The Continuity training thread

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 5:40pm #1

Dunno whether there will be any interest in this thread with the graduates/specific training threads etc but will take it as it comes.

Basically this is an idea spawned from previous comments I have made about the difference between becoming a marathoner rather than a runner (well rounded athlete for want of a better word)

There is a tendency to jump straight into specific plans without getting the benefits of a well rounded foundation (i.e strength, speed, co-ordination etc) this can lead to a cycle of 5k/10k training build up to marathon cycle and rinse and repeat which can be fine but it can leave you pigeon holed in the same type of training and as a result can sometimes cause stagnation in training.

The aim is for overall improvement rather than specialization for a target event (though this does not mean that following this layout cannot lead to improvement for a target race).

What I am to do in the thread is provide a 2 session a week template (with a breakdown of specifics to coincide with target weekly mileage) I will also try an explain the reasons behind the session and the pro's and con's. This will not be based on any one coaches approach but rather to be used to sample different training methodology while tailoring it in a way which creates a coherent general outline so that people can see big improvements across the board that they can take into their following training plans or even open people's eyes to different types of training outside of the usual generic plans.

pconn062 · 09-11-2014 5:49pm

ECOLII wrote: »

Dunno whether there will be any interest in this thread with the graduates/specific training threads etc but will take it as it comes.

Basically this is an idea spawned from previous comments I have made about the difference between becoming a marathoner rather than a runner (well rounded athlete for want of a better word)

There is a tendency to jump straight into specific plans without getting the benefits of a well rounded foundation (i.e strength, speed, co-ordination etc) this can lead to a cycle of 5k/10k training build up to marathon cycle and rinse and repeat which can be fine but it can leave you pigeon holed in the same type of training and as a result can sometimes cause stagnation in training.

The aim is for overall improvement rather than specialization for a target event (though this does not mean that following this layout cannot lead to improvement for a target race).

What I am to do in the thread is provide a 2 session a week template (with a breakdown of specifics to coincide with target weekly mileage) I will also try an explain the reasons behind the session and the pro's and con's. This will not be based on any one coaches approach but rather to be used to sample different training methodology while tailoring it in a way which creates a coherent general outline so that people can see big improvements across the board that they can take into their following training plans or even open people's eyes to different types of training outside of the usual generic plans.

Excellent idea ecoli, good idea for those who want to break the repeated marathon cycle. We might even get a few middle distance runners out of it!

kit3 · 09-11-2014 5:50pm

Thanks EcoliI. Would love to give this a go but I'm signed up for Donadea on Feb - does that put me in the wrong place at the moment ?

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 6:07pm

pconn062 wrote: »

Excellent idea ecoli, good idea for those who want to break the repeated marathon cycle. We might even get a few middle distance runners out of it!

There will be a touch of all paces throughout as I think the physiological effects of higher intensity efforts can complement a distance runner very well the trick comes when you have to tailor the plan to the needs but that comes later, many people are coming to the sport without the Long Term Athletic Development model that Juvenile athletics tries to implement so this is a way of addressing that

kit3 wrote: »

Thanks EcoliI. Would love to give this a go but I'm signed up for Donadea on Feb - does that put me in the wrong place at the moment ?

As said it will be a case of introducing different types of sessions so its a case of take them or leave them as best suits the individuals needs

Chivito550 · 09-11-2014 6:10pm

pconn062 wrote: »

Excellent idea ecoli, good idea for those who want to break the repeated marathon cycle. We might even get a few middle distance runners out of it!

Or sprinters?

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 6:13pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Or sprinters?

Might even throw one or two sessions to fine tune sub 60 or 800m aspirants as the year goes on

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 7:07pm

Right so to kick things off The one thing I would say is that unless otherwise state I would aim to try an maintain a long run of roughly 20-25% of your overall weekly mileage (depending on how many days you are running)

If you are only running 3 days per week I would advise to just attempt one session per week

Session 1| Diagonals|10-12 minutes continuous|5k pace

This is a great introductory to speedwork. Effectively it involved either a football pitch or a track. The aim is to run from corner to corner of a pitch (or if have access to a track simply use the 100m straights) at just slightly quicker than 5k pace and jog the length of the end line (bend on track) at easy pace. This is great for leg turnover but the continuous nature makes it a decent aerobic work out to which is probably why it is a popular one among Kenya distance runners

