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Farming and Gas Fracking
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22-06-2011 12:41am#1
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The country is headed for financial austerity that will drive up the cost of living if we dont look inward for resources. We are far too dependant on importing oil and gas. The cost of these reources are only going to get higher.
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What makes you think the Irish consumer will see any benefit from this gas in terms of price and revenue
- It will be sold at international market rates by these private companies just like imported gas!!
PS: Nuclear is the only long term viable option IMO anyway - and I agree with you about those poxy wind-farms, waste of money, ugly and totally inefficient!!0 -
What makes you think the Irish consumer will see any benefit from this gas in terms of price and revenue - It will be sold at international market rates by these private companies just like imported gas!!
PS: Nuclear is the only long term viable option IMO anyway - and I agree with you about those poxy wind-farms, waste of money, ugly and totally inefficient!!
You should read some articles on it. There was one in the Irish times a few weeks back that gave a view from both sides as opposed to the continuous green drone that we have heard up to this!!
The exploration is all taking place on private lands owned by private individuals. In order for the exploration companies to go onto these lands to "explore", they need to have permission from the landowner. They have already stated that they will pay compensation to any landowners in exchange for permission to go onto the land. If they find gas during these explorations and wish to remove it, they will have to buy it from the landowner.
In comparison to "recent case histories in this country" such as that with Shell in County Mayo who appear to have been given full permission to extract the gas from the Irish Shoreline without having to pay for it in any way or give a share of the profits back to the government. Instead, Shell get rich on the back of the Irish people while we continue for the next 50 years to pay back our loans to the IMF. The above exploration licences granted for the Lough Allen Basin are to private companies who must make deals with local landowners if they wish to explore on their privately owned land. If, in 20 years time, gas is to be extracted from the Lough Allen Basin, the landowners will be paid for it.0 -
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What makes you think the Irish consumer will see any benefit from this gas in terms of price and revenue - It will be sold at international market rates by these private companies just like imported gas!!
PS: Nuclear is the only long term viable option IMO anyway - and I agree with you about those poxy wind-farms, waste of money, ugly and totally inefficient!!
Just out of interest where would your potential locations for nuclear plants be?0 -
Corsendonk wrote: »Just out of interest where would your potential locations for nuclear plants be?
Dublin, Cork, Waterford, Galway and Limerick.
Locate them close to the centres that use most electricity. Shorter cable networks will be required and it will be more profitable for them!! If all electricity in these cities was supplied by Nuclear Power, there would be enough capacity in existing (Rural Based) wind farms to power the rest of the country.
I have the same view on Incinerators for incinerating waste - they should be built in or on the outskirts of cities that produce the most waste. Yet several proposed sites in regional development plans are very rural based. Why should the rural people pay the price for the wasted produced in urban areas??
When they produce it, they should be able to deal with it!!
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What makes you think the Irish consumer will see any benefit from this gas in terms of price and revenue - It will be sold at international market rates by these private companies just like imported gas!!
PS: Nuclear is the only long term viable option IMO anyway - and I agree with you about those poxy wind-farms, waste of money, ugly and totally inefficient!!
Maybe I'm being a bit simplistic in my expectations - I live in the middle east- Petrol is cheap because it is sourced down the road effectively.
The main point is that we would have the ability to produce our own energy. Off the top of my head, America uses something like 20 million barrels of oil a day ( Open to correction) either ways they use a colosal amount. We will not be able to compete with them if supplies are put under pressure. The ability to self support is always preferable. ( The way "we" have sold our resources to private companies is another rant)
I havent been fully sold on Nuclear but reality dictates we cant keep going the way we are and renexable ist an option at the moment. To remove Oil from the supply line for the UK (transport included), you'd have to cover every inch of land in PV cells at better-than-current-maximum efficiencies, and include wind / wave / hydro generation ... and you still don't come close !
