So is prostitution to be outlawed in Ireland or what?

Under_Graduate · 31-10-2015 12:57am #1

I assume this will be moved to another forum.
If so, please go ahead and do so. Don't just lock it.

I heard on the radio recently that a new law is to be introduced, prohibiting prostitution in Ireland.

I know the law as it stands, prohibits the soliciting of sex, and the running of a brothel.

So there's a new law to be in place that outlaws the purchase or sale of any kind of sexual service, is that correct?

Does that mean that massage parlors around the country will now also be scrutinized by law enforcement on a regular basis also?

Will website such as Craigslist and Backpage Ireland be prohibited from the advertisement of such services?

If this is true, when is this law coming into effect?

The Pheasant2 · 31-10-2015 1:03am

Since Prostitution is illegal but porn isn't, I wonder if a man was caught with a hooker, but had filmed it could he use the defence that he was simply filming a porno?

Tigger · 31-10-2015 1:05am

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Since Prostitution is illegal but porn isn't, I wonder if a man was caught with a hooker, but had filmed it could he use the defence that he was simply filming a porno?

i thought that was a common loophole

One eyed Jack · 31-10-2015 1:05am

Here you go OP:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR15000487

jamesbere · 31-10-2015 1:05am

Outlawing it will only push it deeper underground, where there will be no regulation or restrictions.

Under_Graduate · 31-10-2015 1:10am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Here you go OP:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR15000487

Minister Fitzgerald also today confirmed that she is examining the possibility of introducing proposals which would decriminalise a person offering sexual services from the existing offences of soliciting and loitering for the purposes of prostitution under the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993. Any proposals brought forward in this area will need to ensure that appropriate tools remain to address any public nuisance concerns which may arise.

That article doesn't specify exactly how that's a modification now.

One eyed Jack · 31-10-2015 1:14am

Under_Graduate wrote: »

Minister Fitzgerald also today confirmed that she is examining the possibility of introducing proposals which would decriminalise a person offering sexual services from the existing offences of soliciting and loitering for the purposes of prostitution under the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Act 1993. Any proposals brought forward in this area will need to ensure that appropriate tools remain to address any public nuisance concerns which may arise.

That article doesn't specify exactly how that's a modification now.

There's one modification right there?

newacc2015 · 31-10-2015 1:19am

Yes the purchase of sex is being outlawed, as in the eyes of campaigners "no women would willing offer sexual services for money". They believe all women in the industry are being forced into it from trafficking, pimps etc.(they ignore the men working in the industry). They seem to think the Swedish model was a massive success. But it hasnt been entirely effective.

Germany and certain parts of Nevada has the best model of sex industry. Regulated brothels, were the women are all self-employed. They are in a safe working environment and get regularly tested for STIs.

Outlawing any vice for morality reasons has yet to work. Regulation is nearly always better

nokia69 · 31-10-2015 1:31am

Under_Graduate wrote: »

So there's a new law to be in place that outlaws the purchase or sale of any kind of sexual service, is that correct?

AFAIK the law will only target men paying for sex with women, but since the feminazis are involved god knows what else might also be in the law

Under_Graduate wrote: »

Does that mean that massage parlors around the country will now also be scrutinized by law enforcement on a regular basis also?

they are illegal already and are scrutinized all the time by the guards, they are easy to find, its a discrete but not really an underground activity

Under_Graduate wrote: »

Will website such as Craigslist and Backpage Ireland be prohibited from the advertisement of such services?

I doubt it, could they close down a website based in another country, or could they block it, in any case I don't think many people use cragislist, another site seems to dominate the market

Under_Graduate wrote: »

If this is true, when is this law coming into effect?

I don't know, soon

fill your boots before then

myshirt · 31-10-2015 1:34am

The irony of the whole thing is that free sex is actually more expensive than paid-for sex.

One eyed Jack · 31-10-2015 1:44am

newacc2015 wrote: »

Yes the purchase of sex is being outlawed, as in the eyes of campaigners "no women would willing offer sexual services for money". They believe all women in the industry are being forced into it from trafficking, pimps etc.(they ignore the men working in the industry). They seem to think the Swedish model was a massive success. But it hasnt been entirely effective.

Who's this "they" exactly? You can suggest that the 80 odd or so women's welfare organisations may ignore men working in the industry, but there are some organisations and individual campaigners that don't. And not all campaigners hold the views about women working in the industry that you seem to think they do either.

Whatever way you want to argue it, the proposals in the Sexual Offences bill would bring our laws into line with the EU Directive which has already mandated that all countries in the EU will adopt laws based on the Swedish model.

