Proposed Public sector pay rises

sbkenn · 29-01-2015 6:51pm

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Increments happen for all PS employees.
Stay for 10 years, get 9 increments.
All at the cost of the taxpayer, once in you're a "jobs for life"!

Can't be libellous if factual!

Increments should reflect how well you do your job and how well the organisation is doing. Bonuses should be for short-term exceeding your responsibilities, not to supplement your income for doing your job or to get around statuary pay limitations.
CS and PS grossly underestimate just how much job insecurity plays on the minds of private sector people. In 30 years, I have been through 6 facility closures and left shortly before another three. There is almost no employment in my sector now, it has gone to China and India. A close froend and business owner, re-mortgaged his house, and cut back his own salary to coax his business through the worst of the recession. He layed off all his workers, and re-hired some of them on an as-required basis. He is only now, able to start investing again, in R&D, having been only doing work which paid quickly.
The private sector is what supports the country, except for the little bit that a few state bodies do bring in. Low wages, and low allowances mean the those people can only afford the basics. There are some exceptions ! With many, there is always money for drink of fags, even though the kids are hungry, but an increase in take-home pay at the bottom would fuel the economy, but taking that back in water charges would immediately wipe that out again.
As far as the guy calling bull**** on my PS and CS work ethic comment, I have seen it, my ex-wife did it, and about 20 other people I know have said it about their own employment. I know people who dropped out of private-sector employment purely for the job security and lack of hard-work expectations. I have seen educated younger people go in there, and within 6 months, all enthusiasm has been squeezed out of them, and they cease to even try to improve the system. Then, as they climb the ladder, they get so wrapped up in their own importance that they simply demand compliance from the very people they are supposed to be benefiting.
Last but not least, the law is there to serve the public interest. If it is invoked for any other reason, then it is abuse of power, and beyond their authority.

noodler · 29-01-2015 7:02pm

Godge wrote: »

Do you know why the C&AG hasn't updated its 2008 report on the actuarial cost of public service pensions? A guess? No, well here is the answer. The actuarial costs are likely to have dropped by a third and that isn't the story that people want to hear. Why? Because the assumptions in the 2008 report for the time up to 2015 have proved to be completely wrong.

http://www.per.gov.ie/public-service-pensions-accrued-liability/

The Government have done it and it results in a fall from 116bn to 98bn.

CSO are required to publish this regularly now.

How were the assumptions in the C&AG's report incorrect at the time?

What sort of conspiracy are you suggesting?

Jawgap · 29-01-2015 7:21pm

OMD wrote: »

Not sure you know what a balance sheet is. Assets must equal liabilities on a balance sheet.

What?

Assets don't have to equal liabilities, they do have to equal liabilities and equity.

The idea is to show how the company / organisation paid for the assets it owns. That's why it's called a balance sheet.

Jawgap · 29-01-2015 7:27pm

OMD wrote: »

Yeah right. That explains the 99.9%.
Now if you can prove that, fair enough, otherwise I shall call it bull****

You think just because it isn't measured somewhere it didn't happen.

PS workplaces are just like every other workplace - people get boll1cked, counselled, advised, mentored, warned and encouraged to pick up their game all the time.

Are you really suggesting that every time, when I worked in the PS, I warned someone about their performance I should've sat down and written a note so it could be logged somewhere?

chopper6 · 29-01-2015 8:49pm

fliball123 wrote: »

Except those parameters have changed as in we live a lot longer now meaning we have to pay more to the retiree than was envisaged and the parameters will continue to change. so now we will have 2 people getting their pensions instead of one

Been listening to Eddie Hobbes again?

Still,if we're all living a lot longer the health system must be doing something right.

Godge · 29-01-2015 9:15pm

noodler wrote: »

http://www.per.gov.ie/public-service-pensions-accrued-liability/

The Government have done it and it results in a fall from 116bn to 98bn.

CSO are required to publish this regularly now.

How were the assumptions in the C&AG's report incorrect at the time?

What sort of conspiracy are you suggesting?

For a start they assumed inflation plus 2% for changes in salary rates. The opposite was the case as salary rates were drastically cut.

They also assumed 5% a year increase in numbers, instead they have been cut by 10%

Edit: The new study assumes pay increases from 2016 of 3.6% to 3.9% per annum for public servants. There will be a few around here not happy with that.

Start with those.

noodler · 29-01-2015 10:54pm

Godge wrote: »

For a start they assumed inflation plus 2% for changes in salary rates. The opposite was the case as salary rates were drastically cut.

