M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Limerick74 · 13-11-2020 6:45pm

Public consultation starts next Thursday https://www.live95fm.ie/news/live95-news/virtual-public-consultation-to-be-held-for-m20-route-options/

marno21 · 14-11-2020 4:44pm

Limerick74 wrote: »

Public consultation starts next Thursday https://www.live95fm.ie/news/live95-news/virtual-public-consultation-to-be-held-for-m20-route-options/

Great stuff. Ahead of time too.

spacetweek · 14-11-2020 10:28pm

They may improve the rail options too, possibly with a new section of line.

pajoguy · 14-11-2020 10:30pm

marno21 wrote: »

Great stuff. Ahead of time too.

Will route options be outlined at this stage?

marno21 · 14-11-2020 11:33pm

pajoguy wrote: »

Will route options be outlined at this stage?

Yes. Originally scheduled for December.

Chris_5339762 · 15-11-2020 2:48pm

Will be very interesting to see if the route selection from a few years ago is basically copied.

Hibernicis · 16-11-2020 1:24am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Will be very interesting to see if the route selection from a few years ago is basically copied.

It will indeed, bearing in mind that the Study Area has been expanded this time around. Fig 2 here shows the changes (blue cross hatch). The most significant change is the eastward expansion at the northern end. At the southern end the main change is an expansion by a considerable distance towards Cork city centre. And while these changes were presumably intended to facilitate the inclusion of the rail option in the study, it will be interesting to see if the change has any other implications.

Chris_5339762 · 16-11-2020 10:10pm

The southern end, I think, isn't largely off what the old plans had. That involved a start just before the Blarney junction. Now, its a shame the southern end is as it is... it confirms they aren't trying to use the same TEN-T Adare bypass "Its a road to Foynes" trick to deliver the eastern side of the Cork North Ring Road.

It means for sure that for years we'll have the titanically stupid setup where M20 traffic has to potter through Ballyvolane and Blackpool to get to the M8 and N25. Its a terrible oversight.

niloc1951 · 16-11-2020 10:21pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The southern end, I think, isn't largely off what the old plans had. That involved a start just before the Blarney junction. Now, its a shame the southern end is as it is... it confirms they aren't trying to use the same TEN-T Adare bypass "Its a road to Foynes" trick to deliver the eastern side of the Cork North Ring Road.

It means for sure that for years we'll have the titanically stupid setup where M20 traffic has to potter through Ballyvolane and Blackpool to get to the M8 and N25. Its a terrible oversight.

That R635 (North Ring Road) between the Old Youghal Road junction and the Ballyhooly Road junction has deteriorated to a dirt track due to neglect. A person would think it wasn't part of any future planned connecting route.

Cork Trucker · 16-11-2020 10:24pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

That R635 (North Ring Road) between the Old Youghal Road junction and the Ballyhooly Road junction has deteriorated to a dirt track due to neglect. A person would think it wasn't part of any future planned connecting route.

It was recently resurfaced

niloc1951 · 17-11-2020 10:46am

Cork Trucker wrote: »

It was recently resurfaced

:):), 'twas loooong overdue.

Cork Trucker · 17-11-2020 10:52am

niloc1951 wrote: »

:):), 'twas loooong overdue.

We might see the next resurfacing after the Northern Ring Road and M20 are done

hans aus dtschl · 17-11-2020 12:42pm

Cork Trucker wrote: »

It was recently resurfaced

I didn't know this.
I might start using it again: I normally use Banduff road.

Cork Trucker · 17-11-2020 12:55pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I didn't know this.
I might start using it again: I normally use Banduff road.

From the crossroads on the Ballyhooly road right up to the tinkers cross junction. Was done bar a small section of it, I didn’t take notice as to whether it was completed however. The Banduff Road is ok for now also, but there is construction traffic on it at the moment

Heartbreak Hank · 19-11-2020 1:06pm

Consultation is live:

https://www.pinpointcloud.co.uk/nm20virtualconsultation/

https://corklimerick.ie/

marno21 · 19-11-2020 1:23pm

PDF: https://www.pinpointcloud.co.uk/nm20virtualconsultation/Resources/html/banners.pdf

Green + amber please. The 2010 M20 routing is quite sensible imo. It reuses the Croom BP, New Mallow Road and also uses some extra wide land reservation near Buttevant.

Should they decide to reuse the 2010 corridor, there is a lot of work done especially on the southern part. This could be incorporated into the new project and used to accelerate it.

