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Bloody Sunday killings to be ruled unlawful

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24567…14

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    #32
    Japer
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 792 ✭✭✭Japer


    fryup wrote: »
    exactly, do we really have to go on and on about past misdeads

    i mean millions upon millions was spent on Bloody Sunday inquiry is it going to bring back the deceased >no........surely that money would have been better spent on hospitals, schools, job creation etc something constructive

    and if we are going to go down that route why not have an inquiry into bloody friday as well:cool:

    +1. I do not believe the deaths which took place on Bloody Sunday were planned, premeditated or forseen ....unlike the deaths which occured on Bloody Friday, Le Mons, etc. 200 million sterling should be better spent than on barristers investigating something that happened on the spur of the moment over 40 years ago.


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    #33
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    fryup wrote: »
    bollix whenever there's an election coming its sinn fein who have all the posters out first all over the place ...it has plenty of money.. cross border smuggling, protection rackets...money laundering >northern bank robbery

    Cross border smuggling my hole. Each constituency office has to raise it's own funds for posters which is done through music nights, dinner dances, raffles etc. I know you'd love to believe that it's all obtained through smuggling and money laundering - but you're seriously wrong.

    So much money infact, that the local SF office here in Waterford had to close down because they couldn't afford the costs of it. Yeah, I'm sure SF is just basking in wealth. :rolleyes:
    fryup wrote: »
    the ira have accepted their part with a few media friendly statements...my question to you is ....would adams be willing to face an inquiry to explain his part in bloody friday ...i doubt it

    Why don't you make a thread about it and ask? This is a thread discussing the pending findings of Bloody Sunday.


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    #34
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Japer wrote: »
    I do not believe the deaths which took place on Bloody Sunday were planned, premeditated or forseen ....

    A man waving a white flag, trying to come to the aid of a dieing man was shot in the back of the head. Please, what adjective would you use to describe those actions.
    Japer wrote: »
    200 million sterling should be better spent than on barristers investigating something that happened on the spur of the moment over 40 years ago.

    Irrelevant. The costs of the inquiry are 100% the fault of the British Government. It could have been wrapped up quickly, and relatively cheaply if the original inquiry had of been valid and fair.


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    #35
    Hendrix89
    Registered Users Posts: 649 ✭✭✭Hendrix89


    Basically a lot of people in this thread don't want to see murderers jailed because they are/were british soldiers...

    You go on about how we should be moving on and forgetting about this and what's happened in the past only to start rambling about IRA victims not having justice (which is not the topic of this thread).. Hypocritical much?

    Just because these men wore a soldiers uniform does not make them good people. They are cold blooded murderers and deserve to jailed for the rest of their lives.

    The reactions of some people in this thread is exactly what makes me fear that these murderers won't ever face prosecution.


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    #36
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Hendrix89 wrote: »
    Just because these men wore a soldiers uniform does not make them good people. They are cold blooded murderers and deserve to jailed for the rest of their lives..

    ..and just because others didn't wear a uniform doesn't mean they should be exempt. There are plenty of cold blooded murderers who deserve to be jailed for the rest of their lives. There are plenty of other families who have gotten no justice at all, not even someone being held responsible.


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    #37
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    I hope we will finally see justice. This was murder, unadulterated murder.


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    #38
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Japer wrote: »
    +1. I do not believe the deaths which took place on Bloody Sunday were planned, premeditated or forseen ....unlike the deaths which occured on Bloody Friday, Le Mons, etc. 200 million sterling should be better spent than on barristers investigating something that happened on the spur of the moment over 40 years ago.

    I'l dig up link tomorrow to the fact that the british army were going to lower the velocity of their rifles to allow them to shoot particular rioters without the bullet passing through their bodies


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    #39
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    fryup wrote: »

    the ira have accepted their part with a few media friendly statements...my question to you is ....would adams be willing to face an inquiry to explain his part in bloody friday ...i doubt it

    I doubt he would welcome that, but generally one doesn't have a choice about facing an inquiry. Why are you bringing that up anyway?? Its pure whataboutery and utterly irrelevant.

    Are you suggesting that because Gerry Adams is lying about his role in the PIRA the investigation into a massacre of civilian's somehow has diminished merit? That's retarded - catch yourself on


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    #40
    celticbhoy1888
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭celticbhoy1888


    the ira got justice in 1979 whoo warrenpoint:P


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    #41
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    celticbhoy1888 wrote: »
    the ira got justice in 1979 whoo warrenpoint:P

    Please read the Charter, specifically the bits about posting celebrations of murder. Banned for a month.


    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #42
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Those behind the killings should be brought to account for their actions in public and if needs be summoned to a court of law.


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    #43
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    jank wrote: »
    Those behind the killings should be brought to account for their actions in public and if needs be summoned to a court of law.

    What will happen though? Could those responsible hide behind the GFA?


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    #44
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    The GFA released the convicted. As far as I know, it granted no amnesty to the "on the runs". As far as I understand it, they could still be charged and convicted, then released soon after.


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    #45
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    jank wrote: »
    Those behind the killings should be brought to account for their actions in public and if needs be summoned to a court of law.

    Presumably you would include all killings in that statement.?


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    #46
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    I'l dig up link tomorrow to the fact that the british army were going to lower the velocity of their rifles to allow them to shoot particular rioters without the bullet passing through their bodies

    Interesting. But undoubtedly rubbish - the only way you could 'lower' the velocity of a 7.62x51mm round from an SLR would be to somehow suppress the weapon, and suppressors weren't available for the SLR then (and would probably result in the weapon not cycling).

