School Books rip offs

bajer101 · 27-07-2015 9:05pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I'm quite left on the political spectrum but not wanting to pay for school books which are so important especially at primary school when one can is just stingy and emphasises to children that books are not worth paying for. It's the devaluing of books I'm against.

But that hasn't been my point at all! My point all along has been that I think that the books are over priced due to there being a cartel who have been involved in shady practices. This moved on to me arguing that a centrally funded and managed system would address this. I can be left or right depending on the merits of each situation. I agree with water charges, for example, but would be very left leaning on the issue of schoolbooks. It is not a question of not wanting to pay for schoolbooks and I don't think anyone here has argued that. If the books were 10 times the price I would still pay!

I just think that it is an area where we should be having a debate. I mentioned earlier that affordability is not an issue for me as I only have one child. But there are families with a few kids who are facing huge bills each year and for whom this is a big problem.

osarusan · 27-07-2015 9:07pm

bajer101 wrote: »

But that hasn't been my point at all! My point all along has been that I think that the books are over priced due to there being a cartel who have been involved in shady practices.

No, it hasn't been your point all along.

Literally none of what you just posted was in your OP.

bajer101 · 27-07-2015 9:11pm

osarusan wrote: »

Folens books are copyrighted.

My point about copyright and patent was that the knowledge and information in the books are not subject to copyright or patent. Pythagoras is not going to bring a court case! The Dept. of Education could organise for these books to be written and published. They are the ones who set the curriculum after all. But we have left the publishing of these books to a skewed section of the private sector who I think are taking the píss.

Mardy Bum · 27-07-2015 9:13pm

bajer101 wrote: »

But that hasn't been my point at all! My point all along has been that I think that the books are over priced due to there being a cartel who have been involved in shady practices. This moved on to me arguing that a centrally funded and managed system would address this. I can be left or right depending on the merits of each situation. I agree with water charges, for example, but would be very left leaning on the issue of schoolbooks. It is not a question of not wanting to pay for schoolbooks and I don't think anyone here has argued that. If the books were 10 times the price I would still pay!

I just think that it is an area where we should be having a debate. I mentioned earlier that affordability is not an issue for me as I only have one child. But there are families with a few kids who are facing huge bills each year and for whom this is a big problem.

Books are expensive because of they are copyrighted. Folens are of a very high quality. They get the best people to design them and take on board what teachers say during the year. Educate are quite good too. The reasons it seems like its a cartel is because of the high start up costs involved and the high risk of failure in your first year. Its an oligopoly but not a cartel.

Centrally funded and managed would just turn into a quango and school management would have to do all the work as usual.

bajer101 · 27-07-2015 9:16pm

osarusan wrote: »

No, it hasn't been your point all along.

Literally none of what you just posted was in your OP.

Fair enough. My OP was a rant, but I would like to think that I have subsequently elaborated in a reasonable fashion.

freshpopcorn · 27-07-2015 9:18pm

I know a few teachers.
Teacher A put 12 books on the book list.
Parents at the wall. "Why is their so many books on the list?" "Do they think we're made of money" "they won't even finish them" "I'm complaining"
Teacher B puts 8 books on the list. Parents at the wall. "There's not enough books for them to learn" "That teachers had ideas/notions". "Last year their were 10 books, this new teacher isn't up to the job" " I'm complaining"

osarusan · 27-07-2015 9:31pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Fair enough. My OP was a rant, but I would like to think that I have subsequently elaborated in a reasonable fashion.

Fair play, an honest response.

And I agree to an extent - textbook publishing is a captive market and should be monitored. But my point earlier was while the maths itself obviously isn't copyrighted, that there are other things in the books besides the maths.

Of course nobody can copyright 2+2=4, but they can copyright (and do, and will copyright) the way 2+2=4 is presented in a book.

As I said earlier, go ahead and say the book is overpriced - I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but I think it is way too simplistic (and insulting to teachers and researchers who experiment with new material and new ways of presenting material to see if there is a better way of teaching) to just say that it is exactly the same as all the others and is just a cut and paste job.

