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Christians should not celebrate Halloween.

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    #62
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Fantastic trolltasic !


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    #63
    hairyheretic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    JimiTime wrote: »
    While its unfortunate that all the days and months are named after false Gods thanks to our Pagan conquerers

    'False Gods' would be a matter of opinion Jimi.

    As for conquerers, you might want to do a little research on just how christianity spread, and what it got up to as it did. Doesn't make for particularly pleasant reading at times.


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    #64
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Wicknight wrote: »
    So glorifying a pagan god is what you decide is glorifying a pagan god?

    How convenient :rolleyes:



    Neither does Halloween, but you don't mind saying that it is evil. People who go out trick or treating aren't glorying pagan gods (that isn't even supposed to be what the festivial was about), any more than you are when you say "Tuesday"

    You don't really believe that it is "Tyn's day", any more than the kids believe in witches and ghosts.

    Oh no he gave the rolleyes, he must now be right, and I'm an idiot. Whatever wicknight. i gave you an explaination more than you represented here. Its not good enough for you, i wont be loosing any sleep.


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    #65
    *Page*
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭*Page*


    "any more than the kids believe in witches and ghosts"
    I know of witches,
    my daughter knows what the night means and she will be painting her face red and scary to blend in the witches...

    Just because you dont believe doesn't mean the world doesnt...


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    #66
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    hairyheretic wrote: »
    'False Gods' would be a matter of opinion Jimi.

    Not to a faithful christian. Its quite simply, The living God, and false gods. Which is why the bible refers to Babylon as a godless nation. They worshipped many gods, but they didn't exist. Surely you know why i would refer to 'false gods', being a christian.
    As for conquerers, you might want to do a little research on just how christianity spread, and what it got up to as it did. Doesn't make for particularly pleasant reading at times.

    If you are referring to Catholocism, with its crusades etc, then thats got nothing to do with Christianity. There are many that claim to be christian, but true christians will be known by their fruits. if it contradicts christs teaching, then its not christian. So all the attrocities in the history of 'christianity' are simply not christian. Its like saying that 'christianity' is responsible for the attrocities that abusive priests cause. Christianity is not an organistation, its a way of life. If someones way of life goes against christs way, then it is not christian.


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    #67
    Hmm_Messiah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,964 ✭✭✭Hmm_Messiah


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Christians who dress up their kids and take them out ought to feel guilty because Halloween is the Devil's night. "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them." -Ephesians 5:11


    I often wonder would (or is ) Jesus smiling away or annoyed at the sense of seriousness and solemnity attributed to him.

    If you look at Halloween as a time for Kids, for their imagination, for simpler pleasures in and ever more complex world then I have no doubt what so ever that God would see it as a good thing .


    Addressing the seriousness you some give to the topic I am amused that people pronounce warnings ad criticisms of something they don't even take time to understand - even in its original incarnation Halloween has zero to do with demons etc, and the aspects regarding protection against evils, its a core catholic belief that evil exists an evil beings also, so where exactly is the problem

    I've always though god would prefer to see people smiling and happy enjoying his creations than than prone and worshipping - the idea of a worshipful god is at an extreme an expression of vanity and far removed from anythign I understand as christian


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    #68
    hairyheretic
    Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Not to a faithful christian. Its quite simply, The living God, and false gods. Which is why the bible refers to Babylon as a godless nation. They worshipped many gods, but they didn't exist. Surely you know why i would refer to 'false gods', being a christian.

    Certainly I understand why you'd said it. Just felt it worth pointing out that not everyone thinks that way.

    Of course, since neither position can be independently proven .... *shrugs*
    JimiTime wrote: »
    If you are referring to Catholocism, with its crusades etc, then thats got nothing to do with Christianity. There are many that claim to be christian, but true christians will be known by their fruits. if it contradicts christs teaching, then its not christian. So all the attrocities in the history of 'christianity' are simply not christian. Its like saying that 'christianity' is responsible for the attrocities that abusive priests cause. Christianity is not an organistation, its a way of life. If someones way of life goes against christs way, then it is not christian.

    If someone claims to be a christian, then the way they act will be how people will judge them and their beliefs. Especially if those acts are publicly being proclaimed as being done in the name of your God, backed up with the justification offered by interpretation of biblical passages.


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    #69
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    i gave you an explaination more than you represented here.

    You didn't give an explanation Jimi, you gave us the old oh, well yes that is ... erm .. different ... excuse after you asked for other examples of pagan influence in our society.

    Simple fact of the matter is that the majority of Christians see Halloween as perfectly harmless, as harmless as you saying "Tuesday", and they don't partake in it as a ritual to anything other than their children.

    It isn't a ritual to a pagan god. What part of that do you not understand?


