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Why must Irish be compulsory??

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  • 11-03-2012 4:08am
    #1
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭


    Hi,
    The same question's been going through my head for god knows how long, and I know threads about this issue have been stated many times before: Why on earth must Irish be compulsory for the Leaving Cert? Why force students to ''learn'' a language that is of little to no benefit to most students, and that most will forget about anyway? Why is the government wasting so much money on having Irish as a compulsory subject when they could: either give students the option to learn it of their own free will, and save money, or introduce a more useful subject? It's ridiculous,
    Opinions?

    (Now I'm not attacking the langauge in any way, just the way it's currently taught and also it's compulsion for the LC)


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    #2
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    You could make a point about many subjects being "of little to no benefit to most students, and that most will forget about anyway?" History, Geography, English, Art, Music could possibly be considered as such. Education shouldn't be something exclusively driven towards getting a job. It's important that we educate our citizens in a rounded way and seeing as the Irish language plays a large role in our cultural heritage, I wouldn't consider its teaching as useless.


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    #3
    thedodger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭thedodger


    I agree with Niall, though I realise why people object to learning Irish. Why not do away with English as well, since there is no need to learn it as we're all fluent anyway? The point is, if only 1 person in 100 gains from this and takes it further it's worth it. The Irish Language is a part of our heritage. It's compulsory, that's just how things are, and won't change anytime soon, and better to try to learn the subject and do well in it..result:leaving cert points...than complain:result...fruitless moaning and less leaving cert points.


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    #4
    NakedNNettles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭NakedNNettles


    thedodger wrote: »
    Why not do away with English as well, since there is no need to learn it as we're all fluent anyway? The point is, if only 1 person in 100 gains from this and takes it further it's worth it. .

    English is an international language, Irish isn't.

    Fluent, right. Though no more than the Scots, a thick accent can be a problem abroad.

    English grammar and spelling...not so much.


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    #5
    thedodger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭thedodger


    Where did you hear that? Not attacking, just curious?

    Your accent is part of who you are, where you came from. It's not 'a problem'

    after the initial short time people take to acclimatize.


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    #6
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    As Niall said why have anything compulsory? I think a language should be compulsory as it provides a good exercise in learning. It disciplines us from a young age to have the ability to learn something from scratch and work to become accomplished at it. Since we live in Ireland the natural choice for a compulsory language would be Irish.


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    #7
    jive
    Registered Users Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭jive


    It shouldn't be compulsory. It provides little to no benefit for the vast, vast majority of people who learn it. The way it is taught throughout education is highly flawed and this is evident in the fact that you learn it for around 15 years and nobody can even speak the language fluently unless they are taught it externally e.g. at home, or live in a ghaeltacht area.

    While I appreciate the reasons for it being taught, I do not these reasons justify it being a compulsory subject. Irish has no use outside of Ireland and has no use inside of Ireland for 99% of people. The time spent learning Irish would be better spent learning international languages like Spanish. I feel that Irish should be offered as a subject, but should not be a compulsory one because it has practical use for but a few individuals.

    TL;DR
    It's not useless, but it will never be relevant enough for it to justify being compulsory.


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    #8
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Why not make it compulsory up to junior cert?
    Everybody will get a grounding in it at this stage.
    For those that enjoy it and want to learn more they can continue with it to the Leaving Cert.


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    #9
    Truman Burbank
    Registered Users Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Truman Burbank


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77331064


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    #10
    UnholyGregor
    Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭UnholyGregor


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    the Irish language plays a large role in our cultural heritage
    I've heard about 3 people speak irish natively in my entire life. Its a tax money dump....


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    #11
    finality
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    I wouldn't have a problem with Irish being compulsory to junior cert level. At 16 I think a person has enough knowledge of themselves and how they find the language, to make a conscious decision as to whether to continue with it.

    You can't force a person to learn a language they have no interest in, it's pointless as once they leave school they will not use it at all. In my case learning Irish is a massive waste of time as I plan to leave Ireland after my leaving cert, and I know I will never speak the language once I'm free not to. We could be learning a language which will actually benefit us later in life instead. Why not have everyone learn two European languages?

