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School Books rip offs
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Ah here, you dont actually believe that?But seriously, the books isn't just the actual maths in it - it has (the publisher believes) been designed so the material will be accessible to the students, help the teacher present the material, facilitate learning and so on. All this might need to be revised based on stuff like teacher feedback, or because of decisions made by the Dept of Education, or their own research on the best practices in teaching maths.
That is going to be how maths books differ from each other, as the maths itself isn't going to change.
Not to say it's worth the money, but it's more than just the maths itself in there.0 -
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This scheme doesn't benefit the education of the child as either way kids are going to get the books. This is to benefit the parents who don't want to shell out money on the children that they've produced. Children that they already receive financial help out of taxes to raise.
And yes, parents paying taxes will contribute to the cost of books but so will the massive population of childless people, who would have probably paid off their cost of education years before they'll stop paying tax.
And even if they did do it, how would it be implemented? The same book for every student in the country? Would they be sold in shops or gotten through the schools? What about supplementary books? Or special needs? would they also be provided free of charge even if not that many students in the country need them.
This would just be another department for the government to fill with people that we can't afford to do a job thats being provided sufficiently by the private sector currently for no reason.
Choice of two books per subject. Teachers to select the two books, majority of teachers choosing the same two books to decide on which two books make the list.
Teachers to submit choice of books in good time, annually. Allowing time for required number of books to be printed, where necessary.
Dept. of Education to submit list to publishers, and negotiate a discount.
As a bare minimum, parents still get to save approx. 50% of the cost of the books, even without any Dept. of Education subsidy.
Win/Win situation, all for the cost of a couple of man hours in the Dept. of Education, submitting the various school orders into a spreadsheet.
Unless you think that no parent in the Country should dare to have been affected by unemployment, or a wage reduction, or both?0 -
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There is already book grant schemes for this which means they get books for free.
I never did, though I would have qualified. It isn't something that's publicized. My child's school uses a tablet instead of books now. Just got hit with a 150 yearly 'fee', along with a 100 'school fee'. Add that to the brand new crest they created for the uniform to keep the cartels in business, there's no attempt to keep costs down for parents. Something I hope the government will address eventually, I'm lobbying for some rules.0 -
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So basically you agree with the taxpayer paying €450m per year for the education budget, but for some reason draw the line at schoolbooks and supplies? Even if this resulted in a better deal? I don't understand this position, but you are of course entitled to it.
What you are not entitled to, is to claim that "you just don't want to pay for it". I don't want to pay above the odds for something if I think it is overpriced. Where your claim really falls down is that if books were provided from central funds I would personally end up paying a lot more than I currently as I pay about three times the national average of PAYE. But I wouldn't mind this as the books would be better value and it would benefit society instead of a cartel of publishers.
I have no problem paying for services or other products for my child - I just have a problem if I think they are overpriced, which is what this thread is about. Today I paid an additional €75 to the school for violin lessons which I think is fantastic value considering she will get 1 hours violin tuition a week for approx 30 weeks. I also don't mind paying the €180 for her gymnastics classes as they represent good value and are competitively priced with other similar classes.
To reiterate - I am complaining about a €16 book which I think is overpriced. The equivalent book in the UK is less than £5.
I draw the line at school books and supplies because they are being sufficiently provided by the private sector. The issue you have isn't with the quality of the book, which would be an understandable gripe, it's with the cost. I don't see how the taxpayer is getting a better deal here. The individual maybe but not the taxpayer as a whole.
That comment wasn't directed at you personally it was an opinion about a prevalent attidute that I am fully entitled to hold.
Exactly and so would everyone else. Our schools systems are competing with getting rid of the church, a surge in immigration and population growth. They are already stretched thinly as it is. How would they be better value? Because they're made by the state? If you have such a massive issue with the ethical practices of these companies discuss this with your parents association or your childs teacher. And what makes you think they won't contract it out to these companies anyway.
I'm still stumped on your claim that it will benefit society. The books wouldn't be any different, just free. That's not a benefit to society. That's just paying for things through taxes which will cost more anyway.
