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Why must Irish be compulsory??

  • 11-03-2012 3:08am
    #1
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭


    Hi,
    The same question's been going through my head for god knows how long, and I know threads about this issue have been stated many times before: Why on earth must Irish be compulsory for the Leaving Cert? Why force students to ''learn'' a language that is of little to no benefit to most students, and that most will forget about anyway? Why is the government wasting so much money on having Irish as a compulsory subject when they could: either give students the option to learn it of their own free will, and save money, or introduce a more useful subject? It's ridiculous,
    Opinions?

    (Now I'm not attacking the langauge in any way, just the way it's currently taught and also it's compulsion for the LC)


«1345

Comments

  • #2
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    You could make a point about many subjects being "of little to no benefit to most students, and that most will forget about anyway?" History, Geography, English, Art, Music could possibly be considered as such. Education shouldn't be something exclusively driven towards getting a job. It's important that we educate our citizens in a rounded way and seeing as the Irish language plays a large role in our cultural heritage, I wouldn't consider its teaching as useless.


  • #3
    thedodger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭thedodger


    I agree with Niall, though I realise why people object to learning Irish. Why not do away with English as well, since there is no need to learn it as we're all fluent anyway? The point is, if only 1 person in 100 gains from this and takes it further it's worth it. The Irish Language is a part of our heritage. It's compulsory, that's just how things are, and won't change anytime soon, and better to try to learn the subject and do well in it..result:leaving cert points...than complain:result...fruitless moaning and less leaving cert points.


  • #4
    NakedNNettles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭NakedNNettles


    thedodger wrote: »
    Why not do away with English as well, since there is no need to learn it as we're all fluent anyway? The point is, if only 1 person in 100 gains from this and takes it further it's worth it. .

    English is an international language, Irish isn't.

    Fluent, right. Though no more than the Scots, a thick accent can be a problem abroad.

    English grammar and spelling...not so much.


  • #5
    thedodger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29 ✭thedodger


    Where did you hear that? Not attacking, just curious?

    Your accent is part of who you are, where you came from. It's not 'a problem'

    after the initial short time people take to acclimatize.


  • #6
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    As Niall said why have anything compulsory? I think a language should be compulsory as it provides a good exercise in learning. It disciplines us from a young age to have the ability to learn something from scratch and work to become accomplished at it. Since we live in Ireland the natural choice for a compulsory language would be Irish.


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  • #7
    jive
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,762 ✭✭✭jive


    It shouldn't be compulsory. It provides little to no benefit for the vast, vast majority of people who learn it. The way it is taught throughout education is highly flawed and this is evident in the fact that you learn it for around 15 years and nobody can even speak the language fluently unless they are taught it externally e.g. at home, or live in a ghaeltacht area.

    While I appreciate the reasons for it being taught, I do not these reasons justify it being a compulsory subject. Irish has no use outside of Ireland and has no use inside of Ireland for 99% of people. The time spent learning Irish would be better spent learning international languages like Spanish. I feel that Irish should be offered as a subject, but should not be a compulsory one because it has practical use for but a few individuals.

    TL;DR
    It's not useless, but it will never be relevant enough for it to justify being compulsory.


  • #8
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Why not make it compulsory up to junior cert?
    Everybody will get a grounding in it at this stage.
    For those that enjoy it and want to learn more they can continue with it to the Leaving Cert.


  • #9
    Truman Burbank
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 543 ✭✭✭Truman Burbank


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77331064


  • #10
    UnholyGregor
    Registered Users Posts: 492 ✭✭UnholyGregor


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    the Irish language plays a large role in our cultural heritage
    I've heard about 3 people speak irish natively in my entire life. Its a tax money dump....


  • #11
    finality
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    I wouldn't have a problem with Irish being compulsory to junior cert level. At 16 I think a person has enough knowledge of themselves and how they find the language, to make a conscious decision as to whether to continue with it.

    You can't force a person to learn a language they have no interest in, it's pointless as once they leave school they will not use it at all. In my case learning Irish is a massive waste of time as I plan to leave Ireland after my leaving cert, and I know I will never speak the language once I'm free not to. We could be learning a language which will actually benefit us later in life instead. Why not have everyone learn two European languages?

    The teaching of Irish is a huge problem too. I've learnt German for six years and I'm almost fluent in it, I can speak it comfortably and converse in it without much trouble. Irish, on the other hand, I've learnt for 14 years and I just can't speak it. The grammar makes no sense to me as it was never explained clearly. I know for a fact that if Irish were taught in the same way as German I would have no issue with it.
    In German I have loads of notes on grammar and on all sorts of things, in Irish I have never had any such notes. There's no structure to the way Irish is taught, and it's just presumed that people have an excellent grasp of it when that's not necessarily the case.


