DART+ (DART Expansion)

bk · 23-03-2018 9:51pm

thomasj wrote: »

Sorry I mean they share the same line by drumcondra.

Based on the report they seem to indicate that the reasoning for whitworth seems to be that drumcondra wouldn't be a suitable interchange station because of its elevation etc.

I have my doubts whether the platforms on the midland line side would be for anything more than m3 parkway services.

Ah right, got you. I think the map in the report is purely a graphic and I assume not indicative of what will happen.

Drumcondra wouldn't be a suitable location as only one line passes Drumcondra station. You could try and route both Kildare and Maynooth trains through Drumocndra Station, but then you would be creating another bottlekneck. By using Whitworth road you can use both the Drumcondra line and the Docklands line with a platform crossover between them. Gives you more flexibility.

thomasj · 23-03-2018 9:53pm

Grandeeod wrote:

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and suggest that it all goes back to the original Platform 11 plan to run Kildare trains to Spencer Dock/Docklands. Obviously this predates GCD as things stand now. While the original P11 plan was solid in 2003, its alarming that the current map suggests the same thing happening now. As I've already said, it looks like some FG hacks have dug up a decent plan from 15 years ago and are trying to implant it on the current Metro idea. It doesn't bode well for any credibility in relation to building a Metro.

It does look strangely outdated , even gives a link from drumcondra to docklands which is not possible.

thomasj · 23-03-2018 9:56pm

bk wrote:

Drumcondra wouldn't be a suitable location as only one line passes Drumcondra station. You could try and route both Kildare and Maynooth trains through Drumocndra Station, but then you would be creating another bottlekneck. By using Whitworth road you can use both the Drumcondra line and the Docklands line with a platform crossover between them.

Ah time will tell but the just looks out of place. Especially given that it's on the dart extension page on the NTA website.

bk · 23-03-2018 10:06pm

thomasj wrote: »

It does look strangely outdated , even gives a link from drumcondra to docklands which is not possible.

I mean it wouldn't be difficult to expand Docklands and have the Drumcondra line terminate there if you wanted to. Parts of the end of the Drumcondra line are only a few meters away from the Docklands platform.

I suspect Docklands will be increased with a few more platforms as part of the expansion plan and it would make sense to tie the Drumcondra line into it properly.

Grandeeod · 23-03-2018 10:16pm

bk wrote: »

I mean it wouldn't be difficult to expand Docklands and have the Drumcondra line terminate there if you wanted to. Parts of the end of the Drumcondra line are only a few meters away from the Docklands platform.

I suspect Docklands will be increased with a few more platforms as part of the expansion plan and it would make sense to tie the Drumcondra line into it properly.

Not if the latest developers of the site have anything to do with it. Spencer Dock North is live again. Do the research. Johnny Ronan and CIE are back in business!

bk · 23-03-2018 10:25pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Not if the latest developers of the site have anything to do with it. Spencer Dock North is live again. Do the research. Johnny Ronan and CIE are back in business!

Oh god! :mad:

But it dosen't have to be Spencer Dock, though that would be preferable. It could just be extra platforms at Docklands station. Looks to be lots of space there.

Grandeeod · 23-03-2018 10:39pm

bk wrote: »

Oh god! :mad:

But it dosen't have to be Spencer Dock, though that would be preferable. It could just be extra platforms at Docklands station. Looks to be lots of space there.

Docklands station is in Spencer Dock north. The site was always divided between north and South. The south is more or less developed apart from Ronan's latest plans to redevelop the last of the CIE buildings. The red brick finished ones. Hotels and all the rest. The Docklands station site will be next. That's where DU was to begin.

bk · 23-03-2018 10:47pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Docklands station is in Spencer Dock north. The site was always divided between north and South. The south is more or less developed apart from Ronan's latest plans to redevelop the last of the CIE buildings. The red brick finished ones. Hotels and all the rest. The Docklands station site will be next. That's where DU was to begin.

Grrhhh... Mad stuff. So what is happening with the current Docklands station?