Certianly, I'd agree with a Dept of Education group whose job was to confirm that any new edition was sufficiently different (and improved) from the previous version to justify its publication though.

bajer101 · 27-07-2015 9:39pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Books are expensive because of they are copyrighted. Folens are of a very high quality. They get the best people to design them and take on board what teachers say during the year. Educate are quite good too. The reasons it seems like its a cartel is because of the high start up costs involved and the high risk of failure in your first year. Its an oligopoly but not a cartel.

Centrally funded and managed would just turn into a quango and school management would have to do all the work as usual.

I would definitely accept that the quango scenario would be a risk and we wouldn't want to see something like the Irish Water fiasco develop. But that alone is not a reason to shoot down an idea. It's a reason to be wary and to make sure that you learn from past mistakes. If we took the stance that we should not implement something that should be a good idea, just because mistakes were made in the past we would never implement any good ideas. I also don't accept that school management being landed with the management of the scheme is a valid argument. They already have to manage the book rental scheme. I think we are drifting away from the original point I was making about my belief that school books are over priced, but I think that a discussion about the merits of implementing a "free" book scheme is definitely worth having.

I definitely disagree with you about the publishers not being a cartel. The Government had to jump in and impose a "voluntary" code of conduct on them to stop them issuing new editions every couple of years. When a Government has to do that, that is nearly by definition a cartel. The voluntary code of conduct was a half measure and will fail as it is self regulated. This area will definitely be revisited. I believe that the upsurge in workbooks was the publisher's way of making up for the loss of revenue they suffered in having to sign up to the "voluntary" code of not re-issuing books every couple of years.

It's interesting that you mention the quality of the books and the best people designing them. This sounds like a saleman's spiel. In the report I read (which is a good few years old in fairness), this was the number one reason that teachers gave in their criteria for choosing a book, while cost was 7th on the list. The argument of the quality of the books falls down on the new variable in the equation - these textbooks are combined study and workbooks. They only have to last one year! After which they will be tossed away.

Have a look at the equivalent UK Maths book that I linked to earlier and which costs less than £5. You can do a "look inside". Quality of content looks spot on to me and you won't have to throw it away at the end of the year.

Anyway, I appreciate your comments and I am glad that the level of debate has moved up a notch. What started out as a bit of a rant from me has got me a bit more interested in the subject and I absolutely welcome the opinion and views from people at the coalface.

bajer101 · 27-07-2015 9:57pm

osarusan wrote: »

Fair play, an honest response.

And I agree to an extent - textbook publishing is a captive market and should be monitored. But my point earlier was while the maths itself obviously isn't copyrighted, that there are other things in the books besides the maths.

Of course nobody can copyright 2+2=4, but they can copyright (and do, and will copyright) the way 2+2=4 is presented in a book.

As I said earlier, go ahead and say the book is overpriced - I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but I think it is way too simplistic (and insulting to teachers and researchers who experiment with new material and new ways of presenting material to see if there is a better way of teaching) to just say that it is exactly the same as all the others and is just a cut and paste job.

Certianly, I'd agree with a Dept of Education group whose job was to confirm that any new edition was sufficiently different (and improved) from the previous version to justify its publication though.

Friday night is not the best time to make a ranting post :-) I definitely didn't get my point across well and that wasn't helped when someone told me to fúck off to facebook and I got red carded for my less than measured response. But I think the debate has moved on since then and there now seems to be a decent debate occurring.

I don't really disagree with anything you are saying either. My gripe is not with the authors of the books and I certainly wouldn't begrudge them their royalties. Throughout this conversation I have frequently thought of my leaving cert Maths teacher who I hold in the very highest esteem. He is the author of many Maths text books and I hope he has made a good few quid from them. When I was thinking about a centrally managed system of free books, he was the man I was thinking of who should write the books.