Please find like below for a diagram explanation

http:// + www + boards + ie + /vbulletin/ +showpost.php? + p=69988117& + postcount=22

(Had to break it up till I get enough posts:p )

Session 2| 20 minute tempo|10k-10 mile pace*

*Please note that this is based on your level, it is roughly the pace which you can hold for an hour (so if you are a 50-60 min 10k runner then just slightly slower than 10k pace is fine). It does not have to be exact but that is the effort level you are looking for. Effectively the aim of this session is to train your body to get rid of lactate quicker than your body is producing it. This is one of the keys to training for any aerobic event. Tempo is a widely interpreted term and generally is used as a catch all term for long sustained sub maximal race efforts.

laura_ac3 · 09-11-2014 7:29pm

Those look really interesting. What sort of warm up and cool downs would be recommended with those sessions? Sorry if that's a stupid question!!

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 7:32pm

laura_ac3 wrote: »

Those look really interesting. What sort of warm up and cool downs would be recommended with those sessions? Sorry if that's a stupid question!!

Apologies thought I had that added,

Depending on the weekly mileage I would recommend between 1-3 miles warm up and cooldown

laura_ac3 · 09-11-2014 7:43pm

ECOLII wrote: »

Apologies thought I had that added,

Depending on the weekly mileage I would recommend between 1-3 miles warm up and cooldown

Thanks very much ecolii.

Netwerk Errer · 09-11-2014 8:02pm

This is a brilliant idea Ecolii. A lot of new runners and even experienced runners don't pay much attention to strength, neuromuscular or base training. They rush into specific plans where intensity and mileage increases happen at the same time without the necessary background training to sustain specific training. Doing so nearly always leads to overuse injuries and chronic fatigue.

I think too many runners are a slave to the generic training plans and never learn how to structure a plan to suit themselves because of that. They never learn what they're trying to achieve with different sessions. I often think that pure sprint training is overlooked in distance running. Working on a runners explosiveness and top end speed can only make a better all round athlete.

chickey2 · 09-11-2014 8:32pm

Thanks for that. Will definitely try the diagonals this week. I was out for a run today and I'm sick of having to stop to cross the road mid run. Its not so bad on a lsr but I want to try intervals and was wondering where I could go to do them.

paddybarry · 09-11-2014 8:41pm

How many days so you suggest between sessions? I ask as most clubs (from what I can gather) do sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays? Thanks for starting this thread, it's a great resource to have.

SamforMayo · 09-11-2014 8:45pm

paddybarry wrote: »

How many days so you suggest between sessions? I ask as most clubs (from what I can gather) do sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays? Thanks for starting this thread, it's a great resource to have.

I was wondering this too. Also if running 5 days do you just add in an LSR and 2 easy days?

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 8:45pm

paddybarry wrote: »

How many days so you suggest between sessions? I ask as most clubs (from what I can gather) do sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays? Thanks for starting this thread, it's a great resource to have.

Ideally you are looking for maximum recovery between sessions, personally I would be of the opinion that a Tues/Fri schedule with a Long run on the Sunday works quite well

paddybarry · 09-11-2014 8:48pm

ECOLII wrote: »

Ideally you are looking for maximum recovery between sessions, personally I would be of the opinion that a Tues/Fri schedule with a Long run on the Sunday works quite well

Wednesday+ Saturday with a LSR on a Sunday. I was reading in a lot of training logs, that coaches were suggesting that LSR on a sunday on tired legs is beneficial?

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 8:51pm

SamforMayo wrote: »

I was wondering this too. Also if running 5 days do you just add in an LSR and 2 easy days?

5 days a week could look like this

Monday - OFF
Tuesday - Session
Wednesday - Easy
Thursday- OFF
Fri - Session
Saturday - Easy
Sunday - Long Run

paddybarry · 09-11-2014 8:53pm

ECOLII wrote: »

5 days a week could look like this

Monday - OFF
Tuesday - Session
Wednesday - Easy
Thursday- OFF
Fri - Session
Saturday - Easy
Sunday - Long Run

Is Easy PMP + 1min roughly?

