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Phil Hogan and Parish Pump politics [MERGED WITH MOD WARNING]

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24

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    #32
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    Yeah, settled people never have fights... and we all know travelers always fight, and never stop right? And that every member of the families feuding are violent thugs?

    And that deep down travellers are not civilized people, but as an Irish judge recently put it, Neanderthals.

    For gods sake.

    Prejudice against travelers and poor people are the last two forms of blatant discrimination that are acceptable.
    I have no idea what part of my post triggered that diatribe of nonsense.

    You'll notice I didn't refer to whether the families are settled or traveller.

    If two families are known to be in dispute, then when seeking to allocate housing, it would make sense not to house one near the other, for the benefit both of those families and their local community.

    This is regardless of whether they're travellers or not. Surely that's reasonable?


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    #33
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    He has no business involving himself in local council matters. If the locals had an issue they should have approached their elected representatives in the local council rather than a national politician/minister.

    I am not commenting on this specific case as it is not the point of the thread but in your scenario those areas that have a minister would be in an advantage to other areas with no minister. This goes against the whole notion of a republic and a county council system.
    Hogan should be focusing on his own job. If he has spare time he could give a dig out down at the department of health. A national politician should definitely not be interfering in councils housing arrangements.

    If ministers didn't get involved in local issues then they would never get elected for a second term. As has been shown in this case, he had no power to change anything but he was perfectly entitled to have his say.


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    #34
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Slurryface wrote: »
    Any chance you can provide any evidence of either the anti social behaviour

    It's hard to find a link to the letter, but here's a comment made by Hogan about the matter
    "This is not anything to do with the Carty family per se, but an anti-social behaviour issue, which I have to bring to the attention of the Council if local people there have certain concerns.


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    #35
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,464 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Has anybody seen the latter or is this a case of calling racism because there's a traveller family involved?

    The letter itself has been published in the Irish Daily Mail, and was shown on Vincent Browne last night.

    It is a short letter, I cannot remember the exact wording, but it simply states that the family in question would not be getting a house in the area and that he (Phil Hogan) was glad to be of assistance in the matter. The letter also names the family in question, which is an absolute disgrace in my view considering it was sent to a number of constituents. It will be interesting to see the rest of the correspondence on the matter, as this is clearly just the tail end of the story. In particular, his representation to the council should illuminate the situation further.

    It is a gross abuse of power for the Minister to be interfering in the process and it is also likely to be illegal - however leaving that aside it is just plain bad form the way the Minister humiliated the family in such a way. The family does not even have a record of criminality or anti-social behaviour.

    What makes it worse is the fact that Hogan, being the brute that he is, is not even apologetic in regards the matter.


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    #36
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    The letter itself has been published in the Irish Daily Mail, and was shown on Vincent Browne last night.

    Post the link then


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    #37
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,464 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Post the link then

    Here you go - 22:13 in to be precise.

    Also worth nothing that, according to the author of the article, the Gardai have launched an investigation into alleged harassment being directed at the family (specifically in once case a family member was threatened that he could be shot via a letter received).


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    #38
    Slurryface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 225 ✭✭Slurryface


    MagicSean wrote: »
    If ministers didn't get involved in local issues then they would never get elected for a second term. As has been shown in this case, he had no power to change anything but he was perfectly entitled to have his say.
    He was most certainly NOT entitled to assure those who contacted him that he would ensure the family were not housed, as is their right to be.


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    #39
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Slurryface wrote: »
    He was most certainly NOT entitled to assure those who contacted him that he would ensure the family were not housed, as is their right to be.

    Yes I said that was a stupid thing to have done.


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    #40
    Lantus
    Registered Users Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    There are 3 things wrong with what has happened here: -

    1/ I'm sure most of us have received letters by councillers and TD's who claim to of 'solved' or been instrumental in dealing with local issues. Most of these in my experience tend to be gross exagerations. In several cases we have have local representatives find out about things our Residents association has done and then take that information and send everyone a letter claiming that they were 'instrumental' in helping to achieve this. In some cases for example they use reports that the public would be hard pushed to get a hold of to announce that they are going to get much needed traffic lights installed when an independant traffic reports requires anyway and claim that they are the big fish making this happen.

