Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

westtip · 09-09-2011 8:34pm

I think the best advice of that Guard above would hav been to send them Hertz.

pigtown · 09-09-2011 8:35pm

highlydebased wrote: »

There's no direct Limerick-Waterford service any day. It involves changing at Limk Junction regardless. Even if there was such a train- there is no train to Rosslare from Waterford anymore!

I used the wrong word here. I knew there was no direct service but on the IR website the route they told me to take was via Dublin. Does this mean there isn't even a connecting service along Limerick Junction- Waterford line? If it does then there really is no justification for CIE to exist in it's present setup. And I say CIE because as the parent company they have ultimate responsibility.

highlydebased · 11-09-2011 11:30am

pigtown wrote: »

I used the wrong word here. I knew there was no direct service but on the IR website the route they told me to take was via Dublin. Does this mean there isn't even a connecting service along Limerick Junction- Waterford line? If it does then there really is no justification for CIE to exist in it's present setup. And I say CIE because as the parent company they have ultimate responsibility.

Well, if you leave Limerick at 0755, 1255 or 1800 you can connect at Limk Junction to the Waterford train. About a 20 minute wait there though. Otherwise you will need to go via Kildare/Heuston

westtip · 13-09-2011 4:25pm

Anyway to get back on track so to say - an excellent letter in the Western People today

Greenway, not a railway, will bring in tourists
Your editorial on August 9thlast headlining the success of the Great Western Greenway (GWG) was optimistic and good. The same editorial continued to support the idea of a railway rather than a greenway on the northern section of the Western Rail Corridor (WRC) from Claremorris to Collooney saying it would be “real shame” for it to be taken out of commission. With no passengers since 1963, or freight since the 1970s, and lots of encroachment on the line, it is effectively already out of commission. You said the campaign for a greenway on this section of the WRC was “a distraction”. I don’t agree.

The McCann report (2005) into the proposed re-opening of the WRC identified Claremorris - Collooney as difficult to justify on grounds of engineering issues, cost and demographics. The report was the basis for government policy on the WRC. No commitment was made by the last government nor this one to re-open the Claremorris - Collooney line. We need realism in expectations; especially today.

A greenway on this route would deliver jobs today. It would protect the alignment of the railway preventing further encroachment in the event that a railway ever becomes feasible.

Proven economic benefits of greenways, mean there is a cost/benefit argument to say a greenway in such close proximity of Knock Airport would succeed. Imagine this: Tourists landing in Knock, renting a bike in Charlestown cycling toward Sligo, to connect with a Sligo North Leitrim Greenway – an idea being considered on the Sligo North Leitrim railway or toward Claremorris and then on a new greenway from Claremorris to Westport to connect with the Great Western Greenway? Tired Hungry Tourists.

People come to the West of Ireland because of what it offers for them to do when they get here – their destination choice is not based on whether they can get a train from Athenry to Charlestown to get the flight home.

The success of the Great Western Greenway is clear; it should be the catalyst for a greenway network in the West. In the UK, cycling tourism has boomed since the commitment to a national network of interconnected greenways. A survey Failte Ireland conducted in 2006 showed how far we lagged behind in this area; we are playing catch up with other countries; competitors.

Sligo-Mayo Greenway campaign is not “a distraction” it’s a realistic idea to deliver leisure/tourism infrastructure cost effectively. It’s not just tourism: Children and adults living here deserve safe routes to cycle and walk without fear.

Campaigning to reinstate a railway not used by passengers since 1963 which would require huge investment and annual subventions, is more of “a distraction” in current economic circumstances. A 70 km greenway for minimal investment would show immediate benefits. Just ask some hotels along the route: I have. The response is usually: Yes please, when? Hoteliers know the value of Tired Hungry Tourists. Sligo Mayo Greenway is a “no brainer”, let’s support it!

Brendan Quinn

Sligo-Mayo Greenway Campaign

www.sligomayogreenway.com

Facebook: Sligomayogreenwaycampaign

All the arguments we have seen on these boards before but good to see the Western People who have been bastions of support for the Western Rail corridor allowing a different opinion to be expressed.

dowlingm · 13-09-2011 7:27pm

It would be nice if someone could get some pro bono engineering drawings done of how a greenway could be accommodated on the Westport-Claremorris line. A person could cycle the greenway one way and get the train back in the other, plus it would burst the objection that greenway is incompatible with reinstating rail. If the greenway ran from Achill to Claremorris the notion of extending it towards Collooney would be hard to resist, surely.

Jim Martin · 14-09-2011 12:47pm

Everything is changing so fast in the world with recession which increasingly looks like turning into a depression, that everything possible must be done to retain & build new railways to contribute to a sustainable world. Increasingly more people are finding that they can no longer afford to run a car so let' s stop this nonsense of 'greenways'!

teol · 14-09-2011 12:54pm

Jim Martin wrote: »

Everything is changing so fast in the world with recession which increasingly looks like turning into a depression, that everything possible must be done to retain & build new railways to contribute to a sustainable world. Increasingly more people are finding that they can no longer afford to run a car so let' s stop this nonsense of 'greenways'!

