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BBC on mass immigration to Ireland - we have messed it up basically

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    #62
    thefinalstage
    Registered Users Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭thefinalstage


    HollyB wrote: »
    Would that be legal under EU law? Don't EU citizens have to be treated equally?

    If the country goes to hell as is the scenario here we could easily close our borders and just say we are looking after our own. Think Germany.


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    #63
    HollyB
    Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭HollyB


    thelastangryman wrote: »
    If the country goes to hell as is the scenario here we could easily close our borders and just say we are looking after our own. Think Germany.

    Would we need to leave the EU for that?


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    #64
    thefinalstage
    Registered Users Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭thefinalstage


    HollyB wrote: »
    Would we need to leave the EU for that?

    No. We never have to accept what the EU proposes. Look at Britain, they still have there own currency.


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    #65
    OPENROAD
    Registered Users Posts: 11,692 ✭✭✭✭OPENROAD


    HollyB wrote: »
    Would we need to leave the EU for that?


    What do you think?


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    #66
    OPENROAD
    Registered Users Posts: 11,692 ✭✭✭✭OPENROAD


    thelastangryman wrote: »
    No. We never have to accept what the EU proposes. Look at Britain, they still have there own currency.


    Your on the wind up, right?


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    #67
    HollyB
    Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭HollyB


    OPENROAD wrote: »
    What do you think?

    I would imagine that yes, we would need to leave the EU if we were to pull back on the equal treatment of EU citizens, free movement or anything like that, but I don't know the answer for certain so I asked.


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    #68
    OPENROAD
    Registered Users Posts: 11,692 ✭✭✭✭OPENROAD


    HollyB wrote: »
    I would imagine that yes, we would need to leave the EU if we were to pull back on the equal treatment of EU citizens, free movement or anything like that, but I don't know the answer for certain so I asked.


    Well you are right we would have to leave EU.

    I think we can close our borders on public health grounds or public security grounds.

    But EU citizens have the same rights as we would have.


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    #69
    thefinalstage
    Registered Users Posts: 3,502 ✭✭✭thefinalstage


    OPENROAD wrote: »
    Your on the wind up, right?

    Well you obviously can't close them per say but you could put in so much red tape as to make it undesirable.


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    #70
    OPENROAD
    Registered Users Posts: 11,692 ✭✭✭✭OPENROAD


    thelastangryman wrote: »
    Well you obviously can't close them per say but you could put in so much red tape as to make it undesirable.


    Like what. You can't, we are signed up to the whole EU thing, end of.

    You refer to the UK. Well John Major negotiated an opt out of the single european currency.


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    #71
    Hydroquinone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 398 ✭✭Hydroquinone


    OPENROAD wrote: »
    my mistake,its a Mercedes in the UK, the BMWs are in Ireland;)
    What in the name of God are you waffling about?


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    #72
    OPENROAD
    Registered Users Posts: 11,692 ✭✭✭✭OPENROAD


    Hydroquinone wrote: »
    What in the name of God are you waffling about?

    On the wind up, you are a bit slow tonight.:)


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    #73
    Hydroquinone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 398 ✭✭Hydroquinone


    There's a lot of it about, it seems.
    All you wind up merchants should wise up - there's only one finger movement in the difference, after all
    I'll leave it to your imagination which finger I mean.


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    #74
    darkman2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    Macker wrote: »
    Although you make some valid points I don't think Mr. Myers works for the Times no more ,it's all in the detail my friend .

    edit for mong spelling

    :D Your right. He works for the indo now. My mistake.


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    #75
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    Irish people complaining about immigration - anyone else choking on the irony?


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    #76
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    Hydroquinone wrote: »
    I'd say not. Anyone who's old enough to be in government today knows only too well what a drastic state the country was in before the Celtic Tiger started up. Who wants to go back to that?
    The driving purpose of the government at the time wasn't the good and welfare of the nation, it was basically that the people in government not be among the huddled masses. What makes you think it has changed since then?


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    #77
    justcallmetex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭justcallmetex


    PHB wrote: »
    Yep, that's why our economies are suffering and the economies which wouldn't let immigrants in are doing great .... oh wait

    Statement like that needs some kind of supporting evidence. wha u got?