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 8:53pm

paddybarry wrote: »

Wednesday+ Saturday with a LSR on a Sunday. I was reading in a lot of training logs, that coaches were suggesting that LSR on a sunday on tired legs is beneficial?

This can work also depending on your level and the intensity of the sessions, some can leave you needing a rest day especially if you are aerobically lacking (i.e the immune system will be compromised too much with the back to back element)

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 8:55pm

paddybarry wrote: »

Is Easy PMP + 1min roughly?

Depends on the type of athlete, if you have a high mileage background and a few years of aerobic base you might be more distance orientated at which point your easy pace might be closer to that however I feel for the majority of people MP+90 secs is a good gauge

Netwerk Errer · 09-11-2014 9:00pm

ECOLII wrote: »

Depends on the type of athlete, if you have a high mileage background and a few years of aerobic base you might be more distance orientated at which point your easy pace might be closer to that however I feel for the majority of people MP+90 secs is a good gauge

that slow? I usually run my easy runs between 45-65s slower than PMP depending on how I feel. Am I overcooking them? The pace feels very comfortable.

Hannibal Smith · 09-11-2014 9:03pm

Love it! In fact I saw a guy in the park today doing exactly what the diagram says and I wondered what the thinking behind it was.

paddybarry · 09-11-2014 9:07pm

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

that slow? I usually run my easy runs between 45-65s slower than PMP depending on how I feel. Am I overcooking them? The pace feels very comfortable.

Id imagine you are fine as you have a decent aerobic base and was targeting sub 3hrs in DCM.

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 9:14pm

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

that slow? I usually run my easy runs between 45-65s slower than PMP depending on how I feel. Am I overcooking them? The pace feels very comfortable.

This can be common enough, I think there is an element of both physical and mental conditioning here where by you can get used to running that bit faster on the easy days but too be honest the fact is that most Irish people don't have the aerobic conditioning (by this I mean a few years of high mileage) as a base to the point where we are maxing our aerobic capacity to the point we must boost our aerobic runs to a steadier state in order to gain the same physiological benefits.

I think this is something which can tend to be overlooked when people are viewing the like's of Canova's training principles for elite Kenyan Marathoners etc, we essentially overlook the years proceeding to get the body to the point where it is ready to "train"

Essentially many of us will get the same benefit by running at the lower end of our easy pace as we would the higher end without compromising the effort given to the harder workouts

Netwerk Errer · 09-11-2014 9:35pm

ECOLII wrote: »

This can be common enough, I think there is an element of both physical and mental conditioning here where by you can get used to running that bit faster on the easy days but too be honest the fact is that most Irish people don't have the aerobic conditioning (by this I mean a few years of high mileage) as a base to the point where we are maxing our aerobic capacity to the point we must boost our aerobic runs to a steadier state in order to gain the same physiological benefits.

I think this is something which can tend to be overlooked when people are viewing the like's of Canova's training principles for elite Kenyan Marathoners etc, we essentially overlook the years proceeding to get the body to the point where it is ready to "train"

Essentially many of us will get the same benefit by running at the lower end of our easy pace as we would the higher end without compromising the effort given to the harder workouts

Ok, I get what you're saying. "distance first, pace later" to qoute Bill Rodgers. I have seen some of Rodgers early plans where he's running 7 min/mile easy runs when he was running 2.12 in the marathon. That pace dropped to near 6 min/mile when he was running 2.09. I assume that was a natural progression as his aerobic engine got stronger and not a concious effort to increase his easy pace.

With that in mind, what are your thought's on LSR pace? Should the pace be nearly 2 min/mile slower than PMP throughout the schedule without any specific work in an aerobically weak athlete? I'm asking this because pace will also affect metabolic benefits. Is it better to run at the lower end of aerobic and sacrifice the metabolic benefits of faster pace long runs?

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 10:01pm

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Is it better to run at the lower end of aerobic and sacrifice the metabolic benefits of faster pace long runs?

