Afghan hunger strike in St Patricks.

rkeane · 20-05-2006 1:25pm

I wonder could we invite the Russian special forces over - they could gas the Afghan's to submission...eh..they might kill them them...lets give that idea a miss. TBH, if these guys refuse to come out - their cases will be ruined. If they have an arrest on their chart when they appeal for leave 2 remain - it won't look good for them. I have a feeling this group are going to hear a counter demonstration 2day.

ferdi · 20-05-2006 1:29pm

i heard one of them interviewed over the phone from the cathedral on yesterday mornings Pat Kenny radio show. He is a politician in Afghanistan and had very good english.

Pat asked him very easy relevant questions, being very nice to him and not provoking him at all. The man gave absolutly no argument to support their case.

He could not give any proper reasons for their actions other then the usual vague 'politician' type replies.

When Pat asked how they had all ended up in ireland rather than claiming asylum in the first EU country they arrived in, the line went 'dead'.

when they got him back on the line and Pat asked the question of how they got to ireland again, your man said "We came from Afghanistan". Pat explained that in fact there are no direct flights to ireland from Afghanistan. At this the man started to get annoyed and repeating himself and Pat had to end the interview.

What little support i had for these guys got an awful lot smaller after i'd hear their representative for myself.

The_Minister · 20-05-2006 1:31pm

Most TDs aren't touching this but several Labour Tds have visited the hunger strikers in solidarity. They are: Michael D. Higgens, Brenden Howlin and Joe Costello, with Costello visiting many times. Note that they don't seem too vocal in their support.:D

tinkerbell · 20-05-2006 1:39pm

This whole thing is just stupid. If they want to stay there and starve, well let them. The media shouldn't be giving them any attention. By doing so, they are making it seem okay that these people can hold our country to ransom. Sure enough, if they get their way and are allowed stay, sure every person who gets refused will be doing the same stunt! It's just blackmail, and it's unbelievable how people are supporting this.

peterq · 20-05-2006 1:44pm

Everyone seems obsessed with the rights and wrongs of whether or not these folks should be allowed to remain in Ireland. I would question WHY they were allowed into the country at all! Even if they "sneaked" into the state they are known to have travelled through several EU states on the way ( one has admitted entering the UK via Dover ) and under current legislation SHOULDN'T have been PERMITTED to make claims for asylum here. Under the Dublin convention they should be returned to the country where they either already have an asylum claim pending, or to the first "safe" country they encountered on their "grand tour". I don't want to unneccessarily widen the issue but over 88% of "asylum seekers" in Ireland have made multiple claims elsewhere in the EU. In light of the recent media furore over "foreign prisoners" in the UK, it needs to be noted that over 72% o adult males from a certain African state, presently resident in Ireland have criminal convictions gained in other EU states!
Nobody wants to see anyone starve themselves to death! But common sense and the rule of law must prevail. If the Afghans entered this country from the UK they should be returned there. If from France - the same! etc etc.
We wouldn't have half the problems we have in this country if we simply applied our own laws, and applied them AT THE TIME THEY NEED TO BE APPLIED - NOT WHEN IT'S TOO LATE!

Ruu_Old · 20-05-2006 1:44pm

Helen876 wrote:

Some of you are so far up on the moral high ground I’m surprised you can even breathe. Lots of tough talk from people who are sitting in nice comfy chairs tapping away at their computers. Whatever the backgrounds of the Afghanis and whatever their tactics, they are obviously desperate people who feel they have no choice. We had hunger strikes here before. We should know that it is something that you are driven to, not something you just do as a publicity stunt. This isn’t some kind of abstract argument about the rights and wrongs of ‘blackmail’. These are real people who are suffering, and who might die. They have families and friends and stories of their own. Try and imagine what kind of situation you’d have to be in to be prepared to refuse food and water for days.

At the same time as this is going on, Irish illegal immigrants are fighting for the right to remain in the USA. How can we support them while condemning immigrants in our own country? The Irish People like to think they’re on the side of the underdog. 800 years of oppression and all that. Judging from this it’s as well we never had any real power as it doesn’t look like we’d have much to be proud of.

There are laws put in place for a reason, why cant these people understand, no matter how desperate they are. Simple as that, they had their chance like the rest of the illegals here, times up.

Pythia · 20-05-2006 1:45pm

Helen876 wrote:

We had hunger strikes here before. We should know that it is something that you are driven to, not something you just do as a publicity stunt.