    Its all about securing votes at a local level.
    Its about maintaining their support and power base.
    Its about keeping their jobs and pensions.

    Its also very hard to question their claims as individual houses for the most part would have no interest to do so or inclination. Or any real ability to know where to look for the information to dispute it.

    The wording is also so 'vague' that even though it is obvious they are trying to take credit they can easily wriggle out of it by saying that they were part of a meeting or were just kept in the loop. One of the womnderful things about how we an manipulate the language to mean what we want it to mean.

    2/ Naming another family is severly wrong. Surely a data protection issue here? Morally and ethically I find it very disturbing.

    3/ taking pleasure in seeing a family excluded from a certain part of society. Again morally wrong and only serves to highlight the fact that TDs are unable to solve problems.


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    #41
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Here you go - 22:13 in to be precise.

    You could have warned us that there was about 2 minutes of ads to wade through :(

    So anyhow, the text of the letter reads:
    Just a note to let you know that the Carthy family will not be allocated a house in your area.

    An another quote from Hogan
    The Minister denied his letter was in any way discriminatory and said he acted in good faith in responding to the concerns of local people and rejected suggestions he had put pressure on the local authority not to house the McCarthy family.

    "I brought (the letter) in good faith on behalf of the local people the concerns they had. The decisions were made by the country manager and the director of housing, and I didn't ask them to change the decision," he said.

    “If families make representations to me, as a local deputy I have to respond
    and I have to give that information which they may not have been aware of in the local authority,” he added.


    It appears that Hogan was responding to letters/representations made to him by his constituents, who presumably would have named the family whom they were objecting to being housed in the area (I know I would name any person/organisation I was complaining about in a letter if I were in a similar situation), so I think it's natural they he would respond with the name of the family in any subsequent correspondence so I don't see the big deal there.

    Apart from the stating that the family would not be housed, I don't see that he did anything unusual.


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    #42
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »

    I am not commenting on this specific case as it is not the point of the thread but in your scenario those areas that have a minister would be in an advantage to other areas with no minister. This goes against the whole notion of a republic and a county council system.
    Hogan should be focusing on his own job. If he has spare time he could give a dig out down at the department of health. A national politician should definitely not be interfering in councils housing arrangements.

    That is exactly what I am getting at, not the traveller aspect.
    Seems to me this debate is long over due in the house. A very clear delineation of the duties of a TD needs to be discussed and the way we elect representatives to the Dail


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    #43
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    southsiderosie wrote: »
    MOD NOTE:

    Can people posting on this thread please link to the appropriate article if you are going to make claims about the letter involved or the family involved. "Word on the street" is not going to cut it here.

    Why merge? It's just gonna be a mess of a thread now. :mad:


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    #44
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    The reality is, local patronage is the same here as it is for every democracy in the world.
    We call it parish-pump, the USA call it 'pork'.

    I do wonder though... what was the motivation of the housing officer / manager who signed off on moving this family into said area?
    It's probable they knew of the local opposition to the move and the reasons behind it.

    Phil Hogan was asked by his constituants to represent them on this matter.
    He did so.
    He (stupidly) wrote a "high-five" letter claiming the win.

    Yes it may have overstepped his mandate.
    However what mandate does the housing officer who sanctioned the move have? Are they completely unanswerable to the citizens of that town?


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    #45
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    antoobrien wrote: »
    It appears that Hogan was responding to letters/representations made to him by his constituents, who presumably would have named the family whom they were objecting to being housed in the area (I know I would name any person/organisation I was complaining about in a letter if I were in a similar situation), so I think it's natural they he would respond with the name of the family in any subsequent correspondence so I don't see the big deal there.

