How do we judge this Fine Gael government?

For Reals · 19-03-2015 3:19pm #1

I find it odd there are so many threads on Sinn Fein, 'the left' (various independents) and Lucinda Creighton etc. How everybody not connected to the status quo are ruining the country and will be the death of us should they ever get in, but let's hear Lucinda out...

We'd months of debate on Gilmore and his Wife selling a house to the local VEC, (but they were in opposition then).
So today we've this...

'Former minister appoints wife to €38k position'
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0319/688129-john-perry/

And there was this....
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fg-td-hires-wife-as-aide-after-council-bid-fails-26716863.html

On this topic Kenny says,

'Asked about a number of Fine Gael TDs who were reported to have hired family after the election of March 2011 he said: "I've made a point of saying that it's not good practice to appoint family members.
But I have to say these are personal appointments, they are not Government appointments, they don't have to be approved by Government."

He promised us a cleaning of the house, a new look at things etc. etc....but he lied on record and seems to dismiss any wrong doing like the usual politician we are sadly so accustomed to.

Like Thatcher's terms, is it a case of balance the books and if homelessness and suicide rates or child poverty increases, what of it?
What is the point of balancing the books if it does not serve the public. Who are we serving here?
You work, pay tax and bear the brunt of any miscalculation or ineptitude on the part of those living and gambling on a different plain.
I don't think taxing the rich is any kind of answer, we need look at the entire system and rebuild. It doesn't work as it stands. The last decade has once again proven this. Shuffling money around to keep things as is is lunacy from any viewpoint, except the top tier, who basically can do no wrong as the tax payer has their back.

I feel we've seen nothing new from Fine Gael this jant on the merry-go-round despite what Kenny sold the great unwashed.
To paraphrase Monty Python, apart from appeasing the international money syndicates, what has this FG government done for us?
It might be good for the big business money men, but I guarantee it will not make a blind bit of difference to the average worker.

I would really appreciate a low level of 'what if's' as regards the chicken little community on the right. The country is what it is due to Fianna Fail and Fine Gael, with a little input from some side players. If you've issues with unions or public sector workers, let's discuss it but any issues are on the back of current or previous governments....hey, maybe it's them you don't like? But I guess you didn't die in the civil war to go off and join up with some pinkos....

Baggy Trousers · 19-03-2015 4:31pm

I would like Enda to explain how this fits in with "New Politics"

gandalf · 19-03-2015 4:52pm

From the aspect of getting the economy back in line, they have done a good job. It could have been swifter and more decisive. The fact that things are looking up, more people are getting back to work and the tax take is on the way up has to be seen as a success given the state we were in when they came into power.

Now thats the good over with.

Political reform, the whole reason I gave these guys my vote has been non-existent. Yes we did have our referendum on the abolishment of the Seanad but it was fudged by them.

No reform of the Dail at all. Cronyism is alive and well and flourishing under them despite all the promises before the election. Quangos have not been cut down in any meaningful way at all. They have actually created one of the worst quango's in the history of the state with Irish Water stuffed to the gills with former Public Servants who failed to deliver proper Water infrastructure in their previous day jobs.

The Health Service is a absolute disaster again with no real prospect of any real reform.

So far based on the economic performance they scrape a D minus. The scary thing is none of alternatives at the moment appear any better!

Baggy Trousers · 19-03-2015 4:55pm

gandalf wrote: »

From the aspect of getting the economy back in line, they have done a good job. It could have been swifter and more decisive. The fact that things are looking up, more people are getting back to work and the tax take is on the way up has to be seen as a success given the state we were in when they came into power.

Now thats the good over with.

Political reform, the whole reason I gave these guys my vote has been non-existent. Yes we did have our referendum on the abolishment of the Seanad but it was fudged by them.

No reform of the Dail at all. Cronyism is alive and well and flourishing under them despite all the promises before the election. Quangos have not been cut down in any meaningful way at all. They have actually created one of the worst quango's in the history of the state with Irish Water stuffed to the gills with former Public Servants who failed to deliver proper Water infrastructure in their previous day jobs.

The Health Service is a absolute disaster again with no real prospect of any real reform.

So far based on the economic performance they scrape a D minus. The scary thing is none of alternatives at the moment appear any better!

Great post. And to be honest I think they got lucky on the economy.

On the Seanad reform - where is that now?