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    #78
    justcallmetex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭justcallmetex


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Irish people complaining about immigration - anyone else choking on the irony?

    ME


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    #79
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    justcallmetex wrote: »
    Statement like that needs some kind of supporting evidence. wha u got?
    Hes mixing up correlation and causation there. Economies do great, then loads of migrants show up. Not loads of migrants show up and then economies start booming.


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    #80
    daniel3982
    Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭daniel3982


    Send me back, I'm a dirty, sponging, immigrant bast*rd taking advantage of Irish services and hospiltality (or is it ok for me because I hold a British passport and not a Polish/Lithuanian/Czech one?).


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    #81
    justcallmetex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭justcallmetex


    daniel3982 wrote: »
    Send me back, I'm a dirty, sponging, immigrant bast*rd taking advantage of Irish services and hospiltality (or is it ok for me because I hold a British passport and not a Polish/Lithuanian/Czech one?).

    I think a lot of people would like that. There seems to be a lot of people out there who want the old days back with a mono cultural mono religious Ireland with our recent economic success intact. At least we're still a nation of dreamers.


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    #82
    Wertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I'm not intolerant to anyone. I was highlighting that they tried to find the most ignorant and awful sounding person on the street to argue the case against immigration. I'm sure they went around to dozens of people, but opted to use the one who had the most dramatic things to say.

    Okay fair enough, that comment was a bit off the cuff on my account.
    I'd be more of the opinion that they went to an estate, probably a council estate where "people on the ground" (I hate that phrase) that are currently affected by apparent immigration problems in the area than people in the €500K pads out on the shoreline are...but it's something that's going to affect all but the super rich in the deacdes to come.


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    #83
    Laslo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 831 ✭✭✭Laslo


    super-lloyd wrote: »
    Personally I currenty leave in Australia, a country were there are heaps more immigrant than in France (where I leaved before) and probably Ireland I suppose.

    Well I never saw such a peacefull, harmonious, racism free country. It's awesome and it all worked out nicely. Now I really wonder why most European country have such "immigration problem" while Australia which has much more immigrant worked out so well....

    Yeah, wouldn't it be great if we could all be like Australia. Where the native Aborigines have been subjugated for generations and race attacks are commonplace.


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    #84
    Wertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    Just read the rest of thread; to people suggesting we "close" our borders should the economy go pear-shaped, tell me exactly what that achieves.
    To quote my first post in the thread, barring stable doors is no good to us now, ie. it's too late; by the time the economy turns bad (assuming that that happens) most of those immigrants, be they EU or non-EU will have laid down roots here, will have kids that were born and raised here, etc, fair enough some will return to their own countries....what do we do with the rest? Round them up at gun point and frog march them to the airport? Obviously not. But all those people who had gainful employment back when times were better, who perhaps paid taxes and insurance now have no job, no means of income...but they still have outgoings and families to feed...so it's off down the social welfare office.
    It's already happening. I had cause to visit my local office a month or so back (times are getting tight in construction) and apart from the usual selection of Irish layabouts waiting on their brew, nearly all the remaining people waiting in line were not Irish. That is only going to worsen; you're deluded if you think otherwise. We can' just turn around and put a sign up in the dole office saying "Irish Only", we can't even try and be underhand about it; it's outright discrimination.
    Now how does our already labouring social welfare system cope with the extra payments that need to be found? Cutbacks someplace else? Raise taxes? What suffers then? An already supposedly underfunded (read mismanaged) health system? An already lacking education system? What?
    Or do we start borrowing ourselves back into a situation of national debt?
    Of course this is all hypothetical and somewhat rhetorical...the simple fact is that no-one in government or the civil service has had the foresight to consider that this might become a major issue in the future when all that stamp duty revenue and corporation tax has dried up, they jst assumed that we open our borders and everything will be rosy forever.
    The country possibly heads back to the dark old days except now we also have new social problems, coming from our newfound ghettoes and ethnic minorities, crime, social unrest, who knows what? I'm a real optimist eh?

    Also to anyone harping on about the irony of us giving out about immigration; the major difference about when we all had to emigrate was that we went to work and to work only...most countries except the UK did not hand us social welfare/housing if things turned rough...you either worked, wenmt home or starved and went homeless. It's not the same as the cakewalk immigrants and asylum seekers face upon arrival to this island.


