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School Books rip offs

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    #122
    opiniated
    Closed Accounts Posts: 889 ✭✭✭opiniated


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    The school must be in a very disadvantaged area or doesn't manage the system very well.

    I'll still be happy to PM the telephone number to you, so you can advise them of your opinion, if you're interested?

    Surely if the school is in a disadvantaged area, it should ensure that more money would be available for the grant scheme, no?
    If not, there are questions to be asked about how the much lauded scheme is administered!

    Care to comment on my suggestion on how to reduce the cost of school books, without impacting the taxpayer?


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    #123
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    Do Educate Together schools not have to buy books???? Confused as to how they're the way to go.......

    We operate a book rental scheme but even still, many parents choose to buy their own books, new! I can't understand it myself!


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    #124
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    bajer101 wrote: »
    OP here. My point is why I had to pay €16 for a book that has no copyright or patent. T.

    So what? Why is that a problem?


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    #125
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    opiniated wrote: »
    I'll still be happy to PM the telephone number to you, so you can advise them of your opinion, if you're interested?

    Surely if the school is in a disadvantaged area, it should ensure that more money would be available for the grant scheme, no?
    If not, there are questions to be asked about how the much lauded scheme is administered!

    Care to comment on my suggestion on how to reduce the cost of school books, without impacting the taxpayer?

    Only if the school has DEIS status will it get more.

    School books are reasonably cheap in comparison to some of the crap people pay for. 24 cans will get you a few primary school books. Books have improved a huge amount in recent years. They are of a very high quality and I believe it may make people respect it more. Some people see the cost in everything but the value in nothing.


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    #126
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    bajer101 wrote: »
    Maybe I haven't articulated correctly why I believe that the €16 is extortionate and why I believe it is a racket. The main reason is because it is a workbook and it can't be sold or passed on. l

    .

    You'll pay at least ten euro for a mass-produced paperback with thin paper. You're buying a book with colour illustrations, produced on paper that isn't going to tear when small hands with pencils dig into it. You seem to be totally clueless about the real cost of things.


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    #127
    sm213
    Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭sm213


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    Workbooks benefit some children.

    They can also prepare children for the sigma tests at the end of year.

    I did those sigma tests grand without all those workbooks tbh.
    Who actually spouted that line first?


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    #128
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,278 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    sm213 wrote: »
    I did those sigma tests grand without all those workbooks tbh.
    Who actually spouted that line first?

    Times change tough. The copy from your book to your copy doesn't work for every child tough and work books might benefit these children. Good teachers are willing to try various different methods to benefit the class.


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    #129
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    inocybe wrote: »
    I never did, though I would have qualified. It isn't something that's publicized. My child's school uses a tablet instead of books now. Just got hit with a 150 yearly 'fee', along with a 100 'school fee'. Add that to the brand new crest they created for the uniform to keep the cartels in business, there's no attempt to keep costs down for parents. Something I hope the government will address eventually, I'm lobbying for some rules.
    Where the uniform is concerned, it's up to you, as a parent, to get together with other parents, contact your representatives on the BOM etc., and tell them you don't want the whole crest thing. Or just refuse, as a group, to buy uniforms with crests.


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    #130
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    bajer101 wrote: »
    My point about copyright and patent was that the knowledge and information in the books are not subject to copyright or patent. Pythagoras is not going to bring a court case! .

    You can't be serious. You think all there is to producing a maths book is copying and pasting theorems and the like? Has it crossed your mind at all that the work that goes into the book is in putting across mathematical concepts in an age-appropriate way, and providing relevant and interesting exercises and examples for the child? Who do you think does that? I'll give you a hint - Pythagoras is long dead...


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    #131
    dubscottie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 854 ✭✭✭dubscottie


    Being from Scotland, I have never understood the whole school book thing in Ireland.

    We were given school owned copies of textbooks at the start of the year and you had to had back in at the end.

    The french text books we used were 10 years old but had the basics. You wrote or copied stuff in your "jotter" or notebook. (neat margins with the date or you got it from the teacher)

    The only books that were updated every year (again provided by the school) were the Modern Studies books.

    I can understand it in a high school to a point put for a primary/junior school 1+1=2 and that does not change so why a new book every year?


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    #132
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    dubscottie wrote: »
    Being from Scotland, I have never understood the whole school book thing in Ireland.

    We were given school owned copies of textbooks at the start of the year and you had to had back in at the end.

    The french text books we used were 10 years old but had the basics. You wrote or copied stuff in your "jotter" or notebook. (neat margins with the date or you got it from the teacher)

    The only books that were updated every year (again provided by the school) were the Modern Studies books.

    I can understand it in a high school to a point put for a primary/junior school 1+1=2 and that does not change so why a new book every year?

    The amount of cock drawings would be all over the pages, rips on others, Johnny luvz Debs, etc, not sure it would work.