Completely agree on HSE and HSE Mark II (Irish Water)

Grade F for me.

gandalf · 19-03-2015 5:14pm

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

Great post. And to be honest I think they got lucky on the economy.

They probably did because imho they should have been far more decisive and we have seen very little real reform of the PS as well. Again it was promised but once they went in coalition with Labour you just knew it was never going to be delivered on.

On the Seanad reform - where is that now?

Dead in the water I reckon. If it's being kept the voting needs to be opened to all. I'd even include people who have been resident in Ireland for over five years as well to give them some say in how their tax money is spent. Having the current closed shop is not acceptable at all where a small number of people get a vote because they attended X University over Y college.

Completely agree on HSE and HSE Mark II (Irish Water)

Grade F for me.

Being a glass half full sort of fellow I tend to be over generous

BoJack Horseman · 19-03-2015 5:40pm

I'd give them a 'C minus' grade.

- Budgetary recovery is fine, but dealt disproportionate harm due to Labour.

- Tax policy is fine imo.

- PS reform, minuscule, thanks to labour.

- Political reform, good considering the zero amount that went before it.
Senate abolishment
Children's court
Giving real power to oireachtas committees.
Reducing size of Dáil
Judges pay.
Reducing councillors by several hundred.
SSM/protection of life..... bill.

Some succeeded, some the people voted down, but the intention deserves credit..... FG still pathologically addicted to cute hoorism though.

Others:
Defence..... For all the hate he got, Shatter did actually give a sh*t about the brief, they have left things in better nick than they found it.
Hopefully the procurement of an MPV for the navy & expanded missions in the gulf of Aden will expand the scope of our DF.

Environment.... Aside from the long awaited septic tank initiative & IW, not good.....

Agriculture..... Good, Coveny proved an able negotiator with the EU.

Education.... No difference really... Stasis.

Transport: poor.... Labour protecting sacred cows devastated unnecessarily the capital investment budget.....

Health.... No change really,
still underfunded.... Likely to remain same for a while.

Jobs: pretty good but appears to be trailing off slightly.

For Reals · 19-03-2015 6:41pm

I gave them preference...I feel duped. I think the country was in such a bad way it was assumed, at least on my behalf, that enough was enough we needed to reevaluate the way the country was run. It was as serious and disastrous as it gets. I believed apart from the Fianna Fail excusers, we were a united country at least on that.

So Fine Gael ****ed us as far as I'm concerned and they made a complete balls of the Seanad abolishion. We had people voting against it to spite Kenny, which goes back to feeling duped.
I feel all they've done is keep the wheels turning. They have made no real positive impact on the nation. It really is and will be business as usual, we missed the chance.

JustTheOne · 19-03-2015 6:49pm

gandalf wrote: »

From the aspect of getting the economy back in line, they have done a good job. It could have been swifter and more decisive. The fact that things are looking up, more people are getting back to work and the tax take is on the way up has to be seen as a success given the state we were in when they came into power.

Now thats the good over with.

Political reform, the whole reason I gave these guys my vote has been non-existent. Yes we did have our referendum on the abolishment of the Seanad but it was fudged by them.

No reform of the Dail at all. Cronyism is alive and well and flourishing under them despite all the promises before the election. Quangos have not been cut down in any meaningful way at all. They have actually created one of the worst quango's in the history of the state with Irish Water stuffed to the gills with former Public Servants who failed to deliver proper Water infrastructure in their previous day jobs.

The Health Service is a absolute disaster again with no real prospect of any real reform.

So far based on the economic performance they scrape a D minus. The scary thing is none of alternatives at the moment appear any better!

Do you think given the mess the HSE was in when ff were voted out, fg could turn it around in a few years?

These things takes time, it's a huge task.

JustTheOne · 19-03-2015 6:52pm

For Reals wrote: »

I gave them preference...I feel duped. I think the country was in such a bad way it was assumed, at least on my behalf, that enough was enough we needed to reevaluate the way the country was run. It was as serious and disastrous as it gets. I believed apart from the Fianna Fail excusers, we were a united country at least on that.

So Fine Gael ****ed us as far as I'm concerned and they made a complete balls of the Seanad abolishion. We had people voting against it to spite Kenny, which goes back to feeling duped.
I feel all they've done is keep the wheels turning. They have made no real positive impact on the nation. It really is and will be business as usual, we missed the chance.

I don't think you realise how bad a state the country was in when they assumed power.