But the book isn't overpriced. It's a reasonable amount to pay for a book your child will use for a year. The cost in other countries is redundant because we don't live in other countries, we live here. And even if we consider those costs, why would anybody want to emmulate the british system?0 -
Choice of two books per subject. Teachers to select the two books, majority of teachers choosing the same two books to decide on which two books make the list.
Teachers to submit choice of books in good time, annually. Allowing time for required number of books to be printed, where necessary.
Dept. of Education to submit list to publishers, and negotiate a discount.
As a bare minimum, parents still get to save approx. 50% of the cost of the books, even without any Dept. of Education subsidy.
Win/Win situation, all for the cost of a couple of man hours in the Dept. of Education, submitting the various school orders into a spreadsheet.
Unless you think that no parent in the Country should dare to have been affected by unemployment, or a wage reduction, or both?
So you want to narrow down a teachers choice even further. And your not worried quality will decline?
On top of all the other preparation they already have to do. And what happens if a child transfers school? Or enrolls late? Or losses or damages a book.
Ah there we go, Parents get to save not the taxpayers as a whole as Bajer seems interested in getting across. I have no issue with people looking out for themselves in their political views, but don't claim its to better society. It's not.
Except for the taxpayer who loses out.
As pointed out there is already help out there for the cost of books. Having children in Ireland is already subsidized and as I've pointed out before I have no issue with people getting the help when they need it I do have an issue with people who can pay the cost assosiated but instead want taxpayers to foot the bill.
I'll just reitterate myself here so nobody else will accuse me of being against a welfare state:
I believe wholeheartedly in a welfare state. :cool:0 -
That's not an argument against implementing a policy that would cost an additional outlay but which ultimately save the taxpayer money. If you were to follow this argument, then you would have been against spending money on the book rental scheme or the book allowance grant - because when these were introduced, schools were already stretched. If two years ago I had lobbied for the Government to stump up €15m for a book rental scheme, would you have disagreed based on your argument above?Do you have any idea at the state of education infrastructure across the country. Schools are packed to capacity. There are 30-1 in small classrooms. There is very limited play areas in some schools. The budget has been increased last year for the first time in years which mainly went to help those with SENs which was a long time coming.Anything from the English education system has to come with a warning because the average teacher doesn't last 5 years in it and they are recruiting from foreign countries just to get people to teach English in England. There is something very very wrong with it.
As have been mentioned numerous times, we are only talking about the policy of the UK Dept. of funding books. I can't see how this would have any detrimental effect on their system. When they are reviewing their educational policies and its deficiencies, I don't imagine any jumping up and saying, "Do you know what the root cause of all the problems are - it's the damn government paying for the books from central funds. If only they devolved that to private cartels let them call the shots on what books are available and set the prices, that would solve the problems".There are book grants for those unable to afford books in Ireland and they are relatively easy to get.
This has no effect on the retail cost of schoolbooks. If anything, grants tend to push the price up as there is more ready cash available to purchase the product and limits natural market forces (which are already severely hampered by our system). It also has nothing to do with my original gripe about the €16 book being overpriced, or with the subsequent argument about a centrally funded scheme being a better idea and getting better value for the taxpayer.
You mentioned previously that the education system is stretched. It could be argued that instead of spending money on the current book rental scheme and the book grants that you advocate, spending money on a "free" book scheme would be cheaper overall and would free up more money for the education sector.
I really don't understand why you seem so intent on defending the current system. Surely you have to admit that there have been valid points raised and that there is a debate to be had. Deciding to just disagree with everything that certain posters say is not conducive to a constructive debate. It is just being contrary for the sake of it. I would love to have a good debate about all this, but if I just think that someone is going to disagree with me just for the sake of it, I don't really see the point.I draw the line at school books and supplies because they are being sufficiently provided by the private sector. The issue you have isn't with the quality of the book, which would be an understandable gripe, it's with the cost. I don't see how the taxpayer is getting a better deal here. The individual maybe but not the taxpayer as a whole.
Ah, but what kicked off this debate was that there is a belief that books are not being sufficiently supplied by the private sector. There is evidence of a cartel operating. The Government had to step in a couple of years ago and pressure them into entering into a code of conduct to address their practice of issuing revised editions every couple of years. This single fact alone shows that there is a problem with the industry.