But my problem is not with the authors or the content or the copyright. It is the publishers. If we look at the example that I originally gave of the €16 third class text book (that is also a workbook, and which is accompanied by another separate workbook), that has to be publisher driven! If the Dept. identified a couple of excellent author/teachers and got them to produce the books we would have the same quality books provided to the children at a much cheaper cost. The only losers would be the publishers.

heldel00 · 27-07-2015 10:02pm

I wouldn't let the Department take charge of buying pencils never mind govern the books used in classrooms.

bajer101 · 27-07-2015 10:11pm

heldel00 wrote: »

I wouldn't let the Department take charge of buying pencils never mind govern the books used in classrooms.

But they already set the curriculum and hire the teachers and fund every other aspect of the educational system. Why are you happy to leave the production of the books to outside agencies whose main motive is profit?

heldel00 · 27-07-2015 10:26pm

bajer101 wrote: »

But they already set the curriculum and hire the teachers and fund every other aspect of the educational system. Why are you happy to leave the production of the books to outside agencies whose main motive is profit?

They have set a curriculum that is completely overloaded. It just cannot be realistically achieved by teachers and they have made a total mockery of newly qualified teachers with regards to pay cuts and Job-bridge scheme.
At least at the moment, interested teachers and educators are compiling books, whilst adhering to curriculum guidelines but I do agree that new editions need not be as regular. (More of a second level issue than primary.)

tigerboon · 27-07-2015 11:07pm

bajer101 wrote: »

OP here. My point is why I had to pay €16 for a book that has no copyright or patent. The publishers of these books appear to have entered into a cartel. Our government gave the schools funds to introduce a book rental scheme, but this scheme has become irrelevant as most of the text books have changed and are now "workbooks" which are exempt from this scheme. €16 for a workbook that cannot be sold on and which contains no new knowledge.

The comments about how much I spend on my books are irrelevant and miss the point. I have spent anything from 50c to €100 on a book. So what? I am talking about a €16 3rd class math book that is overpriced.

The comments about the cost of college books are also irrelevant. Again, my point is about the cost of primary school books.

The example I gave was that I paid €16 for a third class math book. There is not patent or copyright issue with the information in these type of books. €16 is a ridiculous amount of money to charge for these books,

And what is worse is that the new breed of schoolbooks seem to workbooks. You cannot sell them on or pass them on to younger relatives.

I paid €16 for a math book for my 8 year old child. This book contains information that was copied and pasted from existing knowledge and I cannot even gift that book to someone else. That's the crux of my argument.

The workbooks are a complete scam. Nobody minds paying for a book that a few kids will get the use of or can be sold on. What is wrong with doing the work in a copy that costs about 50 cent?

freshpopcorn · 27-07-2015 11:11pm

tigerboon wrote: »

The workbooks are a complete scam. Nobody minds paying for a book that a few kids will get the use of or can be sold on. What is wrong with doing the work in a copy that costs about 50 cent?

Workbooks benefit some children.

They can also prepare children for the sigma tests at the end of year.

opiniated · 27-07-2015 11:18pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

There is already book grant schemes for this which means they get books for free.

I don't qualify for a book grant. I believe, however, that my local (second level, I've no idea about primary level grants!), gives €60 to 1st years, and €50 to 4th years. Which is pretty paltry, considering most of the books cost around €30 each.

Lau2976 wrote: »

So you want to narrow down a teachers choice even further. And your not worried quality will decline?

On top of all the other preparation they already have to do. And what happens if a child transfers school? Or enrolls late? Or losses or damages a book.

No. I'm not worried that quality will decline. Why would it? If the books are covering the curriculum, and the majority of teachers select those particular books, why would it cause any decline in quality?

As to preparation? All they have to do is choose a book. Which is something they do, anyway!

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Ah there we go, Parents get to save not the taxpayers as a whole as Bajer seems interested in getting across. I have no issue with people looking out for themselves in their political views, but don't claim its to better society. It's not.