We have come on so much considering where we were 4 years ago.

They deserve some credit.

Godge · 19-03-2015 7:03pm

Firstly, it is not a Fine Gael government it is a coalition of FG/Labour.

Secondly, they achieved their primary goal, get us out from under the Troika and regain control of our own finances.

Thirdly, they have broadened the tax base with the introduction of the LPT and water charges.

Fourthly, they have kept public expenditure in check, particularly public service pay.

I am actually surprised that they achieved that much. For all that they had a bad year last year, there is a significant record of achievement. If the SSM referendum passes, they will also be able to point to a solid record of positive constitutional change.

emo72 · 19-03-2015 7:26pm

all the talk of "A new way of doing things! Openness and transparency!" duuuh.... i really hoped he meant it. but that was a crock of kerap, when it came to the whistleblowers and head honcho garda "retiring". okay lets be open about it Enda, tell us why you sent your official to see him the night before he retired? NOPE.

and as for FG/Lab doing all the hard work and turning the economy around? they did nothing but sign all the laws that meant WE pay for all this. in fact they didnt even ask for a write down, "shure be grand, we'll tax plebs and their children for the next coupla decades". "No need for write downs, Paddy will pay. I'm still okay for my numerous pensions and big wages, oh, and expenses yeah? grand so I'll sign Paddy up for that!!!"

i find it massively distasteful that he is telling the world tonight that greece better sort itself out and sign up to pay too. at least the greek government is fighting for a better deal for its people. i know the greeks are far from perfect, but come on, dont stick the knife in Enda.

JustTheOne · 19-03-2015 7:30pm

emo72 wrote: »

all the talk of "A new way of doing things! Openness and transparency!" duuuh.... i really hoped he meant it. but that was a crock of kerap, when it came to the whistleblowers and head honcho garda "retiring". okay lets be open about it Enda, tell us why you sent your official to see him the night before he retired? NOPE.

and as for FG/Lab doing all the hard work and turning the economy around? they did nothing but sign all the laws that meant WE pay for all this. in fact they didnt even ask for a write down, "shure be grand, we'll tax plebs and their children for the next coupla decades". "No need for write downs, Paddy will pay. I'm still okay for my numerous pensions and big wages, oh, and expenses yeah? grand so I'll sign Paddy up for that!!!"

i find it massively distasteful that he is telling the world tonight that greece better sort itself out and sign up to pay too. at least the greek government is fighting for a better deal for its people. i know the greeks are far from perfect, but come on, dont stick the knife in Enda.

We have had 4 changes to the bailout terms all better and all under fg.

Greece are making things worst for their people, so why the comparison?

johnnyskeleton · 19-03-2015 7:35pm

For Reals wrote: »

I feel all they've done is keep the wheels turning. They have made no real positive impact on the nation. It really is and will be business as usual, we missed the chance.

Is that not something good in itself? When they came to power and for the first few years we were in bailout mode, since then they have kept a steady hand on the tiller, alhough to what extent that is their doing or just ordinary market forces having effect is hard to tell.

I voted independent followed by labour last time. Im tempted to go independent followed by FG this time around because Im not convinced the other parties will do a better job. A lot can happen in a year though, and i wouldnt want to see a giveaway budget this year just to buy votes.

Celly Smunt · 19-03-2015 8:00pm

Isn't it FG job to fix the foundation for the country to boom and for FF to run it back into the ground?,this might take two terms to fix the economy this time but you can bet in 5 years time FF will inherit a nice country to ruin.

emo72 · 19-03-2015 8:08pm

JustTheOne wrote: »

We have had 4 changes to the bailout terms all better and all under fg.

Greece are making things worst for their people, so why the comparison?

greece a basically fooked, and are agitating for a better deal. i mentioned them because they are trying to get a better deal. we had 4 changes to the bailout, but prolonging the loan isn't always a better deal.

oh and we were promised recapitalisation of the banks. The "Game changer". where that gone? Greece aren't making things worse for their people, the rest of europe is. Enda is praying they dont get a deal because he will then then look ridicuous. and there he is twisting the knife tonight. odious behaviour in fairness.

ezra_pound · 19-03-2015 8:12pm

emo72 wrote: »

all the talk of "A new way of doing things! Openness and transparency!" duuuh.... i really hoped he meant it. but that was a crock of kerap, when it came to the whistleblowers and head honcho garda "retiring". okay lets be open about it Enda, tell us why you sent your official to see him the night before he retired? NOPE.