I believe those were publicity stunts too.

These are real people who are suffering, and who might die. They have families and friends and stories of their own.

If they have stories of their own, why are they doing this en masse?

At the same time as this is going on, Irish illegal immigrants are fighting for the right to remain in the USA. How can we support them while condemning immigrants in our own country?

I support neither.

ferdi · 20-05-2006 1:48pm

Helen876 wrote:

These are real people....They have families and friends

so these guys are willing to die in ireland and leave their families, wives and children to fend for themselves back home? thats really noble.

AngryAnderson · 20-05-2006 1:48pm

Helen876 wrote:

Some of you are so far up on the moral high ground I’m surprised you can even breathe. Lots of tough talk from people who are sitting in nice comfy chairs tapping away at their computers. Whatever the backgrounds of the Afghanis and whatever their tactics, they are obviously desperate people who feel they have no choice.

Of course they have a choice. They're all adults or at least young adults. They have the choice not to comandeer a church. They have a choice not to starve themselves to death. They have a choice not to slash their wrists, hang themselves or throw themselves from a cathedral balcony. And, thanks to the taxpayers generosity, they have the choice to respect and obey the laws of this nation and apply for asylum the correct way.

Helen876 wrote:

We had hunger strikes here before. We should know that it is something that you are driven to, not something you just do as a publicity stunt.

Again, as I said, they have choices. Comparing this with Northern Irish hunger strikers is absolutely ridiculous.

Helen876 wrote:

This isn’t some kind of abstract argument about the rights and wrongs of ‘blackmail’. These are real people who are suffering, and who might die.

Ah come on now. They're threatening to kill themselves if we don't give them special treatment and let them skip our immigration process. That's blackmail and they've incited criminal acts in order to get what they want. It couldn't be any less abstract.

Helen876 wrote:

They have families and friends and stories of their own.

Where are their families actually? Where are the women and children? Afghanistan maybe? I'd like to know why all 41 odd hunger strikers are men. I'd also like to know why the strikers have refused to tell their individual stories to the press when given the opportunity over the last few days. Interesting, huh? Maybe they don't want anyone to find out that ex-Taliban members are in there. Oh... that one's actually already leaked. I wonder what other secrets they might have?

Helen876 wrote:

Try and imagine what kind of situation you’d have to be in to be prepared to refuse food and water for days.

Who knows. The same situation you'd have to be in to blow yourself in order to murder a few people? Some call it desparation, others call it insanity. This though, is blackmail. Pure and simple.

Helen876 wrote:

At the same time as this is going on, Irish illegal immigrants are fighting for the right to remain in the USA. How can we support them while condemning immigrants in our own country?

We don't. We're working with the US government in order to come to an agreement. If it turns out that the Irish have to leave the US and the American legal system points to the door, than there's not much that can be done and we'll have to respect that.

Helen876 wrote:

The Irish People like to think they’re on the side of the underdog. 800 years of oppression and all that. Judging from this it’s as well we never had any real power as it doesn’t look like we’d have much to be proud of.

What are you saying exactly? That we should be ashamed of ourselves because we won't cave into the demands of these men and ignore our rule of law? Are we supposed to stop doing what we're supposed to because people have threatened to kill themselves? What kind of a precident do you think this will set? What kind of an example does it demonstrate to other would-be hunger-strikers from Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nigeria? Should we allow anyone who wants to enter this country and live here do so? Should we just accept that the minute someone is in Ireland they're here to stay forever and there should be no processes or laws to deal with people in this country? It would be total anarchy.

Come on now love. You're a bleeding heart and you refuse to listen to sense or reason. Like you, my heart hopes these guys don't die... but my head tells me that if they do, then it's their own fault and nobody else's. Yours should too.

ChityWest · 20-05-2006 1:50pm

Helen876 wrote:

At the same time as this is going on, Irish illegal immigrants are fighting for the right to remain in the USA. How can we support them while condemning immigrants in our own country?