    Bloody Sunday was a tactical and strategic disaster for the British Army, and for both Governments. The evidence has been fairly clear for years that senior commanders were aghast, and were shouting for a cease fire pretty much as soon as the shooting started. Calling it a 'strategic' act is rubbish though, if anything it was a consequence of using entirely inappropriate troops in an ill advised way in a very stressful situation.

    It was possibly the biggest PR boost the SF/IRA got in the entire history of the troubles also, and perhaps the most unfortunate thing about this publication is that it will give rise to a whole new round of whataboutery from the 'republican community'. On that note, it will be interesting to see what Saville has to say about the locations and actions of Mr McGuinness that day. Senior republicans got a pass on the criminal justice system because of the peace process, regardless of whether or not they had convictions. I wonder if SF will extend the same definition of justice to former members of the British Army?


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    #47
    celticbest
    Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭celticbest


    My question is if the soldiers involved are proving to have murdered innocent civilians will they still receive there Army Pensions?? Also will they be named by the inquiry??


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    #48
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Presumably you would include all killings in that statement.?

    He would if that was the context for discussion. It isn't. We're discussing the Bloody Sunday inquiry. I hope this is clear.


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    #49
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    dlofnep wrote: »
    He would if that was the context for discussion. It isn't. We're discussing the Bloody Sunday inquiry. I hope this is clear.

    If it isn't clear, let me reiterate it. Do not attempt to drag the thread into a discussion of every killing that's ever happened in Ulster history.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #50
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    celticbest wrote: »
    My question is if the soldiers involved are proving to have murdered innocent civilians will they still receive there Army Pensions?? Also will they be named by the inquiry??

    Interesting point.

    On the basis the killings were unlawful, there is still a court case to go through to ascertain the actual conviction. Is it murder, manslaughter etc. On a case by case basis. We only talk about the dead as well, there are also the injured.

    If they are to be named and lose their pensions, I wonder whose decision it is? Is there a commission to cover this sort of thing?


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    #51
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    I'd presume theres an Army board for that kind of thing. I doubt very much if anything like that was to happen though.


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    #52
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Never mind losing pensions, they should be locked up.


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    #53
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Under the GFA, they'd be only detained temporarily, before being released. Sauce for the goose and all that.


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    #54
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    It was possibly the biggest PR boost the SF/IRA got in the entire history of the troubles also, and perhaps the most unfortunate thing about this publication is that it will give rise to a whole new round of whataboutery from the 'republican community'.

    Maybe it will just finally give a bit of closure to those whose family members were murdered.
    On that note, it will be interesting to see what Saville has to say about the locations and actions of Mr McGuinness that day. Senior republicans got a pass on the criminal justice system because of the peace process, regardless of whether or not they had convictions. I wonder if SF will extend the same definition of justice to former members of the British Army?

    The relevant person/people will have to act in accordance with the Good Friday Agreement.


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    #55
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Nodin wrote: »
    Under the GFA, they'd be only detained temporarily, before being released. Sauce for the goose and all that.
    I thought that was paramilitaries? Or is the BA included in that?


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    #56
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I thought that was paramilitaries? Or is the BA included in that?

    I think they will also get off under the GFA. Not 100% though.


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    #57
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    T runner wrote: »
    I think they will also get off under the GFA. Not 100% though.
    When I get a chance I will look up the GFA and see what it says... I really thought it was only IRA UVF etc.. sure they only got released on condition of them being on a ceasefire?


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    #58
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I thought that was paramilitaries? Or is the BA included in that?

    I'm npt sure how well that would go down in the UK to be honest. As Nodin says, sauce for the goose.


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    #59
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Here is the specific text regarding prisoners and early release. I believe it is specifically for paramilitary organisations. Although it's kind of ambiguous.
    PRISONERS
    1. Both Governments will put in place mechanisms to provide for an accelerated programme for the release of prisoners, including transferred prisoners, convicted of scheduled offences in Northern Ireland or, in the case of those sentenced outside Northern Ireland, similar offences (referred to hereafter as qualifying prisoners). Any such arrangements will protect the rights of individual prisoners under national and international law.

    2. Prisoners affiliated to organisations which have not established or are not maintaining a complete and unequivocal ceasefire will not benefit from the arrangements. The situation in this regard will be kept under review.

    3. Both Governments will complete a review process within a fixed time frame and set prospective release dates for all qualifying prisoners. The review process would provide for the advance of the release dates of qualifying prisoners while allowing account to be taken of the seriousness of the offences for which the person was convicted and the need to protect the community. In addition, the intention would be that should the circumstances allow it, any qualifying prisoners who remained in custody two years after the commencement of the scheme would be released at that point.

    4. The Governments will seek to enact the appropriate legislation to give effect to these arrangements by the end of June 1998.

    5. The Governments continue to recognise the importance of measures to facilitate the reintegration of prisoners into the community by providing support both prior to and after release, including assistance directed towards availing of employment opportunities, re-training and/or re-skilling, and further education.


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    #60
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Thanks very much for that dlofnep, as I thought.


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    #61
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    There is no mention of Paramilitaries, it just says prisoners. If it was intended just for Paramilitaries than it should say so. Any lawyer worth his salt is going to argue the odds on that one.


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