    The teaching of Irish is a huge problem too. I've learnt German for six years and I'm almost fluent in it, I can speak it comfortably and converse in it without much trouble. Irish, on the other hand, I've learnt for 14 years and I just can't speak it. The grammar makes no sense to me as it was never explained clearly. I know for a fact that if Irish were taught in the same way as German I would have no issue with it.
    In German I have loads of notes on grammar and on all sorts of things, in Irish I have never had any such notes. There's no structure to the way Irish is taught, and it's just presumed that people have an excellent grasp of it when that's not necessarily the case.


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    #12
    bscm
    Registered Users Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭bscm


    It's basically all down to the constitution, written back in the early 1900's when people were fighting for the Irish identity...

    I agree it's an outdated rule, people would appreciate Irish more if they were given the choice to drop it. Also the structure of the subject needs to change, I could write an essay on the aspects of a patriarchal society in Irish last year but I could barely have a basic conversation.


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    #13
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    I'm not against the Irish lanuguage itself in any way, just the fact that it's compulsory, and also because it's not taught the right way. It's funny how we can teach international languages better than our own - I'm in 6th year and I've been doing french for only 6 years, Irish for nearly 14 years, yet I can make a much better conversation in French than in Irish. That's proof of how badly it's taught. If a language is worth teaching, it's worth teaching right. If it's not going to be dropped as a core subject, then they could at least try new teaching methods. But above that students should be given the option, because most students develop a true resentment for the lanugauge if they're forced to learn it.


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    #14
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    You could make a point about many subjects being "of little to no benefit to most students, and that most will forget about anyway?" History, Geography, English, Art, Music could possibly be considered as such. Education shouldn't be something exclusively driven towards getting a job. It's important that we educate our citizens in a rounded way and seeing as the Irish language plays a large role in our cultural heritage, I wouldn't consider its teaching as useless.

    I agree: maybe teaching the launguage isin't useless, but it's pointless to force Irish on the majority of students who don't need Irish. That's why students should be given the option. Dropping it as a compulsory subject will also respect a basic human right - the right to speak whatever language you wish. Young people need to be given far more freedom in their own education and learn things which they see as relevant to them, not what the government sees relevant to them.


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    #15
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    As a student currently sitting the leaving, I can tell you as someone who enjoys speaking the language, the current course is a massive turn-off (yes, sexually too:cool:).

    Its all poems, and extra poems if you don't do another depressing Irish novel, and then Prós which are vile, violent, boring stories that only serve as to dishearten people like me who take pride in being able to speak some of it, and encourage others to bitch and complain and start threads on it.


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    #16
    cathalio11
    Registered Users Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭cathalio11


    Not only is the language dying, but they don't even teach it right.

    They don't teach you how to speak Irish, they teach you how to sit the exam.

    Same with French and German.

    I spent one year in a Dutch part of Belgium, no French outside French class. Came back far exceeding Leaving Cert standard.


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    #17
    Togepi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,813 ✭✭✭Togepi


    donvito99 wrote: »
    As a student currently sitting the leaving, I can tell you as someone who enjoys speaking the language, the current course is a massive turn-off (yes, sexually too:cool:).

    Its all poems, and extra poems if you don't do another depressing Irish novel, and then Prós which are vile, violent, boring stories that only serve as to dishearten people like me who take pride in being able to speak some of it, and encourage others to bitch and complain and start threads on it.

    Count yourself lucky, last year we had to do an extra eight poems, and stair na Gaeilge. Plus the oral only counted for 20%. Paper II was way worse then, and it was worth about 180 marks.


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    #18
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    donvito99 wrote: »
    As a student currently sitting the leaving, I can tell you as someone who enjoys speaking the language, the current course is a massive turn-off (yes, sexually too:cool:).

    Its all poems, and extra poems if you don't do another depressing Irish novel, and then Prós which are vile, violent, boring stories that only serve as to dishearten people like me who take pride in being able to speak some of it, and encourage others to bitch and complain and start threads on it.

    only I wasn't bitching and complaining about the launguage itself - because I also quite enjoy speaking some of it myself from time to time. I was complaining about how it's taught and the fact that it's compulsory, which are big problems, :pac:


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    #19
    Ms.M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Ms.M


    Had I had the option I wouldn't have done Irish for my LC because it was the one subject I wasn't getting A or Bs in...