I highlighted "sustainable" in your post. The WRC is not sustainable. It is contributing to higher rail fares and higher taxes on everyone.

corktina · 14-09-2011 1:03pm

Jim Martin wrote: »

Everything is changing so fast in the world with recession which increasingly looks like turning into a depression, that everything possible must be done to retain & build new railways to contribute to a sustainable world. Increasingly more people are finding that they can no longer afford to run a car so let' s stop this nonsense of 'greenways'!

people who cant afford a car might appreciate a cycleway surely.,

Oh and people who cant afford cars almost certainly wont be able to afford trains either, seeing as they are more expensive to travel on than cars are.

Oh and what makes you think a train is more sustainable than a bike or sustainable AT ALL.

There, thats throughly rubbished that post I think...

Jim Martin · 14-09-2011 2:07pm

corktina wrote: »

people who cant afford a car might appreciate a cycleway surely.,

Oh and people who cant afford cars almost certainly wont be able to afford trains either, seeing as they are more expensive to travel on than cars are.

Oh and what makes you think a train is more sustainable than a bike or sustainable AT ALL.

There, thats throughly rubbished that post I think...

What isn't sustainable today - could possibly be tomorrow - how can we be certain of anything?

corktina · 14-09-2011 2:11pm

well one thing IS certain. We dont have any money. There is NO money to rebuild or indeed BUILD railway lines and some of those we have now are not going to last many more months.

IE have squandered their chance to build a network able to compete with the new Motorways, did they not see it coming?

westtip · 14-09-2011 2:23pm

Jim Martin wrote: »

Everything is changing so fast in the world with recession which increasingly looks like turning into a depression, that everything possible must be done to retain & build new railways to contribute to a sustainable world. Increasingly more people are finding that they can no longer afford to run a car so let' s stop this nonsense of 'greenways'!

Jim I obviously don't share your views - or perhaps I do - in fact I do agree with you about building "new" railways - which is why I am opposed to to rebuilding old ones along alignments that were relevant to the C19th Ireland. the "new" western rail corridor from Athenry to ennis is failing because it isn't new - its old. had it been built on a new alignment that included for example Shannon Airport, and had swung west towards Galway to avoid the Athenry stoppover it may have worked. Building new railways is important - where they are needed, for example in the one moderately sized city we have in this country we do need to address certain transport issues with new railways. The points about not running a car so therefore we must all have expensive trains to jump on, is hardly valid for rural west of ireland - yes we need decent and reliable public transport but with the level of investment in better quality roads that has been achieved the investment should go into a three letter word: the bus, actually thats two three letter words, but lets not fall out about it. Its not "nonsense" to talk about greenways in fact its nonsense to talke about the railway being reinstated - at least the greenway will make a net positive contribution to the economy - something we need to enable people to carry on living in the west of ireland.

dowlingm · 14-09-2011 9:36pm

Jim Martin wrote: »

Everything is changing so fast in the world with recession which increasingly looks like turning into a depression, that everything possible must be done to retain & build new railways to contribute to a sustainable world. Increasingly more people are finding that they can no longer afford to run a car so let' s stop this nonsense of 'greenways'!

You live in a bit of a fact free zone there Jim. Have you not been following the discussion in respect of coexistence between the two modes?

westtip · 15-09-2011 11:54pm

Jim Martin wrote: »

Everything is changing so fast in the world with recession which increasingly looks like turning into a depression, that everything possible must be done to retain & build new railways to contribute to a sustainable world. Increasingly more people are finding that they can no longer afford to run a car so let' s stop this nonsense of 'greenways'!

jim i meant to pick on this sustainable thing; there is a tendency for supporters of unsustainable lines like the WRC to claim it is "greener and more sustainable", consider this - the energy required to build the rail line - concrete sleepers the steel and all that goes into it, and then a few trains a day weighing god knows what in terms of tonnage guzzling diesel and carrying 14 passengers, what is carbon footprint of each passenger compared to say putting them in small/midsize bus, the kind used in many rural transport sytems - drinking a lot less diesel per person. We have to have roads - buses are much more flexible in terms of routes and getting people on and off nearer their homes, so pray tell me which is the more sustainable, a very expensive piece of infrastructure and underutilised train service or more efficient bus service. Moral high ground on sustainability actually does not belong to the inefficient rural train brigade in my opinion.

Aard · 16-09-2011 3:07am

westtip wrote: »

Moral high ground on sustainability actually does not belong to the inefficient rural train brigade in my opinion.

This.

(Not directed at anyone in particular: If people wanted 'sustainability', they'd move to Galway or another urban centre. Somewhere over 317 inhabitants kind of thing. Instead it's less hassle for 'sustainability' to be laid on their doorsteps -- quite literally in some cases.)

trail man · 16-09-2011 6:52am

A lot of nostalgia is attached to disused railway lines and saying goodbye can be difficult but we here in west limerick on the great southern trail campaigned to retain our line but to no avail ,we now realise that we have the best of both worlds in a greenway for example we have all the brigdes,viaducts,etc still in place but have moved on to the next level and have a fantastic amenity in place where people from all over the world can avail of and bring much needed cash into the towns and villages of west limerick.And sure who knows sometime in the future with the bed of the line still in place it might see a train again..but having an overgrown weed patch while waiting for miracles to happen serves no purpose..A GREENWAY IS THE RIGHT WAY..

