Can PokerEvents please reply to this?

ditpoker · 31-12-2006 8:10pm #1

Once again PokerEvents have upset the many dealers that they employ. They are running a 300+30 game on New Years Day.

Dealers originally did not want to work for 10 an hour on New Years Day, when contacted about this Fintan was very aggressive and "did not appreciate" being called on the matter.
As it became apparent that they would struggle to get sufficient number of dealers, PokerEvents said “We will offer you 12 euro an hour, and if you don’t work it you won’t work the IPC”. This is effectively blackmail as they know that the IPC is worth a few hundred euro to student dealers. This ‘threat’ is not acceptable.
PokerEvents point out that dealers will also receive tips from this event, however, given that there are no cash prizes, just tickets, there will be limited, if any, tips.

Could PokerEvents, or someone associated with PokerEvents, please answer the following:

Why did you threaten dealers that they would not be able to work the IPC?
Why does PokerEvents remain the only poker employer who do not offer a call out fee for dealers?
Why do PokerEvents continue to refuse to offer dealers contracts prior to events?

I would appreciate a reply on this matter in a public forum, and not in PM. I think it is important that players (customers) and dealers (staff) get to see both sides of this.

Regards,

Jeff.

5starpool · 31-12-2006 8:32pm

If this thread is to exist for long then it needs to be kept civil and respect the charter.

kpnuts · 31-12-2006 10:19pm

Hope you settle your differences in time for tomorrow's game, Jeff. I'd say you're drawing dead on hoping for a reply here though. Probably a slightly better chance of having your questions acknowledged if not answered by Fintan or Stephen on the little-used forum on PokerEvents' own website.

PokerEvents-Ste · 31-12-2006 11:31pm

ditpoker wrote:

Once again PokerEvents have upset the many dealers that they employ. They are running a 300+30 game on New Years Day.
Dealers originally did not want to work for 10 an hour on New Years Day, when contacted about this Fintan was very aggressive and "did not appreciate" being called on the matter.

As it became apparent that they would struggle to get sufficient number of dealers, PokerEvents said “We will offer you 12 euro an hour, and if you don’t work it you won’t work the IPC”. This is effectively blackmail as they know that the IPC is worth a few hundred euro to student dealers. This ‘threat’ is not acceptable.

PokerEvents point out that dealers will also receive tips from this event, however, given that there are no cash prizes, just tickets, there will be limited, if any, tips.

Could PokerEvents, or someone associated with PokerEvents, please answer the following:
Why did you threaten dealers that they would not be able to work the IPC?

Why does PokerEvents remain the only poker employer who do not offer a call out fee for dealers?

Why do PokerEvents continue to refuse to offer dealers contracts prior to events?

I would appreciate a reply on this matter in a public forum, and not in PM. I think it is important that players (customers) and dealers (staff) get to see both sides of this.

Regards,

Jeff.

Jeff

Jeff you do NOT work for PokerEvents!

You are incorrect in many of your statements. And I'm sure you did not hear any of the conversations which you are talking about.

PokerEvents are not prepared to discuss an internal matter with anybody who does not work for us. Its very wrong for you to come to a public forum and make such comments.

What is your reasoning and sources of information behind your post?

Regards

Stephen

PokerEvents-Ste · 31-12-2006 11:33pm

kpnuts wrote:

Hope you settle your differences in time for tomorrow's game, Jeff. I'd say you're drawing dead on hoping for a reply here though. Probably a slightly better chance of having your questions acknowledged if not answered by Fintan or Stephen on the little-used forum on PokerEvents' own website.

KP

The New Years Open will go ahead tomorrow! Satellites from 15.00. Reg from 17.00. Cards 18.00

Regards,

Stephen

ditpoker · 01-01-2007 5:00am

PokerEvents-Ste wrote:

Jeff

Jeff you do NOT work for PokerEvents!

You are incorrect in many of your statements. And I'm sure you did not hear any of the conversations which you are talking about.

PokerEvents are not prepared to discuss an internal matter with anybody who does not work for us. Its very wrong for you to come to a public forum and make such comments.

What is your reasoning and sources of information behind your post?

Regards

Stephen

Stephen, I appreciate your reply.

I do NOT work for PokerEvents, but I was asked to, by you. I requested a contract prior to working for PokerEvents, you agreed to send this to me, to date I have received no further correspondence from you.

I admit I did not hear these conversations, however, you do not deny that they took place. Can you confirm that the ultimatum i discussed was never mentioned?