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    #85
    Pete4779
    Closed Accounts Posts: 622 ✭✭✭Pete4779


    PHB wrote: »
    Yep, that's why our economies are suffering and the economies which wouldn't let immigrants in are doing great .... oh wait

    True. Norway for example is completely ****ed. As is Iceland. And Denmark.


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    #86
    SubjectSean
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭SubjectSean


    Wertz wrote: »
    Also to anyone harping on about the irony of us giving out about immigration; the major difference about when we all had to emigrate was that we went to work and to work only...most countries except the UK did not hand us social welfare/housing if things turned rough...you either worked, wenmt home or starved and went homeless. It's not the same as the cakewalk immigrants and asylum seekers face upon arrival to this island.

    Absolute bollocks. The Irish have been involved in welfare fraud or criminality at every location in the diaspora. Irish people giving out about immigration isn't just ironic it's profoundly hypocritical.


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    #87
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    SubjectSean wrote: »
    Absolute bollocks. The Irish have been involved in welfare fraud or criminality at every location in the diaspora. Irish people giving out about immigration isn't just ironic it's profoundly hypocritical.
    When you can tell the difference between a small country recovering from decades of severe depression and a large continent with enormous resources, and their relative ability to absorb immigrants, you can come back and talk about bollocks. We don't owe anyone a damn thing, and we certainly don't owe any favours to any economic migrants.


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    #88
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    SubjectSean wrote: »
    Absolute bollocks. The Irish have been involved in welfare fraud or criminality at every location in the diaspora.
    Some more than others
    Irish people giving out about immigration isn't just ironic it's profoundly hypocritical.
    Absolutely


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    #89
    Wertz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    Sorry, I can only speak from personal experience of my brief emigration and that of some friends; I went illegal in the US a few years back. I found work for a while doing what Americans wouldn't do, but lacking any sort of legal status or an SSN most employers just weren't interested and those that were were paying f*ck all. I eeked it out and when I could do so no longer, returned home. Out of 5 of us that went only 2 remained (through marraige to citizens). Both now hold down jobs legally but if they lose that job it's find another one or f*ck off; the yanks aren't interested in giving you social welfare....hell they'll barely give it to their own nationals. Even if I had been on a work visa I wouldn't have gotten any much help.
    To commit welfare fraud, there must first be a system to defraud that'll pay out for more than a few months, barring foodstamps. You sure as hell don't get rent allowance, child benefit, medical cards or a myriad of other handouts we see fit to furnish people with here. Since the US was Ireland's destination of choice, I feel my statement is accurate unless you can prove otherwise. I can't speak for Australian welfare system.
    I will however agree that benefit fraud was a mainstay of a lot of emigrants that chose the UK as their new home.
    ....and obviously you're going to get criminality everywhere to some extent, particularly amongst poorer immigrants....just like we're seeing in Irelan now and IMO will see a lot more of in the years to come.

    ....and that leads to another point: we let all and sundry in here with not even a check on criminal background? Even the yanks aren't that dumb...


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    #90
    HollyB
    Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭HollyB


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    When you can tell the difference between a small country recovering from decades of severe depression and a large continent with enormous resources, and their relative ability to absorb immigrants, you can come back and talk about bollocks. We don't owe anyone a damn thing, and we certainly don't owe any favours to any economic migrants.

    That's an excellent point. Ireland is a comparatively small country; there are limits to the number of immigrants the country can cope with.

    EU citizens have the right to come and go as they please, but much stricter controls should be enforced regarding non-EU immigrants - for example, work visas should be granted only if there are no suitably qualified EU citizens and employers should have to prove that they made every reasonable effort to recruit EU applicants.

    If 2,000 people are here illegally and subject to deportation, those 2,000 people should be deported - not just 40 of them.


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    #91
    HollyB
    Registered Users Posts: 361 ✭✭HollyB


    Wertz wrote: »
    ....and that leads to another point: we let all and sundry in here with not even a check on criminal background? Even the yanks aren't that dumb...

    Absolutely. And if an immigrant is breaking the law, he or she should be deported.


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