RTÉ DTT Reception difficulties in parts of the south east.

16-09-2010 12:36pm #1

bmaxi wrote: »

Thought I'd jump in on this thread rather than start a new one.
I live near Courtown and have been getting perfect DTT reception for about a year, using a rabbits' ears and a Sagem Picnic box.
That is, until a few weeks ago. All RTE channels went off air for two days and now flash up only intermittently, with the box flashing the message "check aerial connections".
Nothing has changed in the set up, I haven't moved the aerial or anything. If I try to retune, the tuner stops only briefly at channel 45, then goes on to report "no channels found". Any clues?

yes.
The signal level from mt leinster has fallen below the threshold required to outdo presely in your area hence you get nothing.
Stupid choice of frequency by rte...

Saorsat for you I'm afraid.

saorsat is meant to be for the 2% of the country that couldn't even get analogue but of course the stupid choice of ch45 for mt leinster means it's unreceivable anywhere theres even a weak presely influence.
RTE have been tricking about with the signal in their tests but cannot make it more powerfull than it is at the moment as they have discovered this wipes out presely reception in west wales...

You'd think educated engineers would have known that in the first place when they chose ch45.. :rolleyes:

You need to contact Brendan Howlin and Mick Darcy both T.D's in wexford who are aware of the situation and explain that RTE's stupid error in choosing ch45 instead of other uninterfered with channels like ch 30,34 or 39 means you are being forced to buy a satelite dish.

bmaxi · 17-09-2010 10:45am

Deleted User wrote: »

yes.
The signal level from mt leinster has fallen below the threshold required to outdo presely in your area hence you get nothing.
Stupid choice of frequency by rte...

Saorsat for you I'm afraid.

saorsat is meant to be for the 2% of the country that couldn't even get analogue but of course the stupid choice of ch45 for mt leinster means it's unreceivable anywhere theres even a weak presely influence.
RTE have been tricking about with the signal in their tests but cannot make it more powerfull than it is at the moment as they have discovered this wipes out presely reception in west wales...

You'd think educated engineers would have known that in the first place when they chose ch45.. :rolleyes:

You need to contact Brendan Howlin and Mick Darcy both T.D's in wexford who are aware of the situation and explain that RTE's stupid error in choosing ch45 instead of other uninterfered with channels like ch 30,34 or 39 means you are being forced to buy a satelite dish.

Let me get this straight before I contact anybody. You say that I can't watch Irish tv channels in Ireland, where I pay my TV licence, because it interferes with someone watching British tv in Britain? So what, I say, I would have thought that was a problem for the British?
I don't have British tv through an aerial but I know people who do and digital at that. I've never heard any complaints of the reverse being true, so how do the Brits manage it?.
I do get Irish TV through a rabbits' ears upstairs here, presumably it's only digital tv that's affected. Will this mean all the people who have had roof aerials installed for Irish tv, will have to get satellite when DTT starts?

17-09-2010 11:29am

It's a problem local to wexford and south wicklow.
It will be partly alleviated in Gorey by the errection of a digital tx there and also in Arklow.
It won't be a problem in Enniscorthy because it's a presely blackspot with a good view to mt leinster.
It is a severe problem to anyone with a welsh aerial connected outside of Gorey or Arklow.
Basically most of rural wexford then unless they are on a hill that can see the graveyard in gorey or the knockenrahan industrial estate in Arklow or can receive kippure.

Tara hill will definitely kill kippure in courtown which is also an area of strong presely reception so yes your area will be one of the worst affected and will need saorsat for reliable digital reception after 2012 when analogue goes off.
I say that because putting up a high gain aerial for mt leinster in that area will 5 days out of 10 bring in presely on it's back end on the stupid channel 45 that rte chose for dtt at mt leinster.
They should not have chosen any channel that is used by presely.
Doing so was careless.

They have available ch 39 that they can use and works very well and is free from presely interference.
They say that they are not licenced to use that channel as it is reserved for commercial services which we all know anyway aren't going to happen anytime soon.
In fact comreg has ruled them out untill at least after analogue switch off.
When aso happens,there will be a choice of using ch's 23 and 26 [currently used for tv3 and tg4 analogue mt leinster]for any commercial services.