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  • #12
    bscm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭bscm


    It's basically all down to the constitution, written back in the early 1900's when people were fighting for the Irish identity...

    I agree it's an outdated rule, people would appreciate Irish more if they were given the choice to drop it. Also the structure of the subject needs to change, I could write an essay on the aspects of a patriarchal society in Irish last year but I could barely have a basic conversation.


  • #13
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    I'm not against the Irish lanuguage itself in any way, just the fact that it's compulsory, and also because it's not taught the right way. It's funny how we can teach international languages better than our own - I'm in 6th year and I've been doing french for only 6 years, Irish for nearly 14 years, yet I can make a much better conversation in French than in Irish. That's proof of how badly it's taught. If a language is worth teaching, it's worth teaching right. If it's not going to be dropped as a core subject, then they could at least try new teaching methods. But above that students should be given the option, because most students develop a true resentment for the lanugauge if they're forced to learn it.


  • #14
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    You could make a point about many subjects being "of little to no benefit to most students, and that most will forget about anyway?" History, Geography, English, Art, Music could possibly be considered as such. Education shouldn't be something exclusively driven towards getting a job. It's important that we educate our citizens in a rounded way and seeing as the Irish language plays a large role in our cultural heritage, I wouldn't consider its teaching as useless.

    I agree: maybe teaching the launguage isin't useless, but it's pointless to force Irish on the majority of students who don't need Irish. That's why students should be given the option. Dropping it as a compulsory subject will also respect a basic human right - the right to speak whatever language you wish. Young people need to be given far more freedom in their own education and learn things which they see as relevant to them, not what the government sees relevant to them.


  • #15
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    As a student currently sitting the leaving, I can tell you as someone who enjoys speaking the language, the current course is a massive turn-off (yes, sexually too:cool:).

    Its all poems, and extra poems if you don't do another depressing Irish novel, and then Prós which are vile, violent, boring stories that only serve as to dishearten people like me who take pride in being able to speak some of it, and encourage others to bitch and complain and start threads on it.


  • #16
    cathalio11
    Registered Users Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭cathalio11


    Not only is the language dying, but they don't even teach it right.

    They don't teach you how to speak Irish, they teach you how to sit the exam.

    Same with French and German.

    I spent one year in a Dutch part of Belgium, no French outside French class. Came back far exceeding Leaving Cert standard.


  • #17
    Togepi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,813 ✭✭✭Togepi


    donvito99 wrote: »
    As a student currently sitting the leaving, I can tell you as someone who enjoys speaking the language, the current course is a massive turn-off (yes, sexually too:cool:).

    Its all poems, and extra poems if you don't do another depressing Irish novel, and then Prós which are vile, violent, boring stories that only serve as to dishearten people like me who take pride in being able to speak some of it, and encourage others to bitch and complain and start threads on it.

    Count yourself lucky, last year we had to do an extra eight poems, and stair na Gaeilge. Plus the oral only counted for 20%. Paper II was way worse then, and it was worth about 180 marks.


  • #18
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    donvito99 wrote: »
    As a student currently sitting the leaving, I can tell you as someone who enjoys speaking the language, the current course is a massive turn-off (yes, sexually too:cool:).

    Its all poems, and extra poems if you don't do another depressing Irish novel, and then Prós which are vile, violent, boring stories that only serve as to dishearten people like me who take pride in being able to speak some of it, and encourage others to bitch and complain and start threads on it.

    only I wasn't bitching and complaining about the launguage itself - because I also quite enjoy speaking some of it myself from time to time. I was complaining about how it's taught and the fact that it's compulsory, which are big problems, :pac:


  • #19
    Ms.M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Ms.M


    Had I had the option I wouldn't have done Irish for my LC because it was the one subject I wasn't getting A or Bs in...

    Alas... I was also a complete spa with no connection whatsoever to my own heritage or culture. I thought being Irish was about shamrocks and "having a laugh".

    I would be completey culturally deprived if it hadn't been compulsory. I wouldn't feel myself without it. I would have no cultural identity.There are many cultures on this island and you have to respect all, if you don't love Irish don't go on about it being a dead language, just accept that it is a minority culture. And stop claiming it as yours to trash.

    Cultural diversity is most certainly a beautiful thing and Irish, along with so many other minority languages, must be protected. It's not a dead thing, it's an entire culture, if it goes, that culture is dead. My kids won't be stressed out by Irish as I was because it will be their first language. That is the solution, and the only positive outcome. I know it's hard to imagine when you're 16 but really there's a big world out there and you might change your mind about what's important in a few years time.

    This thread utterly depresses me.


  • #20
    F9Devil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭F9Devil


    I've talked to the people in UCD Science who say UCD are trying to get it taken off the requirements.