DWCommuter · 16-09-2011 12:05pm

trail man wrote: »

A lot of nostalgia is attached to disused railway lines and saying goodbye can be difficult but we here in west limerick on the great southern trail campaigned to retain our line but to no avail ,we now realise that we have the best of both worlds in a greenway for example we have all the brigdes,viaducts,etc still in place but have moved on to the next level and have a fantastic amenity in place where people from all over the world can avail of and bring much needed cash into the towns and villages of west limerick.And sure who knows sometime in the future with the bed of the line still in place it might see a train again..but having an overgrown weed patch while waiting for miracles to happen serves no purpose..A GREENWAY IS THE RIGHT WAY..

And you have a fantastic amenity down there Trail man, that ensures the line will never be forgotten.

corktina · 16-09-2011 12:19pm

Yes thats a good point. You dont have to have rails and trains to preserve a railway Line, any more than Stonhenge needs Wode and Druids. Often with a preserved line anyway, you dont get a sense of what is was really like with modern buildings replacing long-gone originals and of course with a modern in-use-still line you see only a ghost of what it once was.

DWCommuter · 16-09-2011 1:09pm

corktina wrote: »

Yes thats a good point. You dont have to have rails and trains to preserve a railway Line, any more than Stonhenge needs Wode and Druids. Often with a preserved line anyway, you dont get a sense of what is was really like with modern buildings replacing long-gone originals and of course with a modern in-use-still line you see only a ghost of what it once was.

Exactly.

I alluded to this point earlier in the thread. Its very disappointing to see rail campaigners in the west trying to block this. They should be embracing it. With the financial reality already exposed, it is blatantly obvious what they need to do. Support the Greenway, protect and preserve the alignment, incorporate the railway history into the greenway experience and you have a fabulous amenity for cyclists, walkers and railway enthusiasts.

Judgement Day · 16-09-2011 1:17pm

trail man wrote: »

A lot of nostalgia is attached to disused railway lines and saying goodbye can be difficult but we here in west limerick on the great southern trail campaigned to retain our line but to no avail ,we now realise that we have the best of both worlds in a greenway for example we have all the brigdes,viaducts,etc still in place but have moved on to the next level and have a fantastic amenity in place where people from all over the world can avail of and bring much needed cash into the towns and villages of west limerick.And sure who knows sometime in the future with the bed of the line still in place it might see a train again..but having an overgrown weed patch while waiting for miracles to happen serves no purpose..A GREENWAY IS THE RIGHT WAY..

I fail to see how going from an operational railway to a partially constructed, little used footpath is progress? If you ask me the Great Southern Trail set the precedent for future closures and the Waterford/Rosslare Greenway will be along any day soon - to be followed by the Limerick/Ballybrophy Greenway, Limerick Junction/Waterford Greenway and the Mallow/Tralee Greenway......:rolleyes: Chicken Dinner anybody?....Ban welcomed as I'm too busy with RWC to be bothered tormenting C+T posters & Mods for a few weeks.

-Chris- · 16-09-2011 2:22pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I fail to see how going from an operational railway to a partially constructed, little used footpath is progress? If you ask me the Great Southern Trail set the precedent for future closures and the Waterford/Rosslare Greenway will be along any day soon - to be followed by the Limerick/Ballybrophy Greenway, Limerick Junction/Waterford Greenway and the Mallow/Tralee Greenway......:rolleyes: Chicken Dinner anybody?....Ban welcomed as I'm too busy with RWC to be bothered tormenting C+T posters & Mods for a few weeks.

Excellent, since you're so looking forward to the ban, enjoy 30 days of freedom from the C&T forum.

Judgement Day banned for 30 days for flagrant and deliberate breach of the Charter.

trail man · 16-09-2011 11:04pm

GREAT SOUTHERN TRAIL-SLÍ AN MHÓRDHEISCIRT
The GST has been the recipient of a prize at the 5th European Greenways Ceremony on the 8 th of September 2011 which took place in Épinal, the Vosges Region, (France).

Eight greenways from France, Ireland, UK, Italy and Spain were awarded as reference of best practices in Europe. The Award ceremony was held in the Vosges city of Épinal(France), during the 15th Rencontres des Départements & Régions Cyclables de France.
This 5th European Greenways Award (EGA) has been organized by the European Greenways Association (EGWA) in cooperation with the association Départements & Régions Cyclables (DRC) de France and the Conseil Général des Vosges, with the support of the DG of Enterprise and Industry of the European Commissionand Council of Europe / European Landscape Convention, the Ministère de l’Écologie, du Développement Durable, des Transports et du Logement(France) and the Walloon Region(Belgium) .

The European Greenways Awards (EGA) contribute to the promotion of best practices in greenways. It encourages the qualitative development of these facilities opened to the general public in Europe, defined as “Communication routes reserved exclusively for non-motorised journeys. These routes should meet satisfactory standards of width, gradient, and surface condition to ensure that they are both user-friendly and low-risk for users of all abilities. In this respect, canal towpaths and disused railway lines are a highly suitable resource for the development of greenways” Greenways are known with different names depending on the country: Voies Vertes, Vias Verdes, RAVEL, Ecopistas, Radwege auf alten Bahntrassen, railtrails, etc.

