Goth Discussion

DenMan · 30-08-2008 9:21pm #1

Hi everyone. I have decided to put this thread together for all of the Gothic people here on boards. I ran a search and there does not seem to be an awful lot dedicated to the Gothic world here. I should start off and say that I am not a Gothic person myself, first and foremost, although I am immensely drawn to and fascinated by the Gothic world. I became very close to a lot of Goths (in the UK) and as result developed a huge appreciation for them as a whole. I went to a lot of gigs, collaborated in writing work and made a lot of good friends. I never looked down on them as I treated them as equals. It is one thing I miss greatly since returning to Ireland and as a result would like to set this thread up to hear how Goths based in Ireland (and abroad) feel about themselves and how others have reacted to them, be it family members, friends and strangers they already know and other people they continuously meet in everyday life. I know that if you go onto the continent there are much more Gothic people in sight. Ireland is by no means lacking in Goth numbers and I believe it is well represented.

Anything can be discussed here from what it means to you to be a Goth, your dress sense, political opinions, tastes in music, literature – anything and everything. This is of course not the case. Right now I have just started reading The Castle of Otranto by Horace Walpole (1764) as I have been trying to get a hold of it for quite some time. It is a timeless classic and great for motivation. Since Gothic can be seen my many people as falling into the category of Nocturnal I have decided to put this here.

Thanking you all in advance.

Doctor DooM · 30-08-2008 9:42pm

just to point out a) I approve of this thread and b) will be keeping a close eye on it moderating wise. Anything approaching bashing any social group will be dealt with.
Might seem heavy handed but I'm heading it off at the pass.

Now go!

triv88 · 30-08-2008 10:30pm

Gothic people imo ,are usually more creative,introspective,thought provoking,moodier then the average person.They are more into the "classic" "romantic" nature of things (whether it be literature,music,beliefs etc) than the "popular" culture .They are less concerned of what others think of them(hence their freedom to dress differently etc) and are less likely to conform to the "herd mentality" which is a great thing .I love Goths!

Doctor DooM · 31-08-2008 2:07am

Ok, I am half cut so bear with me.

For me, what being Goth should mean is being open minded and accepting.

To explain this, most people who end up going down the goth route do so because some avenue they walk down during life (be it music, films, fashion, books, etc) they find the established norm does not stimulate them and they need to look outside the boundaries of what is acceptable. They go on a search to discover what really stimulates them, rather than accept what is spoon fed.

This usually happens in one little part of a given persons culture but slowly expands accross the whole basis of a persons world.

So a person usually tries to think for themself and act for themself without unwelcome outside influence and sometimes stumbles accross goth.

Therefore it carries that a goth is someone who does not judge based on societies conventions but digs deeper.

Of course there is an argument these days that Goth is just as confirmist, but Im not going to deal with that right now.

I like Voltaires description of Goth, which states that goth is a culture which rejects the standard definition of what is normal and beautiful so all can beaccepted for what they are.

Of course, seeing as there is no global Goth organisation, there is no true description of what is goth, just opinion.

Lockstep · 31-08-2008 2:12am

triv88 wrote: »

and are less likely to conform to the "herd mentality" which is a great thing

Ah yeah, sure it's a great thing for them to state how different they are by adhering to a subculture.

Doctor DooM · 31-08-2008 2:14am

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Ah yeah, sure it's a great thing for them to state how different they are by adhering to a subculture.

Some say never be so non conformist as to conform to non conformity.

But why cut your nose off to spite your face if you like the non conformist viewpoint?

*Falls over drunk*

Darragh29 · 31-08-2008 2:14am

SDooM wrote: »

just to point out a) I approve of this thread and b) will be keeping a close eye on it moderating wise. Anything approaching bashing any social group will be dealt with.
Might seem heavy handed but I'm heading it off at the pass.

Now go!

"We'll head them off at the pass... I hate that cliche"

Hedley Lamaar. date unknown...

Lockstep · 31-08-2008 2:16am

SDooM wrote: »

Some say never be so non conformist as to conform to non conformity.

But why cut your nose off to spite your face if you like the non conformist viewpoint?

*Falls over drunk*

You can be non conformist in the sense of not joining a subculture without conforming to being a stereotypical non-conformist.