    Irish should always be an option, just like any other subject, but it shouldn't be compulsory. I can't see it staying like it is for long.


  • #21
    guitarzero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭guitarzero


    Why must anything be compulsory? Who gets to decide where we must nail ourselves for hours at a desk?


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  • #22
    F9Devil
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 109 ✭✭F9Devil


    For a "well-rounded education".
    I for one don't believe Irish has any place in modern Irish education however.


  • #23
    finality
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    Ms.M wrote: »
    Had I had the option I wouldn't have done Irish for my LC because it was the one subject I wasn't getting A or Bs in...

    Alas... I was also a complete spa with no connection whatsoever to my own heritage or culture. I thought being Irish was about shamrocks and "having a laugh".

    I would be completey culturally deprived if it hadn't been compulsory. I wouldn't feel myself without it. I would have no cultural identity.There are many cultures on this island and you have to respect all, if you don't love Irish don't go on about it being a dead language, just accept that it is a minority culture. And stop claiming it as yours to trash.

    Cultural diversity is most certainly a beautiful thing and Irish, along with so many other minority languages, must be protected. It's not a dead thing, it's an entire culture, if it goes, that culture is dead. My kids won't be stressed out by Irish as I was because it will be their first language. That is the solution, and the only positive outcome. I know it's hard to imagine when you're 16 but really there's a big world out there and you might change your mind about what's important in a few years time.

    This thread utterly depresses me.

    Having Irish compulsory at leaving cert level does not promote Irish culture though. If anything it makes a lot of people resent it, as let's face it, the prose and poetry on the course are hardly relevant for teenagers, the reading comprehensions are generally dull and the majority of the time is spent learning how to write about social issues.


  • #24
    Bazinga_N
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Bazinga_N


    I'm actually a bit ashamed to call some of you fellow Irishmen...

    Many of us Irish people complain about the British and we say we hate them.. But Why? Many people say it's due to them taking our independence, or our land and our language - Irish. Many years ago all Irishmen spoke Irish and English was kept to English people. I actually find it quite funny that today English people speak English and Irish people speak English.

    I went to a Gaelscoil.... When I was there all I did was complain about being made speak Irish.. Got to an English speaking Secondary School.. It made me realise how much I actually liked Irish... I had an identity, as did my fellow classmates.. I wasn't they guy who liked Music... Or the guy into Sports... I was the guy who was smart enough, to take pride in Irish.. And Call myself a True Irish Man..

    And that's something people say.. ''If you don't like Guinness your not Irish'' or if you ''Don't play GAA'' your not Irish.. Well In My Opinion if ''you don't Speak Irish, your not Irish'', Just like Italians speak Italian, The French speak French or The English Speak English.. Why shouldn't we have a unique language?

    Also, people say Irish isn't a modern language... It's like Latin or Ancient Greek.. I strongly disagree.. I speak Irish on a daily basis.. As do many of my friends.. and fellow classmates.. as does every student in my past primary school... as does many people across the nation.. How is this language dead? The day Irish will die.. is the day the world will end... Because I know that even if it did go optional... The Irish race wouldn't be so stupid as to let the language die... Because some people like myself, have pride in our country.. and it's language..


    Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam


  • #25
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »
    Hi,
    The same question's been going through my head for god knows how long, and I know threads about this issue have been stated many times before: Why on earth must Irish be compulsory for the Leaving Cert? Why force students to ''learn'' a language that is of little to no benefit to most students, and that most will forget about anyway? Why is the government wasting so much money on having Irish as a compulsory subject when they could: either give students the option to learn it of their own free will, and save money, or introduce a more useful subject? It's ridiculous,
    Opinions?

    Just in case you are not aware, there have been many threads released about this subject over the years, the latest being 34 pages long, with every conceivable argument for (and against) Compulsive LC Irish > After Hours > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056557067


  • #26
    finality
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    Bazinga_N wrote: »
    I'm actually a bit ashamed to call some of you fellow Irishmen...

    Many of us Irish people complain about the British and we say we hate them.. But Why? Many people say it's due to them taking our independence, or our land and our language - Irish. Many years ago all Irishmen spoke Irish and English was kept to English people. I actually find it quite funny that today English people speak English and Irish people speak English.

    I went to a Gaelscoil.... When I was there all I did was complain about being made speak Irish.. Got to an English speaking Secondary School.. It made me realise how much I actually liked Irish... I had an identity, as did my fellow classmates.. I wasn't they guy who liked Music... Or the guy into Sports... I was the guy who was smart enough, to take pride in Irish.. And Call myself a True Irish Man..

    And that's something people say.. ''If you don't like Guinness your not Irish'' or if you ''Don't play GAA your not Irish''.. Well In My Opinion if ''you don't Speak Irish, your not Irish'', Just like Italians speak Italian, The French speak French or The English Speak English.. Why shouldn't we have a unique language?