Junctions at Croom (R516 - already there), O'Rourkes Cross (R518), R515 west of Charleville, Ballyhea (old N20), Buttevant (R581), Mallow (N72/N73), Mallow South, and around Rathduff make sense. I presume a MSA will be incorporated into the project.

cgcsb · 19-11-2020 1:29pm

They haven't stated clearly whether both one of the rail and one of the road options will be implemented. I expect this is so the rail option can be fudged with an 'improved service' that'll be delivered as part of another project.

marno21 · 19-11-2020 1:32pm

cgcsb wrote: »

They haven't stated clearly whether both one of the rail and one of the road options will be implemented. I expect this is so the rail option can be fudged with an 'improved service' that'll be delivered as part of another project.

I would imagine a motorway and improved rail service between Cork and Limerick via Limerick Junction.

cgcsb · 19-11-2020 1:40pm

marno21 wrote: »

I would imagine a motorway and improved rail service between Cork and Limerick via Limerick Junction.

Yeah I guess, just hope the rail improvements aren't fudged into the never never.

Isambard · 19-11-2020 2:01pm

shame they can't spell Buttevant.

cgcsb · 19-11-2020 3:57pm

Isambard wrote: »

shame they can't spell Buttevant.

Invariably with these reports, there'll be a typo, no matter how hard someone reads and re-reads it. :pac:

Cork Trucker · 19-11-2020 4:00pm

Isambard wrote: »

shame they can't spell Buttevant.

Argh, I’d say half the country be calling it ‘Buttervant’ even while looking at it spelt as Buttevant

marno21 · 19-11-2020 4:04pm

Isambard wrote: »

shame they can't spell Buttevant.

Where is it misspelled ?

Quite a few people in North Cork call it Buttervant so a misspelling is still an improvement.

rounders · 19-11-2020 4:41pm

cgcsb wrote: »

They haven't stated clearly whether both one of the rail and one of the road options will be implemented. I expect this is so the rail option can be fudged with an 'improved service' that'll be delivered as part of another project.

Looks like it's a either or situation. According to the diagram they will compare the two options after route selection and pick between road and rail

https://corklimerick.ie/what-next/

rounders · 19-11-2020 4:59pm

Also, interesting question on the feedback form about ebikes. Asks if the route was safe for cycling and you had a ebike would you travel further.

Took me a while to find the feedback form. It's on the top right if anyone else is looking for it

Cookiemunster · 19-11-2020 4:59pm

rounders wrote: »

Looks like it's a either or situation. According to the diagram they will compare the two options after route selection and pick between road and rail

https://corklimerick.ie/what-next/

They'll pick the road IMO. Double tracking from Limerick Junction into Limerick is part of the LSMATs plan. That and some track changes at the Junction will allow direct Cork to Limerick trains without having to build any new alignments.

riddlinrussell · 19-11-2020 5:11pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

They'll pick the road IMO. Double tracking from Limerick Junction into Limerick is part of the LSMATs plan. That and some track changes at the Junction will allow direct Cork to Limerick trains without having to build any new alignments.

A brand new alignment is an interesting thought experiment though, it would be the first 'true' new railway line in Ireland in a very long time.

mydiscworld · 19-11-2020 5:13pm

Hopefully they learn from the issues whch arose in 2010 and minimise the potential for appeals to ABP/High Court

Reputable Rog · 19-11-2020 5:24pm

rounders wrote: »

Looks like it's a either or situation. According to the diagram they will compare the two options after route selection and pick between road and rail

https://corklimerick.ie/what-next/

Rail whilst a lovely idea makes no sense over road, the vast majority of journeys are not City Centre to City Centre, so it’s all well and good when you get to Colbert and want to go Clonlara or Caherdavin etc.

marno21 · 19-11-2020 5:39pm

mydiscworld wrote: »

Hopefully they learn from the issues whch arose in 2010 and minimise the potential for appeals to ABP/High Court

The route option for south of the 2010 split north of Buttevant is identical (+ the offline option south of Mallow which will be discarded). If they pick that route, include a Buttevant junction and go forth with 2 separate north and south section they could have the southern element at ABP quite quickly as a lot of work was done on it in 2010

cgcsb · 19-11-2020 5:46pm

rounders wrote: »

Looks like it's a either or situation. According to the diagram they will compare the two options after route selection and pick between road and rail

https://corklimerick.ie/what-next/

Ah I see. As expected tipping the cap at public transport and climate action but not really doing anything, they're hardly going to not select the motorway option so a frivolous waste of ink talking about rail when there's no intention there. I suppose if LMATS and improvements to intercity rail are made it will be resolved outside of the M20 project.

steeler j · 19-11-2020 5:57pm

A question if someone can help ,was the route already selected in 2010 ?

Limerick74 · 19-11-2020 5:58pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Ah I see. As expected tipping the cap at public transport and climate action but not really doing anything, they're hardly going to not select the motorway option so a frivolous waste of ink talking about rail when there's no intention there. I suppose if LMATS and improvements to intercity rail are made it will be resolved outside of the M20 project.