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    #70
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    I pastor a church that contains a fair number of non-nationals, including a couple of hundred Africans. Most of those Africans do not see witchcraft as being something harmless or as a bit of fun, in fact some of them bear scars on their bodies that were inflicted during occult rituals. Child sacrifice is still a feature of witchcraft as practiced in certain parts of the world.

    Each year, on 31st October, we have a children's "Hallelujah Party." Most of our church kids participate and now we are seeing increasing numbers of kids come from the surrounding neighbourhood because it is perceived by them to be much more fun than Halloween. It is a fancy dress party (but 'scary' costumes are not allowed) and the kids play games, have food, and usually watch some kind of cartoon movie.

    I personally believe that Halloween is not a good thing. The emphasis on witchcraft and the occult is not good for kids. The entire concept of trick or treating is that of the protection racket - give us what we want or we'll make you suffer in some way. Also, the sight of little kids wandering around in darkness and approaching strangers' doors (often unaccompanied by an adult) must be a paedophile pervert's favourite fantasy. However, I think it is better for Christians to provide a better alternative rather than ranting or raving against Halloween.


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    #71
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    I pastor a church that contains a fair number of non-nationals, including a couple of hundred Africans. Most of those Africans do not see witchcraft as being something harmless or as a bit of fun, in fact some of them bear scars on their bodies that were inflicted during occult rituals. Child sacrifice is still a feature of witchcraft as practiced in certain parts of the world.

    Thats great PDN, but Halloween isn't about witch-craft. Even when it was a pagan festival.
    PDN wrote: »
    Each year, on 31st October, we have a children's "Hallelujah Party." Most of our church kids participate and now we are seeing increasing numbers of kids come from the surrounding neighbourhood because it is perceived by them to be much more fun than Halloween. It is a fancy dress party (but 'scary' costumes are not allowed) and the kids play games, have food, and usually watch some kind of cartoon movie.

    No scary costumes allowed? Where is the fun in that?

    It is part of natural human development to be harmlessly scared from time to time as part of play, it helps children develop an adult sense of the world and allows them to explore real fear in a safe environment.

    There is such a thing as being over protective


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    #72
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Wicknight wrote: »
    You didn't give an explanation Jimi, you gave us the old oh, well yes that is ... erm .. different ... excuse after you asked for other examples of pagan influence in our society.

    Simple fact of the matter is that the majority of Christians see Halloween as perfectly harmless, as harmless as you saying "Tuesday", and they don't partake in it as a ritual to anything other than their children.

    It isn't a ritual to a pagan god. What part of that do you not understand?


    Ok wicknight, ok..... now wheres that ignore button.


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    #73
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Thats great PDN, but Halloween isn't about witch-craft. Even when it was a pagan festival.



    No scary costumes allowed? Where is the fun in that?

    It is part of natural human development to be harmlessly scared from time to time as part of play, it helps children develop an adult sense of the world and allows them to explore real fear in a safe environment.

    The most frightened any of my children were on Hallowe'en was my eldest daughter at the age of two was scared to almost death by a guy in an ape suit. Scary could be anything. My kids say the scariest outfit they could imagine would be dad in spandex.

    There is such a thing as being over protective

    But the Christian environment is providing an alternative to something that the culture finds to very uncomfortable. And possibly Oct 31 in certain African cultures has been utilized to practice witchcraft amongst other rituals that are detrimental to the person.

    And possibly the parents of the children wish them to participate in a Western European tradition yet protect them from the evils they associate with the time.

    We have no right to judge their actions and I think wicknight PDN has explained clearly the reason for his church having the party in this manner.


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    #74
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    PDN wrote: »
    Each year, on 31st October, we have a children's "Hallelujah Party." Most of our church kids participate and now we are seeing increasing numbers of kids come from the surrounding neighbourhood because it is perceived by them to be much more fun than Halloween. It is a fancy dress party (but 'scary' costumes are not allowed) and the kids play games, have food, and usually watch some kind of cartoon movie.

    can i ask. Why do you do this? is it so the children don't feel left out? Why on 'Hallelujah party', do they dress up? Just curious.
    The entire concept of trick or treating is that of the protection racket - give us what we want or we'll make you suffer in some way.

    The trick or treat was never done when i was a kid, it was 'help the halloween party'.


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    #75
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    PDN wrote: »
    Each year, on 31st October, we have a children's "Hallelujah Party." Most of our church kids participate and now we are seeing increasing numbers of kids come from the surrounding neighbourhood because it is perceived by them to be much more fun than Halloween. It is a fancy dress party (but 'scary' costumes are not allowed) and the kids play games, have food, and usually watch some kind of cartoon movie.
    So, basically, you've censored Halloween?
    PDN wrote: »
    I personally believe that Halloween is not a good thing. The emphasis on witchcraft and the occult is not good for kids.
    Neither is it good for kids to shield them from everything you deem to be "evil".