Except for the taxpayer who loses out.

As pointed out there is already help out there for the cost of books. Having children in Ireland is already subsidized and as I've pointed out before I have no issue with people getting the help when they need it I do have an issue with people who can pay the cost assosiated but instead want taxpayers to foot the bill.

I'll just reitterate myself here so nobody else will accuse me of being against a welfare state:

I believe wholeheartedly in a welfare state. :cool:

I suspect you didn't read my post!

My suggestion has nothing to do with the taxpayer!

The only cost to the taxpayer in my suggestion would be a couple of man hours (wages) in the Dept. of Education, inputting the various school orders into a spreadsheet to compile an order for the publishers.
Same publishers, same books, slightly smaller choice, but one the majority of teachers are happy with.
The Dept. would submit the order, and negotiate a price reduction on behalf of the parents, who would then pay the (lesser) cost of the books.

There is no disadvantage or cost to the taxpayer. (Maybe 2 or 3 cents (per taxpayer) per year to cover wages.
There are huge potential savings for parents.
It would encourage the authors to produce quality books, otherwise they wouldn't make the preferred books list.

The only possible loss is to the publishers. Who would have to supply the books at a bulk discount.

Nothing else would change. The books could even be issued through existing bookshops.

bajer101 wrote: »

I would definitely accept that the quango scenario would be a risk and we wouldn't want to see something like the Irish Water fiasco develop. But that alone is not a reason to shoot down an idea. It's a reason to be wary and to make sure that you learn from past mistakes. If we took the stance that we should not implement something that should be a good idea, just because mistakes were made in the past we would never implement any good ideas. I also don't accept that school management being landed with the management of the scheme is a valid argument. They already have to manage the book rental scheme. I think we are drifting away from the original point I was making about my belief that school books are over priced, but I think that a discussion about the merits of implementing a "free" book scheme is definitely worth having.

I definitely disagree with you about the publishers not being a cartel. The Government had to jump in and impose a "voluntary" code of conduct on them to stop them issuing new editions every couple of years. When a Government has to do that, that is nearly by definition a cartel. The voluntary code of conduct was a half measure and will fail as it is self regulated. This area will definitely be revisited. I believe that the upsurge in workbooks was the publisher's way of making up for the loss of revenue they suffered in having to sign up to the "voluntary" code of not re-issuing books every couple of years.

It's interesting that you mention the quality of the books and the best people designing them. This sounds like a saleman's spiel. In the report I read (which is a good few years old in fairness), this was the number one reason that teachers gave in their criteria for choosing a book, while cost was 7th on the list. The argument of the quality of the books falls down on the new variable in the equation - these textbooks are combined study and workbooks. They only have to last one year! After which they will be tossed away.

Have a look at the equivalent UK Maths book that I linked to earlier and which costs less than £5. You can do a "look inside". Quality of content looks spot on to me and you won't have to throw it away at the end of the year.

Anyway, I appreciate your comments and I am glad that the level of debate has moved up a notch. What started out as a bit of a rant from me has got me a bit more interested in the subject and I absolutely welcome the opinion and views from people at the coalface.

Fully agree with the bolded points.

Mardy Bum · 27-07-2015 11:22pm

opiniated wrote: »

I don't qualify for a book grant. I believe, however, that my local (second level, I've no idea about primary level grants!), gives €60 to 1st years, and €50 to 4th years. Which is pretty paltry, considering most of the books cost around €30 each.

I find this impossible to believe. It must be the lowest in the country. You get book tokens to a certain value well above that generally.

opiniated · 27-07-2015 11:59pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

I find this impossible to believe. It must be the lowest in the country. You get book tokens to a certain value well above that generally.

I'll be happy to PM you the telephone number of the school in question, if you want?

Whether you find it impossible to believe, or not, does not alter the fact that it is the simple truth!

Would you care to comment on my zero cost to the taxpayer suggestion on how to reduce the cost of schoolbooks?