The European Greenways Awards (EGA) were created in 2003 and have since been heldevery two years. In this2011 edition the jury have honouredprojects in two categories: “Excellence” and “ Exemplary Initiatives”.The EGWA has been delighted to receive 20 exceptional candidates from 10 countries.
The international Jury for the 5th EGA met in Brussels on the 28 th of June to select 3 winners for each of the 2 prize categories. However, given the high quality of the presented candidacies and after careful consideration, the members of the Jury chose to add two awards:one "Special Prize of the Jury" and a second third price in the category of "Exemplary Initiatives”. The awarded candidacies are:

« Excellence » Category:

1stPrize: Green Avenue – Avenue Vert e (France) / Département de Seine-Maritime
For the excellent quality of the Greenway as a whole and its appeal to tourists, and its future plans for international connection.

2nd Prize: Parco costiero del Ponente Ligure (Italy) / Area 24 SpA
For the integration of an excellent Greenway in a very attractive and territorially complex setting on the Mediterranean coast.

3rd Prize: Worcester Connect2 Greenway (UK) / Sustrans
For the excellence of its conception, design and technical execution as a Greenway, especially its magnificent bridge, which enhances the daily mobility of all kinds of users.
Special Prize of the Jury:
Great Southern Trail, GST (Ireland) / GST Ltd
In recognition of the efforts made for the last 20 years by the volunteer enthusiasts of the GST who, with their tireless endeavour, have succeeded in making reality the conversion of a dissused railway line into a Greenway to be enjoyed by all.

“Exemplary Initiatives” Category

1st Prize: Discover the Secrets of Girona Greenways (Spain) / Consorci Víes Verdes de Girona
For an innovative action with major impact on the outreach and promotion of the Girona Greenways as a resource for discovering the cultural and natural value of the region.

2ndPrize: Padiham Greenway Creative Engagement Program (UK) / Mid Pennine Arts
For the use of Greenway and art as a tool for social integration and cohesion in a difficult socio-economic environment.

3rd Prize: Sentiero della Bonifica(Italy) / Provincia de Arezzo
For the development of a cycling and walking tourism product in Tuscany that allows users to enjoy nature, the art of bygone days, and human contact, taking advantage of a historic work of hydraulic engineering.

3rdPrize: Hotel and restaurant railway wagons on La Jara Greenway - (Spain) / Mancomunidad de la Vía Verde de la Jara
For reusing old railway coaches placed on the Greenway itself as facilities for visitors in an isolated and depressed rural area.

The organization wishes to thank all the candidates for the quality of their work and the effort done to provide very helpful information to the jury.

For more information: Mercedes Muñoz- European Greenways Association (EGWA)
Pictures available on: www.europeangreenwaysaward.org

dowlingm · 17-09-2011 5:28pm

trail man wrote: »

3rdPrize: Hotel and restaurant railway wagons on La Jara Greenway - (Spain) / Mancomunidad de la Vía Verde de la Jara
For reusing old railway coaches placed on the Greenway itself as facilities for visitors in an isolated and depressed rural area.

Quick! Someone get up to Dundalk rustage sidings with a low loader and ship them south and west! (might need some mould cleaner)

dermo88 · 18-09-2011 6:03am

Finally, I may as well admit it after all these years, I have a deep contempt for Connaught based lobbyists, Mayo in particular. My views towards them are extremely bigoted and right wing. I make no apologies whatsoever for that.

Its for several reasons. Its a sense of a "Beal Bocht" mentality, or that "Dublin gets this, Dublin gets that, and Mayo gets nothing". Thats my perception, and it has tainted my view towards the West and its politicians since I was a child and watched a mad Monsignor build an Airport in a bog.

I have been banned one forum which was very popular once upon a time due to a former inability to restrain my language, and attack in a vitriolic fashion. Again, I make no apologies. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity is a permanent condition.

DWCommuter

I alluded to this point earlier in the thread. Its very disappointing to see rail campaigners in the west trying to block this.

It takes years for a railway project to come to fruition, especially when we consider that it took 5 years to get something like Cork-Midleton done from start to finish. So when closures do take place, and resources are allocated inappropriately, it does cause people to get upset.

Don't get me wrong, if the West had the population densities in place to make this project remotely viable, then I'd be all for it.

Neworder79 · 19-09-2011 10:19am

dermo88 wrote: »

Finally, I may as well admit it after all these years, I have a deep contempt for Connaught based lobbyists, Mayo in particular. My views towards them are extremely bigoted and right wing. I make no apologies whatsoever for that.

Its for several reasons. Its a sense of a "Beal Bocht" mentality, or that "Dublin gets this, Dublin gets that, and Mayo gets nothing". Thats my perception, and it has tainted my view towards the West and its politicians since I was a child and watched a mad Monsignor build an Airport in a bog.

I have been banned one forum which was very popular once upon a time due to a former inability to restrain my language, and attack in a vitriolic fashion. Again, I make no apologies. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity is a permanent condition.

At least you've been upfront unlike many who add inflammatory regional jibes to stifle useful infrastructure debate, or just for kicks. However admitting your argument is based around bigotry and broad brush stereotyping of everyone west of the Shannon is a bit pathetic. I say that as someone who like you hates the beal bocht approach and speaks out against many of these campaigns.

The problem is twofold. Many old-school western activists/counsellors /busybodies relied for too long on the "Beal Bocht" mentality, from a time when the region really was in a bad way. Arm twisting and cajoling was the only way to get any form progress in the region. And it must be said that for a long time that was the way our political system worked.