Channels 30 and 34 are also internationally cleared for use at mt leinster.
So theres 5 frequencies free from presely interference available to RTE at mt leinster.
They can go on ch 39 from there straight away with a nod and a wink from comreg.
Neither RTE or Comreg can use the excuse that ch 45 is the only option because it isn't.

You can use this information when talking to your local t.d's
Most people receive analogue now and aren't aware of this mess thats so easily fixed by comreg and RTE co operating.They'll know all about it after 2012 if RTE and Comreg don't copp the hell on!
They need to be told to do this as like a lot of public bodies,they are not financially dependent on the thing being done right [like the rest of us in business] so they seem to have an ah shur that will do approach.

bmaxi · 17-09-2010 11:43am

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a problem local to wexford and south wicklow.
It will be partly alleviated in Gorey by the errection of a digital tx there and also in Arklow.
It won't be a problem in Enniscorthy because it's a presely blackspot with a good view to mt leinster.
It is a severe problem to anyone with a welsh aerial connected outside of Gorey or Arklow.
Basically most of rural wexford then unless they are on a hill that can see the graveyard in gorey or the knockenrahan industrial estate in Arklow or can receive kippure.

Tara hill will definitely kill kippure in courtown which is also an area of strong presely reception so yes your area will be one of the worst affected and will need saorsat for reliable digital reception after 2012 when analogue goes off.
I say that because putting up a high gain aerial for mt leinster in that area will 5 days out of 10 bring in presely on it's back end on the stupid channel 45 that rte chose for dtt at mt leinster.
They should not have chosen any channel that is used by presely.
Doing so was careless.

They have available ch 39 that they can use and works very well and is free from presely interference.
They say that they are not licenced to use that channel as it is reserved for commercial services which we all know anyway aren't going to happen anytime soon.
In fact comreg has ruled them out untill at least after analogue switch off.
When aso happens,there will be a choice of using ch's 23 and 26 [currently used for tv3 and tg4 analogue mt leinster]for any commercial services.

Channels 30 and 34 are also internationally cleared for use at mt leinster.
So theres 5 frequencies free from presely interference available to RTE at mt leinster.
They can go on ch 39 from there straight away with a nod and a wink from comreg.
Neither RTE or Comreg can use the excuse that ch 45 is the only option because it isn't.

You can use this information when talking to your local t.d's
Most people receive analogue now and aren't aware of this mess thats so easily fixed by comreg and RTE co operating.They'll know all about it after 2012 if RTE and Comreg don't copp the hell on!
They need to be told to do this as like a lot of public bodies,they are not financially dependent on the thing being done right [like the rest of us in business] so they seem to have an ah shur that will do approach.

Thanks for the detailed reply although it still doesn't explain why we should care about TV reception in Wales. Unless the Welsh have complained, in that case, why not just shift the channel? Would that lead to complications elsewhere or is it a major engineering exercise?

17-09-2010 11:47am

bmaxi wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed reply although it still doesn't explain why we should care about TV reception in Wales. Unless the Welsh have complained, in that case, why not just shift the channel? Would that lead to complications elsewhere or is it a major engineering exercise?

Mt Leinster has uk restrictions so as not to affect viewers in wales using presely.
As it is,they already do interfere with uk reception in wales-so further increases in power from mt leinster are a non starter.

Of course somebody somewhere in RTE when choosing the worst frequencies possible forgot that this interference works both ways.

17-09-2010 11:53am

Just to add.
3 of the 5 frequencies that are free from presely interference are available for use NOW at mt leinster.
Those are ch 39,ch 30 and ch34.

It requires just the simple flick of a switch and the approval of Comreg for their use as public service frequencies.
As there are ample channels free from presely interference (and from causing interference elsewhere) available for both psb and commercial services..Comreg can do this now.

All it requires is the will to do it.There is no impediment.
Politicians however must lobby the minister and Comreg about the situation to get them to get up off their backsides and make it so.

Lets make no mistake about it-choosing ch 45 at mt leinster was wrong and hugely awkward for many many viewers.
Unless changed,it will mean serious problems after 2012.
We as enthusiasts already are aware of the problems that everyone else in the affected areas will see post 2012.