This is not an internal matter per se, I have worked for you, I was asked to work for you, and I continue to receive text messages from you and I a potential customer of yours. As such I do have an interest. Equally, this issue directly effects my friends and colleagues who deal for numerous companies. As such it is very much correct of me to come to a public forum to seek clarification on the issue. I find it interesting that managed to avoid three very direct questions. Once again, I invite you or anyone from PokerEvents to answer these three questions:

Why did you threaten dealers that they would not be able to work the IPC?
Why does PokerEvents remain the only poker employer who do not offer a call out fee for dealers?
Why do PokerEvents continue to refuse to offer dealers contracts prior to events?

I hope the above clarifies my reasoning for posting this. If not please state your problems with the above reasoning and I will be happy to elaborate. I think this is a public matter as it directly affects people considering to work with you in the future and informs players who intend to play for you. Do you agree this is fair?

My sources of information with regard question 1 will not be revealed unless they wish to reveal themselves. With regard questions 2 and 3 I am speaking from my own experience. When I did work for PokerEvents I was never offered a call out fee, even after one was requested. The issue of a pre-event contract was something I first discussed with you.

I would appreciate a reply. I would seek discussion with Fintan on this, however, last time he was asked questions he refused to reply and vanished from the forum.

I look forward to your reply,

Jeff.

DITTag · 01-01-2007 5:40am

I'm also a dealer for pokerevents. I would also like question 1 to be answered please.

BigDragon · 01-01-2007 5:50am

PokerEvents-Ste · 01-01-2007 5:51am

ditpoker wrote:

Stephen, I appreciate your reply.

I do NOT work for PokerEvents, but I was asked to, by you. I requested a contract prior to working for PokerEvents, you agreed to send this to me, to date I have received no further correspondence from you.

I admit I did not hear these conversations, however, you do not deny that they took place. Can you confirm that the ultimatum i discussed was never mentioned?

This is not an internal matter per se, I have worked for you, I was asked to work for you, and I continue to receive text messages from you and I a potential customer of yours. As such I do have an interest. Equally, this issue directly effects my friends and colleagues who deal for numerous companies. As such it is very much correct of me to come to a public forum to seek clarification on the issue. I find it interesting that managed to avoid three very direct questions. Once again, I invite you or anyone from PokerEvents to answer these three questions:
Why did you threaten dealers that they would not be able to work the IPC?

Why does PokerEvents remain the only poker employer who do not offer a call out fee for dealers?

Why do PokerEvents continue to refuse to offer dealers contracts prior to events?

I hope the above clarifies my reasoning for posting this. If not please state your problems with the above reasoning and I will be happy to elaborate. I think this is a public matter as it directly affects people considering to work with you in the future and informs players who intend to play for you. Do you agree this is fair?

My sources of information with regard question 1 will not be revealed unless they wish to reveal themselves. With regard questions 2 and 3 I am speaking from my own experience. When I did work for PokerEvents I was never offered a call out fee, even after one was requested. The issue of a pre-event contract was something I first discussed with you.

I would appreciate a reply. I would seek discussion with Fintan on this, however, last time he was asked questions he refused to reply and vanished from the forum.

I look forward to your reply,

Jeff.

Hello Jeff,

Happy New Year!

PokerEvents are not willing to discuss internal issues on a public forum.

Yes I did contact you in regard to working the IPC as I was told you were a good dealer and I also contacted all the dealers on the list which was passed over to me. You refused which is perfectly ok!

Your 'friends and collegues' I assume work for PokerEvents and all of them know how things work within PokerEvents. If they are unhappy they should approach me to discuss their issues. Its not right for you to be interfering with their affairs.

The players know the high standard of tournament to expect from PokerEvents.

Regards

Stephen

mewso · 01-01-2007 6:05am

PokerEvents-Ste wrote:

PokerEvents are not willing to discuss internal issues on a public forum and with non employees.

Just curious Ste. Who qualifies as employees? Does this mean nobody qualifies to ask a question because you have only asked them to work for you but the actual act of working for you has not yet occurred?

PokerEvents-Ste · 01-01-2007 6:11am

musician wrote:

Just curious Ste. Who qualifies as employees? Does this mean nobody qualifies to ask a question because you have only asked them to work for you but the actual act of working for you has not yet occurred?

Fair enough musician,

I shouldn't have said that. It late and New Years Night!