And interesting point about the sector is that it is not subject to the usual capitalist market forces. The normal rules of supply and demand do not apply. If I walk into Easons and fancy buying the latest John Grisham book, I am deciding that I fancy that book and I am willing to pay for it. If I discover that it is €16 I can decide that it is bad value and decide to buy another bestseller for €8. This is market forces at work. This does not apply to the shcool book sector. I am the person who forks out for the book, but someone else has made the decision that I have to pay for it. The teacher who has made this decision has been bombarded by professional salesmen who are operating in a cartel. I read a report that showed that when teachers are deciding the criteria for choosing a book, price features very low in their decision making 7th in the list of factors!I'm still stumped on your claim that it will benefit society. The books wouldn't be any different, just free. That's not a benefit to society. That's just paying for things through taxes which will cost more anyway.
I stumped that you don't see my point. It benefits society because the cost of textbooks would fall by up to 50%. While a small amount of childless might pay a tiny bit more tax in the short term, in the long term every adult, who would have been a child at some stage will have benefited.But the book isn't overpriced. It's a reasonable amount to pay for a book your child will use for a year. The cost in other countries is redundant because we don't live in other countries, we live here. And even if we consider those costs, why would anybody want to emmulate the british system?
This goes back to my original point. I believe that the book is overpriced and I have not heard any argument to counter this. There's a cartel in operation who are engaged in price fixing where retailers are not allowed sell at a discounted rate. The fact that the equivalent book in the UK costs less than half the price is perfectly valid. There are economies of scale involved, but it has been shown that their system has pushed the price down.0 -
I'm quite left on the political spectrum but not wanting to pay for school books which are so important especially at primary school when one can is just stingy and emphasises to children that books are not worth paying for. It's the devaluing of books I'm against.0
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I'm quite left on the political spectrum but not wanting to pay for school books which are so important especially at primary school when one can is just stingy and emphasises to children that books are not worth paying for. It's the devaluing of books I'm against.
But that hasn't been my point at all! My point all along has been that I think that the books are over priced due to there being a cartel who have been involved in shady practices. This moved on to me arguing that a centrally funded and managed system would address this. I can be left or right depending on the merits of each situation. I agree with water charges, for example, but would be very left leaning on the issue of schoolbooks. It is not a question of not wanting to pay for schoolbooks and I don't think anyone here has argued that. If the books were 10 times the price I would still pay!
I just think that it is an area where we should be having a debate. I mentioned earlier that affordability is not an issue for me as I only have one child. But there are families with a few kids who are facing huge bills each year and for whom this is a big problem.0 -
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Folens books are copyrighted.
My point about copyright and patent was that the knowledge and information in the books are not subject to copyright or patent. Pythagoras is not going to bring a court case! The Dept. of Education could organise for these books to be written and published. They are the ones who set the curriculum after all. But we have left the publishing of these books to a skewed section of the private sector who I think are taking the píss.0 -
But that hasn't been my point at all! My point all along has been that I think that the books are over priced due to there being a cartel who have been involved in shady practices. This moved on to me arguing that a centrally funded and managed system would address this. I can be left or right depending on the merits of each situation. I agree with water charges, for example, but would be very left leaning on the issue of schoolbooks. It is not a question of not wanting to pay for schoolbooks and I don't think anyone here has argued that. If the books were 10 times the price I would still pay!
I just think that it is an area where we should be having a debate. I mentioned earlier that affordability is not an issue for me as I only have one child. But there are families with a few kids who are facing huge bills each year and for whom this is a big problem.
Books are expensive because of they are copyrighted. Folens are of a very high quality. They get the best people to design them and take on board what teachers say during the year. Educate are quite good too. The reasons it seems like its a cartel is because of the high start up costs involved and the high risk of failure in your first year. Its an oligopoly but not a cartel.
Centrally funded and managed would just turn into a quango and school management would have to do all the work as usual.0 -
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I know a few teachers.
Teacher A put 12 books on the book list.