There is an updated graphic in the virtual room

cgcsb · 19-11-2020 5:59pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

Rail whilst a lovely idea makes no sense over road, the vast majority of journeys are not City Centre to City Centre, so it’s all well and good when you get to Colbert and want to go Clonlara or Caherdavin etc.

Ideally it would have been a dual road-rail solution. I haven't seen the traffic modelling, but it's generally the case that local journeys outnumber inter-city journeys by some magnitude. Given that Ireland 2040 calls for compact growth in City Centres, a motorway seems counter-intuitive.

Reputable Rog · 19-11-2020 6:19pm

marno21 wrote: »

The route option for south of the 2010 split north of Buttevant is identical (+ the offline option south of Mallow which will be discarded). If they pick that route, include a Buttevant junction and go forth with 2 separate north and south section they could have the southern element at ABP quite quickly as a lot of work was done on it in 2010

It’s all going as one application to ABP and one construction contract.

Chris_5339762 · 19-11-2020 9:28pm

steeler j wrote: »

A question if someone can help ,was the route already selected in 2010 ?

Yes. The route was selected and the scheme went to ABP but was pulled by the government as they could not afford the CPOs at the time.

Everyone thinks this was a dreadful decision but they wouldn't have been able to afford to build it anyway, and we'd probably have had to come back to square 1 and do the new route selection ANYWAY.

With regard to the routing, can I be selfish and want the Navy/Plum/Teal routes as they cut off corners.

In reality though I reckon the one closest to the 2010 plans will be picked. But what I would be interested to see are the old "1996 Buttevant bypass" plans, for interests sake.

Chris_5339762 · 19-11-2020 9:29pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

It’s all going as one application to ABP and one construction contract.

We all thought the M3 would be the biggest roads contract in Irish history but it would be nice to have the M20 as the biggest. 80km of new motorway at once ANYWHERE in Europe is impressive thesedays. But don't look at China.

marno21 · 19-11-2020 9:33pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yes. The route was selected and the scheme went to ABP but was pulled by the government as they could not afford the CPOs at the time.

Everyone thinks this was a dreadful decision but they wouldn't have been able to afford to build it anyway, and we'd probably have had to come back to square 1 and do the new route selection ANYWAY.

With regard to the routing, can I be selfish and want the Navy/Plum/Teal routes as they cut off corners.

In reality though I reckon the one closest to the 2010 plans will be picked. But what I would be interested to see are the old "1996 Buttevant bypass" plans, for interests sake.

The Navy/Plum/Teal would probably cost the price of a North Ring Road extra given the terrain involved south of Mallow and the existing earthworks already done etc. For minimal benefit.

I think the 2010 route south of Buttevant and north of there something reasonably resembling it including the online dualling of the Croom BP.

Reusing the existing roadbeds of the Croom BP, the area at Velvetstown north of Buttevant and the New Mallow Road is 25km of online upgrades. That's a very nice chunk of cost savings.

martiin · 19-11-2020 9:46pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yes. The route was selected and the scheme went to ABP but was pulled by the government as they could not afford the CPOs at the time.

Everyone thinks this was a dreadful decision but they wouldn't have been able to afford to build it anyway, and we'd probably have had to come back to square 1 and do the new route selection ANYWAY.

With regard to the routing, can I be selfish and want the Navy/Plum/Teal routes as they cut off corners.

In reality though I reckon the one closest to the 2010 plans will be picked. But what I would be interested to see are the old "1996 Buttevant bypass" plans, for interests sake.

And this might happen again. In 2010 happened after financial crisis but now we might have even bigger recession coming. 10 years after, deja vu...

Pete_Cavan · 19-11-2020 9:58pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

We all thought the M3 would be the biggest roads contract in Irish history but it would be nice to have the M20 as the biggest. 80km of new motorway at once ANYWHERE in Europe is impressive thesedays. But don't look at China.

I don't think it is guaranteed that it will be 80km of new motorway. The recent TII Projects Active List says; Cross-section: Motorway TBD. It wouldn't surprise me if it ended up with a section of 2+2 between Mallow and Charleville, AADT is only 10k.

steeler j · 19-11-2020 10:04pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Yes. The route was selected and the scheme went to ABP but was pulled by the government as they could not afford the CPOs at the time.

Everyone thinks this was a dreadful decision but they wouldn't have been able to afford to build it anyway, and we'd probably have had to come back to square 1 and do the new route selection ANYWAY.

With regard to the routing, can I be selfish and want the Navy/Plum/Teal routes as they cut off corners.

In reality though I reckon the one closest to the 2010 plans will be picked. But what I would be interested to see are the old "1996 Buttevant bypass" plans, for interests sake.