Stephen

mewso · 01-01-2007 6:18am

I understand Ste. I don't want organisers unfairly questioned here unless they have been remiss in responding outside of this forum. I hope that Jeff has brought these issues to pokerevents directly before presenting them here (if not this thread will be removed) and while I am aware that many will identify with Homer above I think it's important to be careful about these things considering the good these events do for poker in Ireland.

bohsman · 01-01-2007 7:25am

By employees you mean you and they pay tax, you give payslips etc?

wyndham · 01-01-2007 8:41am

Why don't you form a poker dealers union? Can I be a teamster?

Call it the UPDI?

ntlbell · 01-01-2007 9:42am

bohsman wrote:

By employees you mean you and they pay tax, you give payslips etc?

lol>!

ditpoker · 01-01-2007 3:23pm

musician wrote:

I understand Ste. I don't want organisers unfairly questioned here unless they have been remiss in responding outside of this forum. I hope that Jeff has brought these issues to pokerevents directly before presenting them here (if not this thread will be removed) and while I am aware that many will identify with Homer above I think it's important to be careful about these things considering the good these events do for poker in Ireland.

Musician, my intention is not to unfairly question any organiser. I am asking questions 2 and 3 directly off my own bat. The ultimatum referred to in question 1 was mentioned to me by more than one dealer who are upset by PokerEvents actions. The issue of pay was brought up with PokerEvents and it was this ultimatum that they were faced with according to dealers who PokerEvents intend to employ, not me.

I do not want this thread to decend into a public slagging match. I think myself and Stephen have been civil so far and I intend for it to remain that way.

Once again,

Why did you threaten dealers that they would not be able to work the IPC?
Why does PokerEvents remain the only poker employer who do not offer a call out fee for dealers?
Why do PokerEvents continue to refuse to offer dealers contracts prior to events?

DITTag wrote:

I'm also a dealer for pokerevents. I would also like question 1 to be answered please.

its not just former employees (me) asking this question.

Musician, if possible could you leave this thread open for approx 24 hours to give Stephen another chance to reply. I'd be very surprised though if PokerEvents are willing to admit and apologise but it is the new year and all. Assuming my three questions go ignored once more then this thread no longer serves a purpose and should be closed if no answer is received in that time. Stephen, surely if PokerEvents have acted fairly and reasonably then there would be no problems discussing what you refer to as an internal matter on this forum?

Bandara · 01-01-2007 3:23pm

PokerEvents said “We will offer you 12 euro an hour, and if you don’t work it you won’t work the IPC”.

As an aside, this is an illegal wage. The minimum wage is 8.30 per hour and as it is a bank holiday the employer is obliged to pay a Premium for working public holidays, this premium is double pay, or in certain circumstances pay + 50% can be sanctioned.

Therefore dealers must receive either €16.60 or (in certain cases) a minimum or €12.45 per hour

Just though I'd mention it, too much of this stuff goes on these days.

:mad:

boba_fett3099 · 01-01-2007 3:43pm

DITTag wrote:

I'm also a dealer for pokerevents. I would also like question 1 to be answered please.

.

sendic · 01-01-2007 4:20pm

Jeff,

Best of luck getting a straight answer on this. As you know, last time there was a dealer/PE discussion Fintan disappeared and obv delegated all Boards activities to Ste. I hope Ste gets a bonus in his paycheck for extra dirty work.

Anyway, in that thread a few months ago, Fintan decided to stop replying in person and only communicate via PM. In the thread at the time, Roundtower suggested that Fintan make a donation to 1%pledge on behalf of the dealers who never got tipped. I agreed with RT and contacted Fintan via PM. He confirmed that he would make a donation. As only RT and I agreed to the 1%pledge idea, I suggested to Fintan that he post on the forum, or PM the dealers that came forward in that thread as not receiving tips, to suggest this donation, to make sure a dontaion would be acceptable to all.

To my knowledge Fintan has not contacted the other dealers yet or made a donation to 1%pledge. Ste, can you confirm?

kakak1 · 01-01-2007 4:27pm

Hammertime wrote:

PokerEvents said “We will offer you 12 euro an hour, and if you don’t work it you won’t work the IPC”.

As an aside, this is an illegal wage. The minimum wage is 8.30 per hour and as it is a bank holiday the employer is obliged to pay a Premium for working public holidays, this premium is double pay, or in certain circumstances pay + 50% can be sanctioned.

Therefore dealers must receive either €16.60 or (in certain cases) a minimum or €12.45 per hour

Just though I'd mention it, too much of this stuff goes on these days.

:mad:

Firstly I don't think this is the place for this discussion.

