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Proposed Public sector pay rises

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    #1412
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    barneystinson wrote: »
    That's genuinely very interesting, but of very little relevance here surely?

    Relevance here, on this particular thread, hasn't really been a concern for most of the thread and clearly isn't something of value by the more active poster on this thread. As to the relevance of my point, its all well and good to make a sweeping statement about 'the private sector' or 'the public sector' however there can be underlying causative issues which can help explain perceived anomalies.


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    #1413
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    sarumite wrote: »
    Of course all is not always as it seems on the surface. It is known that male academics climb the ladder faster than females in universities. The conventional wisdom is that universities are old boys clubs looking after themselves and the misogynist department heads actively keep female academics down. While some of this is certainly true and there is an disappointing lack of high level female academics in universities, several studies have shown other causes for the misalignment in qualifications and senior positions. Studies have shown that female academic are less likely to actively seek out collaborations, are less likely to push their publications in high impact journals, are less likely to cite themselves or push their colleagues to cite their work. Whereas male colleagues set-up citations circles (you cite me, i'll cite you) females are less likely to do the same.

    Not true of everywhere.

    Last time I checked 6 of the 14 Institutes of Technology had female Presidents.


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    #1414
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    Godge wrote: »
    Not true of everywhere.

    Last time I checked 6 of the 14 Institutes of Technology had female Presidents.

    While I never stated it was 'everywhere', I don't think that looking at a single academic position as it applies to 14 institutes of Technoloy in Ireland is a particularly diverse nor representative sampling pool.


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    #1415
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    sarumite wrote: »
    While I never stated it was 'everywhere', I don't think that looking at a single academic position as it applies to 14 institutes of Technoloy in Ireland is a particularly diverse nor representative sampling pool.

    Well just stating your belief is of less relevance, at least I dug a statistic out.


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    #1416
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,251 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Godge wrote: »
    Probably about half the hours of a junior doctor and a tenth of the training required.

    Oh you are back!

    Funny to read you are so interested in more up to date data comparing PS and private sector pay but criticised the C&AG for trying to measure the enormous unfunded public sector pension liability the State faces!

    Only when the figures suit you, eh Godge?


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    #1417
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    OMD wrote: »
    Fascinating stuff. Public servants got a pay cut so there is now no difference in pay. Lucky there was no cuts in the Private sector or else your figures would be totally wrong.

    Yes, correct.

    All PS took a minimum of two cuts to basic pay.

    Some took three pay cuts (HRA).

    Some took four paycuts (young teachers).

    Yes, cuts to basic pay were rare in the private sector. Cuts to jobs were not.


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    #1418
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    OMD wrote: »

    Why should the data include pension contributions for Public sector but not private sector? Private sector employee would have to pay substantially more to get the same benefits as public sector employee so if you were to include pension benefits the Public Sector premium would increase not decrease.

    I'm not sure what you mean here.

    But yes, PS pensions are generous, and the standard 6.5% of wages cont rate means it's good value for the worker.


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    #1419
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    Oh you are back!

    Funny to read you are so interested in more up to date data comparing PS and private sector pay but criticised the C&AG for trying to measure the enormous unfunded public sector pension liability the State faces!

    Only when the figures suit you, eh Godge?

    Only when the figures stand up.

    I criticised Gueze's figures as being out of date as well mentioning some post-report events.

    The C&AG measured pension scheme liability in 2008 and got it spectacularly wrong as the more recent DPER report concedes. Even then, to hide the blushes of the C&AG, they rely on some of the same mistaken assumptions to hide the magnitude of the drop in cost. DPER say it has dropped from 116bn to 98 bn, I say it has dropped further, probably to about 80 bn.

    The DPER report has little to say about the new pension scheme which is in about two years now and will drop costs further.

    Go back to what I said here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94075555&postcount=1394

    "As I keep telling you all, THERE IS NO UP-TO-DATE CORRECT AND UNBIASED DATA OR STUDIES COMPARING SIMILAR JOBS IN THE PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTOR."

    I will continue to pick through the holes in the reports, all of which are flawed.