Thanks I always thought it only went to route selection , was wondering when I saw the 2010 route on it , didn't know it was that far along

marno21 · 20-11-2020 2:30am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I don't think it is guaranteed that it will be 80km of new motorway. The recent TII Projects Active List says; Cross-section: Motorway TBD. It wouldn't surprise me if it ended up with a section of 2+2 between Mallow and Charleville, AADT is only 10k.

This rule wasn’t applied to the M6/M7/M8/M9 or indeed the M17

There will be a transfer of traffic from other routes which will converge on the M20. I haven’t used the N20 in over a year end to end but I’ve been via the M8 several times for one.

Pete_Cavan · 20-11-2020 9:27am

marno21 wrote: »

This rule wasn’t applied to the M6/M7/M8/M9 or indeed the M17

There will be a transfer of traffic from other routes which will converge on the M20. I haven’t used the N20 in over a year end to end but I’ve been via the M8 several times for one.

With the benefit of hindsight, the M9 south of the junction with the N10 and the M17 both should have been 2+2. 2+2 wasn't as strong a concept here as it is now and HQDC was pushed for political reasons as much as anything else.

A well designed 2+2 could handle double the current AADT at the counter between Buttevant and Charleville so it should suffice even if the upgraded route attracts more traffic. When Dunkettle is freeflow, the M8 will likely still attract traffic from north Cork east of the N/M20 rather than getting dumped in a traffic jam at Blackpool. I'm sure the traffic studies being carried out will determine how much traffic is using alternative routes which may switch to an upgrade N20 route.

donal.hunt · 20-11-2020 10:55am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

With the benefit of hindsight, the M9 south of the junction with the N10 and the M17 both should have been 2+2. 2+2 wasn't as strong a concept here as it is now and HQDC was pushed for political reasons as much as anything else.

Can you give a brief explainer regarding what a 2+2 is and how it differs from a motorway?

Cookiemunster · 20-11-2020 10:56am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

With the benefit of hindsight, the M9 south of the junction with the N10 and the M17 both should have been 2+2. 2+2 wasn't as strong a concept here as it is now and HQDC was pushed for political reasons as much as anything else.

A well designed 2+2 could handle double the current AADT at the counter between Buttevant and Charleville so it should suffice even if the upgraded route attracts more traffic. When Dunkettle is freeflow, the M8 will likely still attract traffic from north Cork east of the N/M20 rather than getting dumped in a traffic jam at Blackpool. I'm sure the traffic studies being carried out will determine how much traffic is using alternative routes which may switch to an upgrade N20 route.

Whether it's justified or not, they'll build the whole route as motorway. I don't actually see that much of a saving in taking the hard shoulder out of 15km of an 80km scheme anyway. And they won't want a section of N road in the middle of two sections of motorway either.

hans aus dtschl · 20-11-2020 10:58am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Whether it's justified or not, they'll build the whole route as motorway. I don't actually see that much of a saving in taking the hard shoulder out of 15km of an 80km scheme anyway. And they won't want a section of N road in the middle of two sections of motorway either.

I'd be of the same thinking as you here.

Cookiemunster · 20-11-2020 11:01am

donal.hunt wrote: »

Can you give a grief explainer regarding what a 2+2 is and how it differs from a motorway?

2+2 is a dual carriage without any hard shoulder that has a wire median barrier. It can also have lower grade junctions (roundabouts), but in this situation, with no intermediate junctions between Buttevant and Charleville, that's not relevant.

20-11-2020 11:07am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

2+2 is a dual carriage without any hard shoulder that has a wire median barrier. It can also have lower grade junctions (roundabouts), but in this situation, with no intermediate junctions between Buttevant and Charleville, that's not relevant.

The speed limit difference an issue also, with DC normally 100km ph and inter county motorway usually 120 km ph

riddlinrussell · 20-11-2020 11:09am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

2+2 is a dual carriage without any hard shoulder that has a wire median barrier. It can also have lower grade junctions (roundabouts), but in this situation, with no intermediate junctions between Buttevant and Charleville, that's not relevant.

Also with no intermediate junctions most of the possible cost savings of 2&2 wont exist, you're basically saving the money on the median barrier and a small strip either side of tarmac (Especially as they would surely need to build wider bridges for a potential future upgrade). I can't see this not being all Motorway.

There isn't a legal requirement for 2+2 to be limited to 100km/h, several sections in Ireland with 120km/h limits, just mostly set there.

Pete_Cavan · 20-11-2020 11:59am

Open to correction here but 2+2 costs approx. €10m/km to build, motorway approx. €14m/km. You could have as much as 25km of 2+2 between north of Mallow and Charleville which would yield a saving of €100m. For reference, the N5 between Castlebar and Turlough has a higher AADT than the counter between Buttevant and Charleville but yet is being built as 2+2. Like I said, I wouldn't be surprise if we ended up with a section of 2+2 in the middle as there is a good logic for it.

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

Comments