Germany and certain parts of Nevada has the best model of sex industry. Regulated brothels, were the women are all self-employed. They are in a safe working environment and get regularly tested for STIs.

You must be confusing the fantasy of what Germany and Nevada were meant to be, with the reality of what they actually aren't. Yes of course the regulations are there on paper, but in practice, they're a very different story. Regulation isn't going to happen in Ireland now either, and at least Germany being within the EU will be rolling back on it's current laws too to adopt the Swedish model.

Outlawing any vice for morality reasons has yet to work. Regulation is nearly always better

Good thing they're not outlawing anything for morality reasons then, but for reality reasons, as opposed to some fantasy nonsense about regulation solving anything.

Regulation would have done nothing in this country, just like it hasn't done anything in the countries it was introduced, only given the veneer of respectability, but most people knew the reality.

31-10-2015 1:48am

struggle to see the problem that criminalising purchase/sale of sex solves

nokia69 · 31-10-2015 2:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

struggle to see the problem that criminalising purchase/sale of sex solves

do you mean slaves

that would already be illegal

this new law is very very different, but hey, who cares about the facts

Sheep Lover · 31-10-2015 2:15am

I'm going with... "or what"

nokia69 · 31-10-2015 2:40am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Good thing they're not outlawing anything for morality reasons then, but for reality reasons, as opposed to some fantasy nonsense about regulation solving anything.

na, now jackie come on, its pure feminist ideology as you well know

the law is inspired by Sweden FFS

the idea behind the law is that there is a large number of "trafficked" sex slaves in Ireland, forced to work against their will, there is little or no evidence for this, but hey who cares, because ideology trumps all

Billy86 · 31-10-2015 2:58am

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Since Prostitution is illegal but porn isn't, I wonder if a man was caught with a hooker, but had filmed it could he use the defence that he was simply filming a porno?

I commend your ability to think outside the box about how to get inside the box.

newacc2015 · 31-10-2015 3:17am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Who's this "they" exactly? You can suggest that the 80 odd or so women's welfare organisations may ignore men working in the industry, but there are some organisations and individual campaigners that don't. And not all campaigners hold the views about women working in the industry that you seem to think they do either.

You must be confusing the fantasy of what Germany and Nevada were meant to be, with the reality of what they actually aren't. Yes of course the regulations are there on paper, but in practice, they're a very different story. Regulation isn't going to happen in Ireland now either, and at least Germany being within the EU will be rolling back on it's current laws too to adopt the Swedish model.

Good thing they're not outlawing anything for morality reasons then, but for reality reasons, as opposed to some fantasy nonsense about regulation solving anything.

Regulation would have done nothing in this country, just like it hasn't done anything in the countries it was introduced, only given the veneer of respectability, but most people knew the reality.

There was submissions taken on this legalisation(like most legalisation). The committee failed to listen to one working girl and didnt acknowledge there was working men in the industry. All this anti-prostitution charities talk about is women and never mean

What directive is this? I only mention Germany, as I know there is strong legal sex industry. There is a similar model found in the Netherlands, Spain. So apparently a third of Europe has go changed a mildly successful strategy with a failed Swedish one

In what way has regulation failed? IMO its about protecting the workers and making them feel safe. 84% of working girls in Nevada feel safe. Thats a pretty impressive figure for a industry that is considered quite unsafe.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/04/19/is-legalized-prostitution-safer/nevadas-legal-brothels-make-workers-feel-safer

The internet has completely changed the industry. Whether we outlaw kerb crawling, brothels etc. The industry is now online and increasing difficult to manage.

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21611063-internet-making-buying-and-selling-sex-easier-and-safer-governments-should-stop

One eyed Jack · 31-10-2015 7:35am

nokia69 wrote: »

na, now jackie come on, its pure feminist ideology as you well know

the law is inspired by Sweden FFS

the idea behind the law is that there is a large number of "trafficked" sex slaves in Ireland, forced to work against their will, there is little or no evidence for this, but hey who cares, because ideology trumps all

nokia I'll hold my hands up and say yeah, the Swedish model has been driven by feminism, and yes, ideology does appear to trump all, just like the same ideology touting regulation trumped all a few years ago in other countries, and now people are speaking out and saying it's a mess, and regulation hasn't worked.

The trafficking issue is definitely a bit of a red herring, depending upon whom you ask it's being moved from one county to another, as opposed to being moved from one country to another (prostitution isn't the only thing they play fast and loose with their terminology, look at homeless but not "homeless").