Adam · 31-08-2008 2:20am

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Ah yeah, sure it's a great thing for them to state how different they are by adhering to a subculture.

there's 6 and a half billion people in the world. you could wear nothing but a nappy tomorrow and i guarantee you won't be the only grown male that does so. why not form an opinion on the subject rather than throwing that old argument out?

incidentally, i would consider myself more of a goth than anything else in terms of Doom's post, and you wouldn't think it for a second looking at me.

someone who is goth may wear black. someone who wears black may not be goth. these statements are all too quickly ignored.

Doctor DooM · 31-08-2008 2:21am

kickoutthejams wrote: »

You can be non conformist in the sense of not joining a subculture without conforming to being a stereotypical non-conformist.

Mirror wrote: »

there's 6 and a half billion people in the world. you could wear nothing but a nappy tomorrow and i guarantee you won't be the only grown male that does so. why not form an opinion on the subject rather than throwing that old argument out?

incidentally, i would consider myself more of a goth than anything else in terms of Doom's post, and you wouldn't think it for a second looking at me.

someone who is goth may wear black. someone who wears black may not be goth. these statements are all too quickly ignored.

Answered more eloquently than I could in my current state, mordeth

Lockstep · 31-08-2008 12:43pm

Mirror wrote: »

there's 6 and a half billion people in the world. you could wear nothing but a nappy tomorrow and i guarantee you won't be the only grown male that does so.

Then wear what you feel comfortable in. Do it for it's own sake. Not doing it out of an attempt to be different.

Mirror wrote: »

why not form an opinion on the subject rather than throwing that old argument out?

I have an opinion on it. Which I already outlined.
Nothing to do with throwing old arguments out.

Mirror wrote: »

incidentally, i would consider myself more of a goth than anything else in terms of Doom's post, and you wouldn't think it for a second looking at me.

That's very nice for you.

Mirror wrote: »

someone who is goth may wear black. someone who wears black may not be goth. these statements are all too quickly ignored.

Seems like I'm not the only one throwing old arguments out here.
I don't give a toss if someone wears black or not.
I've no problem with most goths, but the ones who try so hard to be anti-conformist that they end up conforming to a clique are being silly. This does not mean that I label anyone wearing black as being a goth.

Doctor DooM · 31-08-2008 1:07pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Then wear what you feel comfortable in. Do it for it's own sake. Not doing it out of an attempt to be different.

I have an opinion on it. Which I already outlined.
Nothing to do with throwing old arguments out.

That's very nice for you.

Seems like I'm not the only one throwing old arguments out here.
I don't give a toss if someone wears black or not.
I've no problem with most goths, but the ones who try so hard to be anti-conformist that they end up conforming to a clique are being silly. This does not mean that I label anyone wearing black as being a goth.

But you ARE labelling people who are non conformist for the sake of it as being goths which is unfair to goths- unless I'm picking you up wrong.

Lockstep · 31-08-2008 1:14pm

SDooM wrote: »

But you ARE labelling people who are non conformist for the sake of it as being goths which is unfair to goths- unless I'm picking you up wrong.

I said no such thing.

What I disagreed with was the idea that goths are less conformist than the rest of us, given that some goths are conforming to a subculture while touting how individual they are.

The same could be said for any subculture, it isn't limited to goths.

Adam · 31-08-2008 1:16pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Ah yeah, sure it's a great thing for them to state how different they are by adhering to a subculture.

them? if this statement wasn't intended to tar all goths with the one brush then you were doing it wrong

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Then wear what you feel comfortable in. Do it for it's own sake. Not doing it out of an attempt to be different.

in a materialistic world such as ours, it's becoming increasingly difficult for anybody to avoid being categorized by what they wear. but goths often wear black. i used to wear a lot of black. but who are you to decide whether these people are doing it to stand out. i happened to feel very comfortable in what i was wearing at the time, and i'm sure many others do today.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Seems like I'm not the only one throwing old arguments out here.
I don't give a toss if someone wears black or not.
I've no problem with most goths, but the ones who try so hard to be anti-conformist that they end up conforming to a clique are being silly. This does not mean that I label anyone wearing black as being a goth.

and what, to you, is trying too hard? this line that they're crossing, from non-conformist into cliche, have you decided where that is? you see i think you missed my point about the nappy. you could try and come up with the most extremely non conformist costume and the chances are you won't be the only one. so some people are happy just to throw on some jeans and a band related tshirt, and that's fine. but others go further, and imo that's fine too. but from what i gather, that's where you have a problem with all of it?