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    #133
    opiniated
    Closed Accounts Posts: 889 ✭✭✭opiniated


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    Only if the school has DEIS status will it get more.

    School books are reasonably cheap in comparison to some of the crap people pay for. 24 cans will get you a few primary school books. Books have improved a huge amount in recent years. They are of a very high quality and I believe it may make people respect it more. Some people see the cost in everything but the value in nothing.

    I'm not interested in the amount of "crap" some people pay for.
    I'm interested in trying to help people who want to educate their children, but genuinely struggle with the cost.

    Again:

    What is your opinion on my suggestion for reducing the cost of school books for parents of both primary and second level schools, which would be cost free to the taxpayer?

    Attempting to divert the question, having been asked three times, leads me to speculate that you have a motive for not answering...


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    #134
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    As class teacher I have always been very aware of the costs of books. Some years I inherited a booklist and had no control over it. This year the books in my class 6th cost 75E although that's not taking into account copies, folders or stationery. Majority of the books can be sold on or availed of in book rental scheme as they do not write in them. I do a fair bit of photocopying for history geography science as I do not have books for those. The Irish book this year seems to have to be written in, which I don't particularly want to do but waiting for some children to write a paragraph, others would have five written so sometimes it's just easier to write into something. I do not think 16E is extortionate for a book but I do understand that altogether with everything that is required and multiply that by two or more children and the costs add up.

    Also we have a plain navy uniform and tracksuit but uniforms with the crest can be purchased if required.


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    #135
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    purplecow1977 wrote: »

    Also we have a plain navy uniform and tracksuit but uniforms with the crest can be purchased if required.
    What do you mean "if required"?


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    #136
    BrokenArrows
    Registered Users Posts: 7,500 ✭✭✭BrokenArrows


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    What's the problem again?

    €16 is not extortionate for a school book. They're usually reasonably priced, and if you're complaining about the cost of school books at primary level, wait till your daughter is in college and you'll find out all about the extortionate cost of books.

    His problem is that there is nothing new in the book. A new novel might be £16 quid but after a few years you can buy it new for significantly less. Why aren't maths books the same?
    In fact they should be digital and given to students for free.


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    #137
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    BrokenArrows wrote: »
    His problem is that there is nothing new in the book. A new novel might be £16 quid but after a few years you can buy it new for significantly less. Why aren't maths books the same?
    In fact they should be digital and given to students for free.
    So the person that did the work compiling the book should not receive any royalties for it? Seriously?


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    #138
    Jogathon
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭Jogathon


    I'm a teacher and I put a lot of thought into my book list every year. Price is not a factor that I consider.

    Last year I had second and third class, and a total of 36 children with no sna in the class. I added an English workbook to my list, and I added an Irish book that they needed to write in. (Our Irish books are normally book rental). This was to make my job more manageable, to ensure that all could hit the target of my lesson without needing extra attention from me. I could focus on the children that needed me most. Yes, workbooks are not ideal, but sometimes they are necessary.

    A maths workbook that you fill in. I had a mental maths book which took ten minutes daily. It revised topics daily so I didn't have to! Our main maths book is book rental. Third class is the youngest class to have a maths book available on book rental. Second class and below need the structure of a book to fill in still.

    So, in short, I pick what I feel is most beneficial to the children, and I don't look at the price.

    I also don't look at publishers! They send examples of all their books to us, I pick the one that I feel is the best. No hard sell, in fact, we tend to get turned off when we hear the Folens man or whoever is in, and avoid going into the hall!! Just drop the samples to the secretary, and I'll make up my own mind!


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    #139
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    katydid wrote: »
    What do you mean "if required"?

    Apologies, I meant 'if desired'!


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    #140
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    opiniated wrote: »
    I'm not interested in the amount of "crap" some people pay for.
    I'm interested in trying to help people who want to educate their children, but genuinely struggle with the cost.

    Again:

    What is your opinion on my suggestion for reducing the cost of school books for parents of both primary and second level schools, which would be cost free to the taxpayer?

    Attempting to divert the question, having been asked three times, leads me to speculate that you have a motive for not answering...

    It's a small investment parents have to make and those who can't can avail of book grants and other social welfare entitlements if they meet criteria.

    My motive is that education is an investment that should be valued not costed and the children whose parents value education ALWAYS fair better in school because they can see their parents value it.

    Everything in life is not free and the English System has a serious issue of kids having zero respect for their teachers because they are handed everything.


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    #141
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    Apologies, I meant 'if desired'!

    Ok, but I don't really understand. You mean the crested stuff is optional? Why would parents want to fork out big money for crested stuff when the generic stuff is so much cheaper.


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    #142
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Mardy Bum wrote: »

    Everything in life is not free and the English System has a serious issue of kids having zero respect for their teachers because they are handed everything.

    When I worked in England, you had to hand out the books at the beginning of the class and take them back at the end, so they couldn't take them home to do homework.