    Apart from the stating that the family would not be housed, I don't see that he did anything unusual.
    It's not great, that's about the best way I can put it.

    Even if he was corresponding directly with people who had named the family, I don't think it was appropriate to have given out the detail of the housing authority's decision, as this is effectively private information pertaining to the family in question.

    A more appropriate response would have been along the lines of

    Dear <Name>,

    Thank you for your recent correspondence in relation to housing matters in <area>, and have received similar correspondence from a number of local residents. The issue of anti-social behaviour is a serious one which I do not take lightly.

    Housing allocation is a matter for the county manager and the director of housing, and the decision they have made in this matter has satisfied me that it will not cause the community to be impacted by anti-social behaviour.

    I trust this will be to your satisfaction.

    etc...

    Exact same thing, but without revealing any information or making yourself look like an idiot.


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    #46
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,464 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    antoobrien wrote: »


    It appears that Hogan was responding to letters/representations made to him by his constituents, who presumably would have named the family whom they were objecting to being housed in the area (I know I would name any person/organisation I was complaining about in a letter if I were in a similar situation), so I think it's natural they he would respond with the name of the family in any subsequent correspondence so I don't see the big deal there.

    Apart from the stating that the family would not be housed, I don't see that he did anything unusual.

    It would seem that Mr Hogan made representations to the council on the matter, and we all know only too well that Ministers have a great amount of influence over the decisions undertaken by the County Manager and his team - Mr Hogan's influence would be even greater than other ministers considering the fact that he controls the Department of Local Government.

    So far Mr Hogan has refused to detail his representations to the council on the matter - that in itself it suspicious.

    In anycase, he should not have divulged the information in the way he did - and he clearly wanted to claim the 'credit' associated with this family being denied housing.


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    #47
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    seamus wrote: »
    Even if he was corresponding directly with people who had named the family, I don't think it was appropriate to have given out the detail of the housing authority's decision, as this is effectively private information pertaining to the family in question.

    I don't get how you think it's private information, as it will also the person/people that made the original representation as well (assuming they are local), especially considering the fact that they'll find out son enough if the family in question move in. E.g. It's not an invasion of privacy if I rent a house and my landlord says to my future neighbours there's a young lad from Galway moving in.

    The only thing that bothers me about the whole affair is where he got his information out of, either he told that they wouldn't be housed there and passed this information on in good faith (assuming that the family Carthy/McCarthy family had also been told) or he was being pig headed and assumed that because he wrote a letter the council officers would see things his way (if they're anything like the shower we have in Galway that was never going to happen).

    If it's the latter, then he should resign for being a blithering idiot, but if it was the former then there are serious questions to be asked as to why he was mislead.


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    #48
    Technocentral
    Registered Users Posts: 6,101 ✭✭✭Technocentral


    Typical isn't it? A basically decent person like Shorthall resigns whereas the prejudiced low life's like Hogan never do.


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    #49
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    T
    The family does not even have a record of criminality or anti-social behaviour.

    Maybe they dont, I know of a family like that too, known but have no real record, when I told them I would report them regarding their actions, I was discreetly threatened.
    I've no doubt why people like this have no record.


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    #50
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    It is the ones without a record you have to be careful of then yeah?:rolleyes:


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    #51
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    It is the ones without a record you have to be careful of then yeah?:rolleyes:

    You said that, Im saying I was threatened when i said id report someone for an activity they are involved in, some people dont have records because they dont have a reason to have one, others dont have one but do.


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    #52
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,770 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    wow hogan slimed the family, the issue of anti-social behaviour were about another family


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    #53
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Merch wrote: »
    Maybe they dont, I know of a family like that too, known but have no real record, when I told them I would report them regarding their actions, I was discreetly threatened.
    I've no doubt why people like this have no record.

    People like what exactly?


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    #54
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    This country is crying out for an end of petrol pump politics from our nationally elected TDs and ministers. Hogan should have left the issue with his FG councillors who were elected in Kilkenny to deal with such matters.