Crazy to throw away such vital land for transport infrastructure like that!

thomasj · 23-03-2018 11:09pm

Grandeeod wrote:

Docklands station is in Spencer Dock north. The site was always divided between north and South. The south is more or less developed apart from Ronan's latest plans to redevelop the last of the CIE buildings. The red brick finished ones. Hotels and all the rest. The Docklands station site will be next. That's where DU was to begin.

CPO possible ?

MJohnston · 23-03-2018 11:13pm

I doubt they would need to CPO it, I mean it's an active CIE yard for the most part? If Ronan really wants to proceed, I'm sure they could work out an air-rights proposal instead.

Grandeeod · 23-03-2018 11:20pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I doubt they would need to CPO it, I mean it's an active CIE yard for the most part? If Ronan really wants to proceed, I'm sure they could work out an air-rights proposal instead.

Its not a CIE active yard and hasn't been since the mid 2000s. It was originally part of the Treasury Holdings/CIE agreement to redevelop under the guise of the Spencer Dock Development Company.

MJohnston · 23-03-2018 11:29pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Its not a CIE active yard and hasn't been since the mid 2000s. It was originally part of the Treasury Holdings/CIE agreement to redevelop under the guise of the Spencer Dock Development Company.

Hmm, someone forgot to tell CIE, they're running trains through there constantly! I used to live facing it and would be driven mad by the constant train movements.

sdanseo · 23-03-2018 11:30pm

Earlier in the thread I mentioned I had emailed the Minister as well as my local FG TD. While I haven't had an official conclusive response back from Alan Farrell yet directly, and have continued to be completely ignored by the Minister without so much as a basic acknowledgement, Alan had advised me he would deal with the matter by means of a PQ and I believe the below is the result. tl;dr, nothing really new to see here.

818. Deputy Alan Farrell ... asked the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport ... the status of the DART underground as distinct from the Metro and Luas with specific reference to the planning for the project; the timeframe for its consideration; the timeframe for the construction of a link between Connolly and Heuston stations; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11839/18]

Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport (Deputy Shane Ross): ... I wish to advise the Deputy that in the recently published National Development Plan (NDP), the DART Expansion Programme is identified as a key investment priority comprising a series of projects that will create a full metropolitan area DART Network for Dublin with all of the lines linked and connected. The estimated cost is €2 billion with an estimated completion date is 2027.

The initial sequencing of investment will focus on delivery of non-underground tunnel elements of the programme using the recently opened rail link and existing connector tunnel under the Phoenix Park. This includes buying additional fleet for the DART network and measures such as re-signalling, junction and station changes to provide expanded services. The next step will be to provide fast, high-frequency electrified services to Drogheda on the Northern Line, Celbridge/Hazelhatch on the Kildare Line, Maynooth and M3 Parkway on the Maynooth/Sligo Line, while continuing to provide DART services on the South-Eastern Line as far south as Greystones. It will also include new stations to provide interchange with bus, LUAS and Metro networks.

The significant benefit to using the recently opened rail link and existing connector tunnel under the Phoenix Park and the proposed sequence of investment, is that it will enable additional passenger services to be put in place much earlier using existing infrastructure with some enhancements. This integrated rail network will provide a core, high-capacity transit system for the region and will deliver a very substantial increase in peak-hour capacity on all lines from Drogheda, Maynooth, Celbridge/Hazelhatch and Greystones.

The route for the remaining element of the overall DART Expansion Programme, the DART Underground Tunnel, will be established and protected to allow for its future delivery.

thomasj · 23-03-2018 11:34pm

Grandeeod wrote:

Its not a CIE active yard and hasn't been since the mid 2000s. It was originally part of the Treasury Holdings/CIE agreement to redevelop under the guise of the Spencer Dock Development Company.

Yeah I was going to say is it not the same circumstances wrt the proposed letting of the Boston sidings?

Grandeeod · 23-03-2018 11:35pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Hmm, someone forgot to tell CIE, they're running trains through there constantly! I used to live facing it and would be driven mad by the constant train movements.