They also assumed 5% a year increase in numbers, instead they have been cut by 10%

Edit: The new study assumes pay increases from 2016 of 3.6% to 3.9% per annum for public servants. There will be a few around here not happy with that.

Start with those.

So????

Economic growth of 3% had been forecast in 2008 by the ESRI and government, hardly a news flash that people didn't see how be it was going to get.

Godge · 29-01-2015 11:01pm

noodler wrote: »

So????

Economic growth of 3% had been forecast in 2008 by the ESRI and government, hardly a news flash that people didn't see how be it was going to get.

The lesson for the actuaries is that if you are going around shouting that the sky is falling down because pensions will cost too much and it turns out you were way off in your assumptions, don't expect people to pay much heed second time around.

noodler · 29-01-2015 11:18pm

Godge wrote: »

The lesson for the actuaries is that if you are going around shouting that the sky is falling down because pensions will cost too much and it turns out you were way off in your assumptions, don't expect people to pay much heed second time around.

You have got to be having a laugh.

Every developed country in the world records their public service pension liability as a contingent on their balance sheets.

We are backwards in that we don't do it Every year. You can check the IMF's fiscal transparency assessment of Ireland in 2013 for that.

Does it not seem striking to you that even with public sector pay cuts, cuts to pension s of existing public sector worker, reduced headcount etc and more conservative updated assumptions about inflation and pay increases that the liability has only dropped 18bn?

The figure is worse in other countries, but every country measures it. Describing it as "actuaries arguing the sky is going to fall in" shows a fairly limited understanding of the issue. It is something that needs to be recorded and monitored and not dismissed by you because it scares you or brings undue attention on the public sector.

Either a very childish post Godge or one showing a serious lack of understanding.

Kangoo Man · 30-01-2015 11:11am

creedp wrote: »

I recently read about management positions in Lidl/Aldi with a starting salary of someting around €65k rising to over €90k in 4 years. Now I'm interested in does that mean that this private sector job has an incremental salary scale which automatically awards increments subject to meeting agreed performance targets or do Lidl award 38% pay increases over 4 years to their staff?

If Aldi/Lidl management jobs are so "cushy", why isn't there a queue of public servants trying to get in them, maybe it's because...

You work a minimum of 60 hours per week
You are responsible for hundreds of staff
You manage multiple shops
You are responsible for millions of turnover per week
You have massive sales targets which have to be met or you're sacked

The same kind of responsibility in the public sector would pay a lot more than €65k - €90k and you'd only have to work 35 hours per week with 6 weeks holidays and a nice pension as well...

Farmer Pudsey · 30-01-2015 11:29am

chopper6 wrote: »

An absolute pack of lies..everything you said,you've just made up.

Link please

Jawgap · 30-01-2015 11:53am

Kangoo Man wrote: »

If Aldi/Lidl management jobs are so "cushy", why isn't there a queue of public servants trying to get in them, maybe it's because...

You work a minimum of 60 hours per week
You are responsible for hundreds of staff
You manage multiple shops
You are responsible for millions of turnover per week
You have massive sales targets which have to be met or you're sacked

The same kind of responsibility in the public sector would pay a lot more than €65k - €90k and you'd only have to work 35 hours per week with 6 weeks holidays and a nice pension as well...

You manage 3-4 shops......and given the staffing levels in your typical Aldi, that hardly equates to 'hundreds of staff' - more like dozens.

Oh look - you're starting salary is €61K "that rises in stages to €92,000 after four years, plus a fully expensed Audi A4." -

'rises in stages' = private sector

'increments' = public sector

A Garda Inspector starts at €55k (if you can pass the exams, get promoted etc) and tops out after 6 years at €61k - infinitely more responsibility than a supermarket manager, and no expensed A4.

However you do get to work in the open air and meet the finest elements present in Irish society........

And to add....

A captain in the Army gets €52k pa - if he's an EOD officer he gets about €85 per day when he's on duty - I know the poor Aldi guy if he makes a cock up gets sacked - if the EOD officer makes a cock up, he gets dead. The State, however, does provide a natty suit for him to wear while working, and he does get to blow sh1t up occasionally.

And a Commandant earns marginally more than the starting salary Aldi are offering, and only after 10 years service. I don't know the asset value of 3 or 4 Aldi stores, but I doubt it exceeds the asset value of the equipment in the squadrons etc they command.

noodler · 30-01-2015 12:22pm

Jawgap wrote: »

You manage 3-4 shops......and given the staffing levels in your typical Aldi, that hardly equates to 'hundreds of staff' - more like dozens.