I don't think you are actually sacrificing as as much as you may believe, the fact is that a Canova style workout would not work for the majority of us because we haven't develop the cardiovascular benefits associate with the low intensity aerobic running

Funny enough I think the DCM winner's coach eluded to this in his discussion on the training talk. While each run has its own merits in terms of physiological changes caused they should also be looked at from an overall standpoint in relation to the athletes background also (a bit like when you see recent converts from years of high mileage suddenly making huge gains from a higher intensity lower volume approach you need to look at the background to see why that worked)

1) We noticed in May that Eliud's ratio of fat/glycogen utilization was not efficient enough for marathoning, primarily as his background was steeplechase. So to train his body for utilizing fat more efficiently he needed to push his body for increasingly longer efforts at a low intensity, getting to 2+ hr runs. Zone A1 has the highest RER which means it is the optimal zone for enhancing fat oxidation. The rate of glycogen depletion is a key determinant of performance in the marathon and the best way to reduce this rate is by enhancing fat oxidation. This is a component we are very keen to develop in Eliud, but it can take over a year to observe any noticeable adaptation. His A2 zone would be what you are referring to as Canova Long Runs. Neil and I had hoped to have a fair bit of running in this zone, but as things progressed I found Eliud wasn't ready for this component in his program so I reduced the volume of A2. The priority was improving his fat oxidation. His A2 zone is something we will be integrating more and more as he matures. But he's still not ready for it yet.

Netwerk Errer · 09-11-2014 10:39pm

ECOLII wrote: »

I don't think you are actually sacrificing as as much as you may believe, the fact is that a Canova style workout would not work for the majority of us because we haven't develop the cardiovascular benefits associate with the low intensity aerobic running

Funny enough I think the DCM winner's coach eluded to this in his discussion on the training talk. While each run has its own merits in terms of physiological changes caused they should also be looked at from an overall standpoint in relation to the athletes background also (a bit like when you see recent converts from years of high mileage suddenly making huge gains from a higher intensity lower volume approach you need to look at the background to see why that worked)

Yeah, I agree. Canova style workouts are on a different planet for most runner's. But I think there's still a place for specific work for mere mortals. You don't have to be running a 150mpw to add specific training. A runner with 60mpw could still add specific training if they have maintained that mileage for a while and periodised properly. Don't you think so?

I also think there's a place for steady state runs in this discussion as they are great aerobic workouts. I think if your focus is on building a strong aerobic base, you should have aerobic workouts in a plan and not just easy running.

Edit: I do think we have to look at this from a relative point of view. Some runners might have built the max aerobic base they can for a certain mileage and might want to add more specific work rather than increase their overall mileage

ECOLII · 09-11-2014 10:50pm

Netwerk Errer wrote: »

Yeah, I agree. Canova style workouts are on a different planet for most runner's. But I think there's still a place for specific work for mere mortals. You don't have to be running a 150mpw to add specific training. A runner with 60mpw could still add specific training if they have maintained that mileage for a while and periodised properly. Don't you think so?

I also think there's a place for steady state runs in this discussion as they are great aerobic workouts. I think if your focus is on building a strong aerobic base, you should have aerobic workouts in a plan and not just easy running.

I agree and in fact if you actually look at both sessions prescribed they are of an aerobic nature. I also agree with regards steady state runs being used very effectively (and I use them with most of my athletes) however these are focal sessions as opposed to supplementary long runs if that makes sense.

For the purpose of this thread though as mentioned before I feel that majority of the audience will benefit from low intensity long runs. Having said that I did mention that there will be specified higher intensity long runs added at particular times within the approach.

While the aim is to introduce people to different elements of training plans/ philosophies ultimately I aim to try and tie these into a coherent outline that will yield performance benefits for anyone who does wish to use it week on week as a general prep phase.

Netwerk Errer · 09-11-2014 10:56pm

I'll let you get back to it so. Apologies for the slight hijack.:)

KielyUnusual · 10-11-2014 12:06am

I read about that football pitch session last year and used it when I was coming back from injury and wasn't quite ready to return to the track just yet. It's a great little session. I did it for 3 or 4 weeks increasing the time of the session each time before eventually rejoining the club session on the track. Would definitely recommend.

martyboy48 · 10-11-2014 2:05am

Thanks for these Ecolii, I'll look forward to giving them a go.
On the 1st session, the 10-12 mins continuous 5k pace, does this include the jogging between the diagonal pace runs, or is it just the 5k pace part?

And on this as a whole, will it be ongoing or is it for maybe 2-3 months?

Thanks again, good to have you back...

The Continuity training thread

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