    Also, people say Irish isn't a modern language, it's a dead language, like Latin or Ancient Greek.. I strongly disagree.. I speak Irish on a daily basis.. As do many of my friends.. and fellow classmates.. as does every student in my past primary school... as does many people across the nation.. How is this language dead? The day Irish will die.. is the day the world will end... Because I know that even if it did go optional... The Irish race wouldn't be so stupid as to let the language die... Because some people like myself, have pride in our country.. and it's language..


    Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam

    Ok, you have pride in Irish, nobody wants to take the option of learning the language away from you. I know there are plenty of people who would still opt to do Irish for the leaving cert. That doesn't mean that people like me, who don't place so much importance on a national identity, should be forced to study a language we'll never make use of after leaving school. I could be putting my time to much better use.

    I would actually be completely for one universal language, which would promote unity worldwide instead of the current "my country is better than yours" attitude which pretty much prevails.


  • #27
    reznov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 921 ✭✭✭reznov


    Irish should not be strictly compulsory. If you want heritage, learn it in your own time outside of school or make it an option. English citizens speak English, but so do 375 million individuals around the world. It is an international language. Luckily we have forward thinking minds who realise that a country must evolve. Without English, Ireland would probably not be in the EU or have rapidly developed into a once thriving economy. I personally doubt businesses such as Intel or Vodafone would take time to hire and train staff to accommodate the need for Irish, just to operate in one country. Perhaps I am wrong in saying so! However, the Gaeltacht area alone does not equate to 375 million speakers, and so English is a more valuable language.

    Also, being able to coagulate words in to a sentence does not mean you know English. The one unfortunate downside to English education here is that no time is portioned to learning technical aspects of English. All we do is read poems, novels, dramas and memorise several quotes to apply in the exam. Of course the biggest farce is the LC where you are rewarded thoroughly for regurgitating prepared essays by your teacher. Unless your language is absolutely illegible, you will not be docked marks for use of basic language. No extra marks are given for aesthetic language either.

    I feel that similar to the British A-Levels, all subjects need to be made optional except for Maths. Why must we force students to educate themselves in what they will never apply? One can only dream.

    George, tell me about the rabbits. :(


  • #28
    stevenf17
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 271 ✭✭stevenf17


    Bazinga_N wrote: »
    Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam

    Ya see the thing is, after being "thought" irish for nearly 15 years there's not hope I could even remotely understand what you just wrote!

    Sat the leaving 3 years ago and I'd have to agree with the OP that for the way its currently thought it shouldn't be compulsory (for the leaving cert anyway)
    For me, having to do Irish actually made my overall results in the leaving suffer as I had to waste time(imo) learning something I had feck all comprehension for and no desire to learn as I just couldn't get my head around it all. (I did Ordinary level in the end, but it was a struggle)
    Some people, myself included, just don't have the same natural ability to learn languages as other people. for eg. I've always gotten far better results in practical/logical based subjects like engineering/maths/geography.. etc than language based subjects because well, that's just not how my brain works.
    Personally i don't think people should be forced into learning something that practically has very little use and can eventually impede them in excelling at other subjects!
    With the way it was thought to me, it made me absolutely dread going to class and I relished the days we didn't have any!

    All that being said I ws thought french for 6 years and never really had any problems with that... my results were never as good as my practical/logical subjects but it was prob down to french being more structured than Irish!


  • #29
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,053 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Bazinga_N wrote: »
    I'm actually a bit ashamed to call some of you fellow Irishmen...

    Many of us Irish people complain about the British and we say we hate them.. But Why? Many people say it's due to them taking our independence, or our land and our language - Irish. Many years ago all Irishmen spoke Irish and English was kept to English people. I actually find it quite funny that today English people speak English and Irish people speak English.

    Americans speak English as well. Should they be ashamed of themselves? Maybe they should make up a language that no-one else can speak so they can call themselves Americans.
    Bazinga_N wrote: »
    And that's something people say.. ''If you don't like Guinness your not Irish'' or if you ''Don't play GAA your not Irish''..

    And those people are morons.


  • #30
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Just in case you are not aware, there have been many threads released about this subject over the years, the latest being 34 pages long, with every conceivable argument for (and against) Compulsive LC Irish > After Hours > http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056557067

    yeah I know I mentioned at the start that there were already many threads about compulsory Irish,


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  • #31
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    Bazinga_N wrote: »
    I'm actually a bit ashamed to call some of you fellow Irishmen...

    Many of us Irish people complain about the British and we say we hate them.. But Why? Many people say it's due to them taking our independence, or our land and our language - Irish. Many years ago all Irishmen spoke Irish and English was kept to English people. I actually find it quite funny that today English people speak English and Irish people speak English.