Its pretty easy to differentiate - Irish immigrants in the us didnt get a single handout - ever - they are either there legally, or, if they are illegal then they are working their asses off. They are not taking over places of worship threatening to kill themselves unless their demands are met. There is no comparison between those 2 situations and I have a hard time believing that you actually think that is the case. Also your assuming that by not supporting these afghans attempt to subvert the law of the land we are condemning all immigrants - thats just more nonsense.

juslookin · 20-05-2006 1:57pm

Helen876 wrote:

Whatever the backgrounds of the Afghanis and whatever their tactics, they are obviously desperate people who feel they have no choice. We had hunger strikes here before. We should know that it is something that you are driven to, not something you just do as a publicity stunt. This isn’t some kind of abstract argument about the rights and wrongs of ‘blackmail’. These are real people who are suffering, and who might die. They have families and friends and stories of their own. Try and imagine what kind of situation you’d have to be in to be prepared to refuse food and water for days.
.

Are they ? How do you KNOW any of this. Whose to say they are even Afghan ? You don't know.

No choice ?

They had the choice of claiming asylum in all number of European countries before deciding to plump for Ireland.

They had the choice of going through a recognised fair transparent legal due process.

Whatever their tactics ? Their tactics are to turn Ireland back into an overcrowded third world country

Hunger strikes, an extreme publicity stunt, and it worked. But I Didn't see a Bobby Sands and co popping out for a fag break, before getting a cab back to the H Block.

Suffering? Ever tried fasting? Once you get past the second day its not that bad.

Might die ? They have been given the opportunity to starve themselves to death, jump from the organ, hang themselves from the bell, slit their wrists.

If one of them dies probably will be one with a real issue. But that does not automatically mean the other 40 are in the same boat.

Don't compare it with the Irish. All far as I'm aware all the irish ever asked for in this country was a shovel and a ditch, to keep their heads down and muck in with the indiginous populace and the only special treatment was to understand that they get pissed on paddies day and might not turn up for work. Same with the Indians and first generation Carribeans.

"Racism" is bollocks.

Get into a chat with an 50s immigrant to London these days, be they Asian or Black and they are just as pissed off at the English about what's happening. Colonisation, with the help of gang of crooked lawyers on massive legal aid pay packets, forgers, childen to trade, and misguided sympathetic "anti racists". Come over to London to see us for the weekend. It's like Disneyland for foreign chancers and criminals.

The Irish people fought a bloody terrible battle for the right to determine their destiny. And now they should throw it all away ?

Sorry. Yeah I'm a ****. But if you cave into this the implications are not worth thinking about.

DrawYourSword · 20-05-2006 2:07pm

Is it too much to expect that the government will turn around and say its all a big joke, it was part of the major emergency plan or something, rehersal into this kind of thing?

I personally am against what they are doing. I will have no faith in this Government if they cave in and give them what they want.

Catney · 20-05-2006 2:11pm

Mc Dowell is doing a Thatcher. Department of Justice have instructed Church authorities to stop negotiating, and that it is a police matter. And all compromises struck overnight are not being considered by the state authorities. Think these Afghans are going to have to show that their mettle is not made of air.

darkman2 · 20-05-2006 2:13pm

No more negotiation im afraid. The Justice department has given the final instruction to the church authorities to end all negotiation:(

DrawYourSword · 20-05-2006 2:14pm

Catney wrote:

Mc Dowell is doing a Thatcher. Department of Justice have instructed Church authorities to stop negotiating, and that it is a police matter. And all compromises struck overnight are not being considered by the state authorities. Think these Afghans are going to have to show that their mettle is not made of air.

If only they had thought of this on day one.

If 2 homeless people had tried to sleep in the cathedral on a cold night the gards would be around in minutes forcably ejecting them.
In reading this thread i am amazed at how much public opinion is going against them, im near happy at this. These days it's near impossible to have an opinion on something like this without being labelled a racist or being told you have to be more PC.
I think if anything we have gone too politically correct...

EDIT it might even be worth while having a poll on the issue...

rkeane · 20-05-2006 2:17pm

We are being infiltrated by indymedia lefties...this is pure crap.

Catney,

Every Poll (Irish Times, FM104, TODAY FM) shows that the vast Majority of people are behind Michael Mc Dowell. The state is not run by any church - there will be no compromises with these loonies.

Deport the lot of them - I'm sick of Indymedia type liberals.

DOLEMAN · 20-05-2006 2:24pm

I hate this nonsense. These people are clearly totally unstable and unreasonable. They are certainly extremists.

Either ignore them, let them die, or kick them out. Ireland is not a charity. We don't need freaks like these. I'm sorry, but I already pay enough tax. I don't want to be funding this kind of ****.

peterq · 20-05-2006 2:26pm

As usual the liberal-left think they have all the answers....
....personally I think they've mis-heard the question!