Unfortunately, renewables just dont cut it...0 -
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Heres the ink for the article in The Irish Times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0611/1224298716471.html
And Ronan has interviews with the two main players as links on the right of the article. Tbh I found these interviews enlightening. I do think there is a fair amount of spin involved. especially when private firms welcome the input of environmentalists!! And therefore I think people need to briefed up. Also in the main article when a councillor starts to talk about sinister vested interests I figure he is muddying the water, playing the man and not the ball. And he certainly is not acting in the interests of his constituents. Why cant people from Rossport be concerned about similar unproven exploration techniques that could be detrimental to health and livestock?
I am not involved with Cinema North West (I am beginning to think sadly am not!) nor the Green party but am a member of a non party aligned group called Claiming our Future. www.claimingourfuture.ie They were set up as a grassroots organisation with local subgroups calling for the need for political reform, environmental sustainability, lessen inequalities between people, create sustainable jobs. All volunteers, no agenda very much a social movement on the ground.
Anyway, My main concern is that people (and me!) get an opportunity to get as much information about this procedure as possible. And indeed the film is one useful way to reach as many people (more if it weren’t for the price.
) as possible and it’s a springboard to eventually come to an informed decision based on all the facts. And I suppose we aren’t here to review the film but if even some of the issues raised were proven then that would e enough in my view to halt this at a government level until firmer international statistics came through. E.g. The Environmental protection agency is due to have a review of current processes in America I believe in 2012/2013. I wouldnt trust an environmental regulator, with this type of new proceudre would they have the expertise for a start? We have been let down badly by regulators in the past.
This coupled with the fact that it has been banned in France and it’s under review in England since the earth tremors/quake in Blackpool resulting from this procedure a few weeks ago is substantial cause for concern. My view would be that we cant let the economic climate force our hand on this, and we need to ensure that we act in the interests of people and lets face it our children in this situation. So halt until the facts come through?
It appears that it is many of those same farmers that are the worst effected by the negative health side effects of the fracking contaminating their drinking water etc that I wonder how many of them would sign over their land again if they had the decision again. And for fear of sounding green in every way (Cos I am not!) I really am proud of where I live, the food produce, the landscape that it’s also about investing in sustainable jobs in farming, in tourism in renewable energies. And it renegotiating those licences- we may get a better deal than Corrib but sure we are consistently getting fined for not meeting environmental targets that we’ll be paying back anyhow?:(
And before you ask it I am not a "blow in" in Leitrim. My people gone before me lie up in the graveyard!! I just don’t want to be joining them anytime soon!
:D 0 -
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I never suggested that you were a blow in.
I am somewhat familiar with claiming our future and I admire many of their principles. I was trying to point that many of these protests are organised by people who are not from the area. They are professional protestors. They come into an area, create a load of media hype and don't allow people to hear both sides of the story. As I said in my post, I would like to hear from both sides of the argument before I make a decision. I said that I would like to have details of projects where Fracking was successful in finding Gas which supported local economies and brought significant economic development to a region with minimal environmental destruction. As I said, I'm not on either side in the argument, but I don't think its fair that one side should have all of the media attention on such an argument because it then becomes a competition between who can shout the loudest and gain the most media and support as opposed to what would be best for the local area both environmentally and economically - the area that both you and I live in.
If people who are against fracking want to treat the issue with the respect and seriousness that it warrants, they will allow the local people to make up their own minds on what is best for their area based on information from both sides. We have had enough of being told how to think and how to react from successive government parties and look at the mess that it has gotten us into.
Its not the 1950's. Many young people have moved back into this area at the end of their education. Levels of education are high among the majority of people and they are able to make their own decision without being influenced by anyone with a green or an economic agenda.
Give all the facts - the good and the bad - that's being respectful to the people of the area. That's being serious. People who have an alternative agenda should keep it to themselves!!!
EDIT:
Just to add a quote from www.claimingourfuture.ieOur 5 Values
• Equality for all
• Environmental sustainability
• Accountability from those in power
• Participation by people in decision making that impacts on them
• Solidarity between all sectors of society
The first, second, third and fourth points are the essence of what I was trying to say above.Heres the ink for the article in The Irish Times.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0611/1224298716471.html
And Ronan has interviews with the two main players as links on the right of the article. Tbh I found these interviews enlightening. I do think there is a fair amount of spin involved. especially when private firms welcome the input of environmentalists!! And therefore I think people need to briefed up. Also in the main article when a councillor starts to talk about sinister vested interests I figure he is muddying the water, playing the man and not the ball. And he certainly is not acting in the interests of his constituents. Why cant people from Rossport be concerned about similar unproven exploration techniques that could be detrimental to health and livestock?