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    #1420
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Letree wrote: »
    Nor the fact that the semi states are paid better than the regular public service.


    A very good point.

    Amid all the fighting between the PS and the private sector, the semi-states have got away with few or no paycuts.

    PS staff = 2-3 pay cuts.

    ESB workers = ???? - and we have the most expensive electricity in Europe (pre-tax)


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    #1421
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Kangoo Man wrote: »
    II read last year that 371 secondary teachers earned over €100k pa, even after the cuts, with 5 months off per year, that sounds like a well paid job to me...


    These are all PRINCIPALS of schools..


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    #1422
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,251 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Godge wrote: »
    Only when the figures stand up.

    I criticised Gueze's figures as being out of date as well mentioning some post-report events.

    The C&AG measured pension scheme liability in 2008 and got it spectacularly wrong as the more recent DPER report concedes. Even then, to hide the blushes of the C&AG, they rely on some of the same mistaken assumptions to hide the magnitude of the drop in cost. DPER say it has dropped from 116bn to 98 bn, I say it has dropped further, probably to about 80 bn.

    The DPER report has little to say about the new pension scheme which is in about two years now and will drop costs further.

    Go back to what I said here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=94075555&postcount=1394

    "As I keep telling you all, THERE IS NO UP-TO-DATE CORRECT AND UNBIASED DATA OR STUDIES COMPARING SIMILAR JOBS IN THE PUBLIC AND PRIVATE SECTOR."

    I will continue to pick through the holes in the reports, all of which are flawed.


    Nah, the DPER report says it uses the same methodology but just alters variables.

    Just stop, concede this one time you don't really know what you are talking about and move on.

    The new pension scheme will make very little difference to a contingent liability Godge. It currently affects well under 5% of public sector workers.

    I'd love to know where you plucked 80bn from.

    When you revalue a contingent liability as big as the total cost of unfunded public sectors you will see a change. When you do it three years after the worst financial crisis in the state, with reduced PS pay, the Crown Park pay freeze in place, reduced public secto numbers and a levy on public sector pensions then you are going to see a more significant change.

    Your assertion that the C&AG got it "spectacularly wrong" is just you trying to justify to yourselve that there was a fundamental mistake in the calculations at the time. What actually happened, as I outlined above, is that the facts on the ground changed radically. And yet... Even with this radical change our projected liability is still 100bn euros. It will be interesting to see as I would expect, if pay increases or other increase this faster than the number of new entrants joining on the inferior scheme can reduce it.

    Where did you hear private sector wages have increased by 2%? Is it in the same Cso statistics you claim can't be used to illustrate a significant difference in private and public pay?


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    #1423
    Kangoo Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Kangoo Man


    Geuze wrote: »
    These are all PRINCIPALS of schools..

    So they are the principle teachers in the school, this makes me feel so much better.

    Next time my kids school sends me a letter, asking for funds for toilet paper, heating oil, photo copying paper, computers, I'll tell them to ask the principle for the money instead, as they have a €100,000+ salary.

    Given that 80% of the budget for education goes on pay and pensions, it little wonder that they can't afford toilet paper...


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    #1424
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    Kangoo Man wrote: »
    So they are the principle teachers in the school, this makes me feel so much better.

    Next time my kids school sends me a letter, asking for funds for toilet paper, heating oil, photo copying paper, computers, I'll tell them to ask the principle for the money instead, as they have a €100,000+ salary.

    Given that 80% of the budget for education goes on pay and pensions, it little wonder that they can't afford toilet paper...

    You're right, they could make a great papier mâché teacher if they just had enough toilet roll, and stick it at the top of the classroom like a scarecrow... the kids would learn a lot then... :rolleyes:


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    #1425
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    Kangoo Man wrote: »
    So they are the principle teachers in the school, this makes me feel so much better.

    Next time my kids school sends me a letter, asking for funds for toilet paper, heating oil, photo copying paper, computers, I'll tell them to ask the principle for the money instead, as they have a €100,000+ salary.

    Given that 80% of the budget for education goes on pay and pensions, it little wonder that they can't afford toilet paper...