and as for FG/Lab doing all the hard work and turning the economy around? they did nothing but sign all the laws that meant WE pay for all this. in fact they didnt even ask for a write down, "shure be grand, we'll tax plebs and their children for the next coupla decades". "No need for write downs, Paddy will pay. I'm still okay for my numerous pensions and big wages, oh, and expenses yeah? grand so I'll sign Paddy up for that!!!"

i find it massively distasteful that he is telling the world tonight that greece better sort itself out and sign up to pay too. at least the greek government is fighting for a better deal for its people. i know the greeks are far from perfect, but come on, dont stick the knife in Enda.

Please tell me you're not old enough to vote. Please!

emo72 · 19-03-2015 8:19pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

Please tell me you're not old enough to vote. Please!

i've been voting long enough to know that nothing ever really changes unfortunately.

edit... well nothing will ever change if people think solutions lie with FF/FG/LAB.

For Reals · 19-03-2015 9:57pm

JustTheOne wrote: »

I don't think you realise how bad a state the country was in when they assumed power.

We have come on so much considering where we were 4 years ago.

They deserve some credit.

Agreed. And I do, believe me. That's the point.
It was a wasted opportunity. More people were aware and interested in how the country was run than in living memory.

Godge wrote: »

Firstly, it is not a Fine Gael government it is a coalition of FG/Labour.

...
I am actually surprised that they achieved that much. For all that they had a bad year last year, there is a significant record of achievement. If the SSM referendum passes, they will also be able to point to a solid record of positive constitutional change.

Greasing the wheels is all.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Is that not something good in itself? When they came to power and for the first few years we were in bailout mode, since then they have kept a steady hand on the tiller, alhough to what extent that is their doing or just ordinary market forces having effect is hard to tell.

......

We were sinking, now we have cups to scoop out the water and stay afloat, but there's still massive ****ing holes, (quangos, job for boys/wives etc) in the boat.

.

Zubeneschamali · 19-03-2015 10:19pm

gandalf wrote: »

From the aspect of getting the economy back in line, they have done a good job. It could have been swifter and more decisive.

In fairness, that was not Fine Gael's fault - they would have liked 2:1 cuts to tax rises, but had to negotiate with Labour, who wanted 1:2 cuts to tax rises, and protection for pensions, welfare and PS pay.

Fine Gael on their own would have cut the deficit faster and gotten us back to growth faster. I think this means Labour did a good job of protecting their voters, personally, but you can't blame FG for it.

Baggy Trousers · 19-03-2015 10:20pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

Please tell me you're not old enough to vote. Please!

That's an ignorant post. If you don't agree, argue the points.

Zubeneschamali · 19-03-2015 10:22pm

emo72 wrote: »

edit... well nothing will ever change if people think solutions lie with FF/FG/LAB.

If only we had a government like Syriza - man, is there going to be change in Greece!

emo72 · 19-03-2015 11:26pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

If only we had a government like Syriza - man, is there going to be change in Greece!

obviously there is no easy solution for greece. what did the rest of europe do for germany after the war? did we do a deal on war reparations?

either way this thread is about how do we judge FG? i was really hoping they would do better when it came to the banking debt, and then they announced the retrospective recapitalisation of the banks, the game changer. but then we get told that doesnt apply to us because we were first in! sorry lads ze rulez dont apply to you. new rules from now on. whoever was negotiating for us fooked us over big time.

i also cant grant them kudos for getting us out of the bailout, because it was imposed on us, basically FF did a lot of adjustments, then FG just kept to the same script from our buddies in the troika.

if they could have got rid of some of that banking debt, i would hand it to them. but they failed miserably.

sorry its a big fat fail from me.

BoJack Horseman · 20-03-2015 12:09am

emo72 wrote: »

obviously there is no easy solution for greece. what did the rest of europe do for germany after the war? did we do a deal on war reparations?

Ireland wasn't paid any.

i was really hoping they would do better when it came to the banking debt,

They got a deal, it just wasn't the one people wanted.

and then they announced the retrospective recapitalisation of the banks, the game changer. but then we get told that doesnt apply to us because we were first in!

That stung alright.

i also cant grant them kudos for getting us out of the bailout, because it was imposed on us

Thankfully so, otherwise things would be much worse.

if they could have got rid of some of that banking debt, i would hand it to them. but they failed miserably.