    Alas... I was also a complete spa with no connection whatsoever to my own heritage or culture. I thought being Irish was about shamrocks and "having a laugh".

    I would be completey culturally deprived if it hadn't been compulsory. I wouldn't feel myself without it. I would have no cultural identity.There are many cultures on this island and you have to respect all, if you don't love Irish don't go on about it being a dead language, just accept that it is a minority culture. And stop claiming it as yours to trash.

    Cultural diversity is most certainly a beautiful thing and Irish, along with so many other minority languages, must be protected. It's not a dead thing, it's an entire culture, if it goes, that culture is dead. My kids won't be stressed out by Irish as I was because it will be their first language. That is the solution, and the only positive outcome. I know it's hard to imagine when you're 16 but really there's a big world out there and you might change your mind about what's important in a few years time.

    This thread utterly depresses me.


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    #20
    F9Devil
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭F9Devil


    I've talked to the people in UCD Science who say UCD are trying to get it taken off the requirements.

    Irish should always be an option, just like any other subject, but it shouldn't be compulsory. I can't see it staying like it is for long.


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    #21
    guitarzero
    Registered Users Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭guitarzero


    Why must anything be compulsory? Who gets to decide where we must nail ourselves for hours at a desk?


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    #22
    F9Devil
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭F9Devil


    For a "well-rounded education".
    I for one don't believe Irish has any place in modern Irish education however.


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    #23
    finality
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    Ms.M wrote: »
    Had I had the option I wouldn't have done Irish for my LC because it was the one subject I wasn't getting A or Bs in...

    Alas... I was also a complete spa with no connection whatsoever to my own heritage or culture. I thought being Irish was about shamrocks and "having a laugh".

    I would be completey culturally deprived if it hadn't been compulsory. I wouldn't feel myself without it. I would have no cultural identity.There are many cultures on this island and you have to respect all, if you don't love Irish don't go on about it being a dead language, just accept that it is a minority culture. And stop claiming it as yours to trash.

    Cultural diversity is most certainly a beautiful thing and Irish, along with so many other minority languages, must be protected. It's not a dead thing, it's an entire culture, if it goes, that culture is dead. My kids won't be stressed out by Irish as I was because it will be their first language. That is the solution, and the only positive outcome. I know it's hard to imagine when you're 16 but really there's a big world out there and you might change your mind about what's important in a few years time.

    This thread utterly depresses me.

    Having Irish compulsory at leaving cert level does not promote Irish culture though. If anything it makes a lot of people resent it, as let's face it, the prose and poetry on the course are hardly relevant for teenagers, the reading comprehensions are generally dull and the majority of the time is spent learning how to write about social issues.


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    #24
    Bazinga_N
    Registered Users Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Bazinga_N


    I'm actually a bit ashamed to call some of you fellow Irishmen...

    Many of us Irish people complain about the British and we say we hate them.. But Why? Many people say it's due to them taking our independence, or our land and our language - Irish. Many years ago all Irishmen spoke Irish and English was kept to English people. I actually find it quite funny that today English people speak English and Irish people speak English.

    I went to a Gaelscoil.... When I was there all I did was complain about being made speak Irish.. Got to an English speaking Secondary School.. It made me realise how much I actually liked Irish... I had an identity, as did my fellow classmates.. I wasn't they guy who liked Music... Or the guy into Sports... I was the guy who was smart enough, to take pride in Irish.. And Call myself a True Irish Man..

    And that's something people say.. ''If you don't like Guinness your not Irish'' or if you ''Don't play GAA'' your not Irish.. Well In My Opinion if ''you don't Speak Irish, your not Irish'', Just like Italians speak Italian, The French speak French or The English Speak English.. Why shouldn't we have a unique language?

    Also, people say Irish isn't a modern language... It's like Latin or Ancient Greek.. I strongly disagree.. I speak Irish on a daily basis.. As do many of my friends.. and fellow classmates.. as does every student in my past primary school... as does many people across the nation.. How is this language dead? The day Irish will die.. is the day the world will end... Because I know that even if it did go optional... The Irish race wouldn't be so stupid as to let the language die... Because some people like myself, have pride in our country.. and it's language..


    Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam


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    #25
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »
    Hi,
    The same question's been going through my head for god knows how long, and I know threads about this issue have been stated many times before: Why on earth must Irish be compulsory for the Leaving Cert? Why force students to ''learn'' a language that is of little to no benefit to most students, and that most will forget about anyway? Why is the government wasting so much money on having Irish as a compulsory subject when they could: either give students the option to learn it of their own free will, and save money, or introduce a more useful subject? It's ridiculous,
    Opinions?

    Just in case you are not aware, there have been many threads released about this subject over the years, the latest being 34 pages long, with every conceivable argument for (and against) Compulsive LC Irish > After Hours > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056557067


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    #26
    finality
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    Bazinga_N wrote: »
    I'm actually a bit ashamed to call some of you fellow Irishmen...

    Many of us Irish people complain about the British and we say we hate them.. But Why? Many people say it's due to them taking our independence, or our land and our language - Irish. Many years ago all Irishmen spoke Irish and English was kept to English people. I actually find it quite funny that today English people speak English and Irish people speak English.

    I went to a Gaelscoil.... When I was there all I did was complain about being made speak Irish.. Got to an English speaking Secondary School.. It made me realise how much I actually liked Irish... I had an identity, as did my fellow classmates.. I wasn't they guy who liked Music... Or the guy into Sports... I was the guy who was smart enough, to take pride in Irish.. And Call myself a True Irish Man..

    And that's something people say.. ''If you don't like Guinness your not Irish'' or if you ''Don't play GAA your not Irish''.. Well In My Opinion if ''you don't Speak Irish, your not Irish'', Just like Italians speak Italian, The French speak French or The English Speak English.. Why shouldn't we have a unique language?

    Also, people say Irish isn't a modern language, it's a dead language, like Latin or Ancient Greek.. I strongly disagree.. I speak Irish on a daily basis.. As do many of my friends.. and fellow classmates.. as does every student in my past primary school... as does many people across the nation.. How is this language dead? The day Irish will die.. is the day the world will end... Because I know that even if it did go optional... The Irish race wouldn't be so stupid as to let the language die... Because some people like myself, have pride in our country.. and it's language..


    Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam

    Ok, you have pride in Irish, nobody wants to take the option of learning the language away from you. I know there are plenty of people who would still opt to do Irish for the leaving cert. That doesn't mean that people like me, who don't place so much importance on a national identity, should be forced to study a language we'll never make use of after leaving school. I could be putting my time to much better use.

    I would actually be completely for one universal language, which would promote unity worldwide instead of the current "my country is better than yours" attitude which pretty much prevails.


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    #27
    reznov
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭reznov


    Irish should not be strictly compulsory. If you want heritage, learn it in your own time outside of school or make it an option. English citizens speak English, but so do 375 million individuals around the world. It is an international language. Luckily we have forward thinking minds who realise that a country must evolve. Without English, Ireland would probably not be in the EU or have rapidly developed into a once thriving economy. I personally doubt businesses such as Intel or Vodafone would take time to hire and train staff to accommodate the need for Irish, just to operate in one country. Perhaps I am wrong in saying so! However, the Gaeltacht area alone does not equate to 375 million speakers, and so English is a more valuable language.

    Also, being able to coagulate words in to a sentence does not mean you know English. The one unfortunate downside to English education here is that no time is portioned to learning technical aspects of English. All we do is read poems, novels, dramas and memorise several quotes to apply in the exam. Of course the biggest farce is the LC where you are rewarded thoroughly for regurgitating prepared essays by your teacher. Unless your language is absolutely illegible, you will not be docked marks for use of basic language. No extra marks are given for aesthetic language either.

    I feel that similar to the British A-Levels, all subjects need to be made optional except for Maths. Why must we force students to educate themselves in what they will never apply? One can only dream.

    George, tell me about the rabbits. :(


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    #28
    stevenf17
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭stevenf17


    Bazinga_N wrote: »
    Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam

    Ya see the thing is, after being "thought" irish for nearly 15 years there's not hope I could even remotely understand what you just wrote!