Mardy Bum · 28-07-2015 12:02am

opiniated wrote: »

I'll be happy to PM you the telephone number of the school in question, if you want?

Whether you find it impossible to believe, or not, does not alter the fact that it is the simple truth!

The school must be in a very disadvantaged area or doesn't manage the system very well.

katydid · 28-07-2015 12:04am

bajer101 wrote: »

I ordered this book for my daughter today, I am looking forward to discovering what amazing new discovery in Maths that Folens have discovered that will justify them charging €16.40 for this book. Surely they can't be just rehashing existing knowledge and basically just copying and pasting that stuff and charging people this extortionate sum? This is crazy.
Educate Together schools are definitely a step in the right direction. But we have hopefully moved on. The next battle has to be about this nonsense of €16 maths books.

You seriously think a textbook is about copying and pasting? People put work into those books, and they deserve to have their work recognised.

Sixteen euro is very little for a textbook with illustrations.

knird evol · 28-07-2015 12:04am

School Books? !!!

ITS A GOOD BELT OF THE ROD THEY NEED.

opiniated · 28-07-2015 12:07am

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The school must be in a very disadvantaged area or doesn't manage the system very well.

I'll still be happy to PM the telephone number to you, so you can advise them of your opinion, if you're interested?

Surely if the school is in a disadvantaged area, it should ensure that more money would be available for the grant scheme, no?
If not, there are questions to be asked about how the much lauded scheme is administered!

Care to comment on my suggestion on how to reduce the cost of school books, without impacting the taxpayer?

purplecow1977 · 28-07-2015 12:11am

Do Educate Together schools not have to buy books???? Confused as to how they're the way to go.......

We operate a book rental scheme but even still, many parents choose to buy their own books, new! I can't understand it myself!

katydid · 28-07-2015 12:12am

bajer101 wrote: »

OP here. My point is why I had to pay €16 for a book that has no copyright or patent. T.

So what? Why is that a problem?

Mardy Bum · 28-07-2015 12:16am

opiniated wrote: »

I'll still be happy to PM the telephone number to you, so you can advise them of your opinion, if you're interested?

Surely if the school is in a disadvantaged area, it should ensure that more money would be available for the grant scheme, no?
If not, there are questions to be asked about how the much lauded scheme is administered!

Care to comment on my suggestion on how to reduce the cost of school books, without impacting the taxpayer?

Only if the school has DEIS status will it get more.

School books are reasonably cheap in comparison to some of the crap people pay for. 24 cans will get you a few primary school books. Books have improved a huge amount in recent years. They are of a very high quality and I believe it may make people respect it more. Some people see the cost in everything but the value in nothing.

katydid · 28-07-2015 12:16am

bajer101 wrote: »

Maybe I haven't articulated correctly why I believe that the €16 is extortionate and why I believe it is a racket. The main reason is because it is a workbook and it can't be sold or passed on. l

.

You'll pay at least ten euro for a mass-produced paperback with thin paper. You're buying a book with colour illustrations, produced on paper that isn't going to tear when small hands with pencils dig into it. You seem to be totally clueless about the real cost of things.

sm213 · 28-07-2015 12:20am

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Workbooks benefit some children.

They can also prepare children for the sigma tests at the end of year.

I did those sigma tests grand without all those workbooks tbh.
Who actually spouted that line first?

freshpopcorn · 28-07-2015 12:26am

sm213 wrote: »

I did those sigma tests grand without all those workbooks tbh.
Who actually spouted that line first?

Times change tough. The copy from your book to your copy doesn't work for every child tough and work books might benefit these children. Good teachers are willing to try various different methods to benefit the class.

katydid · 28-07-2015 12:31am

inocybe wrote: »

I never did, though I would have qualified. It isn't something that's publicized. My child's school uses a tablet instead of books now. Just got hit with a 150 yearly 'fee', along with a 100 'school fee'. Add that to the brand new crest they created for the uniform to keep the cartels in business, there's no attempt to keep costs down for parents. Something I hope the government will address eventually, I'm lobbying for some rules.