Doctor DooM · 31-08-2008 1:20pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I said no such thing.

What I disagreed with was the idea that goths are less conformist than the rest of us, given that some goths are conforming to a subculture while touting how individual they are.

The same could be said for any subculture, it isn't limited to goths.

Some goths don't go on about how individual they are. Others do, but tbh they're missing the
point. Goths in general are more about acceptance and exploration, in my not inconsiderable experience.

Nightwish · 31-08-2008 1:21pm

Goths who are claim individuality are lying. I knew when I started dressing in a certain way about 10 years ago, that I wasnt being in any way unique and that I conformed to a certain label. The reason I dressed the way I did, the music I listened to, the books I read etc was because they reflected exactly I am and still do to a certain extent although I'd like to think I have matured somewhat in 10 years!

I have been to many concerts with a large gothic audience in Europe in the past year or so and I must say they are the nicest bunch of people ever. I find the European scene quite different to the scene here or in the UK. I dont know if it sounds ridiculous but I feel very welcome and almost at home when amongst the gothic community in Europe, whereas here I find it very competitive. I dont know if its because in Ireland, I've come across the "Temple Bar" crowd once too often, whom I've found to be quite judgemental. I dunno, thats just my experience anyway.

Adam · 31-08-2008 1:26pm

Nightwish wrote: »

Goths who are claim individuality are lying. I knew when I started dressing in a certain way about 10 years ago, that I wasnt being in any way unique and that I conformed to a certain label. The reason I dressed the way I did, the music I listened to, the books I read etc was because they reflected exactly I am and still do to a certain extent although I'd like to think I have matured somewhat in 10 years!

I have been to many concerts with a large gothic audience in Europe in the past year or so and I must say they are the nicest bunch of people ever. I find the European scene quite different to the scene here or in the UK. I dont know if it sounds ridiculous but I feel very welcome and almost at home when amongst the gothic community in Europe, whereas here I find it very competitive. I dont know if its because in Ireland, I've come across the "Temple Bar" crowd once too often, whom I've found to be quite judgemental. I dunno, thats just my experience anyway.

qft

also, anybody that passes judgement based on what they witness within a 10 mile radius of temple bar / central bank has no argument worth hearing. and i know, i used to know most of them, unfortunately -_-

DenMan · 31-08-2008 1:29pm

Most people consider Goths to be outcasts, social misfits. What a narrow minded viewpoint. Ironically Gothic people are some of the most honest and open minded people I have ever met in my life. Issues and personal problems that most people tend to sweep under the carpet or try their best to ignore like loneliness, sadness, missing people are things that everybody has to deal with, but they don’t like to address them. Gothic people on the other hand really appreciate these feelings and they are shown in their tastes in music and literature.

Regarding lifestyle, dark doesn’t mean bad it is just another aspect of a person’s psyche that most people try and ignore, instead of understanding and appreciating it.

Lockstep · 31-08-2008 1:29pm

Mirror wrote: »

them? if this statement wasn't intended to tar all goths with the one brush then you were doing it wrong

Poor choice of words there on my part.

Mirror wrote: »

in a materialistic world such as ours, it's becoming increasingly difficult for anybody to avoid being categorized by what they wear. but goths often wear black. i used to wear a lot of black. but who are you to decide whether these people are doing it to stand out. i happened to feel very comfortable in what i was wearing at the time, and i'm sure many others do today.

I wear black all the time, doesn't mean I'd categorize myself as a goth.

Mirror wrote: »

and what, to you, is trying too hard? this line that they're crossing, from non-conformist into cliche, have you decided where that is?

There is no hard line for either. It's all individual. I used to go out with a girl who laughed at people she deemed mainstream for being conformists while simultaneously adhering to a strict code she felt goths had to live such as being a wicca and writing poetry. That would be trying too hard for me as she wasn't being herself.

Mirror wrote: »

you see i think you missed my point about the nappy. you could try and come up with the most extremely non conformist costume and the chances are you won't be the only one.

THe point is not doing something to be non conformist but to do as you actually like it.

Mirror wrote: »

so some people are happy just to throw on some jeans and a band related tshirt, and that's fine. but others go further, and imo that's fine too. but from what i gather, that's where you have a problem with all of it?

No, I have no problem with goths/punks/emos or pretty much any of the subcultures I can think of.
I just think it's silly when they start feeling the need to conform and live by a rulebook.