    Sat the leaving 3 years ago and I'd have to agree with the OP that for the way its currently thought it shouldn't be compulsory (for the leaving cert anyway)
    For me, having to do Irish actually made my overall results in the leaving suffer as I had to waste time(imo) learning something I had feck all comprehension for and no desire to learn as I just couldn't get my head around it all. (I did Ordinary level in the end, but it was a struggle)
    Some people, myself included, just don't have the same natural ability to learn languages as other people. for eg. I've always gotten far better results in practical/logical based subjects like engineering/maths/geography.. etc than language based subjects because well, that's just not how my brain works.
    Personally i don't think people should be forced into learning something that practically has very little use and can eventually impede them in excelling at other subjects!
    With the way it was thought to me, it made me absolutely dread going to class and I relished the days we didn't have any!

    All that being said I ws thought french for 6 years and never really had any problems with that... my results were never as good as my practical/logical subjects but it was prob down to french being more structured than Irish!


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    #29
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,934 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Bazinga_N wrote: »
    I'm actually a bit ashamed to call some of you fellow Irishmen...

    Many of us Irish people complain about the British and we say we hate them.. But Why? Many people say it's due to them taking our independence, or our land and our language - Irish. Many years ago all Irishmen spoke Irish and English was kept to English people. I actually find it quite funny that today English people speak English and Irish people speak English.

    Americans speak English as well. Should they be ashamed of themselves? Maybe they should make up a language that no-one else can speak so they can call themselves Americans.
    Bazinga_N wrote: »
    And that's something people say.. ''If you don't like Guinness your not Irish'' or if you ''Don't play GAA your not Irish''..

    And those people are morons.

    ⛥ ̸̱̼̞͛̀̓̈́͘#C̶̼̭͕̎̿͝R̶̦̮̜̃̓͌O̶̬͙̓͝W̸̜̥͈̐̾͐Ṋ̵̲͔̫̽̎̚͠ͅT̸͓͒͐H̵͔͠È̶̖̳̘͍͓̂W̴̢̋̈͒͛̋I̶͕͑͠T̵̻͈̜͂̇Č̵̤̟̑̾̂̽H̸̰̺̏̓ ̴̜̗̝̱̹͛́̊̒͝⛥



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    #30
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Just in case you are not aware, there have been many threads released about this subject over the years, the latest being 34 pages long, with every conceivable argument for (and against) Compulsive LC Irish > After Hours > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056557067

    yeah I know I mentioned at the start that there were already many threads about compulsory Irish,


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    #31
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    Bazinga_N wrote: »
    I'm actually a bit ashamed to call some of you fellow Irishmen...

    Many of us Irish people complain about the British and we say we hate them.. But Why? Many people say it's due to them taking our independence, or our land and our language - Irish. Many years ago all Irishmen spoke Irish and English was kept to English people. I actually find it quite funny that today English people speak English and Irish people speak English.

    I went to a Gaelscoil.... When I was there all I did was complain about being made speak Irish.. Got to an English speaking Secondary School.. It made me realise how much I actually liked Irish... I had an identity, as did my fellow classmates.. I wasn't they guy who liked Music... Or the guy into Sports... I was the guy who was smart enough, to take pride in Irish.. And Call myself a True Irish Man..

    And that's something people say.. ''If you don't like Guinness your not Irish'' or if you ''Don't play GAA'' your not Irish.. Well In My Opinion if ''you don't Speak Irish, your not Irish'', Just like Italians speak Italian, The French speak French or The English Speak English.. Why shouldn't we have a unique language?

    Also, people say Irish isn't a modern language... It's like Latin or Ancient Greek.. I strongly disagree.. I speak Irish on a daily basis.. As do many of my friends.. and fellow classmates.. as does every student in my past primary school... as does many people across the nation.. How is this language dead? The day Irish will die.. is the day the world will end... Because I know that even if it did go optional... The Irish race wouldn't be so stupid as to let the language die... Because some people like myself, have pride in our country.. and it's language..


    Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam

    many people can't speak any Irish and don't want to. Don't blame that on them. It was the piss-poor way of teaching it and the fact that they were forced to learn it that drove them away from real engagement with the language. If somethings forced on you, then you naturally get to resent it. Irish is one of those things. It's one of the reasons why there are so many negative attitudes towards Irish nowadays.


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