Secondly with regard to min rates quoted by you to my knowledge this applies to full time workers. Yes the minimum wage applies for all but not the double/50% because it is a bank holiday, I don't think this applies to part time workers.

Personally if I were a dealer and dissatisfied with Poker Events terms I simply would not work for them. However it is not reasonable for dealers to expect double pay because it is a bank holiday, will players be willing to pay double the registration fee because of the same reason.

Also dealers like all workers have to take the good with the bad i.e. work the bank holiday as normal but earn good money for the IPC weekend festival.

boba_fett3099 · 01-01-2007 4:48pm

kakak1 wrote:

Also dealers like all workers have to take the good with the bad i.e. work the bank holiday as normal but earn good money for the IPC weekend festival.

What you are saying here makes no sense. Yes we will earn good money at the IPC but by working for our normal wage and working like 14 hour days for 4 days straight. Its not like by working the bank holiday as normal we will get better pay for the IPC.

BigDragon · 01-01-2007 5:22pm

sendic wrote:

To my knowledge Fintan has not contacted the other dealers yet or made a donation to 1%pledge. Ste, can you confirm?

I have my own, personal, opinions on PE and will contrbute when I see fit.

However, from a 1% Pledge point of view I am in an uncomfortable postion with this statement.

Without certain peoples permission (I tried to ring them) I will say that certain people have, in the not to distant past (6 - 12 months), contacted me with regard to making a donation to 1% via bank transfer. I have asked them to wait as we are having a couple of problems.

We have a bank acc. However, we cannot use that account (deposit, withdraw or accept donations) until such time as 'The Revenue' get their finger out and approve our application for a CTY number. (Fcuk red tape)

Certain persons have agreed to donate the minute we can accept bank transfers.
I am waiting for a response frm the latest dealings from 'The Revenue' to update all here on Boards.

Again, I am not comfortable with this post but feel it necessary to respond. PE, through Fintan, have agreed to support 1PP when we are up and running 'properly'.

Thanks

Dave

sendic · 01-01-2007 6:06pm

BigDragon wrote:

I have my own, personal, opinions on PE and will contrbute when I see fit.

However, from a 1% Pledge point of view I am in an uncomfortable postion with this statement.

Without certain peoples permission (I tried to ring them) I will say that certain people have, in the not to distant past (6 - 12 months), contacted me with regard to making a donation to 1% via bank transfer. I have asked them to wait as we are having a couple of problems.

We have a bank acc. However, we cannot use that account (deposit, withdraw or accept donations) until such time as 'The Revenue' get their finger out and approve our application for a CTY number. (Fcuk red tape)

Certain persons have agreed to donate the minute we can accept bank transfers.
I am waiting for a response frm the latest dealings from 'The Revenue' to update all here on Boards.

Again, I am not comfortable with this post but feel it necessary to respond. PE, through Fintan, have agreed to support 1PP when we are up and running 'properly'.

Thanks

Dave

Thats fair enough Dave, I have no doubts about 1%P. Sorry if sticking my oar in has put you in an uncomfortable position.

I wasn't looking for conformation from 1%P that any deposits had been made, rather I was seeking conformation from PE that we hadn't been forgotten about.

John.

edit: stupid typo

Bandara · 01-01-2007 6:07pm

Kakak

You are incorrect in your assumption concerning part-time workers, even if you only work one hour a week your are entitled to minimum wage and the related unsocial/special working hours benefits.

The wording from the NMWA:

"An experienced adult employee for the purposes of the National Minimum Wage Act is an employee who has an employment of any kind in any two years over the age of 18"

Also the argument concerning the tips etc on IPC weekend is invalid. Making good money on one weekend (when you will work bl**dy hard) is not a reason to be underpaid on another weekend. It is the decision of the organisation if they wish to run an event on a bank holiday, if they are not in a position to make sufficent money from the event to cover costs/wages etc then I would suggest they should not run the event.

(For what its worth I am an employer myself and pay my staff the correct wages, I come across on a weekly basis incidences of adults being paid anything from €5.35 an hour for a 40 hour week). Anyway this is a tangent to the issue regarding Poker Events, I'm just answering your post not suggesting PE are purposely taking advantage of staff.

shoutman · 01-01-2007 6:12pm

Surely min wage doesnt apply and poker dealers working for companys in Ireland have no rights because it's all cash in hand for the most part....

TBH I think the simpilist thing to do is just dont work for them if you aren't happy, there are plenty of other dealing jobs around.
Surely if all dealers feel like this then just dont work for Pokerevents and they will have to sort out the problem automaticallly.