Where the uniform is concerned, it's up to you, as a parent, to get together with other parents, contact your representatives on the BOM etc., and tell them you don't want the whole crest thing. Or just refuse, as a group, to buy uniforms with crests.

katydid · 28-07-2015 12:36am

bajer101 wrote: »

My point about copyright and patent was that the knowledge and information in the books are not subject to copyright or patent. Pythagoras is not going to bring a court case! .

You can't be serious. You think all there is to producing a maths book is copying and pasting theorems and the like? Has it crossed your mind at all that the work that goes into the book is in putting across mathematical concepts in an age-appropriate way, and providing relevant and interesting exercises and examples for the child? Who do you think does that? I'll give you a hint - Pythagoras is long dead...

dubscottie · 28-07-2015 12:46am

Being from Scotland, I have never understood the whole school book thing in Ireland.

We were given school owned copies of textbooks at the start of the year and you had to had back in at the end.

The french text books we used were 10 years old but had the basics. You wrote or copied stuff in your "jotter" or notebook. (neat margins with the date or you got it from the teacher)

The only books that were updated every year (again provided by the school) were the Modern Studies books.

I can understand it in a high school to a point put for a primary/junior school 1+1=2 and that does not change so why a new book every year?

The_Valeyard · 28-07-2015 1:25am

dubscottie wrote: »

Being from Scotland, I have never understood the whole school book thing in Ireland.

We were given school owned copies of textbooks at the start of the year and you had to had back in at the end.

The french text books we used were 10 years old but had the basics. You wrote or copied stuff in your "jotter" or notebook. (neat margins with the date or you got it from the teacher)

The only books that were updated every year (again provided by the school) were the Modern Studies books.

I can understand it in a high school to a point put for a primary/junior school 1+1=2 and that does not change so why a new book every year?

The amount of cock drawings would be all over the pages, rips on others, Johnny luvz Debs, etc, not sure it would work.

opiniated · 28-07-2015 3:32pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Only if the school has DEIS status will it get more.

School books are reasonably cheap in comparison to some of the crap people pay for. 24 cans will get you a few primary school books. Books have improved a huge amount in recent years. They are of a very high quality and I believe it may make people respect it more. Some people see the cost in everything but the value in nothing.

I'm not interested in the amount of "crap" some people pay for.
I'm interested in trying to help people who want to educate their children, but genuinely struggle with the cost.

Again:

What is your opinion on my suggestion for reducing the cost of school books for parents of both primary and second level schools, which would be cost free to the taxpayer?

Attempting to divert the question, having been asked three times, leads me to speculate that you have a motive for not answering...

purplecow1977 · 28-07-2015 6:38pm

As class teacher I have always been very aware of the costs of books. Some years I inherited a booklist and had no control over it. This year the books in my class 6th cost 75E although that's not taking into account copies, folders or stationery. Majority of the books can be sold on or availed of in book rental scheme as they do not write in them. I do a fair bit of photocopying for history geography science as I do not have books for those. The Irish book this year seems to have to be written in, which I don't particularly want to do but waiting for some children to write a paragraph, others would have five written so sometimes it's just easier to write into something. I do not think 16E is extortionate for a book but I do understand that altogether with everything that is required and multiply that by two or more children and the costs add up.

Also we have a plain navy uniform and tracksuit but uniforms with the crest can be purchased if required.

katydid · 28-07-2015 7:48pm

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Also we have a plain navy uniform and tracksuit but uniforms with the crest can be purchased if required.

What do you mean "if required"?

BrokenArrows · 28-07-2015 7:52pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What's the problem again?

€16 is not extortionate for a school book. They're usually reasonably priced, and if you're complaining about the cost of school books at primary level, wait till your daughter is in college and you'll find out all about the extortionate cost of books.