    I went to a Gaelscoil.... When I was there all I did was complain about being made speak Irish.. Got to an English speaking Secondary School.. It made me realise how much I actually liked Irish... I had an identity, as did my fellow classmates.. I wasn't they guy who liked Music... Or the guy into Sports... I was the guy who was smart enough, to take pride in Irish.. And Call myself a True Irish Man..

    And that's something people say.. ''If you don't like Guinness your not Irish'' or if you ''Don't play GAA'' your not Irish.. Well In My Opinion if ''you don't Speak Irish, your not Irish'', Just like Italians speak Italian, The French speak French or The English Speak English.. Why shouldn't we have a unique language?

    Also, people say Irish isn't a modern language... It's like Latin or Ancient Greek.. I strongly disagree.. I speak Irish on a daily basis.. As do many of my friends.. and fellow classmates.. as does every student in my past primary school... as does many people across the nation.. How is this language dead? The day Irish will die.. is the day the world will end... Because I know that even if it did go optional... The Irish race wouldn't be so stupid as to let the language die... Because some people like myself, have pride in our country.. and it's language..


    Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam

    many people can't speak any Irish and don't want to. Don't blame that on them. It was the piss-poor way of teaching it and the fact that they were forced to learn it that drove them away from real engagement with the language. If somethings forced on you, then you naturally get to resent it. Irish is one of those things. It's one of the reasons why there are so many negative attitudes towards Irish nowadays.


  • #32
    Zirconia
    Registered Users Posts: 386 ✭✭Zirconia
    Boycott Israeli Goods & Services


    As an Irish language hater myself, I believe the fact that is is compulsory is the biggest factor in making so many people dislike the language. I refuse to converse with anyone who speaks to me in Irish, and as my kids are about to do their leaving cert this year and next year and are finding this subject difficult, I've told them to ignore it and concentrate all their efforts in the real subjects.


  • #33
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    This thread utterly depresses me

    This thread wasn't made to ''depress'' anyone. Why would it depress you anyway? :confused: Everyone has the right to an opinion on Irish, either positive or negative, and I respect your opinion. But I stated very clear problems with Irish that we all know exist, no matter what your opinion is on Irish: How it's forced on young people and the way it's currently taught.


  • #34
    Ms.M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 439 ✭✭Ms.M


    I see. Any opinions you want to share on any other minority cultures so? No, sometimes you should not "respect" other peoples opinions. English and Maths are also "forced on young children." And people studying English all across Europe study Shakespeare at second level for God sake! The reason why a lot of Irish kids hate it is because their parents tell them they should (trust me, I've had debates with many students) and frankly because the standard is very high (it is a first language or language of educational instruction for many people). I'm talking as someone who was not fond of Irish in second-level due to my own laziness and someone who teaches Irish in second-level currently. I'll leave this thread to who it was made for. Enjoy folks! Any opinions about Travellers? Refugees? Get it off your chests, please, your opinions are just so valuable!


  • #35
    Stark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,053 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Ms.M wrote:
    I'll leave this thread to who it was made for. Enjoy folks! Any opinions about Travellers? Refugees?

    Ah jesus. At least you left out Nazis so we can't invoke Godwin's law.


  • #36
    Namlub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,298 ✭✭✭Namlub


    Ms.M wrote: »
    I see. Any opinions you want to share on any other minority cultures so? No, sometimes you should not "respect" other peoples opinions. English and Maths are also "forced on young children." And people studying English all across Europe study Shakespeare at second level for God sake! The reason why a lot of Irish kids hate it is because their parents tell them they should (trust me, I've had debates with many students) and frankly because the standard is very high (it is a first language or language of educational instruction for many people). I'm talking as someone who was not fond of Irish in second-level due to my own laziness and someone who teaches Irish in second-level currently. I'll leave this thread to who it was made for. Enjoy folks! Any opinions about Travellers? Refugees? Get it off your chests, please, your opinions are just so valuable!
    There's no need to be hysterical, if a bunch of LC students can respect the fact that others have opinions they don't necessarily agree with, surely you should too?

    I have no problem with the language itself, but it seems funny to me that the people who insist that it's going from strength to strength are the same people who seem terrified at the prospect of students being able to exercise their own free will when it comes to studying it.
    Also, get rid of the sraith pictiurs. Seriously.


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  • #37
    guitarzero
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭guitarzero


    It has to be acknowledged that the education system has and is making a hash of it with regards to the Irish language. The fact that a mere fraction of the population can only string a cupla focail together is a dire indication that its utterly flawed. How can anyone advocate this?? I'm not a fan of our education system anyway but the fruits of Irish in schools are none.