Oh look - you're starting salary is €61K "that rises in stages to €92,000 after four years, plus a fully expensed Audi A4." -

'rises in stages' = private sector

'increments' = public sector

A Garda Inspector starts at €55k (if you can pass the exams, get promoted etc) and tops out after 6 years at €61k - infinitely more responsibility than a supermarket manager, and no expensed A4.

However you do get to work in the open air and meet the finest elements present in Irish society........

And to add....

A captain in the Army gets €52k pa - if he's an EOD officer he gets about €85 per day when he's on duty - I know the poor Aldi guy if he makes a cock up gets sacked - if the EOD officer makes a cock up, he gets dead. The State, however, does provide a natty suit for him to wear while working, and he does get to blow sh1t up occasionally.

And a Commandant earns marginally more than the starting salary Aldi are offering, and only after 10 years service. I don't know the asset value of 3 or 4 Aldi stores, but I doubt it exceeds the asset value of the equipment in the squadrons etc they command.

You do well to pick out the minority jobs in the PS there which are dangerous but, and I admit I never did it, everything I have heard constantly about working for Aldi/Lidl since 2008 was that you will be worked to the bone and you can expect hours well above the minimum stated.

Jawgap · 30-01-2015 12:40pm

noodler wrote: »

You do well to pick out the minority jobs in the PS there which are dangerous but, and I admit I never did it, everything I have heard constantly about working for Aldi/Lidl since 2008 was that you will be worked to the bone and you can expect hours well above the minimum stated.

I love the way people constantly shift the argument around when the wrongness of their statements is pointed out.

The poster in question 'said'......

Kangoo Man wrote: »

..........

The same kind of responsibility in the public sector would pay a lot more than €65k - €90k and you'd only have to work 35 hours per week with 6 weeks holidays and a nice pension as well...

He didn't parse or qualify the statement.

And i don't need to 'do well' to pick out 'minority' jobs - it's the easiest thing in the world to identify those parts of the PS where there is / isn't danger and where responsibility is greater than anything Aldi can ever offer - because I realise the PS is a diverse group.

Other people seem content to define both in general terms and in respect of the pay dished out to its most senior members - then belly ache when it's pointed out that it doesn't match up to their generalisations.

Of course it's easier to argue if you can perpetuate the stereotype of the lazy, overpaid public servant and not have to deal with the EOD officers, the paramedics, the firefighters, the SAR pilots and even the ATCOs.

noodler · 30-01-2015 12:56pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Of course it's easier to argue if you can perpetuate the stereotype of the lazy, overpaid public servant and not have to deal with the EOD officers, the paramedics, the firefighters, the SAR pilots and even the ATCOs.

I love it when people put words in my mouth.

Cheers.

Regardless, I wouldn't go down the route of implying the ALDI/LIDL jobs are soft touches, from what I hear, you are worked to the bone for the money particularly given the longer hours as standard.

chopper6 · 30-01-2015 12:58pm

noodler wrote: »

Regardless, I wouldn't go down the route of implying the ALDI/LIDL jobs are soft touches, from what I hear, you are worked to the bone for the money particularly given the longer hours as standard.

Quite unlike nurses of course.

Jawgap · 30-01-2015 1:16pm

noodler wrote: »

I love it when people put words in my mouth.

Cheers.

Regardless, I wouldn't go down the route of implying the ALDI/LIDL jobs are soft touches, from what I hear, you are worked to the bone for the money particularly given the longer hours as standard.

Yeah, I wasn't putting words in your mouth......

.......I wasn't implying Aldi / Lidl jobs are soft touches

......simply pointing out that there are jobs in the PS that require levels of commitment and / or responsibility that are comparable or even exceed anything a supermarket could demand.

.....and there are jobs in the PS where, there are times, people wish they could chuck it in and go for a nice job in a supermarket - where you're indoors, people aren't shooting at you or you aren't trying to find your way across the Wicklow mountains in winter at night on a recce patrol as a prelude to a live fire exercise - all so you can have the soft touch of a holiday somewhere warm, like Syria or Sierra Leone........

noodler · 30-01-2015 1:20pm

chopper6 wrote: »

Quite unlike nurses of course.

Nurses can work more hours than they are paid to I'd say alright.

I do too but I'd say nurses even more so.

creedp · 30-01-2015 1:29pm

Kangoo Man wrote: »

If Aldi/Lidl management jobs are so "cushy", why isn't there a queue of public servants trying to get in them, maybe it's because...