On the other hand most of us have moved on and there are many intelligent and practical people, including younger counsellors and TDs, who have real business or social case to make for investment in viable projects. That is a normal part of any democracy and functioning state, North, South, East or West. But now (thanks to the likes of the Shannon and WOT lobby) genuine debate on any such projects in the West is viewed through the prism of "Beal Bocht" by many like yourself outside the region.

I moved to Mayo about 5 years ago and the town I live in is vibrant and full of people with good ideas and a vision for their county as a good place to live, work and visit. Contrary to the stereotypes I see a big do it your self, get up and go spirit in the county that I haven't seen elsewhere. Many excellent projects developed in recent years by identifying a niche or idea, researching and building a business case and sourcing funding without loud campaigns. Like the Great Western Greenway and which will pay back the meager capital costs in spades longterm through the numbers of visitors it's attracting, local health and other social benefits.

Like many others Westerners on this forum I've have spoke out against the WRC campaign. Pushing an at best peripheral project like the WRC to the top of the agenda in the boom years was a serious miscalculation which only served to camouflage and damage the real pressing transport defects in the region such as bringing the basic road network up to a safe standard. To continue to push this campaign now, with the with the country still at the mercy of the IMF and financial markets is shameful and damaging the case for worthwhile investment in the region.

westtip · 19-09-2011 10:32am

dermo88 wrote: »

Finally, I may as well admit it after all these years, I have a deep contempt for Connaught based lobbyists, Mayo in particular. My views towards them are extremely bigoted and right wing. I make no apologies whatsoever for that.

Its for several reasons. Its a sense of a "Beal Bocht" mentality, or that "Dublin gets this, Dublin gets that, and Mayo gets nothing". Thats my perception, and it has tainted my view towards the West and its politicians since I was a child and watched a mad Monsignor build an Airport in a bog.

I have been banned one forum which was very popular once upon a time due to a former inability to restrain my language, and attack in a vitriolic fashion. Again, I make no apologies. Ignorance can be cured, stupidity is a permanent condition.

DWCommuter

I alluded to this point earlier in the thread. Its very disappointing to see rail campaigners in the west trying to block this.

It takes years for a railway project to come to fruition, especially when we consider that it took 5 years to get something like Cork-Midleton done from start to finish. So when closures do take place, and resources are allocated inappropriately, it does cause people to get upset.

Don't get me wrong, if the West had the population densities in place to make this project remotely viable, then I'd be all for it.

An interesting post dermo, I can't go along with the criticism of Knock Airport because it is a great facility for the west, it probably is in the wrong place but its well managed and well used facility; in many respects it was visionary, what I dislike is the hi-jacking of the vision of M.Horan that any idea for the west is given the same credibility, which is certainly what happened with the WRC, many times I have heard comments lik - look what Knock Aport has done for the west - just imagine what the WRC would do. One project really did look forward a century the other has constantly looked backwards a century.

The tone of your post though is quite right, there is too much begrudgery in the west and that is what we have to fight against to get the mindset right. I drove back to sligo from Shannon Airport late last night, I had to use Shannon for timings reasons, In driving rain and feeling tired I thought about those poor students last year or was it 2009, time has habit of passing unnoticed, who died on some of the dreadful bends and blind summits on that road. The N17/18 has robbed families of loved ones, it has put peoples lives into misery through injury, the cost of the pain this road has given is immeasurable, I started dozing at the wheel at about 2.30 am this morning and stopped for coffee in Tuam. Its this experience that maddens me about the folly and energy that has gone into the WRC campaign, what on earth is it all about - It is the urgent need to upgrade the N17/18 that - in the national interest - everyone on Galway, Mayo Sligo, Clare, Roscommon, Donegal should be campaigning for. Campaigning for this route to be safe and not a continuing on going death trap is what the West should be baracking on about - and its got nothing to with whats going on around dublin.

Neworder79 · 19-09-2011 10:59am

westtip wrote: »

+100

eastwest · 19-09-2011 12:19pm

The greatest untruth around the idea of a rail link from galway to Sligo is the myth that such a link would be good for tourism. This thinking belongs back in the days of steam, when visitors arrived by train for two weeks, met by a team of forelock-tugging porters with carts who hauled their bags to the local hotel while the toffs strolled along, tossing pennies to the grubby and barefoot children. Tourism, believe it or not, has moved on a bit since the age of the train.
A rail service from Galway to Sligo, in so far as it would have any impact on tourist numbers, would simply serve to whisk tourists between both centres, with no benefit to the towns en route. Why would a German couple on a week-long tour of Ireland get off in Claremorris, or Collooney? They would do what you or I would do, if we were on holidays in another country, and look up briefly from our paper as we looked out the window at these small towns.
We need to stop dreaming and bury the notion that this rail link will ever be built, or that it would have any benefit to the tourist industry in these towns. Cyclists and walkers, by their nature, would not cover the entire route in one go, and would have to stop to eat and to sleep. It's basic common sense, something lacking fromn the arguments in favour of the rail link to date.
There was only one James Horan. He brought an airport to Connaught, and it has been of some benefit to the area (despite helping to hasten the demise of Sligo and Galway airports). The emergence of another would-be James Horan who would like to leave another infrastructural legacy would not be in the best interests of this community. Better by far to build something sustainable; let us bury this railway nonsense for once and for all, and move on.

dowlingm · 20-09-2011 3:57am

the problem is there's an individual in situ who thinks he IS Msgr Horan mark 2...