    This thing around identity is just an idea. Ireland has gone through so many cultural changes that one simply cannot say whole heartedly that there is an Irish identity. I've never looked at Irish people and felt an affinity, and I'm a gaelgeoir.

    I'd like to hear what the Irish identity is.


  • #38
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    The latest census results show that more people speak Polish at home than speak Irish.
    In fact nearly as many speak French at home as Irish.
    This speaks volumes for the uselessness of 14 years of learning Irish in this country.
    Sorry no link!

    Let everybody get a splash of Irish to Junior Cert level - (personally I didn't get any better afterwards anyway)
    And then leave it optional for the Leaving Cert.

    Maybe give bonus points in the LC to make it attractive to keep on ??
    (carrot rather than stick approach??)


  • #39
    jumpguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭jumpguy


    Improve how it's taught in primary school, make it the primary language of use in primary schools (much like the Gaelscoils).

    Make it harder to get into primary school teaching. A B2 or even B1 in HL Irish should be the matriculation requirement, there are many a wannabe primary teacher that hated Irish, but scraped the C3 and got in - and god help the future students they have...

    Remove Irish and English as a matriculation requirement for relevant courses in the NUI (such as mechanical engineering, for example, where you're never gonna need flowery English or Irish). Remove maths where it's not relevant at all (Ancient Greece Studies). At the moment, no subjects are compulsory at Leaving Cert level. The only problem is, English, Irish and maths are mandatory for the vast majority of courses, especially in the NUIs.


  • #40
    Dwellingdweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 825 ✭✭✭Dwellingdweller


    jive wrote: »
    It shouldn't be compulsory. It provides little to no benefit for the vast, vast majority of people who learn it. The way it is taught throughout education is highly flawed and this is evident in the fact that you learn it for around 15 years and nobody can even speak the language fluently unless they are taught it externally e.g. at home, or live in a ghaeltacht area.

    While I appreciate the reasons for it being taught, I do not these reasons justify it being a compulsory subject. Irish has no use outside of Ireland and has no use inside of Ireland for 99% of people. The time spent learning Irish would be better spent learning international languages like Spanish. I feel that Irish should be offered as a subject, but should not be a compulsory one because it has practical use for but a few individuals.

    TL;DR
    It's not useless, but it will never be relevant enough for it to justify being compulsory.

    I agree with you on this, but think about it. If the scenario was reversed, i.e if Irish was in the position English is in and vice versa in this country, it'd be very difficult to become fluent at English too. Another thing is the cultural aspect of it. The internet, TV, movies, books, games, music... 99% of it's in English. We're an Americanized country and that's why English comes easier to us than Irish. After all, if we're hearing English 99% of the time, then logic dictates that we'll probably speak it that amount of the time too. What I'm saying is that there's very few places where you can become "immersed" in the Irish language (unless you do it to yourself on purpose :rolleyes:), not like where you can go to say France and all you'll hear is French, French music, French TV etc. We can't even do that in our own country. Take from that what you will but it's not exactly something we should take pride in...

    This all coming from a LC student living in the Gaeltacht who hates being forced to speak Irish, btw. The way it's taught nearly made me hate it permanently but it is quite a beautiful language, and I'm proud that I speak it


  • #41
    Dwellingdweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 825 ✭✭✭Dwellingdweller


    Zirconia wrote: »
    As an Irish language hater myself, I believe the fact that is is compulsory is the biggest factor in making so many people dislike the language. I refuse to converse with anyone who speaks to me in Irish, and as my kids are about to do their leaving cert this year and next year and are finding this subject difficult, I've told them to ignore it and concentrate all their efforts in the real subjects.

    ...wtf?
    that's just ignorant.


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  • #42
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    I've said this before and I'll say it again. Learning a language is beneficial for a number of reasons. It trains the mind to assimilate information from scratch and to develop it to a particular level of proficiency. That's a vital skill in the working world. I speak both Irish and French and have a basic knowledge of Italian. There is no language more challenging and therefore beneficial than Irish. the fact that it's our national language I think gives it a fair shout at claiming seniority.

    As to it's direct practicality no the ability to speak Irish is not essential but neither is knowing about zygotes, ox-bow lakes, Hastings, H2O, comment tu t'appelle, Shakespeare or any other pointless nonsense you pick up in secondary school. Ask anyone who's been to college if anything they learned in secondary gave them any practical advantage and invariably they'll say no as most colleges will assume ignorance of the subject material in most courses.