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    #55
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    People like what exactly?
    My neighbours, anti social behaviour is a by-word for them,
    similarily I have had experiences of assault at the hands of others like them too,all the same background.
    My experience tells me stay away from them where possible and while I even had an open mind about it in the past after these instances, now I wish to have no dealings with them whatsoever and can appreciate when someone else doesnt either.
    I'll avoid them where possible, I would never turn my back to them, if you cant understand that then you fortunately haven't had my experiences of them.


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    #56
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,464 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Merch wrote: »
    Maybe they dont, I know of a family like that too, known but have no real record, when I told them I would report them regarding their actions, I was discreetly threatened.
    I've no doubt why people like this have no record.

    Come off it - you will find that in this case it has been the family itself that has been at the receiving end of threatening letters and comments.


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    #57
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Come off it - you will find that in this case it has been the family itself that has been at the receiving end of threatening letters and comments.

    Come off it? are you saying Im just making it up, in my case i have been threatened,
    You are effectively saying you have intimate knowledge of these people and all their dealings and are fully aware they have never engaged in anti social behaviour.
    Based on 100% of my experiences I find that hard to believe.
    It seems you are surmising, well I surmise that its unlikely they would be so vehemently disliked that someone/a number of people would go to this lenght without some cause.
    Maybe they are victims,if so I sympathise, but my experience doesnt tally with that.

    and other experiences I hear, are virtually totally negative, do tally.
    Even those that are without fault in that group (unsure what to call them for fear of being rounded on by the PC brigade) protect those that are with fault.


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    #58
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,464 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Merch wrote: »
    Come off it? are you saying Im just making it up, in my case i have been threatened,

    You are claiming that there is a likelihood that this family has intimidated others to ensure that there have been no complaints made against them. The reality is that there is no evidence to suggest that this family has been engaged in anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Evidence does however illustrate that the family itself has been receiving harassing correspondence since attempting to move into the locality.

    I suggest you backup your thinly veiled assertion that this family has intimated others - if you cannot then you should drop the issue in my view.


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    #59
    Merch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,327 ✭✭✭Merch


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    You are claiming that there is a likelihood that this family has intimidated others to ensure that there have been no complaints made against them. The reality is that there is no evidence to suggest that this family has been engaged in anti-social behaviour or criminal activity. Evidence does however illustrate that the family itself has been receiving harassing correspondence since attempting to move into the locality.

    I suggest you backup your thinly veiled assertion that this family has intimated others - if you cannot then you should drop the issue in my view.

    Im not claiming it, I said along the lines its possible, it may or may not have happened, you said they have never, I repsonded by saying unless you have intimate knowledge of their every movement and action they you really dont know that, it could well be quite possible.

    I didnt assert anything, so Im not backing it up as i didnt say it, I SAID ITS POSSIBLE.
    I suggets you back up that they have never, see? its impossible for either of us to do that.
    Drop it? drop the PC stuff yourself, some of them are engaged in anti social stuff, experienced it myself, way more than from others.

    Then hiding behind the discrimination card.
    If you had repeated negative interactions with them, that might colour your view a bit.


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    #60
    Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭Toshchiy Imperatritsy Vselennoy


    He is the worst minister in the cabinet.

    There are a million reasons for him to resign or be fired...this is just the latest one.


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    #61
    touts
    Registered Users Posts: 6,438 ✭✭✭touts


    It's a fundamental part of our political system that the local TD lobbies on behalf of people. He/she lobbies to get them a medical card. He/she lobbies to get them planning permission. He/she lobbies to get their estate taken over by the council. He/she lobbies to get speed bumps installed. He/she lobbies to....... etc etc etc

    The locals did not want this family next door to them so Hogan lobbied for them. It is THEIR opinions and then the nature of the political system people should be directing their focus onto. If Hogan resigned the locals still would not want this family and the political system would still be based on electing the best pot hole fillers.


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