    Unless you've actually tried to do a particular job, such as that of the principal of a large underfunded school, or can validly profess to know what the job entails, I don't really see how you are in a position to comment on how much they're paid.

    I'd imagine its a very stressful job, with a lot of responsibility - I wouldn't want it if you offered me 100k.


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    #1426
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    Nah, the DPER report says it uses the same methodology but just alters variables.

    Just stop, concede this one time you don't really know what you are talking about and move on.

    The new pension scheme will make very little difference to a contingent liability Godge. It currently affects well under 5% of public sector workers.

    I'd love to know where you plucked 80bn from.

    When you revalue a contingent liability as big as the total cost of unfunded public sectors you will see a change. When you do it three years after the worst financial crisis in the state, with reduced PS pay, the Crown Park pay freeze in place, reduced public secto numbers and a levy on public sector pensions then you are going to see a more significant change.

    Your assertion that the C&AG got it "spectacularly wrong" is just you trying to justify to yourselve that there was a fundamental mistake in the calculations at the time. What actually happened, as I outlined above, is that the facts on the ground changed radically. And yet... Even with this radical change our projected liability is still 100bn euros. It will be interesting to see as I would expect, if pay increases or other increase this faster than the number of new entrants joining on the inferior scheme can reduce it.

    Where did you hear private sector wages have increased by 2%? Is it in the same Cso statistics you claim can't be used to illustrate a significant difference in private and public pay?

    Look back in this thread for the evidence of the 2% pay increases in the private sector, all of the big private sector employers are giving this from retail to manufacturing to pharmaceutical. Try Industrial Relations News if you want to verify it.

    The 80bn was mentioned in a PAC debate I think, an admission from one of the DPER employees. Can't be bothered finding it for you.

    Look, I know this stuff, I worked with it for quite a few years before leaving the public service.

    I do not maintain that the public sector are overpaid or underpaid. I just maintain that all of the studies are flawed and I have repeatedly pointed out their flaws. If you want tabloid headlines, follow the CSO crude statistics, if you want nuanced higher-brow stuff, follow the likes of Dan O'Brien and Marc Coleman who ignore the flaws but present the data quite well, but at the end of the day, none of them (and that includes me) have an accurate handling on what public sector salary levels should be.


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    #1427
    Kangoo Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭Kangoo Man


    barneystinson wrote: »
    Unless you've actually tried to do a particular job, such as that of the principal of a large underfunded school, or can validly profess to know what the job entails, I don't really see how you are in a position to comment on how much they're paid.

    I'd imagine its a very stressful job, with a lot of responsibility - I wouldn't want it if you offered me 100k.

    OECD report 2014 - Irish teachers are among the best paid in the world.

    "Using this measure, the salaries of Irish teachers at the top of the pay scale is given as the equivalent of €48,430, compared with an EU average of about €35,500 and an OECD average of €36,415"

    Trying to defend a €100,000+ salary for a principle teacher, proves just how out of touch the public sector in Ireland is.

    Teaching is a vocation in most countries, not a €100,000+ career ambition.


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    #1428
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Kangoo Man wrote: »
    OECD report 2014 - Irish teachers are among the best paid in the world.

    "Using this measure, the salaries of Irish teachers at the top of the pay scale is given as the equivalent of €48,430, compared with an EU average of about €35,500 and an OECD average of €36,415"

    Trying to defend a €100,000+ salary for a principle teacher, proves just how out of touch the public sector in Ireland is.

    Teaching is a vocation in most countries, not a €100,000+ career ambition.

    Link please, from what I remember that report is also full of holes.

    As for the principals, the number of them earning anything near 100k would be quite small. They are likely to have >900 pupils in a second-level school, first in the door, last to leave, coming back in the evenings and weekends for all school activities, HR manager, construction project manager, social worker, and many other roles, working 50-60 hours a week, well you can have the job if you want it, but I certainly wouldn't take it.


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    #1429
    barneystinson
    Registered Users Posts: 4,683 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    Kangoo Man wrote: »
    OECD report 2014 - Irish teachers are among the best paid in the world.