I don't fully agree with the implementation of the Swedish model (Swedish authorities themselves are struggling to cope with the side effects of it, including their funky take on statistics for rape incidents), but is it a start?

It's a start, but I'm just not sure what real difference it will make trying to apply it to Ireland where we will throw no resources at actually solving the problems whatsoever, but at least it'll look like something is happening on paper, just like regulation has done then.

If you want to see an example of ideology trumps all, check out Amnesty Internationals new stance on the issue. To say they have literally disappeared up their own arseholes, is an understatement.

One eyed Jack · 31-10-2015 8:03am

newacc2015 wrote: »

There was submissions taken on this legalisation(like most legalisation). The committee failed to listen to one working girl and didnt acknowledge there was working men in the industry. All this anti-prostitution charities talk about is women and never mean

They listened to one Romanian national with terrible english, but they accepted written submissions from anyone. They did acknowledge that there are male sex workers in the industry in Ireland, but since you seem so concerned about the fact that nobody (as appears to you at least) seems to speak for male sex workers and their welfare, would you care to give a guess how many male sex workers there are in Ireland?

I have no problem with women's charities and organisations being focussed on women, in the same way as I have no issue with men's charities and organisations being focussed on men's welfare. Men's charities and organisations never did seem too keen on the welfare of male sex workers... kinda odd that, isn't it?

What directive is this? I only mention Germany, as I know there is strong legal sex industry. There is a similar model found in the Netherlands, Spain. So apparently a third of Europe has go changed a mildly successful strategy with a failed Swedish one

I'll edit this in a minute after I post, I go looking for a link now the browser will crash out on me.

EDIT: http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/feb/26/meps-vote-criminalise-buying-sex-european-parliament

In what way has regulation failed? IMO its about protecting the workers and making them feel safe. 84% of working girls in Nevada feel safe. Thats a pretty impressive figure for a industry that is considered quite unsafe.

We appear to have differing definitions on what we consider safe, but that's likely because I see them as human beings first, and workers second. They don't have to, and shouldn't have to, work in prostitution. Yours appears more like the Amnesty International take on it where they're trying to argue sex workers "human rights"... err, yeah, doesn't take a genius to see how they're trying to spin that one! :pac:

84% of women working as sex workers claiming to be happy with regulation really shouldn't surprise anyone. When your livelihood depends upon you keeping your job, you're going to do whatever it takes too, even when that includes telling people you love your job, because you're advertising yourself.

The internet has completely changed the industry. Whether we outlaw kerb crawling, brothels etc. The industry is now online and increasing difficult to manage.

It sure has, we agree on that much. It's making prostitution less and less relevant in society all the time with instant hook-up apps like tindr and grindr and social media and so on. Nobody really actually needs prostitution any more, and nobody actually needs to be encouraged to become a sex worker, when they have plenty of other options available to them. I guess though like Amnesty trying to justify their existence, the main European players behind the largest escort agencies will always come up with new ways to market themselves in the face of stiff competition.

newacc2015 · 31-10-2015 9:48am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We appear to have differing definitions on what we consider safe, but that's likely because I see them as human beings first, and workers second. They don't have to, and shouldn't have to, work in prostitution. Yours appears more like the Amnesty International take on it where they're trying to argue sex workers "human rights"... err, yeah, doesn't take a genius to see how they're trying to spin that one! :pac:

84% of women working as sex workers claiming to be happy with regulation really shouldn't surprise anyone. When your livelihood depends upon you keeping your job, you're going to do whatever it takes too, even when that includes telling people you love your job, because you're advertising yourself.

It sure has, we agree on that much. It's making prostitution less and less relevant in society all the time with instant hook-up apps like tindr and grindr and social media and so on. Nobody really actually needs prostitution any more, and nobody actually needs to be encouraged to become a sex worker, when they have plenty of other options available to them. I guess though like Amnesty trying to justify their existence, the main European players behind the largest escort agencies will always come up with new ways to market themselves in the face of stiff competition.

Eh? I literally dont know what you are about between human rights and workers rights.

How are anonymous working girls advertising themselves in a mass survey ? It's a survey. They could disagree and say they feel unsafe. That more regulation is needed. They aren't going to outlaw it if they were honest in the survey like you imply they weren't

You really need to look up why people use working girls/men. Do you seriously think a 60 year old business man can use tinder to find companionship on a business trip? Or a disabled man who uses prostitutes will really find someone on tinder too?