SDooM wrote: »

Sweeping generalisation alert.
Some goths don't go on about how individual they are. Others do, but tbh they're missing the point.

What's a sweeping generalisation?
That I said some goths conform to a subculture and go about their individuality?
Or that any subculture would have similar people?

Adam · 31-08-2008 1:43pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I wear black all the time, doesn't mean I'd categorize myself as a goth.

you completely skipped my point there. i could have said yellow or purple, my point was how do you know these people don't feel more comfortable in what they wear?

kickoutthejams wrote: »

There is no hard line for either. It's all individual. I used to go out with a girl who laughed at people she deemed mainstream for being conformists while simultaneously adhering to a strict code she felt goths had to live such as being a wicca and writing poetry. That would be trying too hard for me as she wasn't being herself.

how do you know she wasn't being herself? and who says wicca and poetry have to have anything to do with goth? can normal people practice these pastimes, or would that make them goth? i think a large issue here is that you're actually creating the stereotypes in your head, and subsequently judging people based on them.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

THe point is not doing something to be non conformist but to do as you actually like it.

yes, but you're assuming that when a goth wakes up every morning they think to themselves 'how can i be non-conformist today?' as opposed to most people who just think 'what do i want to wear today?'.

kickoutthejams wrote: »

No, I have no problem with goths/punks/emos or pretty much any of the subcultures I can think of.
I just think it's silly when they start feeling the need to conform and live by a rulebook.

we all conform and live by a rulebook every day of our lives. we get up, we get dressed, we eat, work, shit, play, drink, fuck, sleep and die. and we do it for the most part as we're expected to in our respective society. so if i wake up and think slightly differently about something, or wear something different to most people, i'll generally be doing it for my own reasons, and because it allows me to enjoy my life that bit more.

you keep using the expression 'sub-culture' and then missing the significance completely. that's exactly what it is, a culture. and in any culture, do we not find levels of conformity? if everyone tried to be completely different from everyone else, this world wouldn't be a very nice place to live. but if you don't try to be different from everybody else, you're going to end up looking and dressing like somebody else. in fact, a lot of somebody elses i'll wager.

Lockstep · 31-08-2008 2:00pm

Mirror wrote: »

you completely skipped my point there. i could have said yellow or purple, my point was how do you know these people don't feel more comfortable in what they wear?

You seem to have missed my entire point in this thread.

I don't care if someone is a goth or not. They can be a punk,pikey, emo or Christian Youth. Whatever someone feels comfortable in is fine. I don't however, understand the members of a subculture who feel they need to strictly adhere to a subculture and who simultaneusly look down on other people as conformists.

Mirror wrote: »

how do you know she wasn't being herself?

Yes, I was waiting for that chestnut to pop up. I'll address that in a minute.

Mirror wrote: »

and who says wicca and poetry have to have anything to do with goth? can normal people practice these pastimes, or would that make them goth?

As I knew her well enough, she wasn't interested in them at all but she felt she needed to be as it was part of being a goth. When you're with someone you do tend to get to know them quite well. It was fake.

I never once suggested that poetry and wicca have anything to do with being a goth. She felt they were.

Mirror wrote: »

i think a large issue here is that you're actually creating the stereotypes in your head, and subsequently judging people based on them.

I think a large issue here is that you seem to think my amusement with a few members of a subculture mean that I stereotype them all like that.

Mirror wrote: »

yes, but you're assuming that when a goth wakes up every morning they think to themselves 'how can i be non-conformist today?' as opposed to most people who just think 'what do i want to wear today?'.

You know what I'm assuming? Man, I need to start wearing tinfoil hat.
For God's sake my friend, I don't think all goths are the same. I'm saying that in a subculture, there are those who feel the need to conform.

If me using goths as an example makes you so edgy I can use punks in the analogy if you wish.

Mirror wrote: »

we all conform and live by a rulebook every day of our lives. we get up, we get dressed, we eat, work, shi, play, drink, fuck, sleep and die. and we do it for the most part as we're expected to in our respective society.
so if i wake up and think slightly differently about something, or wear something different to most people, i'll generally be doing it for my own reasons, and because it allows me to enjoy my life that bit more.

I can't say your personal life bothers me that much. Do what you like to do. Go nuts. Have fun.

I still fail to see what it has to do with the members of subcultures who feel the need to conform to what they deem to be nonconformist.