I am not involved with Cinema North West (I am beginning to think sadly am not!) nor the Green party but am a member of a non party aligned group called Claiming our Future. www.claimingourfuture.ie They were set up as a grassroots organisation with local subgroups calling for the need for political reform, environmental sustainability, lessen inequalities between people, create sustainable jobs. All volunteers, no agenda very much a social movement on the ground.
Anyway, My main concern is that people (and me!) get an opportunity to get as much information about this procedure as possible. And indeed the film is one useful way to reach as many people (more if it weren’t for the price. ) as possible and it’s a springboard to eventually come to an informed decision based on all the facts. And I suppose we aren’t here to review the film but if even some of the issues raised were proven then that would e enough in my view to halt this at a government level until firmer international statistics came through. E.g. The Environmental protection agency is due to have a review of current processes in America I believe in 2012/2013. I wouldnt trust an environmental regulator, with this type of new proceudre would they have the expertise for a start? We have been let down badly by regulators in the past.
This coupled with the fact that it has been banned in France and it’s under review in England since the earth tremors/quake in Blackpool resulting from this procedure a few weeks ago is substantial cause for concern. My view would be that we cant let the economic climate force our hand on this, and we need to ensure that we act in the interests of people and lets face it our children in this situation. So halt until the facts come through?
It appears that it is many of those same farmers that are the worst effected by the negative health side effects of the fracking contaminating their drinking water etc that I wonder how many of them would sign over their land again if they had the decision again. And for fear of sounding green in every way (Cos I am not!) I really am proud of where I live, the food produce, the landscape that it’s also about investing in sustainable jobs in farming, in tourism in renewable energies. And it renegotiating those licences- we may get a better deal than Corrib but sure we are consistently getting fined for not meeting environmental targets that we’ll be paying back anyhow?:(
And before you ask it I am not a "blow in" in Leitrim. My people gone before me lie up in the graveyard!! I just don’t want to be joining them anytime soon!:D0 -
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I never suggested that you were a blow in.
I am somewhat familiar with claiming our future and I admire many of their principles. I was trying to point that many of these protests are organised by people who are not from the area. They are professional protestors. They come into an area, create a load of media hype and don't allow people to hear both sides of the story. As I said in my post, I would like to hear from both sides of the argument before I make a decision. I said that I would like to have details of projects where Fracking was successful in finding Gas which supported local economies and brought significant economic development to a region with minimal environmental destruction. As I said, I'm not on either side in the argument, but I don't think its fair that one side should have all of the media attention on such an argument because it then becomes a competition between who can shout the loudest and gain the most media and support as opposed to what would be best for the local area both environmentally and economically - the area that both you and I live in.
If people who are against fracking want to treat the issue with the respect and seriousness that it warrants, they will allow the local people to make up their own minds on what is best for their area based on information from both sides. We have had enough of being told how to think and how to react from successive government parties and look at the mess that it has gotten us into.
Its not the 1950's. Many young people have moved back into this area at the end of their education. Levels of education are high among the majority of people and they are able to make their own decision without being influenced by anyone with a green or an economic agenda.
Give all the facts - the good and the bad - that's being respectful to the people of the area. That's being serious. People who have an alternative agenda should keep it to themselves!!!
EDIT:
Just to add a quote from www.claimingourfuture.ie
The first, second, third and fourth points are the essence of what I was trying to say above.
I appreciate you admire most of the COF principles . So okay we wont mention the last one but if you keep mentioning 'agendas' and 'blowins; we wont be getting to solidarity any time soon!!
Gasland the movie for those of you who havent seen it to kick start ones information journey is below . The internet site also includes information on the townlands that the licences are granted for.
http://what-the-frack.org/gas-land-the-movie/0 -
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