  • #43
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    Ms.M wrote: »
    I see. Any opinions you want to share on any other minority cultures so? No, sometimes you should not "respect" other peoples opinions. English and Maths are also "forced on young children." And people studying English all across Europe study Shakespeare at second level for God sake! The reason why a lot of Irish kids hate it is because their parents tell them they should (trust me, I've had debates with many students) and frankly because the standard is very high (it is a first language or language of educational instruction for many people). I'm talking as someone who was not fond of Irish in second-level due to my own laziness and someone who teaches Irish in second-level currently. I'll leave this thread to who it was made for. Enjoy folks! Any opinions about Travellers? Refugees? Get it off your chests, please, your opinions are just so valuable!

    Other compulsory subjects such as Maths are hated purely out of difficulty, however at least they'll be more useful and relevant to everyone's later life. No matter what job you go into, Maths and English will always be involved at some stage. Irish won't, unless Irish is specifically relevant to the job.

    When I say ''respect your opinion'' I respect your right to your own opinion, even if I didn't like it. And I also (unlike a lot of people) respect your right to state your own opinion and point of view.


  • #44
    bscm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭bscm


    MyKeyG wrote: »
    Ask anyone who's been to college if anything they learned in secondary gave them any practical advantage and invariably they'll say no as most colleges will assume ignorance of the subject material in most courses.

    I don't agree, I do believe that other subjects are more useful than Irish and give a more practical benefit after the exams. I'm studying Science at TCD (aiming to get a degree in Astrophysics), and without having studied Physics and HL Maths for the Leaving Cert, I would have dropped out of college a long time ago. Most lecturers assume little knowledge of the subject at an advanced level, but that the student has gained or will immediately be self-learning good deal of background information. Some of my course who studied OL Maths are struggling greatly, because within one week we immediately started subjects which had taken up to 3 months to grasp during the Leaving Cert. In the Science sector of college, a lot of things can't easily be picked up from a book and need proper teaching or a natural affinity for the subject. It's a lot easier to learn about the Battle of Hastings from a book or pick up a dictionary to translate a word, but it's near impossible to fully understand Quantum Mechanics without previous knowledge of basic material.

    I also have yet to speak a word of Irish aside from craic. And I have no plans to use or speak Irish in the future.


  • #45
    Dwellingdweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 825 ✭✭✭Dwellingdweller


    Stark wrote: »
    Americans speak English as well. Should they be ashamed of themselves? Maybe they should make up a language that no-one else can speak so they can call themselves Americans.

    Now that's just a strawman, plain and simple. The amount of different languages that were flying around when the first colonists arrived in America made it difficult to do business/get anything done, so eventually because of handiness (mostly) people just switched to using English and English alone. If every colonist who first went to America spoke "American", then aye, they would have some linguistic heritage like Irish to conserve. But they didn't, so what you're saying makes ZERO sense.


  • #46
    MyKeyG
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,282 ✭✭✭MyKeyG


    bscm wrote: »
    I don't agree, I do believe that other subjects are more useful than Irish and give a more practical benefit after the exams. I'm studying Science at TCD (aiming to get a degree in Astrophysics), and without having studied Physics and HL Maths for the Leaving Cert, I would have dropped out of college a long time ago. Most lecturers assume little knowledge of the subject at an advanced level, but that the student has gained or will immediately be self-learning good deal of background information. Some of my course who studied OL Maths are struggling greatly, because within one week we immediately started subjects which had taken up to 3 months to grasp during the Leaving Cert. In the Science sector of college, a lot of things can't easily be picked up from a book and need proper teaching or a natural affinity for the subject. It's a lot easier to learn about the Battle of Hastings from a book or pick up a dictionary to translate a word, but it's near impossible to fully understand Quantum Mechanics without previous knowledge of basic material.

    I also have yet to speak a word of Irish aside from craic. And I have no plans to use or speak Irish in the future.
    With all due respect in my opinion how a person manages in third level education is more reflective of their efforts/abilities than what they learned in school. There are lots of people who didn't do any number of specific subjects at second level yet pursue them at third level. I did the leaving cert during the IT revolution. No school that I knew of did any IT subjects yet many of my generation went on to various IT sciences. People go on to study psychology yet there are very few if any schools that offer a syllabus on psychology. The same with sociology, philosophy etc many of which are considered difficult sciences.

    I did accounting for the leaving certificate and went on to pursue it as a career for a time. My accounting teacher may as well have been teaching us Zulu for all the benefit it did me in the real world. The leaving cert in my view is designed to give students a taste of the variety of subjects they can pursue after secondary school and give them basic fundamentals concerning the same. With very few exceptions I don't believe for a second anything you learn in middle level education is worth squat from a practical point of view.

    Just my opinion.


  • #47
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    Bazinga_N wrote: »
    I'm actually a bit ashamed to call some of you fellow Irishmen...

    Many of us Irish people complain about the British and we say we hate them.. But Why? Many people say it's due to them taking our independence, or our land and our language - Irish. Many years ago all Irishmen spoke Irish and English was kept to English people. I actually find it quite funny that today English people speak English and Irish people speak English.