Parents at the wall. "Why is their so many books on the list?" "Do they think we're made of money" "they won't even finish them" "I'm complaining"
Teacher B puts 8 books on the list. Parents at the wall. "There's not enough books for them to learn" "That teachers had ideas/notions". "Last year their were 10 books, this new teacher isn't up to the job" " I'm complaining"0 -
Fair enough. My OP was a rant, but I would like to think that I have subsequently elaborated in a reasonable fashion.
Fair play, an honest response.
And I agree to an extent - textbook publishing is a captive market and should be monitored. But my point earlier was while the maths itself obviously isn't copyrighted, that there are other things in the books besides the maths.
Of course nobody can copyright 2+2=4, but they can copyright (and do, and will copyright) the way 2+2=4 is presented in a book.
As I said earlier, go ahead and say the book is overpriced - I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but I think it is way too simplistic (and insulting to teachers and researchers who experiment with new material and new ways of presenting material to see if there is a better way of teaching) to just say that it is exactly the same as all the others and is just a cut and paste job.
Certianly, I'd agree with a Dept of Education group whose job was to confirm that any new edition was sufficiently different (and improved) from the previous version to justify its publication though.0 -
Books are expensive because of they are copyrighted. Folens are of a very high quality. They get the best people to design them and take on board what teachers say during the year. Educate are quite good too. The reasons it seems like its a cartel is because of the high start up costs involved and the high risk of failure in your first year. Its an oligopoly but not a cartel.
Centrally funded and managed would just turn into a quango and school management would have to do all the work as usual.
I would definitely accept that the quango scenario would be a risk and we wouldn't want to see something like the Irish Water fiasco develop. But that alone is not a reason to shoot down an idea. It's a reason to be wary and to make sure that you learn from past mistakes. If we took the stance that we should not implement something that should be a good idea, just because mistakes were made in the past we would never implement any good ideas. I also don't accept that school management being landed with the management of the scheme is a valid argument. They already have to manage the book rental scheme. I think we are drifting away from the original point I was making about my belief that school books are over priced, but I think that a discussion about the merits of implementing a "free" book scheme is definitely worth having.
I definitely disagree with you about the publishers not being a cartel. The Government had to jump in and impose a "voluntary" code of conduct on them to stop them issuing new editions every couple of years. When a Government has to do that, that is nearly by definition a cartel. The voluntary code of conduct was a half measure and will fail as it is self regulated. This area will definitely be revisited. I believe that the upsurge in workbooks was the publisher's way of making up for the loss of revenue they suffered in having to sign up to the "voluntary" code of not re-issuing books every couple of years.
It's interesting that you mention the quality of the books and the best people designing them. This sounds like a saleman's spiel. In the report I read (which is a good few years old in fairness), this was the number one reason that teachers gave in their criteria for choosing a book, while cost was 7th on the list. The argument of the quality of the books falls down on the new variable in the equation - these textbooks are combined study and workbooks. They only have to last one year! After which they will be tossed away.
Have a look at the equivalent UK Maths book that I linked to earlier and which costs less than £5. You can do a "look inside". Quality of content looks spot on to me and you won't have to throw it away at the end of the year.
Anyway, I appreciate your comments and I am glad that the level of debate has moved up a notch. What started out as a bit of a rant from me has got me a bit more interested in the subject and I absolutely welcome the opinion and views from people at the coalface.0 -
Fair play, an honest response.
And I agree to an extent - textbook publishing is a captive market and should be monitored. But my point earlier was while the maths itself obviously isn't copyrighted, that there are other things in the books besides the maths.
Of course nobody can copyright 2+2=4, but they can copyright (and do, and will copyright) the way 2+2=4 is presented in a book.
As I said earlier, go ahead and say the book is overpriced - I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but I think it is way too simplistic (and insulting to teachers and researchers who experiment with new material and new ways of presenting material to see if there is a better way of teaching) to just say that it is exactly the same as all the others and is just a cut and paste job.
Certianly, I'd agree with a Dept of Education group whose job was to confirm that any new edition was sufficiently different (and improved) from the previous version to justify its publication though.
Friday night is not the best time to make a ranting post :-) I definitely didn't get my point across well and that wasn't helped when someone told me to fúck off to facebook and I got red carded for my less than measured response. But I think the debate has moved on since then and there now seems to be a decent debate occurring.