They cant afford to be training in new dealers every game they play, not only would it be hassle for them but I'm sure their poker clientel would not be happy being dealt by novice dealers in every game they play.

Also Jeff I think this could of been better handled by just ringing up Stephen or Fintan and asking the questions directly.

carfax · 01-01-2007 6:32pm

shoutman wrote:

Surely min wage doesnt apply and poker dealers working for companys in Ireland have no rights because it's all cash in hand for the most part....

Still applies, doesn't matter about cash in hand, the law is the same for everyone.

shoutman wrote:

Also Jeff I think this could of been better handled by just ringing up Stephen or Fintan and asking the questions directly.

Jeff did say that he rang and was met with a very aggressive response.

kakak1 · 01-01-2007 6:38pm

boba_fett3099 wrote:

What you are saying here makes no sense. Yes we will earn good money at the IPC but by working for our normal wage and working like 14 hour days for 4 days straight. Its not like by working the bank holiday as normal we will get better pay for the IPC.

I think you are missing the point.

PE cannot charge extra reg fees because it is a bank holiday weekend, players would be unwilling to pay it.

Most tournaments are at weekends, does this mean double / 50% extra has to be paid. This is why there are part time workers, they work for an agreed sum WHEN THE WORK IS THERE, they are not permanent part time employees, they are casual part time workers and once they are paid the minimum wage per hour I really don't see any argument

kakak1 · 01-01-2007 6:42pm

You are incorrect in your assumption concerning part-time workers, even if you only work one hour a week your are entitled to minimum wage and the related unsocial/special working hours benefits.

The wording from the NMWA:

"An experienced adult employee for the purposes of the National Minimum Wage Act is an employee who has an employment of any kind in any two years over the age of 18"

As mentioned above I think you will find this applies to permanent part time workers not casual part time.

Also the argument concerning the tips etc on IPC weekend is invalid. Making good money on one weekend (when you will work bl**dy hard) is not a reason to be underpaid on another weekend. It is the decision of the organisation if they wish to run an event on a bank holiday, if they are not in a position to make sufficent money from the event to cover costs/wages etc then I would suggest they should not run the event.

I never mentioned tips, nor did I suggest they be underpaid either, they are entitled to the minimum wage. I do not think they are entitled to doubl / 50%+ for bank holiday work, they are casual workers & work when it is available.

ditpoker · 01-01-2007 6:44pm

carfax wrote:

Jeff did say that he rang and was met with a very aggressive response.

i did not ring personally. It was two of the other dealers. I posted on their behalf as they still work for PE and did not want any backlash.

I know the "if your not happy just dont work for them argument" , and that is what myself and aodea and our mate have done. We dont play PE events and dont work for them after last summer. unfortunately this does not force PE change their ways, this forces PE to hire sub-par staff who are willing to work.

From a players point of view it would be better to have myself or aodea dealing their table receiving proper pay, but from PE's point of view it makes business sense to have a new dealer working for min wage.

As for contacting them myself, regarding my questions 2 and 3 I text stephen about this and he has my email and said he would get back to me. That was about four weeks ago. I dont expect a reply.

dvdfan · 01-01-2007 6:50pm

carfax wrote:

Still applies, doesn't matter about cash in hand, the law is the same for everyone.

But its not legal to pay cash in hand, everything is supposed to be taxed and documented etc. Some people are happy to work for less than their paid in their full time job because they dont get taxed and it can often be better wages than working overtime in their full time job which could also push them into a higher tax bracket at the end of the year. I dont agree with not paying min wages im just pointing out that the law cant apply if its not done legally and this might suit the employee. This thing goes on regularly and as long as its suitable to the employee and employer and their both happy to take the risk then i dont see a big problem. Its when employers take advantage of people who cant find work and become desperate enough to take crap wages is when i do have a problem with it

mcaul · 01-01-2007 7:10pm

I won't get involved with the main argument but on the wages aspect if an employee is contracted on a 7 day roster (as per most retail workers etc etc) then no additional pay is due for bank holiday / sundays / nights etc etc. as it forms part of the standard working week. If an employee is contracted on a standard monday to friday 9-5 work week than additional pay / time off in lieu is due for Sundays/ Bank holidays, nights etc.

As for paying cash - it can be done if a receipt is provided by the "employee" and as such it is assumed it is a contract with a self-employed person. - they then must make tax returns on this. - Most student will never have to pay tax anyway as the first 17k of earnings is now tax free.

Can PokerEvents please reply to this?

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