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    #76
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    JimiTime wrote: »
    can i ask. Why do you do this? is it so the children don't feel left out? Why on 'Hallelujah party', do they dress up? Just curious.

    Because we want the kids to have fun. The non-Christian kids who attend tell us that they find a proper fancy dress party much more fun than what they usually do at Halloween.


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    #77
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    djpbarry careful your sarcasm is quite a bit annoying and your last assertion that there is a danger of paedophiles in PDN's church is close to a false attack that in the USA could get you sued.

    Anything more like this and you will be banned.

    Add to the conversation.


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    #78
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    BrianCalgary wrote: »
    djpbarry careful your sarcasm is quite a bit annoying and your last assertion that there is a danger of paedophiles in PDN's church is close to a false attack that in the USA could get you sued.
    That is quite clearly not what I was implying but I have removed the offending comment none-the-less.


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    #79
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    To the OP: The Devil doesn't have a night if one has enough faith in God, every day is His. Therefore Halloween is not the Devil's night, unless people are indeed worshipping idols of the devil or anyone else for that matter.


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    #80
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    djpbarry wrote: »
    So, basically, you've censored Halloween?

    In our function, on our property, yes, we have censored Halloween. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. We also censor anything that glorifies gun culture, violence against women, racism etc.
    Neither is it good for kids to shield them from everything you deem to be "evil".
    On what basis do you make this claim? I've raised one very well-adjusted young teenager who shows absolutely no ill effects of being shielded from evil while she was growing up.
    Yeah, eight-year olds can be damn scary. I let them clean out my house every year for fear of what they might do to me and my family.
    Teach kids that these principles are OK when they are young and they will hold to them when they are older. Incidentally, I once had over 1000 euros of damage caused to my car by a kid who looked to be 8 years old. I wouldn't pay him money to 'mind' my car while I visited a dying baby in hospital.
    That's a fair point. The kids are much better off going to church where they'll be safe from paedop...
    They certainly will. Our children's workers have to adhere to a very strict child safety policy. No child is ever left alone with an adult.


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    #81
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    PDN wrote: »
    In our function, on our property, yes, we have censored Halloween. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. We also censor anything that glorifies gun culture, violence against women, racism etc.
    And what age must a child reach before they are allowed to see the world for what it really is?
    PDN wrote: »
    On what basis do you make this claim? I've raised one very well-adjusted young teenager who shows absolutely no ill effects of being shielded from evil while she was growing up.
    That's between you and your daughter - I'm not going to comment on how you should or should not raise your kids.
    PDN wrote: »
    Teach kids that these principles are OK when they are young and they will hold to them when they are older. Incidentally, I once had over 1000 euros of damage caused to my car by a kid who looked to be 8 years old. I wouldn't pay him money to 'mind' my car while I visited a dying baby in hospital.
    Just because a kid engages in trick-or-treating, it does not mean that he or she will be more inclined to smash up someone's car! I'm pretty sure I played with toy guns when I was a kid but I have no desire to go on a murderous rampage.


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    #82
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    djpbarry wrote: »
    And what age must a child reach before they are allowed to see the world for what it really is?

    That depends on what part of the world you are talking about. I don't believe, for example, any responsible parent would expose their infant to hard-core pornography on the grounds that 'they need to see the real world'. We all draw the line somewhere. If parents think that exposing their kids to Halloween, or indeed to listening to rap with lyrics about killing gays or beating up women, is OK then that's their call - but it ain't going to happen in our church.


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    #83
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    PDN wrote: »
    In our function, on our property, yes, we have censored Halloween. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. We also censor anything that glorifies gun culture, violence against women, racism etc.

    Yeh, I didn't get djpbarry's point there myself:confused:
    On what basis do you make this claim? I've raised one very well-adjusted young teenager who shows absolutely no ill effects of being shielded from evil while she was growing up.

    or here??
    Teach kids that these principles are OK when they are young and they will hold to them when they are older. Incidentally, I once had over 1000 euros of damage caused to my car by a kid who looked to be 8 years old. I wouldn't pay him money to 'mind' my car while I visited a dying baby in hospital.

    I'd change that will to 'could' and it'd be a good point. As for the 8 year old scenario. i have seen kids as young as 5 smash up cars in Michaels estate in inchicore. Also, 2 12 year olds killed jamie Bulger. I've seen school windows get smashed, houses bricked, and residents hassled. Believe me, an 8 year old, or rather a group of them can be very dangerous and intimidating. you might not get it in the more 'prosperous' area's, but in the areas where you find bad parenting you find these awful kids. Sad, but fact.
    They certainly will. Our children's workers have to adhere to a very strict child safety policy. No child is ever left alone with an adult.