You've got the wrong yard. You may be thinking of the yard that replaced it down by East Wall.

Niall Finnegan · 23-03-2018 11:39pm

At this stage in time there is no way DU will be built in any reasonable time, but that doesn’t mean we can’t make use of the current infrastructure to build a great DART system. The routes suggested in DU are definitely the most preferable (Maynooth/M3 - Bray/Greystones & Celbridge- Balbriggan (Drogheda?) ) and in order to maintain a proper system these are the only way to go in terms of connectivity. I’m no expert and don’t have a definite solution but to make this work some kind of ‘Connolly North’ will need to be built to facilitate trains coming from the Drumcondra line to continue onto the Northern line. This would be a large scale engineering product in order to reverse the direction of tracks coming into Connolly and would likely involve lots of CPO’s but this is the way forward in the absence of DU. As part of these proposals, all Maynooth/M3 trains would use the current docklands branch and skip Drumcondra and enter Connolly using an upgraded to dual track link already present and continue south. There is always the concern of northern line congestion but a solution such as this largely emulates DU and I’ll leave it up to the experts to smoothen this out!

Grandeeod · 23-03-2018 11:40pm

thomasj wrote: »

Yeah I was going to say is it not the same circumstances wrt the proposed letting of the Boston sidings?

Same kind of CIE/Developer deal as is the Tara street tower thing. All going back nearly 20 odd years.

MJohnston · 23-03-2018 11:45pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

You've got the wrong yard. You may be thinking of the yard that replaced it down by East Wall.

Sure - my point is that trains continually use the tracks that pass north of Docklands station to reach that part of the yard. Docklands station is also in full active use. So where exactly is Spencer Dock North supposed to go?

roadmaster · 24-03-2018 12:53am

Grandeeod wrote: »

Docklands station is in Spencer Dock north. The site was always divided between north and South. The south is more or less developed apart from Ronan's latest plans to redevelop the last of the CIE buildings. The red brick finished ones. Hotels and all the rest. The Docklands station site will be next. That's where DU was to begin.

Surely they could expand docklands platforms and then simply build over them with the station below. You get a bigger station and more apartments/offices and every one is happy

Colonel Claptrap · 24-03-2018 1:52am

Niall Finnegan wrote: »

At this stage in time there is no way DU will be built in any reasonable time, but that doesn’t mean we can’t make use of the current infrastructure to build a great DART system. The routes suggested in DU are definitely the most preferable (Maynooth/M3 - Bray/Greystones & Celbridge- Balbriggan (Drogheda?) ) and in order to maintain a proper system these are the only way to go in terms of connectivity. I’m no expert and don’t have a definite solution but to make this work some kind of ‘Connolly North’ will need to be built to facilitate trains coming from the Drumcondra line to continue onto the Northern line. This would be a large scale engineering product in order to reverse the direction of tracks coming into Connolly and would likely involve lots of CPO’s but this is the way forward in the absence of DU. As part of these proposals, all Maynooth/M3 trains would use the current docklands branch and skip Drumcondra and enter Connolly using an upgraded to dual track link already present and continue south. There is always the concern of northern line congestion but a solution such as this largely emulates DU and I’ll leave it up to the experts to smoothen this out!

I like your "Connolly North" idea. It's certainly an engineering challenge!

It would mean ripping Ballybough apart, somehow getting over the Tolka as well as Annesley bridge to then cut through Fairview Park (without touching a single tree of course), knock down the DART maintenance shed and have enough of an acute angle to join the northern line before Clontarf station.

KvrqD

bk · 24-03-2018 10:11am

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

I like your "Connolly North" idea. It's certainly an engineering challenge!

It would mean ripping Ballybough apart, somehow getting over the Tolka as well as Annesley bridge to then cut through Fairview Park (without touching a single tree of course), knock down the DART maintenance shed and have enough of an acute angle to join the northern line before Clontarf station.

Yes, I was just looking at it. I don't think any of that will happen.