His problem is that there is nothing new in the book. A new novel might be £16 quid but after a few years you can buy it new for significantly less. Why aren't maths books the same?
In fact they should be digital and given to students for free.

katydid · 28-07-2015 7:56pm

BrokenArrows wrote: »

His problem is that there is nothing new in the book. A new novel might be £16 quid but after a few years you can buy it new for significantly less. Why aren't maths books the same?
In fact they should be digital and given to students for free.

So the person that did the work compiling the book should not receive any royalties for it? Seriously?

Jogathon · 28-07-2015 8:14pm

I'm a teacher and I put a lot of thought into my book list every year. Price is not a factor that I consider.

Last year I had second and third class, and a total of 36 children with no sna in the class. I added an English workbook to my list, and I added an Irish book that they needed to write in. (Our Irish books are normally book rental). This was to make my job more manageable, to ensure that all could hit the target of my lesson without needing extra attention from me. I could focus on the children that needed me most. Yes, workbooks are not ideal, but sometimes they are necessary.

A maths workbook that you fill in. I had a mental maths book which took ten minutes daily. It revised topics daily so I didn't have to! Our main maths book is book rental. Third class is the youngest class to have a maths book available on book rental. Second class and below need the structure of a book to fill in still.

So, in short, I pick what I feel is most beneficial to the children, and I don't look at the price.

I also don't look at publishers! They send examples of all their books to us, I pick the one that I feel is the best. No hard sell, in fact, we tend to get turned off when we hear the Folens man or whoever is in, and avoid going into the hall!! Just drop the samples to the secretary, and I'll make up my own mind!

purplecow1977 · 28-07-2015 8:26pm

katydid wrote: »

What do you mean "if required"?

Apologies, I meant 'if desired'!

Mardy Bum · 28-07-2015 8:37pm

opiniated wrote: »

I'm not interested in the amount of "crap" some people pay for.
I'm interested in trying to help people who want to educate their children, but genuinely struggle with the cost.

Again:

What is your opinion on my suggestion for reducing the cost of school books for parents of both primary and second level schools, which would be cost free to the taxpayer?

Attempting to divert the question, having been asked three times, leads me to speculate that you have a motive for not answering...

It's a small investment parents have to make and those who can't can avail of book grants and other social welfare entitlements if they meet criteria.

My motive is that education is an investment that should be valued not costed and the children whose parents value education ALWAYS fair better in school because they can see their parents value it.

Everything in life is not free and the English System has a serious issue of kids having zero respect for their teachers because they are handed everything.

katydid · 28-07-2015 9:17pm

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Apologies, I meant 'if desired'!

Ok, but I don't really understand. You mean the crested stuff is optional? Why would parents want to fork out big money for crested stuff when the generic stuff is so much cheaper.

katydid · 28-07-2015 9:18pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Everything in life is not free and the English System has a serious issue of kids having zero respect for their teachers because they are handed everything.

When I worked in England, you had to hand out the books at the beginning of the class and take them back at the end, so they couldn't take them home to do homework.

purplecow1977 · 28-07-2015 9:39pm

katydid wrote: »

Ok, but I don't really understand. You mean the crested stuff is optional? Why would parents want to fork out big money for crested stuff when the generic stuff is so much cheaper.

I guess you'd have to ask them!

I'm not sure it's 'big money' as they got a good deal I think, but I assume the generic navy would be far cheaper. Many of them have the crested jumper though, and crested jackets. But it is not a requirement at all. Just some 'like' to have it.

katydid · 28-07-2015 9:45pm

purplecow1977 wrote: »

I guess you'd have to ask them!

I'm not sure it's 'big money' as they got a good deal I think, but I assume the generic navy would be far cheaper. Many of them have the crested jumper though, and crested jackets. But it is not a requirement at all. Just some 'like' to have it.

It mus be strange if some kids go round with crests on their uniforms and some not. Not exactly "uniform", is it? Isn't one of the points of uniform supposed to be to make all kids the same, and not show difference between rich and poor - but this way you have richer parents buying crested clothes...

purplecow1977 · 28-07-2015 9:53pm

Not really. On paper you might think that might be the case but it's really not. No heed is given.