They did though.
The Anglo promissory note doesn't get paid till 2038.
By then it will probably be inflated away to nothing.
The state has either already gotten or will get its money back from the other banks.

Good loser · 20-03-2015 1:30am

Baggy Trousers wrote: »

That's an ignorant post. If you don't agree, argue the points.

Some 'points' are so hopelessly inept they don't merit a serious response.

howiya · 20-03-2015 1:31am

For Reals wrote: »

Agreed. And I do, believe me. That's the point.
It was a wasted opportunity. More people were aware and interested in how the country was run than in living memory.

This is the point I will judge FG against. The country having to call in the IMF and the subsequent general election generated an interest in politics I've never seen in my life time in this country.

People voted for Leo's famous "Not another red cent" speech as unrealistic as it was. They voted for an end to stroke politics etc.

FG have squandered that massive opportunity and have continued to embroil themselves in story lines that show that the old politics will always prevail in this country regardless of the party that governs.

Today's headline that a former minister is essentially taking what he can from the taxpayer by "employing his wife" to maximise his income while in office is just the latest in a long line of examples.

Chips Lovell · 20-03-2015 9:07am

Economic policy and fiscal discipline: not bad.

Political reform: Almost non-existent aside from the half hearted Seanad abolition referendum.

Water charges: Absolute disaster. Will take years to get a decent system in place now.

Cronyism and strokes: Far too much of it.

The next year will be telling. There'll be an urge to start spending like drunken sailors in a bid to get re-elected.

El_Duderino 09 · 20-03-2015 9:26am

JustTheOne wrote: »

I don't think you realise how bad a state the country was in when they assumed power.

We have come on so much considering where we were 4 years ago.

They deserve some credit.

I agree. The best government in the world would probably only get 4/10 of their election promises through. I'm surprised how quickly everyone seems to have forgotten how close the state came to completely disaster.

Now we have 3% anual growth so people are asking why they weren't focusing on reforming the health service. The answer is that they were busy making the bread we have already forgotten eating.

JustTheOne · 20-03-2015 10:26am

howiya wrote: »

This is the point I will judge FG against. The country having to call in the IMF and the subsequent general election generated an interest in politics I've never seen in my life time in this country.

People voted for Leo's famous "Not another red cent" speech as unrealistic as it was. They voted for an end to stroke politics etc.

FG have squandered that massive opportunity and have continued to embroil themselves in story lines that show that the old politics will always prevail in this country regardless of the party that governs.

Today's headline that a former minister is essentially taking what he can from the taxpayer by "employing his wife" to maximise his income while in office is just the latest in a long line of examples.

That report shows every party has a family member employed not just fg.

The red cent was in relation to Anglo, and they stuck to that.

howiya · 20-03-2015 11:15am

JustTheOne wrote: »

That report shows every party has a family member employed not just fg.

The red cent was in relation to Anglo, and they stuck to that.

The only article I read yesterday was on rte.ie and solely mentioned John Perry. I don't agree with the practice of employing family members full stop unless they have been appointed after a competition ran by the Public Appointments Service during which they have shown to be the best candidate.

In the instance of Mr. Perry though it is clear he is a man with his nose firmly in the trough. He is a man in deep financial trouble and is clearly using his position as a TD to maximise the amount of money he can obtain from the taxpayer to go towards solving his financial problems. You only have to look at his expense claims to see this. Now that he has been demoted from junior minister he is employing his wife to make up for the lost income.

In relation to your second point I suggest you listen to Leo's interview from 2011 because you are factually incorrect.

Here's a quote from the interview sourced from http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/not-a-cent-more-for-the-banks-vows-fg-144826.html

"“Any bank coming to us looking for more money is going to have to show how they are going to impose losses on their junior bondholders, on their senior bondholders, and on other creditors before they come looking to us for any more money. Not another cent.”

BoJack Horseman · 20-03-2015 11:26am

howiya wrote: »

Here's a quote from the interview sourced from http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/not-a-cent-more-for-the-banks-vows-fg-144826.html

Any monies transfered to Anglo/IBRC subsequently were already committed.

Leo was technically right.... But disingenuous.

howiya · 20-03-2015 11:45am

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Any monies transfered to Anglo/IBRC subsequently were already committed.

Leo was technically right.... But disingenuous.

And what about the money given to the rest of the banks?

How do we judge this Fine Gael government?

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