It's unbeliveable that the simple measure of using other available frequencies isn't being availed of.

But really ,they just need to be practically ordered to do this to be honest and thats where your local t.d's come in

watty · 17-09-2010 11:56am

Yes. But look at Comreg's track record. Pasted below.

.

bmaxi · 17-09-2010 12:37pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Just to add.
3 of the 5 frequencies that are free from presely interference are available for use NOW at mt leinster.
Those are ch 39,ch 30 and ch34.

It requires just the simple flick of a switch and the approval of Comreg for their use as public service frequencies.
As there are ample channels free from presely interference (and from causing interference elsewhere) available for both psb and commercial services..Comreg can do this now.

All it requires is the will to do it.There is no impediment.
Politicians however must lobby the minister and Comreg about the situation to get them to get up off their backsides and make it so.

Lets make no mistake about it-choosing ch 45 at mt leinster was wrong and hugely awkward for many many viewers.
Unless changed,it will mean serious problems after 2012.
We as enthusiasts already are aware of the problems that everyone else in the affected areas will see post 2012.

It's unbeliveable that the simple measure of using other available frequencies isn't being availed of.

But really ,they just need to be practically ordered to do this to be honest and thats where your local t.d's come in

So, If I understand this correctly. RTE could have chosen any one of four channels on which to broadcast DTT but chose the only one that would interfere with tv reception in Wales. As a result of this thousands of people are going to have to go to the unnecessary expense of a satellite system, obviously no research was carried out.
FFS, why is this so easy to believe?
When you say D'Arcy and Howlin are aware of this, have they made any representations?

BTW Watty, nothing pasted on your post.

17-09-2010 3:17pm

bmaxi wrote: »

So, If I understand this correctly. RTE could have chosen any one of four channels on which to broadcast DTT but chose the only one that would interfere with tv reception in Wales. As a result of this thousands of people are going to have to go to the unnecessary expense of a satellite system, obviously no research was carried out.
FFS, why is this so easy to believe?

RTE have 7 channells immediately that they can use but ch42,45, and 49 are not workable due to presely.
They can use ch39,30 or 34 immediately with the nod from Comreg.
But nothing is happening on this front.
They have channels 23 and 26 available after analogue switch off.

So basically more than they need by far!

BTW Watty, nothing pasted on your post.

I think thats his point...comreg do nothing..untill we the affected get the politicians on to them

When you say D'Arcy and Howlin are aware of this, have they made any representations?

Howlins colleague Liz McManus has as she is their spokesperson on communications but has been fobbed off.
As I say only a few people have been on to any politicians so far as no body knows about this unless they read this forum.
That will change bigtime after analogue switch off.

By the way ,whilst I am lucky to have kippure here now most of the time,it's only receivable in coolgreaney when it rains :rolleyes:

Mick Darcy attended the last Dáil committee meeting on digital switchover 2 months ago.I understand he has also been fobbed off.
But really the more people that get on to the local politicians about this , the quicker it will be resolved.
Comreg and RTE really do need a kick up the arsé for their lack of action.
It's so simple to fix.

charlie1966 · 17-09-2010 5:45pm

Has anyone tried the media (and not just the net).
I know not much point ringing Joe Duffy:eek: or any RTE related media but wouldn't TV3 execs not be worried if, when they have to pay to be on the service that they will want to be able to be received by the entire population(maybe they don't really give a sh-t though).
There is always Newstalk, Today FM or any of the print media that wants to get another dig in at the incompetence of the current government.
Discussing it here is only getting to a very small number of people. To affect change there needs to be someone articulate on the subject to front the campaign. It will take up a lot of time. If nothing is done soon and we as a country head into a general election(which could happen in the short to medium term) then nothing will be done and you may live with the consequences.

newleaf · 17-09-2010 9:26pm

Black Briar, notice you say you're getting DTT from Kippure. Should I be able to get it in Northside Arklow? Doesn't come up on any search at the moment. Just on VHF aerial, but that was fine when DTT was good up to May.
Also do you think I'd get UK free to air on aerial? Here was never great for UK analogue.

bmaxi · 17-09-2010 10:16pm

Deleted User wrote: »

.