Neworder79 · 20-09-2011 9:58am

He may think so but no one else does. TBH I don't think most people in Mayo would know who he was if you asked them.

If one of the local papers would get off their arses and instead of regurgitating press releases do a proper on the ground survey, asking if people in the region would rather the Atlantic Corridore and other road projects completed or WRC I'm sure the result would put an end to the debate.

eastwest · 20-09-2011 10:23am

Neworder79 wrote: »

He may think so but no one else does. TBH I don't think most people in Mayo would know who he was if you asked them.

If one of the local papers would get off their arses and instead of regurgitating press releases do a proper on the ground survey, asking if people in the region would rather the Atlantic Corridore and other road projects completed or WRC I'm sure the result would put an end to the debate.

It's all about politics at the end of the day. Politicians will promise what they think people want, based on what they perceive as popular opinion. If they consider that the voters want to see a rail line, that's what they will promise to deliver, regardless of the economic arguments or indeed the best interests of the population. I would hazard a guess that most or all of the politicians who favour the WRC haven't really considered the detail, they are just playing to the gallery.
There is no doubt though that the insertion of a large clerical ego into the mix doesn't help the process of logical analysis of the issue. To an extent, we live in a backward-looking part of the country where many people take the word of a priest as "gospel", even if he's talking from the opposite end from where he eats his boiled egg.

westtip · 20-09-2011 10:43am

eastwest wrote: »

It's all about politics at the end of the day. Politicians will promise what they think people want, based on what they perceive as popular opinion. If they consider that the voters want to see a rail line, that's what they will promise to deliver, regardless of the economic arguments or indeed the best interests of the population. I would hazard a guess that most or all of the politicians who favour the WRC haven't really considered the detail, they are just playing to the gallery.
There is no doubt though that the insertion of a large clerical ego into the mix doesn't help the process of logical analysis of the issue. To an extent, we live in a backward-looking part of the country where many people take the word of a priest as "gospel", even if he's talking from the opposite end from where he eats his boiled egg.

eastwest this is all very true which is why it is so important for the greenway arguments to swell up from public opinion - letters like the one in the Western Recently and others they have received, some published some not begin to push the idea to the forefront, the constant blogging about the idea, the pushing of the idea to the politicians - the councillor from the west who recently entered the debate to say the greenway woudl be a mistake was welcoming because it got more debate going, the tireless growth of the campaign on facebook and other viral venues like here. The fact an octogenerian priest has driven the WOT campaing plays right into the Greenway hands - anyone under the age of 40 could not give a tuppeny F**k what the clergy have to say, and lets face it Enda kenny is clear what he thinks about church and state. The nature of the WOT campaign is all about yesterdays Ireland, the Greenway campaign is about the future of Ireland. Be positive and think like this and the greenway is a shoe in in terms of capturing the mindset of our politicians, many have already come this way, I know because I have taken the trouble to talk to many of them on a one on one basis.

DWCommuter · 28-09-2011 7:45pm

While an Irish Greenway wins an award, some of the local "experts" in the west of Ireland still can't accept or grasp the potential that Claremorris - Colooney has.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mayos-greenway-receives-ec-award-522306.html

foggy_lad · 28-09-2011 7:49pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

While an Irish Greenway wins an award, some of the local "experts" in the west of Ireland still can't accept or grasp the potential that Claremorris - Colooney has.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mayos-greenway-receives-ec-award-522306.html

Just saw two of the western rail fake intercity trains in Limerick, one had rail cart 2701 and I think the other had 2703, they look awful painted the same as the 22000s! Fake intercity trains for a fake intercity line! There was three people on the one that pulled in at 6.45pm!

dowlingm · 29-09-2011 8:23pm

Their speed is appropriate to the line speed. When anywhere between Athenry and Limerick Check allows 76mph running, bring on the 22Ks.

westtip · 04-10-2011 1:41pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

While an Irish Greenway wins an award, some of the local "experts" in the west of Ireland still can't accept or grasp the potential that Claremorris - Colooney has.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mayos-greenway-receives-ec-award-522306.html

DW its only a matter of time, of that I am pretty sure now.:D

highlydebased · 12-10-2011 11:42am

Oh look! I never wudda guessed....

Numbers using re-opened western rail link still low
By Gordon Deegan
Wednesday, October 12, 2011
PASSENGER numbers using the first phase of the €106 million Western Rail Corridor (WRC) are still quite low.
A Freedom of Information Act document shows that customers using the Ennis-Athenry route halved in its first 12 months.

The line — which connects Limerick to Galway — was re-opened at the end of March last year after years of lobbying from groups in the west. However, figures confirm the number of passengers in April of this year only reached 2,800, compared to 7,000 for the corresponding period in 2010.

Irish Rail chief executive Dick Fearn said the 7,000 figure "reflected the immediate novelty impact of the re-opening of the line".

He said "the real local demand by people who use the service on the Ennis- Athenry section for their day-to-day commuting has begun to settle at a number between 2,000 and 3,000 per period".