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    #143
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    katydid wrote: »
    Ok, but I don't really understand. You mean the crested stuff is optional? Why would parents want to fork out big money for crested stuff when the generic stuff is so much cheaper.

    I guess you'd have to ask them!

    I'm not sure it's 'big money' as they got a good deal I think, but I assume the generic navy would be far cheaper. Many of them have the crested jumper though, and crested jackets. But it is not a requirement at all. Just some 'like' to have it.


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    #144
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    I guess you'd have to ask them!

    I'm not sure it's 'big money' as they got a good deal I think, but I assume the generic navy would be far cheaper. Many of them have the crested jumper though, and crested jackets. But it is not a requirement at all. Just some 'like' to have it.

    It mus be strange if some kids go round with crests on their uniforms and some not. Not exactly "uniform", is it? Isn't one of the points of uniform supposed to be to make all kids the same, and not show difference between rich and poor - but this way you have richer parents buying crested clothes...


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    #145
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    Not really. On paper you might think that might be the case but it's really not. No heed is given.


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    #146
    Aineoil
    Registered Users Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Aineoil


    I don't want to derail this thread but after 28 years of teaching I am not sure of the value of homework in primary school.

    The pressure homework puts on children and parents is too negative. Where does a child get the time to interact with all other activities, be it sport, music. or whatever?

    The theory of multiple intelligences is something I agree with. There are many intelligences as of the following -

    Existential, intrapersonal, interpersonal, naturlistic, bodily–kinesthetic, logical–mathematical, verbal–linguistic, visual–spatial, musical–rhythmic and harmonic.

    We are all different, thank goodness.


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    #147
    opiniated
    Closed Accounts Posts: 889 ✭✭✭opiniated


    Mardy Bum wrote: »
    It's a small investment parents have to make and those who can't can avail of book grants and other social welfare entitlements if they meet criteria.

    My motive is that education is an investment that should be valued not costed and the children whose parents value education ALWAYS fair better in school because they can see their parents value it.

    Everything in life is not free and the English System has a serious issue of kids having zero respect for their teachers because they are handed everything.

    So, you're motivation is that you should spend double the amount, on the exact same books, to prove that you value education?
    With respect, that is highly illogical.

    Again, I have not suggested that the books should be free.
    I have suggested that the Dept of Education should negotiate a discount, based on bulk buying. Parents would still pay for the books. There is no cost to the taxpayer. Existing bookshops still distribute the books. Teachers still choose the books.

    There is absolutely no loss - to anyone - except the publishers profit margins.

    Your failure to address this, by being, I suspect, deliberately obtuse, suggests that your motivation is based more on concern for publishers profit margins than any other factor, since there is no loss involved for anyone else.


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    #148
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    purplecow1977 wrote: »
    Not really. On paper you might think that might be the case but it's really not. No heed is given.

    Exactly! What I've been saying all along in regard to uniforms v ordinary clothes...


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    #149
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Aineoil wrote: »
    I don't want to derail this thread but after 28 years of teaching I am not sure of the value of homework in primary school.

    The pressure homework puts on children and parents is too negative. Where does a child get the time to interact with all other activities, be it sport, music. or whatever?

    The theory of multiple intelligences is something I agree with. There are many intelligences as of the following -

    Existential, intrapersonal, interpersonal, naturlistic, bodily–kinesthetic, logical–mathematical, verbal–linguistic, visual–spatial, musical–rhythmic and harmonic.

    We are all different, thank goodness.

    The kind of homework many kids get is worthless, for the reasons you stated. Work for the sake of it is not helpful, especially in large amounts. BUT homework can be useful in terms of self study skills, reinforcement of learning etc.. It should be given only when necessary and for a clear purpose. I would not like to see no homework at primary level; I worked in a couple of schools in England where the kids came from primary schools with a no homework policy, and they found it very hard to adapt to that element of secondary


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    #150
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Aineoil wrote: »
    I don't want to derail this thread but after 28 years of teaching I am not sure of the value of homework in primary school.

    The pressure homework puts on children and parents is too negative. Where does a child get the time to interact with all other activities, be it sport, music. or whatever?

    The theory of multiple intelligences is something I agree with. There are many intelligences as of the following -

    Existential, intrapersonal, interpersonal, naturlistic, bodily–kinesthetic, logical–mathematical, verbal–linguistic, visual–spatial, musical–rhythmic and harmonic.

    We are all different, thank goodness.

    On BBC 4 radio there are a number of terrific podcasts from leading educators. In one of them, sorry I can't remember which one, he cites that they already know that homework is pointless, and we still do it.

    Education is about 60 years behind the research.

    Especially now when kids have two working parents.....there simply may not be the time at home for this....and just adds to the stress of homelife. If they want to continue homework then they need to start implementing after school homework clubs, which as arguably also a dumb idea.


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    #151
    purplecow1977
    Registered Users Posts: 2,877 ✭✭✭purplecow1977


    I prefer to have uniforms rather than ordinary clothes.


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