I think thats his point...comreg do nothing..untill we the affected get the politicians on to .

Far too sophisticated for this simple chap.

I'll certainly spread the word around here.
I'll e-mail D'Arcy and see what he has to say. I presume the installers like Myles Redmond and Ian Deacon would be up to speed on this.

18-09-2010 9:49am

Yes they are well aware of it.
You'd be better off following up the email with a phone call aswell to the constituency office.

@ newleaf you should be able to get kippure on Arklows Northside if you are near the coast but only with an outdoor group B aerial or wideband with a masthead amp.
In your case you'd be better off waiting untill the end of october to see if you can get a stable signal from the new knockenrahan transmitter.
It might be weak over there but if it's stable it's all that you need.

Yes ,you should get arfon uk freeview light with a good group B and powered mastheah amp if you have a seaview to the East

18-09-2010 9:55am

charlie1966 wrote: »

Has anyone tried the media (and not just the net).
I know not much point ringing Joe Duffy:eek: or any RTE related media but wouldn't TV3 execs not be worried if, when they have to pay to be on the service that they will want to be able to be received by the entire population(maybe they don't really give a sh-t though).
There is always Newstalk, Today FM or any of the print media that wants to get another dig in at the incompetence of the current government.
Discussing it here is only getting to a very small number of people. To affect change there needs to be someone articulate on the subject to front the campaign. It will take up a lot of time. If nothing is done soon and we as a country head into a general election(which could happen in the short to medium term) then nothing will be done and you may live with the consequences.

Newstalk or Today fm if you are willing to try them.

The trouble I find is that you have to start from scratch and explain as they know little about this technology and shur George Hook will tell you to get sky

I'm sure Matt Cooper would do a piece maybe.
Getting onto Joe Duffy would be a wast of time I think.

20-09-2010 10:01am

I was looking at the new Arklow tx yesterday right beside the railway.
You can see it at the knockenrahan roundabout actually as you look towards the national school.

It's not the best location but it's not the worst.It will cover a lot of the town.
My aerial can see it at about one mile west but typically how much coverage can you possibly get from a 500 watt tx ?
Greystones reaches down to wicklow on higher power and kilkeel co down to Dublin on an analogue equivalent of that power so it remains to be seen.
Does anyone know if it's omnidirectional?
The woodlands area off the coolgreaney road is in a dip relative to where it is,so 100's of houses there may not be able to use it at all and they might have no other option.
The Eircom mast at the cemetery road would have been a better choice or better still the ballymoyle mast site on the hill north of the town.
That would have given great rural south wicklow coverage and north wexford.

lucernarian · 20-09-2010 2:29pm

You can make a good guess at directivity by looking at the mast and seeing what direction the actual transmitting panels are pointing. With 500 watts, anywhere which can see it within a mile of the transmitter (assuming it's omnidirectional or in the main direction of signal) should pick it up with a bit of wire sticking out the back of the socket!

20-09-2010 3:21pm

I wasn't up close but it's a trademark white circular cone surrounding the top of the mast.It looks the same all around.

lucernarian · 20-09-2010 3:45pm

That's interesting, a cone you say? Most of the medium and high power relays have a cylinder covering on top, like Kilkeel: http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/kilkeel-jl-05.jpg

Or else they can have sets of panels like the old DTT/reserve antenna on Blaenplywf. http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/blaenplwyf-ms-02.jpg

Would you be able to manage a photo of the new arklow mast?:cool:

20-09-2010 5:16pm

Cone-did I say cone?
My bad use of words.
It's the same as that kilkeel pic you linked ie a cylinder,just the one cylinder on top identical to that.

I'm wondering does a cylinder like that mean omnidirectional? I wasn't close enough to see if it had panels but there didn't look to be any below the cylinder.
Or are as I'm guessing ,the panels located inside the cylinder so you cannot see which side they face.

Where is mrdtv when you need him..

Verso · 20-09-2010 7:42pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Tara hill will definitely kill kippure in courtown which is also an area of strong presely reception so yes your area will be one of the worst affected and will need saorsat for reliable digital reception after 2012 when analogue goes off.