You work a minimum of 60 hours per week
You are responsible for hundreds of staff
You manage multiple shops
You are responsible for millions of turnover per week
You have massive sales targets which have to be met or you're sacked

The same kind of responsibility in the public sector would pay a lot more than €65k - €90k and you'd only have to work 35 hours per week with 6 weeks holidays and a nice pension as well...

You see this is the problem .. I did not in any way make assumptions about the Lidl job but you seem to think its OK to make the above baseless assumptions about what an equivalent PS job involves. Fair play to you for having this detailed knowledge at your finger tips and especially your uncanny ability to summarise the vast variety of PS management roles into the above.

Public1 · 30-01-2015 2:16pm

I dont work in a Co.Co. , but I do work in a large hospital in the IT Dept. And I know generalizations about the public sector are quite popular here , but let me just address some of your points in relation to my workplace.

"A little, and at significant cost. What is their net balance ?
Many people have taken pay cuts, many people lost their jobs with little or no compensation."

I have had 10 years of cuts and increments and my take home pay now is the same as it was in 2007 .

"CS and PS have their pensions ... guaranteed pensions. My meager pension fund lost 30% of it's value almost overnight, in 2007. I had worked for nearly 10 years without any increment. "

I took a lower salary than I would have got if I stayed in the private sector because of the pension and job security. Noone in my Dept. believes the job security will still be there in 5 years and at least half would stop paying into the pension fund if permitted as they dont believe the pension will be there when they retire.

"I have also worked 70 hour weeks with nothing paid above my basic salary. That was quite common in my industry. I had 20 days/annum for holidays, and 3 uncertified sick days, which I only used if I was sick ... ditto for my colleagues."

I rarely work more than 40 hrs which is 5 over my contract . I dont get paid overtime.
I have had 1 uncertified day in 10 years and the average for my Dept. (HR Stats) is 1.2 per year.

"In a Co.Co. office one Friday, there was a mass exodus just before 3PM. That is quite common although the office stays open until 5. Offices don't open to the public until 10 ?, and generally close at 4. It is not as though there are too many "customers" for them to carry out administrative stuff during the day.
Very few CS or PS people realy know what a HARD day's work is, and would probably go on strike if they were asked to do it, even with o/t pay. Then, if they got o/t for a while and it was cut, they would go on strike over loss of earnings."

We dont get paid overtime , that went about 5 years ago and even then it was rarely given except for specific projects. However MOST in my Dept would do between 1 and 10 hours per week unpaid. There are 2 union members in my Dept. out of 20 (Im not) so we cant go on strike even if we wanted to .

"Senior CS and PS, get a good salary, plus a LOT of un-receipted allowances. Try collecting your receipts and only submit a claim for what was actually necessary and spent. One person I know, drove from Dublin to Letterkenny to deliver a document ... which wasn't even particularly urgent, then claimed mileage and subsistence for the trip."

I dont get allowances and have on occasion used my personal car for work and had to pay parking out of my own pocket. Have also travelled on public transport for work purposes, again funded by myself although this wouldnt happen often.

"End of rant ... for now"

End of response to rant .

Kangoo Man · 30-01-2015 2:22pm

creedp wrote: »

You see this is the problem .. I did not in any way make assumptions about the Lidl job but you seem to think its OK to make the above baseless assumptions about what an equivalent PS job involves. Fair play to you for having this detailed knowledge at your finger tips and especially your uncanny ability to summarise the vast variety of PS management roles into the above.

In fairness, you're right. Nobody in the public service works under the conditions of 'Poor Auld Aldi Man'

creedp · 30-01-2015 2:31pm

Kangoo Man wrote: »

In fairness, you're right. Nobody in the public service works under the conditions of 'Poor Auld Aldi Man'

Again fair play to you for having this unequivocal knowledge .. a genius in your own time! Give youself a performance related bonus and sure throw in a performance based promotion while you're at it .. cos your bloody worth it!!

Kangoo Man · 30-01-2015 3:21pm

creedp wrote: »

Again fair play to you for having this unequivocal knowledge .. a genius in your own time! Give youself a performance related bonus and sure throw in a performance based promotion while you're at it .. cos your bloody worth it!!

Is that the best you can do, personal attacks?

Why are you attacking the person and not the ball, is it because you are trying to defend the indefensible and have no other option but to resort to personal attacks?

According to the Irish Time 25 August 2015, average weekly pay in the public sector is €919 per week, while average pay in the private sector is €622 per week.

Can you explain this disparity, without getting personal...