I suspect what is planned is the following:

I think the plan will simply be to terminate some trains from the Maynooth and Kildare lines at an expanded Docklands. People from these trains who want to go south change at Whitworth Road for trains that continue south.

Yes that would suck for those coming from the West and wanting to go up the Northern line, they would need to make two changes. But I can't see any way of avoiding that.

bk · 24-03-2018 10:19am

Grandeeod, are you sure about that property development?

I'm talking to about the land directly East of the Docklands platform.

I can't find any planning applications for that area or any news about it. It is also outside of the Docklands special development zone.

I can only find planning apps and articles about the Spencer Place development, which is to the south of it.

I could be totally wrong on this, but I just want to make sure we are talking about the same place?

roadmaster · 24-03-2018 11:07am

bk wrote: »

Grandeeod, are you sure about that property development?

I'm talking to about the land directly East of the Docklands platform.

I can't find any planning applications for that area or any news about it. It is also outside of the Docklands special development zone.

I can only find planning apps and articles about the Spencer Place development, which is to the south of it.

I could be totally wrong on this, but I just want to make sure we are talking about the same place?

It may of being part of this a long time ago

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/report-backs-treasury-on-docklands-site-contract-with-cie-1.1123857?mode=amp

This development which had being delivered in the main was treasury holdings while the new developments there are being carried out by Ronan real estate among others

Grandeeod · 24-03-2018 12:29pm

MJohnston wrote: »

Sure - my point is that trains continually use the tracks that pass north of Docklands station to reach that part of the yard. Docklands station is also in full active use. So where exactly is Spencer Dock North supposed to go?

Right next to Docklands station. Originally Docklands station was to be demolished and replaced further east on the site as a DU station.

roadmaster wrote: »

Surely they could expand docklands platforms and then simply build over them with the station below. You get a bigger station and more apartments/offices and every one is happy

All possible alright.

bk wrote: »

Grandeeod, are you sure about that property development?

I'm talking to about the land directly East of the Docklands platform.

I can't find any planning applications for that area or any news about it. It is also outside of the Docklands special development zone.

I can only find planning apps and articles about the Spencer Place development, which is to the south of it.

I could be totally wrong on this, but I just want to make sure we are talking about the same place?

Apologies BK, my original statement wasn't concise enough. I'm drawing my conclusion based on the latest re-emergence of Johnny Ronan and his association with CIE. He is currently involved in the Tara street project and the last remaining site in Spencer Dock south. He was also in the running for the Boston sidings project until another developer won out. CIE are also looking for a partner to develop the car park at the back of Connolly station. Considering CIE still own the site we are talking about, it stands to reason that it will be developed sooner than later. With DU out of the picture for now and with CIE's poor record in maximising rail infrastructure, there is a very credible possibility that development will take place at the expense of expanding rail facilities in the area.

murphaph · 24-03-2018 12:36pm

I wonder should all CIE lands be transferred to TII for a modicum of safekeeping. CIE, especially Irish Rail have a terribly track record (pun intended) in this regard.

Khuitlio · 24-03-2018 4:50pm

Unlikely but is there any chance that they could build a station similar to the one proposed for Spencer Dock in DU as part of DART Expansion? That way, the land can be developed and you have the first underground station for DU already in place.

Grandeeod · 24-03-2018 5:14pm

murphaph wrote: »

I wonder should all CIE lands be transferred to TII for a modicum of safekeeping. CIE, especially Irish Rail have a terribly track record (pun intended) in this regard.

A good idea. However as you know its was successive Governments that encouraged CIE to sell off land and also get involved in property speculation.

Grandeeod · 24-03-2018 5:16pm

Khuitlio wrote: »

Unlikely but is there any chance that they could build a station similar to the one proposed for Spencer Dock in DU as part of DART Expansion? That way, the land can be developed and you have the first underground station for DU already in place.