I am on the coast at Cahore and have been receiving Channel 54 at about 55%/65% quality on my Group B 'Preseli' aerial. This is of course poor in comparison to my Welsh reception which is normally at 90%/93% quality. Nevertheless RTE DTT can usually be viewed OK. If Courtown is blocked by Tara Hill should I be not blocked too, or am I just benefiting from 'Lift' conditions?.

Anyway if only RTE would broadcast on 39 all our reception problems wouls be solved.p

lucernarian · 20-09-2010 8:50pm

The cylinder's just a cover for panels or some sort of slot antenna or perhaps a dipole array I think. If there's a cylinder on top then it's probably impossible to work out directivity without giving RTE networks a shout. Anyway it's only a matter of weeks before it's fired up:)

20-09-2010 8:53pm

Courtown would be in the lee of tara hill explaining why bmaxi doesn't get ch54[though he might with an outdoor aerial maybe],you are further south so you are getting a signal over the horizon thats coming over the top of that hill [as the top of kippures mast must be 2700ft or so and tara hill is circa 900ft]
North of Courtown as you head up the coast towards Gorey,you are rising so theres a possibility of receiving from the site at the graveyard in Gorey but I've heard nothing about that tx.
North of this still further and you're probably in trouble as you've no kippure and a direct hill [arklow rock] blocking the arklow transmitter.
That far out anyway,you'd need an outdoor aerial and a masthead amp.

Thats impressive in cahore that far down the coast -the signal would most likely be coming in the side of your presely aerial by the way.

lawhec · 22-09-2010 4:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm wondering does a cylinder like that mean omnidirectional? I wasn't close enough to see if it had panels but there didn't look to be any below the cylinder.
Or are as I'm guessing ,the panels located inside the cylinder so you cannot see which side they face.

It's impossible to work out the directivity (if any) from an aerial enclosed with a cylinder. It could be omnidirectional, or could be restricted.

A couple of years ago I got some info from Ofcom about NI UHF transmitters. Interestingly, the three main transmitters are cleared for omnidirectional use but all relays have some directional "restriction" or directivity of maximum ERP. In Kilkeel's case, the transmission aerials are aimed roughly south-east towards Kilkeel Town, probably because there's not much point firing half a kilowatt north into the Mournes. Strabane and L/Derry also have similar directional restrictions despite having a cylinder GRP shroud for their transmitting aerials.

bmaxi · 22-09-2010 11:31pm

Black Briar, I've just had a protracted debate with Scaller on the Wexford forum , on the situation with regard to DTT from Mt. Leinster. It seems not everybody is singing from the same hymnsheet.

Mike 1972 · 28-09-2010 7:34pm

I thought all high power broadcast frequency allocations are supposed to be internationally coordinated. That being the case surely RTE/COMREG are not solely to blame for this almighty ****up but that the EBU/ITU/whoever have a lot to answer for as well ? Surely any idiot could have foreseen that putting co-channel high powered transmitters in SE Ireland and West Wales would have caused problems in both countries ???

bmaxi wrote: »

Let me get this straight before I contact anybody. You say that I can't watch Irish tv channels in Ireland, where I pay my TV licence, because it interferes with someone watching British tv in Britain? So what, I say, I would have thought that was a problem for the British?

bmaxi wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed reply although it still doesn't explain why we should care about TV reception in Wales.

You know something -Im really glad I dont live next door to you.

STB · 29-09-2010 12:41am

I see we now have not one, but two stickies on the overspill reception of British television.

From what I can see there seems to be some acceptance out there that Ireland and RTE NL are doing something wrong in broadcasting on a frequency allocated to this country.

There also seems to be some form of expectation that overspill from broadcasts that shouldnt be received in this country should receive favour for those living in the South East Coast over the receiving of our national broadcaster.

I may not be flavour of the month when I suggest this, but is there any chance that those that want Free to Air Irish television could just turn their aerials away from Wales and towards an Irish transmitter. I know the lack of UK TV may be a distraction temporarily, but one could then use a satellite dish for such reception like the rest of this country and stop whinging.

lucernarian · 29-09-2010 8:24am

The frequencies shouldn't have been allocated in the way they were in the first place. And Irish DTT would be a far greater success if we took advantage of the overspill freeview reception rather than tell people that they have to go to Uncle Rupert's company to continue watching the channels involved. Also, the MoU can only be described as a sham if such coordination for two main transmitters can't be arranged.