Mirror wrote: »

you keep using the expression 'sub-culture' and then missing the significance completely. that's exactly what it is, a culture. and in any culture, do we not find levels of conformity?
if everyone tried to be completely different from everyone else, this world wouldn't be a very nice place to live. but if you don't try to be different from everybody else, you're going to end up looking and dressing like somebody else. in fact, a lot of somebody elses i'll wager.

Allrighty, why the lecture on being different?
I don't see what this has to do with people who feel the need to act like the South Park Goth Kids who spend all day going on about all the conformists.

Adam · 31-08-2008 2:10pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

You seem to have missed my entire point in this thread.

I don't care if someone is a goth or not. They can be a punk,pikey, emo or Christian Youth. Whatever someone feels comfortable in is fine. I don't however, understand the members of a subculture who feel they need to strictly adhere to a subculture and who simultaneusly look down on other people as conformists.

right. so you dislike this girl you went out with. are there many others that you know of that "look down on other people as conformists"?

Lockstep · 31-08-2008 2:14pm

Mirror wrote: »

right. so you dislike this girl you went out with. are there many others that you know of that "look down on other people as conformists"?

I didn't dislike her at all. I was with her as I actually liked her.
I didn't understand why she felt such a need to adhere to a style which she was never really cofortable with.

I've known few people who are obsessive about being different as they feel the need to adhere to a stereotype, usally people with low self esteem. these have been the minority.
Most of the goths/punks/alternatives etc I've met have been fine.

Adam · 31-08-2008 2:20pm

great. so we've gone from

kickoutthejams wrote:

Ah yeah, sure it's a great thing for them to state how different they are by adhering to a subculture.

to

kickoutthejams wrote: »

Most of the goths/punks/alternatives etc I've met have been fine.

so to summarise, you don't like people who try to hard to be what they're not? well neither do i, or most others i'll bet.

Lockstep · 31-08-2008 2:23pm

Mirror wrote: »

great. so we've gone from
to
so to summarise, you don't like people who try to hard to be what they're not? well neither do i, or most others i'll bet.

Yes, as I've already said, my first post was a poor choice of words.
I meant those attempting to be different. Not those who are comfortable doing whatever it is they do.

anonymous_joe · 31-08-2008 2:30pm

Hmmm.

I'vealways hated the old 'meh, they're all trying to be different and look the same.'

Everyone dresses like the social group they aspire to. (If only I could find out what that is. :P) As for looking down on people, given the opinions I've heard people express about Goths I wouldn't mind them disliking the mainstream.

Most I've ever known have been pretty bang on. Yeah you get the odd too cool for school types, but then, those aren;'t representative of Goths, they're just representative of wánkers.

Phototoxin · 31-08-2008 2:46pm

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Everyone dresses like the social group they aspire to. (If only I could find out what that is. :P) As for looking down on people, given the opinions I've heard people express about Goths I wouldn't mind them disliking the mainstream.

I disagree, curently I am wearing a bright blue hoodie over a black tshirt and some crispy rattly dark sports bottoms (not the tracksuit kind)

what does that make me in terms of subculture or social group ? I dont have any social group/ sub-culture classification what so ever. I am me. I wear what is comfortable.

Gothic people imo ,are usually more creative,introspective,thought provoking,moodier then the average person.They are more into the "classic" "romantic" nature of things (whether it be literature,music,beliefs etc) than the "popular" culture .They are less concerned of what others think of them(hence their freedom to dress differently etc) and are less likely to conform to the "herd mentality" which is a great thing .I love Goths!

I think that's quite a sweeping statement. I know some goths that are 'normal' just quiet and nice, some who are judgemental f*ckers, some who are arty, some science-y. It is impossible to steriotype a goth that easily. Does everyone who wears a suit become a lawyer or a businessperson ? I think not.

SmileyPaul · 31-08-2008 3:14pm

I like that statement it makes sense, a lot of sense
good work

Doctor DooM · 31-08-2008 9:11pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

What's a sweeping generalisation?
That I said some goths conform to a subculture and go about their individuality?
Or that any subculture would have similar people?

ACtually dude, I owe you an apology, I misread you and edited the post. Obviously you read with ninja speed.

Lockstep · 31-08-2008 9:33pm

And I too owe an apology.

Initial wording made it sound as if I thought all goths were attempting to not conform.
Not my intention at all.

SmileyPaul · 31-08-2008 10:09pm

off topic:
yay smiley happy people

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