He added: "Unfortunately, the numbers on the central section of the route between Ennis and Athenry are quite low, Gort being the only community of any size on this section."

Mr Fearn said he hoped timetable improvements would encourage more people to use the route.

Corporate communications manager with Irish Rail Barry Kenny said yesterday the new services on the route with improved marketing resulted in the numbers on the Ennis-Athenry route increasing to just under 4,500 journeys between July 18-August 14.

Read more: http://irishexaminer.com/ireland/numbers-using-re-opened-western-rail-link-still-low-170341.html#ixzz1aYxxxnxf

westtip · 12-10-2011 12:15pm

:rolleyes: Build it and they will come! West on Track will no doubt try to rubbish this story in the media over the coming few weeks.

eastwest · 12-10-2011 12:36pm

What has to be remembered is that decisions about infrastructure projects like this, or the proposed northern section towards Collooney, are not necessarily made in the interests of the common good. These decisions are made by politicians, whose sole interests lie in getting re-elected. Therefore, money will be spent where it delivers most votes, regardless of what is right or wrong and regardless of the cost to future generations.

The silence from government circles in recent months around the greenway issue in Sligo/Mayo points to a reluctance to come down on either side of the debate, in order to retain the votes of both camps for the presidential election and the next local and European elections. Indeed, if they can keep both sides living in hope for years, then that is what they will do. The pro-rail lobby is still strong, albeit misinformed about either the possibility of the rail link being re-opened or the financial logic of the section that has been completed. They simply don't care about the costs, they just want to see a railway line. Add to that a clerical influence that wants to show that the church can deliver big government-funded projects in the same way as Knock airport was delivered in the past, and you have a potent mix that scares the pants off politicians.

There will only be movement on the greenway when three ducks line up. Firstly, the general public need to understand that the railway is not coming; not now, not ever. The government won't tell them this, for reasons stated above, so it's up to the greenway campaigners to do it. Secondly, the greenway lobby has to be seen to be big enough to be able to influence the election of a sitting government TD or MEP, and to show that they will vote as a bloc to do that. Thirdly, the key people behind the WOT campaign have to have a "road to Damascus" conversion and to realise that the greenway can preserve the route until such time as a railway makes sense.

A greenway can bring jobs now, and can improve the quality of life for people living along its length, particularly if is built as part of a national strategy to link several major centres of population. Doing nothing, however, is the best option for anyone who looks at this from a political point of view. That includes the clergy by the way; as long as the greenway isn't built, they (like the politicians) can continue to promise a railway.

foggy_lad · 12-10-2011 12:57pm

Corporate communications manager with Irish Rail Barry Kenny said yesterday the new services on the route with improved marketing resulted in the numbers on the Ennis-Athenry route increasing to just under 4,500 journeys between July 18-August 14.

So this increase had nothing to do with schools being closed all through the summer? Or the influx of foreign language students travelling between the two cities?

westtip · 12-10-2011 2:50pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

So this increase had nothing to do with schools being closed all through the summer? Or the influx of foreign language students travelling between the two cities?

Exactly - remember the thousands upon thousands of tourists who were going to use this line; it seems they all got on their bikes and headed for Newport! East West has summed it up well the whole thrust of the railway campaign now is stop the greenway, because they know what a success it will be. The truth will soon be out there - after the Pres election the spending cuts will be announced and the red pen will be put through many projects - the WRC we will be told is being put on the long finger - and the WOT campaign will say they understand it but they have secured a committment for it in the future....yeh like when .... next century. In the meantime the encroachment will continue the weeds will continue to grow and the hoteliers in Kiltimagn Tubercurry Foxford, Charlestown etc will bemoan the fact that one project that could deliver jobs or secure jobs in their businesses will be denied them because of a false promise that will never be delivered and will always be made.

foggy_lad · 12-10-2011 2:58pm

July 18-August 14

These dates may be significant as they may correspond with classes for language schools and might also be the peak holiday season.

westtip · 13-10-2011 10:16am

foggy_lad wrote: »

These dates may be significant as they may correspond with classes for language schools and might also be the peak holiday season.

Indeed and it was a footnote to the article almost. yes 4,500 in July August and "between 2000 and 3000" in the core commuter months is abject failure. If we are generous and say 2750 for ten months of yer and 4000 two months of the year - it will have "settled" into about 35000 passenger journies per annum on the through route. The business case if I recall was 100,000 and the previous debate on this issue a few months back showed about 50,000 journies being made so it has actually got worse.

Here is a quote from the previous Minister which I am sure is being dusted down and reread in the department:

Noel Dempsey – Minister of Transport. In a Speech at the opening of phase one (Ennis-Athenry) of the Western Rail Corridor in March 2011:

“However, we all have to face the reality that the current funding environment is very difficult and it will not be possible to progress all the projects in Transport 21 in accordance with the ambitious timescale envisioned at its launch.”

“I cannot overstate the critical importance of local support for Phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor in promoting the development of further phases of the Corridor. Now that the dream of reopening Phase 1 of the Western Rail Corridor has been realised, the challenge is to ensure its success.”

Ahem....Are you enjoying the pension Noel????