29-09-2010 9:16am

STB wrote: »

I see we now have not one, but two stickies on the overspill reception of British television.

From what I can see there seems to be some acceptance out there that Ireland and RTE NL are doing something wrong in broadcasting on a frequency allocated to this country.

Not Ireland...Comreg on the advices of RTE,theres a big difference :rolleyes:

There also seems to be some form of expectation that overspill from broadcasts that shouldnt be received in this country should receive favour for those living in the South East Coast over the receiving of our national broadcaster.

That is a bullcrap interpretation of the situation and well you know it.
As pointed out,there are plenty of frequencies available in the southeast without being awkward to what is a worldwide phenomenon...overspill and peoples enjoyment of it.

I may not be flavour of the month when I suggest this, but is there any chance that those that want Free to Air Irish television could just turn their aerials away from Wales and towards an Irish transmitter. I know the lack of UK TV may be a distraction temporarily, but one could then use a satellite dish for such reception like the rest of this country and stop whinging.

Why are you constantly whinging about something that doesn't affect you and about a campaign that actually makes RTE more easily receivable digitally terrestrially in the south east not harder.
Thats the more pertinent questiion

watty · 29-09-2010 9:38am

Mt Leinster has caused interference to Welsh viewers pointing aerials at Welsh transmitters. Presili will cause interference to some Irish viewers even if they point their aerial at Leinster.

So while as STB says, most people's problem would be solved with Freesat + dish and re-aligned aerial, I do beleive there is still a problem. There has been a mistake made IMO.

Unfortunately fixing it properly would have a knock-on effect in the entire country. After ASO there are 2 to 4 new channel slots available, so it might not be fixed till then. (Digital TV/Setbox easier to "retune" than Analogue, so as long as aerials are correct group, re-jigging ALL channels after ASO isn't a big deal.)

FRIENDO · 29-09-2010 10:04am

I have only the one aerial working of Monasootagh Relay recieving RTE1, NET2 and a poor quality TnaG reception. I use satellite for the UK channels.
In the past I could pick up Irish DTT on channel 39, however Mount Lenister stopped broadcasting on the above channel and I could not recieve anything on 45. I have re-aligned my aerial back to Monasootagh.

I do not use any other aerial for the UK.

STB · 29-09-2010 5:10pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

The frequencies shouldn't have been allocated in the way they were in the first place. And Irish DTT would be a far greater success if we took advantage of the overspill freeview reception rather than tell people that they have to go to Uncle Rupert's company to continue watching the channels involved. Also, the MoU can only be described as a sham if such coordination for two main transmitters can't be arranged.

Uncle Rupert does not run Freesat which is free to air and mirrors "the channels involved"

Deleted User wrote: »

Not Ireland...Comreg on the advices of RTE,theres a big difference

That is a bullcrap interpretation of the situation and well you know it.

As pointed out,there are plenty of frequencies available in the southeast without being awkward to what is a worldwide phenomenon...overspill and peoples enjoyment of it.

Why are you constantly whinging about something that doesn't affect you and about a campaign that actually makes RTE more easily receivable digitally terrestrially in the south east not harder.

Thats the more pertinent questiion

Black Briar we will have to agree to disagree. The local installers seem to be of the differing opinion too!

People with High gain aerials pointing the wrong way towards Wales and giving out about not being able to receive DTT are at cross purposes with themselves. You cant be doing both. Make a choice* or use seperate aerials and boxes.

Its an inconvenience, we get the point. Anyone who has read the two specific stickies on this topic on this forum and the campaign thread in the Wexford forum will have got the point.

Are the local TDs being told that Freesat mirrors Freeview - and that Freeview is a UK directed service that is subject to weather/atmospheric conditions and that the reason for RTE being affected is the positioning of people aerials ? Pre Freesat I might have agreed with you.

I am not the one doing the whinging.........Thanks for the level headed reply by the way, can you keep it impersonal (your presumptions on whether it effects me may not be true!

).

RTÉ DTT Reception difficulties in parts of the south east.

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