    And what a sad state of affairs it is. That you cant leave an adult alone with a child. How far this world has fallen:(


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    #84
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    PDN wrote: »
    That depends on what part of the world you are talking about.
    I was referring to your church.
    PDN wrote: »
    I don't believe, for example, any responsible parent would expose their infant to hard-core pornography on the grounds that 'they need to see the real world'.
    I never suggested otherwise.
    PDN wrote: »
    If parents think that exposing their kids to Halloween, or indeed to listening to rap with lyrics about killing gays or beating up women, is OK then that's their call - but it ain't going to happen in our church.
    You cannot possibly put Halloween into the same bracket as homophobia and wife-beating.


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    #85
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    JimiTime wrote: »
    As for the 8 year old scenario. i have seen kids as young as 5 smash up cars in Michaels estate in inchicore. Also, 2 12 year olds killed jamie Bulger. I've seen school windows get smashed, houses bricked, and residents hassled. Believe me, an 8 year old, or rather a group of them can be very dangerous and intimidating. you might not get it in the more 'prosperous' area's, but in the areas where you find bad parenting you find these awful kids.
    Hardly the same as an 8-year-old trick-or-treater. There are some messed-up kids in the world - I never said otherwise. But suggesting that a kid is going to become an "evil" little so-and-so because they went trick-or-treating at Halloween is ridiculous.


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    #86
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    JimiTime wrote:

    I'd change that will to 'could' and it'd be a good point. As for the 8 year old scenario. i have seen kids as young as 5 smash up cars in Michaels estate in inchicore. Also, 2 12 year olds killed jamie Bulger. I've seen school windows get smashed, houses bricked, and residents hassled. Believe me, an 8 year old, or rather a group of them can be very dangerous and intimidating. you might not get it in the more 'prosperous' area's, but in the areas where you find bad parenting you find these awful kids. Sad, but fact.

    So halloween is bad parenting and leads to crime... right.


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    #87
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    djpbarry wrote: »
    You cannot possibly put Halloween into the same bracket as homophobia and wife-beating.

    Of course I didn't put Halloween in the same bracket as homophobia and wife beating. I put Halloween (something that glorifies the occult) in the same sentence as rap music lyrics (something that glorifies wife-beating and homophobia). Actually, you can put anything you like in the same bracket. It doesn't mean that you are saying that they are of the same magnitude, but it is a perfectly acceptable practice in a debate to use an extreme example to show the invalid nature of an absolutist argument. I was demonstrating that no-one, apart from a complete moron, really believes that children should be exposed to a completely uncensored view of the world.


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    #88
    Owen
    Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    JimiTime wrote: »
    And what a sad state of affairs it is. That you cant leave an adult alone with a child. How far this world has fallen:(

    It's always been that bloody way! Back in Roman times it wasn't unusual for young girls to be married to much older men, and likewise, slavery existed where young nubile girls were dragged into harems. Society is just less tolerant of it now.

    And as long as I can remember, I don't know any parent who would leave their child with an unknown adult. Kids have been told for hundreds of years 'don't speak to strangers'.


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    #89
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    bluewolf wrote: »
    So halloween is bad parenting and leads to crime... right.

    That certainly is not what Jimi said. He said that bad parenting contributes to kids who can be very intimidating at an early age and who are prepared to cause criminal damage unless you meet their monetary demands.

    I personally think that allowing children to participate in trick & treating is bad parenting, but then so is so much else. Let's face it, we have very large numbers of obnoxious youth in this country that are evidence of very poor parenting skills. As a nation we don't seem to be very good at this parenting lark.


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    #90
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    PDN wrote: »
    rap music lyrics (something that glorifies wife-beating and homophobia).
    Bit of a generalisation there. Just out of curiousity, what music are the kids allowed to listen to?
    PDN wrote: »
    I was demonstrating that no-one, apart from a complete moron, really believes that children should be exposed to a completely uncensored view of the world.
    When did I suggest otherwise? What I am saying is that believing that Halloween will somehow corrupt a child is a bit daft - it's just a bit of fun.

    Just about everyone I know dressed up at Halloween (myself included) and we all turned out fine.


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    #91
    Owen
    Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    PDN wrote: »
    I personally think that allowing children to participate in trick & treating is bad parenting

    Then I for one am delighted you're not my Father. Hallowe'en is a wonderful night for kids to dress up, not just as monsters, but also like Superheros, and role models. They get treated especially well by neighbours, and get given gifts - thereby setting the example to kids that it's better to give than receive (An example they'd appreciate when they get older). It's something that bonds a community, and builds a relationship between parent and child too.


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