Jawgap · 30-01-2015 3:27pm

Kangoo Man wrote: »

In fairness, you're right. Nobody in the public service works under the conditions of 'Poor Auld Aldi Man'

Yeah - these lads don't look like they're working at all - and even if they are sure don't the conditions look delightful......

10933771_764510176965214_7013740920974805156_n.jpg?oh=e909d7528ce8b9c1836892263316a81b&oe=55210840

10933771_764510176965214_7013740920974805156_n.jpg?oh=e909d7528ce8b9c1836892263316a81b&oe=55210840

"Cadets conducting endurance physical training exercises which are designed to focus the cadet's leadership skills in challenging conditions."

Salary about €29k - rising to about €38k if they pass out and gain a commission.

And in fairness, if the maintain the required level of performance, do their fair share of stints on patrols at sea and volunteer for a few missions overseas in about 12 to 15 years, they'll earn about 80% of Aldi guy's starting salary, but they will get to drive an OPV!

Kangoo Man · 30-01-2015 3:36pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Yeah - these lads don't look like they're working at all - and even if they are sure don't the conditions look delightful.....

"Cadets conducting endurance physical training exercises which are designed to focus the cadet's leadership skills in challenging conditions."

Salary about €29k - rising to about €38k if they pass out and gain a commission.

And in fairness, if the maintain the required level of performance, do their fair share of stints on patrols at sea and volunteer for a few missions overseas in about 12 to 15 years, they'll earn about 80% of Aldi guy's starting salary, but they will get to drive an OPV!

In my view the army were always underpaid in Ireland, so you'll have no disagreement with me there. There is a wide range of jobs in the public service, some are very well paid and some aren't. I read last year that 371 secondary teachers earned over €100k pa, even after the cuts, with 5 months off per year, that sounds like a well paid job to me...

chopper6 · 30-01-2015 3:43pm

Kangoo Man wrote: »

In fairness, you're right. Nobody in the public service works under the conditions of 'Poor Auld Aldi Man'

here's another bunch watching the clock til they get thier pension

chopper6 · 30-01-2015 3:45pm

Kangoo Man wrote: »

. I read last year that 371 secondary teachers earned over €100k pa, even after the cuts, with 5 months off per year, that sounds like a well paid job to me...

Go apply for one of them then.

Jawgap · 30-01-2015 3:46pm

Kangoo Man wrote: »

Is that the best you can do, personal attacks?

Why are you attacking the person and not the ball, is it because you are trying to defend the indefensible and have no other option but to resort to personal attacks?

According to the Irish Time 25 August 2015, average weekly pay in the public sector is €919 per week, while average pay in the private sector is €622 per week.

Can you explain this disparity, without getting personal...

Jaysus - while you have that edition of the IT, you wouldn't check the lotto numbers would you?

Also are you sure it was the 25th of the month and it wasn't the story that referenced the CSO report which was published on the 26th?

Interesting you chose to focus on the figures, but not the commentary about skewing that went with them

Jawgap · 30-01-2015 3:47pm

Kangoo Man wrote: »

In my view the army were always underpaid in Ireland, so you'll have no disagreement with me there. There is a wide range of jobs in the public service, some are very well paid and some aren't. I read last year that 371 secondary teachers earned over €100k pa, even after the cuts, with 5 months off per year, that sounds like a well paid job to me...

Linky McLinky?

Jawgap · 30-01-2015 3:51pm

Kangoo Man wrote: »

In my view the army were always underpaid in Ireland, so you'll have no disagreement with me there. There is a wide range of jobs in the public service, some are very well paid and some aren't. I read last year that 371 secondary teachers earned over €100k pa, even after the cuts, with 5 months off per year, that sounds like a well paid job to me...

Good of you to acknowledge the several thousand public servants who are underpaid - what about their senior commanders? Is the CoS underpaid or overpaid?

Also what about Guards (for example the lads and lassies up above standing around in their romper suits)?

ED nurses and doctors?

Or do you still believe

Kangoo Man wrote: »

In fairness, you're right. Nobody in the public service works under the conditions of 'Poor Auld Aldi Man'

Kangoo Man wrote: »

If Aldi/Lidl management jobs are so "cushy", why isn't there a queue of public servants trying to get in them, maybe it's because...

You work a minimum of 60 hours per week
You are responsible for hundreds of staff
You manage multiple shops
You are responsible for millions of turnover per week
You have massive sales targets which have to be met or you're sacked

The same kind of responsibility in the public sector would pay a lot more than €65k - €90k and you'd only have to work 35 hours per week with 6 weeks holidays and a nice pension as well...

Proposed Public sector pay rises

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