I don't really disagree with anything you are saying either. My gripe is not with the authors of the books and I certainly wouldn't begrudge them their royalties. Throughout this conversation I have frequently thought of my leaving cert Maths teacher who I hold in the very highest esteem. He is the author of many Maths text books and I hope he has made a good few quid from them. When I was thinking about a centrally managed system of free books, he was the man I was thinking of who should write the books.
But my problem is not with the authors or the content or the copyright. It is the publishers. If we look at the example that I originally gave of the €16 third class text book (that is also a workbook, and which is accompanied by another separate workbook), that has to be publisher driven! If the Dept. identified a couple of excellent author/teachers and got them to produce the books we would have the same quality books provided to the children at a much cheaper cost. The only losers would be the publishers.0 -
I wouldn't let the Department take charge of buying pencils never mind govern the books used in classrooms.0
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I wouldn't let the Department take charge of buying pencils never mind govern the books used in classrooms.
But they already set the curriculum and hire the teachers and fund every other aspect of the educational system. Why are you happy to leave the production of the books to outside agencies whose main motive is profit?0 -
But they already set the curriculum and hire the teachers and fund every other aspect of the educational system. Why are you happy to leave the production of the books to outside agencies whose main motive is profit?
They have set a curriculum that is completely overloaded. It just cannot be realistically achieved by teachers and they have made a total mockery of newly qualified teachers with regards to pay cuts and Job-bridge scheme.
At least at the moment, interested teachers and educators are compiling books, whilst adhering to curriculum guidelines but I do agree that new editions need not be as regular. (More of a second level issue than primary.)0 -
OP here. My point is why I had to pay €16 for a book that has no copyright or patent. The publishers of these books appear to have entered into a cartel. Our government gave the schools funds to introduce a book rental scheme, but this scheme has become irrelevant as most of the text books have changed and are now "workbooks" which are exempt from this scheme. €16 for a workbook that cannot be sold on and which contains no new knowledge.
The comments about how much I spend on my books are irrelevant and miss the point. I have spent anything from 50c to €100 on a book. So what? I am talking about a €16 3rd class math book that is overpriced.
The comments about the cost of college books are also irrelevant. Again, my point is about the cost of primary school books.
The example I gave was that I paid €16 for a third class math book. There is not patent or copyright issue with the information in these type of books. €16 is a ridiculous amount of money to charge for these books,
And what is worse is that the new breed of schoolbooks seem to workbooks. You cannot sell them on or pass them on to younger relatives.
I paid €16 for a math book for my 8 year old child. This book contains information that was copied and pasted from existing knowledge and I cannot even gift that book to someone else. That's the crux of my argument.
The workbooks are a complete scam. Nobody minds paying for a book that a few kids will get the use of or can be sold on. What is wrong with doing the work in a copy that costs about 50 cent?0 -
The workbooks are a complete scam. Nobody minds paying for a book that a few kids will get the use of or can be sold on. What is wrong with doing the work in a copy that costs about 50 cent?
Workbooks benefit some children.
They can also prepare children for the sigma tests at the end of year.0 -
There is already book grant schemes for this which means they get books for free.
I don't qualify for a book grant. I believe, however, that my local (second level, I've no idea about primary level grants!), gives €60 to 1st years, and €50 to 4th years. Which is pretty paltry, considering most of the books cost around €30 each.So you want to narrow down a teachers choice even further. And your not worried quality will decline?
On top of all the other preparation they already have to do. And what happens if a child transfers school? Or enrolls late? Or losses or damages a book.
No. I'm not worried that quality will decline. Why would it? If the books are covering the curriculum, and the majority of teachers select those particular books, why would it cause any decline in quality?
As to preparation? All they have to do is choose a book. Which is something they do, anyway!Ah there we go, Parents get to save not the taxpayers as a whole as Bajer seems interested in getting across. I have no issue with people looking out for themselves in their political views, but don't claim its to better society. It's not.
Except for the taxpayer who loses out.
As pointed out there is already help out there for the cost of books. Having children in Ireland is already subsidized and as I've pointed out before I have no issue with people getting the help when they need it I do have an issue with people who can pay the cost assosiated but instead want taxpayers to foot the bill.