Hack · 20-05-2006 2:27pm

A 17 year old Afghan protester said yesterday that their families support them. However, I do not believe this. Where ae their mothers, fathers, girlfriends, brothers and sisters and so on in all of this? There have been no reports about this. Why are they all men? And, why are they in a Christain church? Were they not allowed in a Mosque? If a counter protest took place in a MOsque, what do you think would happen?

And, these guys refuse to dwell into their exact role in Afgahn society. They refuse to say if they were once Taliban or not, exactly why they would die if they went back there and they have been difficult in ways like this to journalists. It must also be mentioned that the Government will not send them to Afghanistan. They will send them to Italy or France - the countries they first entered in the EU before coming to Ireland.

ChityWest · 20-05-2006 2:28pm

Catney wrote:

Mc Dowell is doing a Thatcher. Department of Justice have instructed Church authorities to stop negotiating, and that it is a police matter. And all compromises struck overnight are not being considered by the state authorities. Think these Afghans are going to have to show that their mettle is not made of air.

There should not be any negotiations with these people - they are not in a position to negotiate anything.

They need to learn some manners - they are our guests here and need to show some respect to both the people and to the laws of this land. What gives them the right to 'negotiate' and weasel influence or concessions (compromises as you put it) in the first place ?

Comparing mc Dowell to Thatcher is a very cheap attempt to try and paint these people as being akin to the H Block hunger strikers - there is absolutely no comparison in my book.

base2 · 20-05-2006 2:34pm

Theres a counter demonstration at 3pm being organised for people who want them to leave the church and Ireland. Should be interesting.

Catney · 20-05-2006 2:34pm

ChityWest wrote:

Comparing mc Dowell to Thatcher is a very cheap attempt to try and paint these people as being akin to the H Block hunger strikers - there is absolutely no comparison in my book.

My apologies, I actually didn't mean to compare this with the H Block hunger strikers, merely saying that he was "not for turning", as was Thatcher. And fair play to him.

Catney · 20-05-2006 2:36pm

oh god. The words counter-demonstration have taken on a sinister meaning in Dublin recently. I hope the guys from Feb 25th don't make their way up there. I wouldnt be surprised.

ChityWest · 20-05-2006 2:37pm

Fair enough - sorry for snapping (group Hugs!!) - IThis whole thing is just very very aggravating.

DOLEMAN · 20-05-2006 2:38pm

These "residents against racism" folk. I know them well. They're members of all the anti-whatever groups. They don't actually give a **** about the issues they protest about, they just like to protest.

I used to e involved in a pro-palestine group. I had to leave because I was so sick of being surrounded by people who were protesting because they were either on an ego trip or were idiots.

I like beside the church in question, I am going to head over in a few minutes and take some video clips!

bounty · 20-05-2006 2:38pm

let them die... just a couple of illegal immigrants anyway, who fcuking cares?

padi89 · 20-05-2006 2:43pm

Couldnt care less about them,let them off,its starting to bore me now.

juslookin · 20-05-2006 2:47pm

"Nobody Is Illegal" = Anarchy

Fine, I'll be round to your place this evening then to move in. And I won't tell you how long I'm staying for either, who I am or what I am up to. And if I want to sleep in your bed, or devour the fridge without replacing it, I'll do so.

Members of Residents Against Racism and suchlike should be asked to personally fund and personally vouch for the people they support, maybe personally take them in under their own roofs.

It was sort out the sloganeerers from the doers. They want this that and the other done, fine, do it yourself. Often when it comes down to it the sloganeering only goes as far as letting somebody else take responsibility.

Yook · 20-05-2006 2:56pm

DOLEMAN wrote:

I like beside the church in question, I am going to head over in a few minutes and take some video clips!

Please post them up mate. I'd be interested to see.

base2 wrote:

Theres a counter demonstration at 3pm being organised for people who want them to leave the church and Ireland. Should be interesting.

I would have loved to go to that, if i wasnt studying for exams

Winters · 20-05-2006 3:06pm

Jayus.

Send them off. Breaking the law and staging stunts like this is not a way to stay in the country. Sure, if they did a stunt like that in the UK or US it would probably be classed as terrorism.

Afghan hunger strike in St Patricks.

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