    "Using this measure, the salaries of Irish teachers at the top of the pay scale is given as the equivalent of €48,430, compared with an EU average of about €35,500 and an OECD average of €36,415"

    Trying to defend a €100,000+ salary for a principle teacher, proves just how out of touch the public sector in Ireland is.

    Teaching is a vocation in most countries, not a €100,000+ career ambition.

    It's PrincipAL.

    Principals aren't generally still teaching, certainly not the ones who are running schools big enough that they're being paid 100k.

    Have a look at the absolute quagmire of laws and regulations that a school has to comply with, and when you actually understand whats involved, tell us how much should a principal of a large school be paid.

    I have no problem with us paying our teachers well - if the profession doesn't pay well you won't attract/retain people of any calibre - would you like your kids/grandkids being taught by substandard teachers?


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    #1430
    Sheldons Brain
    Registered Users Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭Sheldons Brain


    Kangoo Man wrote: »
    OECD report 2014 - Irish teachers are among the best paid in the world.

    "Using this measure, the salaries of Irish teachers at the top of the pay scale is given as the equivalent of €48,430, compared with an EU average of about €35,500 and an OECD average of €36,415"

    Citing the Indo as if it were the OECD, the dishonest presentation of information suggests your haven't much of a case.
    Teaching is a vocation in most countries, not a €100,000+ career ambition.

    Good idea, get eejits to work as a "vocation" earning less than those they serve.

    I think the key part of the Indo article you cited was
    while Irish teachers are close to the top of international salary league, when compared with other graduates in the country they don't fare as well.
    The report shows that Irish teachers' pay as a proportion of "average graduate pay" is lower than the OECD average.
    Irish teachers receive 81pc of the salary of a similarly qualified graduate, compared with an OECD average of 85-92pc.

    i.e. relative to other Irish people, teachers earn less than other nation's teachers earn in comparison to their employees.
    This is the only relevant measure.


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    #1431
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Kangoo Man wrote: »
    OECD report 2014 - Irish teachers are among the best paid in the world.

    "Using this measure, the salaries of Irish teachers at the top of the pay scale is given as the equivalent of €48,430, compared with an EU average of about €35,500 and an OECD average of €36,415"

    Trying to defend a €100,000+ salary for a principle teacher, proves just how out of touch the public sector in Ireland is.

    Teaching is a vocation in most countries, not a €100,000+ career ambition.

    I'm not sure what this proves. Other than a willingness to use OECD data to compare salaries but not other figures such as P/T ratios ;) And such comparisons always ignore the cost of living - when I was PS I'd have happily taken the same salary as my UK counterpart, as long as I also got the NHS, equivalent local council services, proper free education for my kids and access to a decent public transport system.

    Are Irish teachers well paid relative to the OECD? Yes they are.

    Does the Irish education system need serious reform? Yes, it does.

    And the easiest way to save money in the education budget is to get rid of the smaller schools. According to DPER.....
    One-teacher schools have fewer than 12 pupils and two-teacher schools have between 12 and 49 pupils. There are currently 1,215 classroom teachers for the 18,239 pupils in these schools. This means that there is an average of one teacher for every 15 pupils as opposed to the average of one teacher to every 28 pupils for larger schools.

    857 schools have fewer than 60 pupils.

    The scale of schools in Ireland is small compared with many other countries e.g. just under half our primary schools have less than 100 students, 55% of our second level schools have less than 500 pupils.


    But do you seriously think the situation will be improved by paying people a subsistence wage and relying on the fact that it's a 'vocation' to draw in potential recruits?

    Because it seems to me that a lot of people won't be happy until PS workers are paid minimum wages and kept on them.


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    #1432
    sarumite
    Registered Users Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    Godge wrote: »
    Well just stating your belief is of less relevance, at least I dug a statistic out.

    I was actually sharing a viewpoint held by many. I thought it was obvious by the manner in which I phrased things, I do not necessarily know if their belief is valid since there can be underlying causative issue which may explain certain descrepencies. Throwing out a single statistic that offers no insight into a topic is pointless.


