is that they now claim to be democrats who respect the will of the people in both states, and thus recognise both states. And it is a big issue. They are either democrats or they are not.

    I'd broadly agree with you, except for one thing.

    All of what you say is true - but it neglects to take account of how places were named "traditionally".

    For example, I always refer to Londonderry as "Derry". (Note to self: Don't do it on Boards!:D)

    I do so purely and simply because that is how I heard it referred to as a child. I can guarantee you, my parents referred to it as "Derry" because that is how it was referred to when they were children.
    That doesn't mean that either they, or I, believe that Londonderry is part of the "Republic". It is not intended to have any political nuance at all.
    It is purely because that is how the name was passed on through oral tradition.

    There are many examples of placenames that were anglicised throughout Ireland, and yet, locally, are still known by their traditional Irish names.
    In the "Republic", that is entirely taken for granted. So, it's worth noting that, while constant use of a particular name may have a political meaning - that is not always the case.

    Off topic, but, on a lighter note - some of the anglicised place names in Northern Ireland are hilarious.
    My poor OH was completely mystified one day when myself and the children erupted into gales of laughter when passing a very nice, clearly elite housing estate.
    Enquiries as to the cause of the mirth elicited a laughter-choked "The name of the estate".
    Five minute later, amid much "I bet they don't know what it means!" - he managed to discover that the estate was called an anglicised version of the old Irish name for "Witches Lair".

    And, no - I'm not going to tell anyone where it is.:p:D:D

    Noreen


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