Not to mention this quote: Don Cunningham of Irish Rail – in an Email of 6th October 2010 to the Department of Transport released under the FOI request:

“As regards passenger numbers on phase 1 of the WRC the average number per period (4 weeks duration) since the commencement of the service is 5166. If the first period is excluded this drops to 4,800. This translates into an annual figure of between 62,400 and 67,158 which is well below the 100,000 trip assumed in the business case”

And what are we down to now? 2,800 per month in commuter months and 4,500 in peak holiday month... oh dear oh dear WOT do we do now about this "vital piece of infrastructure"

LaFlammeRouge · 16-10-2011 4:24pm

westtip wrote: »

And what are we down to now? 2,800 per month in commuter months and 4,500 in peak holiday month... oh dear oh dear WOT do we do now about this "vital piece of infrastructure"

Ouch. And the 10euro promotional fare is doing nothing to lift numbers

. How much is Leo Varadkar going to cut from Irish Rail's budget this year? How much is the Dept of Welfare going to cut in the free travel scheme?

westtip · 17-10-2011 12:40pm

Indeedie, thinking about it, settling at about 35,000 passenger journies per annum on the ennis athenry route - which covers the "intercity" through passengers, to get to the desired business case numbers, the volome of passengers has to grow by just under 200%....ahem in an economy that is shrinking, losing population through emigration, and in an area of the country in which car dependency is increasing. Of course what we haven't seen is just what proportion of the passenger numbers are freebie social welfare tickets, if we say 20% we are down to under 30,000 fare paying passenger journies per annum. The FG/Labour programme for Govt had the extension north of Athenry down as one to undergo cost/benefit analysis.

Isn't it about time Government got off the pot on this one? and tell WOT the unsavoury truth. I reckon what we might see in the new NDP is the foreever painful holding operation on this one, sure it will happen but we just can't say when. WOT will accept their medicine in the "national interest" and make a press release along the lines of "whilst we are disappointed we are delighted that the WRC remains on the long term strategic objective and we will continue to campaign for this vital piece of infrastucture which now we have assurances from Government that it will happen eventually we are pleased to secure this committment etc etc"

The members of various councils and WOT hangers on will continue to attend western intercounty railway development committees - with the main item on the agenda always being spite: The greenway must be stopped at all costs even though we know the railway will never happen....and the second item being expenses payable to the Western intercounty railway committee.

Nothing will happen because doing nothing allows the government to promise everything - but actually deliver on nothing. Such is the nature of our democratic system.

serfboard · 19-10-2011 12:12am

westtip wrote: »

western intercounty railway development committees - with the main item on the agenda always being spite: The greenway must be stopped at all costs even though we know the railway will never happen....and the second item being expenses payable to the Western intercounty railway committee.

I reckon you've got the agenda the wrong way around there, westtip. I'd say it's expenses first and foremost, followed by Any Other Business!

Judgement Day · 19-10-2011 10:12am

Judging from the passenger figures it won't be long before the IRRS xxxxx 'special' is traversing the Ennis/Athenry section. :rolleyes:

westtip · 19-10-2011 10:33am

Judgement Day wrote: »

Judging from the passenger figures it won't be long before the IRRS xxxxx 'special' is traversing the Ennis/Athenry section. :rolleyes:

JD indeedie, I wonder how many coaches they will have on it just had a look at the Examiner website and searched on WRC - this is a quote from the news item in March last year when the line was re-opened - its a kind of "what happened next" quote

Examiner article re the re-opening of the Ennis Athenry line March 30th 2010:

Two-carriage commuter trains with a capacity for 120 people will initially be used and depending on demand, extra carriages can be added.

Iarnród Éireann business development manager Jim Gallivan said: "We can increase it to a four piece which would give us a capacity of 220. We will see how demand picks up.

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfkfojidmhgb/rss2/#ixzz1bDbfjMCQ

Partizan · 19-10-2011 10:49am

Judgement Day wrote: »

Judging from the passenger figures it won't be long before the IRRS xxxxx 'special' is traversing the Ennis/Athenry section. :rolleyes:

corktina · 19-10-2011 11:36am

westtip wrote: »

JD indeedie, I wonder how many coaches they will have on it just had a look at the Examiner website and searched on WRC - this is a quote from the news item in March last year when the line was re-opened - its a kind of "what happened next" quote

what a conundrum for IE. Do they improve the timetable to try and boost usage or do they slash the service because its losing (much more than expected) money?

I suspect they wont have much of a choice to make come the next budget.

westtip · 19-10-2011 2:42pm

corktina wrote: »

what a conundrum for IE. Do they improve the timetable to try and boost usage or do they slash the service because its losing (much more than expected) money?

I suspect they wont have much of a choice to make come the next budget.

Improve the timetable, Corky you are having a laugh (I know your are BTW!!) - six trains up and down a day already on this branch line (4 on sunday). 12 trains a day, monday to saturday and 8 on sunday = (12x6) +8 per week = 80 a week; per 4 week period = 320 and how many passengers did IE say in that FOI about 2800 per 4 weekly perod means we are now down to less than 9 passengers per train on the through route that the route has "settled into" Even in the really busy section Irish Rail identified in July August - 4500 passengers = 14 passengers per train on average. There must be trains running empty at some point in the day. Its actually now quite pathetic to hear any more arguments in favour of this fantasy project.

doomed we're doomed captain mannering (mainwaring - edit Corky yes indeed thank you stupid boy westtip).

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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