Considering DU has gone backwards into a redesign scenario, that particular question is up in the air.

bk · 24-03-2018 11:07pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Apologies BK, my original statement wasn't concise enough. I'm drawing my conclusion based on the latest re-emergence of Johnny Ronan and his association with CIE. He is currently involved in the Tara street project and the last remaining site in Spencer Dock south. He was also in the running for the Boston sidings project until another developer won out. CIE are also looking for a partner to develop the car park at the back of Connolly station. Considering CIE still own the site we are talking about, it stands to reason that it will be developed sooner than later. With DU out of the picture for now and with CIE's poor record in maximising rail infrastructure, there is a very credible possibility that development will take place at the expense of expanding rail facilities in the area.

No bother and thanks for the info.

Hopefully with the emergence of this new plan, the government will tell CIE to cop themselves on and prioritise public transport needs.

Not that I'm against the idea of building on or near stations. It is very common in Europe and Asia to build big shopping centers and offices over stations. It can help fund public transport and can lead to more useful overall locations for the public.

But, of course the needs of public transport need to come first and then only secondary the property.

The problem with the way we do it here, is that there seems to be a total disconnect from the property development and the public transport needs. All they seem to want to do is sell off the land and then plunk a building down on it with little or no connection with the station.

And then there is the question of if it is sensible for CIE to simply sell off the land. Would it not be better for them to develop it themselves, hire a builder to build it, but keep it themselves and rent it out and use the proceeds of the rent for the next 50 years or whatever to help subsidise public transport.

Sorry about the rant, this sort of nonsense just pisses me off.

BTW I think they may find it hard to develop this land. It seems to be outside the docklands SDZ, which means it would have to go through the regular planning process and think much lower height restrictions would apply. Plus there are houses just behind this plot which would complicate things. So I don't think this area would be a straight forward development.

Of course those houses would also complicate expanding Docklands station.

BTW this video might interest some here, it is about the Hudson Yard development, building a massive new district in New York City over a massive Rail Yard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewSjmhCD5ew

The proceeds of this the MTA have used to build new subway extensions.

sdanseo · 24-03-2018 11:23pm

roadmaster wrote: »

Surely they could expand docklands platforms and then simply build over them with the station below. You get a bigger station and more apartments/offices and every one is happy

The existing space immediately surrounding docklands is plenty for a station and portal for DU. They can build away on Spencer Dock - and should, sinc Dublin is in dire need of office space and the whole reason for building these infrastructure projects is to stimulate exactly this sort of developments among others.

The only limitation I would put on it is an absolute minimum of 12 storeys with preference for 16-24 storeys, but that's a debate for a different thread.

bk wrote: »

Grrhhh... Mad stuff. So what is happening with the current Docklands station?

Crazy to throw away such vital land for transport infrastructure like that!

bk wrote: »

Not that I'm against the idea of building on or near stations. It is very common in Europe and Asia to build big shopping centers and offices over stations. It can help fund public transport and can lead to more useful overall locations for the public.

But, of course the needs of public transport need to come first and then only secondary the property.

It would appear that in any event, govt have at least promised to preserve the DU route, which is only a good thing. Your suggestion re building it in tandem with private development is a great idea, the problem is that it stymies private development until the DU project can proceed (although with developmer contributions, that process could be sped up maybe?).

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

I like your "Connolly North" idea. It's certainly an engineering challenge!

It would mean ripping Ballybough apart, somehow getting over the Tolka as well as Annesley bridge to then cut through Fairview Park (without touching a single tree of course), knock down the DART maintenance shed and have enough of an acute angle to join the northern line before Clontarf station.

Ballybough is in need of regeneration anyway. Could be a good excuse to kill two birds with one stone, perform a Ballymun-esque hosuing project around the improved infrastructure. Lots of references in this thread and that regarding Metrolink to examples of where improved infrastructure has improved entire districts for the better. (For those interested, La Défense in Paris is a great case in point).

bk wrote: »

BTW this video might interest some here, it is about the Hudson Yard development, building a massive new district in New York City over a massive Rail Yard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewSjmhCD5ew

The proceeds of this the MTA have used to build new subway extensions.

Always thought that massive area of Manhattan was so badly wasted. Didn't know it was being redeveloped, excellent to hear.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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