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    #1433
    The Muppet
    Registered Users Posts: 14,003 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    OMD wrote: »

    Why should the data include pension contributions for Public sector but not private sector? Private sector employee would have to pay substantially more to get the same benefits as public sector employee so if you were to include pension benefits the Public Sector premium would increase not decrease.
    Simple, Private sector pension payments are optional. They can opt out to increase their take home pay if they wish .

    Public sector pension payments are mandatory. They can not opt out .


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    #1434
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    The Muppet wrote: »
    Simple, Private sector pension payments are optional. They can opt out to increase their take home pay if they wish .

    Public sector pension payments are mandatory. They can not opt out .

    I would love to get my hands on my PS contributions (in the form of credits) and transfer them into a better performing fund. One way to reduce the public sector pension liability might be to let people port their pension contributions into funds outside the PS schemes. At the moment it's not an option.


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    #1435
    The Muppet
    Registered Users Posts: 14,003 ✭✭✭✭The Muppet


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I would love to get my hands on my PS contributions (in the form of credits) and transfer them into a better performing fund. One way to reduce the public sector pension liability might be to let people port their pension contributions into funds outside the PS schemes. At the moment it's not an option.


    How true. Can,t see that happening though as I'd imagine most ps workers would take the same course of action if they could .


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    #1436
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Geuze wrote: »
    Yes, correct.

    All PS took a minimum of two cuts to basic pay.

    Some took three pay cuts (HRA).

    Some took four paycuts (young teachers).

    Yes, cuts to basic pay were rare in the private sector. Cuts to jobs were not.

    I love the way you qualify your point with the words "basic pay". Does that include pension levy?
    Reality on this forum appears to be:

    Public Sector pay gets cut but person gets increments resulting in a net gain in pay - That is a pay cut.
    Private sector gets all increments stopped but no cut in pay resulting in no gain - That is no cut.

    Public sector have to pay more for pensions - That is a pay cut.
    Private sector have to pay more for pensions - That is no cut.

    Public sector starting salaries are cut - That is 4 cuts!!! (even though the person never actually had their pay cut at all)
    Private sector starting salaries cut - That is no cut.


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    #1437
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    The Muppet wrote: »
    How true. Can,t see that happening though as I'd imagine most ps workers would take the same course of action if they could .

    Proof that public sector workers are not more intelligent than private sector as some people here seem to believe.


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    #1438
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    OMD wrote: »
    Proof that public sector workers are not more intelligent than private sector as some people here seem to believe.

    Not really - there are plenty of high performing pension funds out there that generate a much better return than anything the PS is currently offering.

    I regularly get my superann statements and the statements from 'private' fund when I worked abroad.

    My 10 or so years in the private sector is worth roughly the same as my 12 or so years in the PS - I'd say my private pot is worth even more now because it's denominated in Sterling. I'd love to be able to port my contributions across to the private pot, or in to some US indexed fund.

    I don't think the government will ever do it because PS pensions are paid from current budgets and I don't think contributions are held in an 'account.'


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    #1439
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Not really - there are plenty of high performing pension funds out there that generate a much better return than anything the PS is currently offering.

    I regularly get my superann statements and the statements from 'private' fund when I worked abroad.

    My 10 or so years in the private sector is worth roughly the same as my 12 or so years in the PS - I'd say my private pot is worth even more now because it's denominated in Sterling. I'd love to be able to port my contributions across to the private pot, or in to some US indexed fund.

    I don't think the government will ever do it because PS pensions are paid from current budgets and I don't think contributions are held in an 'account.'

    How are you calculating the current value of your public sector pension?


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    #1440
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    OMD wrote: »
    How are you calculating the current value of your public sector pension?

    From my last superannuation statement


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    #1441
    OMD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    Jawgap wrote: »
    From my last superannuation statement

    But it is a final salary scheme. That information is not relevant.

    To estimate the value you need to estimate your final salary pension, work out the value of a fund you would need to give you that kind of annuity and then add the tax free lump sum.

    Remember though annuity rates are falling. It is impossible to know what the rates will be when you reach retirement age.


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