    I went to a Gaelscoil.... When I was there all I did was complain about being made speak Irish.. Got to an English speaking Secondary School.. It made me realise how much I actually liked Irish... I had an identity, as did my fellow classmates.. I wasn't they guy who liked Music... Or the guy into Sports... I was the guy who was smart enough, to take pride in Irish.. And Call myself a True Irish Man..

    And that's something people say.. ''If you don't like Guinness your not Irish'' or if you ''Don't play GAA'' your not Irish.. Well In My Opinion if ''you don't Speak Irish, your not Irish'', Just like Italians speak Italian, The French speak French or The English Speak English.. Why shouldn't we have a unique language?

    Also, people say Irish isn't a modern language... It's like Latin or Ancient Greek.. I strongly disagree.. I speak Irish on a daily basis.. As do many of my friends.. and fellow classmates.. as does every student in my past primary school... as does many people across the nation.. How is this language dead? The day Irish will die.. is the day the world will end... Because I know that even if it did go optional... The Irish race wouldn't be so stupid as to let the language die... Because some people like myself, have pride in our country.. and it's language..


    Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam

    I have to say that is one of the most arrogant posts I've ever read on LC. Who the hell made you the deciding factor on who is Irish, completely ignoring the huge socioeconomic issues involved? You know who speaks Irish these days in reality? The odd few people in the gaeltacht and then a **** tonne of upper middle class people who want to appear 'cultured'.

    I don't agree with Irish being mandatory but I do believe it should be taught as French, I think it would be far better if it wasn't allowed to be mangled by primary teachers with barely a C3 and then facing into 6 years of poetry and prose that are of such poor quality you'd never see them in an English textbook.


  • #48
    grantyrs10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 131 ✭✭grantyrs10


    Zirconia wrote: »
    As an Irish language hater myself, I believe the fact that is is compulsory is the biggest factor in making so many people dislike the language. I refuse to converse with anyone who speaks to me in Irish, and as my kids are about to do their leaving cert this year and next year and are finding this subject difficult, I've told them to ignore it and concentrate all their efforts in the real subjects.



    I strongly disagree... the above comment virtually made me sick . this is the reason why Irish is in a decline. A person who has no sense of culture or pride in one's native language. I t disgusts me that one would refuse to converse in irish to someone who may wish to do so !


  • #49
    grantyrs10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 131 ✭✭grantyrs10


    Chuchoter wrote: »
    I have to say that is one of the most arrogant posts I've ever read on LC. Who the hell made you the deciding factor on who is Irish, completely ignoring the huge socioeconomic issues involved? You know who speaks Irish these days in reality? The odd few people in the gaeltacht and then a **** tonne of upper middle class people who want to appear 'cultured'.

    I don't agree with Irish being mandatory but I do believe it should be taught as French, I think it would be far better if it wasn't allowed to be mangled by primary teachers with barely a C3 and then facing into 6 years of poetry and prose that are of such poor quality you'd never see them in an English textbook.


    I do not agree in any way that the above post is arrogant. How can it be arrogant when a person is merely debating his view along with anecdotes to his own life.


  • #50
    GaryIrv93
    Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    There's so many more practical (and very useful) subjects that could also be introduced in schools. Why not introduce something such as ''Driving Skills'' - introducing road rules, safety, how to use gearshifts and clutches, etc - everything a driver would need to know? Hell, maybe introduce car simulators to schools, so young people would be enouraged to drive at an earlier age. Considering there's a much greater emphasis on SexEd I don't see the harm in introducing Driving Skills too. It's a skill that pretty much all young people we need in their future lives. Another one I'd like to see would be a subject teaching students all about engines - how they work, how to fix certain common problems with car engines: repairing punctured tyres, how to sort out a breakdown, how to replace break-pads...there's a long list. Subjects like these should be introduced to teach useful skills - if my car breaks down on a deserted road, which would help me more: Knowing exactly what's wrong and how to fix it - which could end up saving my life, or not knowing how to fix it, but knowing how to string a few cupla focail together? I'd make Irish optional to respect a basic human right - to speak whatever language you wish, but I wouldn't dare try to take the Irsh language away from anyone who would want to speak it, even though it wouldn't be useful to me myself.


  • #51
    Chuchoter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    grantyrs10 wrote: »
    I do not agree in any way that the above post is arrogant. How can it be arrogant when a person is merely debating his view along with anecdotes to his own life.

    He's after declaring the majority of the country not Irish from the very privileged position of having parents clearly middle class and interested in education enough to send him there. He's discounting all the families from working class backgrounds who might not have the same access to things like gaeltachts, families interested in Irish or gaelscoils. Its great he speaks Irish, does he get to call everyone else not Irish? No.


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