Sex work is the oldest profession. Outlawing is isn't going to get rid of it. It will force it under ground and make the problem seem like it's gone. It will find it hard to believe an escort who is a white female with a college degree who advertises services online is being exploited. Let's not pretend that like you are implying

Fleawuss · 31-10-2015 10:03am

Its hard to argue against a measure that might help protect vulnerable people. The reasoning seems to be that if you get rid of the demand then the supply won't be needed. It seems more likely that there will be occasional prosecutions to make a point: I imagine every so often a parade of pensioners and others not so easily able to get laid will satisfy that side of it. It will come down to enforcement: if they throw resources at it they could make an impact. It might be easy policing: sit at a desk and monitor conversations on some of the sites mentioned by others.
The whole thing is just a sad insight into aspects of human life.

tritium · 31-10-2015 10:13am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If you want to see an example of ideology trumps all, check out Amnesty Internationals new stance on the issue. To say they have literally disappeared up their own arseholes, is an understatement.

That shower disappeared up their own arseholes years ago. For me it happened when one of their senior representatives told Vincent Browne that dealing with a particular issue was beneath them because it dealt with male victims

Under_Graduate · 31-10-2015 10:48am

nokia69 wrote: »

they are illegal already and are scrutinized all the time by the guards, they are easy to find, its a discrete but not really an underground activity

I doubt it, could they close down a website based in another country, or could they block it, in any case I don't think many people use cragislist, another site seems to dominate the market

And what is that?
Will it be subject to termination once the new law comes into effect?

Massage parlors are illegal already?
Why are so many of them practicing the sale of sexual services in that case?
Is it just one of them laws where the guards are like, turning a blind eye to?

Under_Graduate · 31-10-2015 10:57am

Fleawuss wrote: »

Its hard to argue against a measure that might help protect vulnerable people. The reasoning seems to be that if you get rid of the demand then the supply won't be needed. It seems more likely that there will be occasional prosecutions to make a point: I imagine every so often a parade of pensioners and others not so easily able to get laid will satisfy that side of it. It will come down to enforcement: if they throw resources at it they could make an impact. It might be easy policing: sit at a desk and monitor conversations on some of the sites mentioned by others.
The whole thing is just a sad insight into aspects of human life.

hahahahahaha

Avatar MIA · 31-10-2015 11:16am

Prostitution (offered by adults for adults) should be regulated. There's a half arsed approach at present. Prostitution is legal in Ireland, but it's practically impossible to work in it and not be exploited.

It should be regulated with mandatory health checks and taxes paid!

In fairness, if we can suffer solicitors and barristers to exist surely we can find a place to accommodate the oldest profession in the world.

The last time I checked Queen Victoria was dead.

Fleawuss · 31-10-2015 11:33am

Under_Graduate wrote: »

hahahahahaha

Funny and sad.

Mister Vain · 31-10-2015 11:44am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It's making prostitution less and less relevant in society all the time with instant hook-up apps like tindr and grindr and social media and so on. Nobody really actually needs prostitution any more.

That's simply not true. There's still a huge demand for it. A quick look at the reviews on Escort Ireland illustrates that, and that's only the people who have registered with the site. I think it will always be relevant and there will always be a demand for it. No "hook-up" app is going to change that.

eviltwin · 31-10-2015 11:49am

Should be legalised. What consenting adults do is between them and it might just help take the stigma out of working in the sex industry. It annoys me that women who are prostitutes are looked down on as subhuman or as sluts and whores. It's better protection for all involved to regulate it. Then the gardai can concentrate on dealing with with clients who seek out underage sex workers and the gangs who traffick victims.

Under_Graduate · 31-10-2015 11:52am

eviltwin wrote: »

Should be legalised. What consenting adults do is between them and it might just help take the stigma out of working in the sex industry. It annoys me that women who are prostitutes are looked down on as subhuman or as sluts and whores. It's better protection for all involved to regulate it. Then the gardai can concentrate on dealing with with clients who seek out underage sex workers and the gangs who traffick victims.

I agree.

I think most rational minded people do.

So why is there a universally accepted law being brought into place that's going to prohibit it outright?

Fleawuss · 31-10-2015 11:54am

eviltwin wrote: »

Should be legalised. What consenting adults do is between them and it might just help take the stigma out of working in the sex industry. It annoys me that women who are prostitutes are looked down on as subhuman or as sluts and whores. It's better protection for all involved to regulate it. Then the gardai can concentrate on dealing with with clients who seek out underage sex workers and the gangs who traffick victims.

The debate tends to be around the nature of the consent.

eviltwin · 31-10-2015 11:58am

Fleawuss wrote: »

The debate tends to be around the nature of the consent.

I'm not sure what you mean Fleawuss.

So is prostitution to be outlawed in Ireland or what?

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