I'll just reitterate myself here so nobody else will accuse me of being against a welfare state:
I believe wholeheartedly in a welfare state. :cool:
I suspect you didn't read my post!
My suggestion has nothing to do with the taxpayer!
The only cost to the taxpayer in my suggestion would be a couple of man hours (wages) in the Dept. of Education, inputting the various school orders into a spreadsheet to compile an order for the publishers.
Same publishers, same books, slightly smaller choice, but one the majority of teachers are happy with.
The Dept. would submit the order, and negotiate a price reduction on behalf of the parents, who would then pay the (lesser) cost of the books.
There is no disadvantage or cost to the taxpayer. (Maybe 2 or 3 cents (per taxpayer) per year to cover wages.
There are huge potential savings for parents.
It would encourage the authors to produce quality books, otherwise they wouldn't make the preferred books list.
The only possible loss is to the publishers. Who would have to supply the books at a bulk discount.
Nothing else would change. The books could even be issued through existing bookshops.I would definitely accept that the quango scenario would be a risk and we wouldn't want to see something like the Irish Water fiasco develop. But that alone is not a reason to shoot down an idea. It's a reason to be wary and to make sure that you learn from past mistakes. If we took the stance that we should not implement something that should be a good idea, just because mistakes were made in the past we would never implement any good ideas. I also don't accept that school management being landed with the management of the scheme is a valid argument. They already have to manage the book rental scheme. I think we are drifting away from the original point I was making about my belief that school books are over priced, but I think that a discussion about the merits of implementing a "free" book scheme is definitely worth having.
I definitely disagree with you about the publishers not being a cartel. The Government had to jump in and impose a "voluntary" code of conduct on them to stop them issuing new editions every couple of years. When a Government has to do that, that is nearly by definition a cartel. The voluntary code of conduct was a half measure and will fail as it is self regulated. This area will definitely be revisited. I believe that the upsurge in workbooks was the publisher's way of making up for the loss of revenue they suffered in having to sign up to the "voluntary" code of not re-issuing books every couple of years.
It's interesting that you mention the quality of the books and the best people designing them. This sounds like a saleman's spiel. In the report I read (which is a good few years old in fairness), this was the number one reason that teachers gave in their criteria for choosing a book, while cost was 7th on the list. The argument of the quality of the books falls down on the new variable in the equation - these textbooks are combined study and workbooks. They only have to last one year! After which they will be tossed away.
Have a look at the equivalent UK Maths book that I linked to earlier and which costs less than £5. You can do a "look inside". Quality of content looks spot on to me and you won't have to throw it away at the end of the year.
Anyway, I appreciate your comments and I am glad that the level of debate has moved up a notch. What started out as a bit of a rant from me has got me a bit more interested in the subject and I absolutely welcome the opinion and views from people at the coalface.
Fully agree with the bolded points.0 -
I don't qualify for a book grant. I believe, however, that my local (second level, I've no idea about primary level grants!), gives €60 to 1st years, and €50 to 4th years. Which is pretty paltry, considering most of the books cost around €30 each.
I find this impossible to believe. It must be the lowest in the country. You get book tokens to a certain value well above that generally.0 -
I find this impossible to believe. It must be the lowest in the country. You get book tokens to a certain value well above that generally.
I'll be happy to PM you the telephone number of the school in question, if you want?
Whether you find it impossible to believe, or not, does not alter the fact that it is the simple truth!
Would you care to comment on my zero cost to the taxpayer suggestion on how to reduce the cost of schoolbooks?0 -
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I ordered this book for my daughter today, I am looking forward to discovering what amazing new discovery in Maths that Folens have discovered that will justify them charging €16.40 for this book. Surely they can't be just rehashing existing knowledge and basically just copying and pasting that stuff and charging people this extortionate sum? This is crazy.
Educate Together schools are definitely a step in the right direction. But we have hopefully moved on. The next battle has to be about this nonsense of €16 maths books.
You seriously think a textbook is about copying and pasting? People put work into those books, and they deserve to have their work recognised.
Sixteen euro is very little for a textbook with illustrations.0 -
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School Books? !!!
ITS A GOOD BELT OF THE ROD THEY NEED.0
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