Aineoil · 28-07-2015 10:15pm

I don't want to derail this thread but after 28 years of teaching I am not sure of the value of homework in primary school.

The pressure homework puts on children and parents is too negative. Where does a child get the time to interact with all other activities, be it sport, music. or whatever?

The theory of multiple intelligences is something I agree with. There are many intelligences as of the following -

Existential, intrapersonal, interpersonal, naturlistic, bodily–kinesthetic, logical–mathematical, verbal–linguistic, visual–spatial, musical–rhythmic and harmonic.

We are all different, thank goodness.

opiniated · 28-07-2015 11:35pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

It's a small investment parents have to make and those who can't can avail of book grants and other social welfare entitlements if they meet criteria.

My motive is that education is an investment that should be valued not costed and the children whose parents value education ALWAYS fair better in school because they can see their parents value it.

Everything in life is not free and the English System has a serious issue of kids having zero respect for their teachers because they are handed everything.

So, you're motivation is that you should spend double the amount, on the exact same books, to prove that you value education?
With respect, that is highly illogical.

Again, I have not suggested that the books should be free.
I have suggested that the Dept of Education should negotiate a discount, based on bulk buying. Parents would still pay for the books. There is no cost to the taxpayer. Existing bookshops still distribute the books. Teachers still choose the books.

There is absolutely no loss - to anyone - except the publishers profit margins.

Your failure to address this, by being, I suspect, deliberately obtuse, suggests that your motivation is based more on concern for publishers profit margins than any other factor, since there is no loss involved for anyone else.

katydid · 29-07-2015 8:55am

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Not really. On paper you might think that might be the case but it's really not. No heed is given.

Exactly! What I've been saying all along in regard to uniforms v ordinary clothes...

katydid · 29-07-2015 9:05am

Aineoil wrote: »

I don't want to derail this thread but after 28 years of teaching I am not sure of the value of homework in primary school.

The pressure homework puts on children and parents is too negative. Where does a child get the time to interact with all other activities, be it sport, music. or whatever?

The theory of multiple intelligences is something I agree with. There are many intelligences as of the following -

Existential, intrapersonal, interpersonal, naturlistic, bodily–kinesthetic, logical–mathematical, verbal–linguistic, visual–spatial, musical–rhythmic and harmonic.

We are all different, thank goodness.

The kind of homework many kids get is worthless, for the reasons you stated. Work for the sake of it is not helpful, especially in large amounts. BUT homework can be useful in terms of self study skills, reinforcement of learning etc.. It should be given only when necessary and for a clear purpose. I would not like to see no homework at primary level; I worked in a couple of schools in England where the kids came from primary schools with a no homework policy, and they found it very hard to adapt to that element of secondary

zeffabelli · 29-07-2015 10:00am

Aineoil wrote: »

I don't want to derail this thread but after 28 years of teaching I am not sure of the value of homework in primary school.

The pressure homework puts on children and parents is too negative. Where does a child get the time to interact with all other activities, be it sport, music. or whatever?

The theory of multiple intelligences is something I agree with. There are many intelligences as of the following -

Existential, intrapersonal, interpersonal, naturlistic, bodily–kinesthetic, logical–mathematical, verbal–linguistic, visual–spatial, musical–rhythmic and harmonic.

We are all different, thank goodness.

On BBC 4 radio there are a number of terrific podcasts from leading educators. In one of them, sorry I can't remember which one, he cites that they already know that homework is pointless, and we still do it.

Education is about 60 years behind the research.

Especially now when kids have two working parents.....there simply may not be the time at home for this....and just adds to the stress of homelife. If they want to continue homework then they need to start implementing after school homework clubs, which as arguably also a dumb idea.

purplecow1977 · 29-07-2015 11:00am

I prefer to have uniforms rather than ordinary clothes.

School Books rip offs

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