Phil Hogan and Parish Pump politics [MERGED WITH MOD WARNING]

Happyman42 · 26-09-2012 1:31pm #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0926/phil-hogan-traveller-family-house.html

Leaving aside the traveller aspect of the letter, should a minister be interfering in housing issues like this at all?
Isn't it the time for our govenors to address this percieved 'ministerial duty' and lay down stringent proceedures and guidelines so that constituents know that it is pointless to approach a minister over local issues like this? Or is it impossible to stop it?

MOD WARNING: If you are going to make specific claims about a) the letter involved, or b) the family involved in this case, you need to provide a link. Hearsay and 'word on the street' is not going to cut it here.

Canvasser · 26-09-2012 1:34pm

It appears that Phil Hogan has abused his position as Minister to deny a traveller family a house. The family in question is perfectly peaceful and law abiding. This looks like a serious case of bigotry. Sinn Fein tried to raise the matter in the Dáil but were prevented from doing so by a very partisan Sean Barrett (the Ceann Comhairle). Eamon O Cuiv of Fianna Fáil said that a minister interfering in a housing allocation process to prevent a Traveller family being housed on the basis of them being Travellers would be "an extraordinary abuse of power", as well as being illegal.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0926/phil-hogan-traveller-family-house.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/phil-hogan-travellers-610561-Sep2012/?utm_source=facebook_self&utm_medium=thejournal&utm_campaign=from_page

Canvasser · 26-09-2012 1:41pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0926/phil-hogan-traveller-family-house.html

Leaving aside the traveller aspect of the letter, should a minister be interfering in housing issues like this at all?
Isn't it the time for our govenors to address this percieved 'ministerial duty' and lay down stringent proceedures and guidelines so that constituents know that it is pointless to approach a minister over local issues like this? Or is it impossible to stop it?

How can you leave aside the racist and bigotted nature of the letter?

Fenian Army · 26-09-2012 1:43pm

of course. Probably won't be though.

Manach · 26-09-2012 1:44pm

Canvasser wrote: »

How can you leave aside the racist and bigotted nature of the letter?

Because there are so many other problems with the country that the faux-outrage of the chattering classes.

Merch · 26-09-2012 1:46pm

what was racist and bigoted?
It said a family named wouldnt be housed in the area.

Clearly that leaves a lot of room that there are some details omitted, as a person that has experienced threats and harrasment from travellers I can see what that could be. Maybe that is not the case, but a newspaper article has suggested otherwise.

What I would suggest is a minister shouldnt be dealing with this, but in my experience, the Gardai, the council etc dont want to, so i can see how a person would approach a minister. It should be a Garda/council issue? or a counciller but as they may want to advance their position its likely a hot potato they dont want to touch.

Laminations · 26-09-2012 1:46pm

Hogan should consider his position, and step down

Happyman42 · 26-09-2012 1:47pm

Canvasser wrote: »

How can you leave aside the racist and bigotted nature of the letter?

eh, because it gets in the way of the substantive issue I wanted to raise?

Merch · 26-09-2012 1:52pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

eh, because it gets in the way of the substantive issue I wanted to raise?

The problem is, you can (and I have not done this for any issue) approach a person that can try resolve things or bump you up the Que regarding your complaint or go to the people that should deal with it but it goes nowhere?

So guidelines could be drawn up and should be really, but unless the Gardai/Councils etc deal with issues (any local issues) then people will always go to Ministers.

VinLieger · 26-09-2012 2:08pm

My main problem with this is how is a politicians so stupid as to put something like this in writing?

antoobrien · 26-09-2012 2:15pm

oops - wrong minister, always get those two confused.

Merch · 26-09-2012 2:15pm

VinLieger wrote: »

My main problem with this is how is a politicians so stupid as to put something like this in writing?

I agree it is stupid to put in writing, but not being in writing (or provable) but still happening is not somehow better,
all assuming there wasn't some issue that complainants had about the people in question, some real issue that wasn't otherwise being dealt with.

Ministers shouldnt be involved in local issues really, but if a council or the Gardai were effective then it would be known iof there was an issue and it would be dealt with accordingly, however you cannot speak of theissues some people create because then people that have never experience dealings with anti social behavior from anyone shout loudest bigotry, discrimination, racism etc
I find it hard to believe there was not some underlying issue, Im shocked that I would see P Hogan has done something/dealt with an issue, that I would agree with.
The newspaper article said there was a previous issue of anti social behaviour (Im relying on a newspaper has this accurately), but if that is the case, what is so wrong with that being pointed out.
If the councils cant or wont deal with it, why is it a problem to point at it and say its wrong.

I saw the letter on Vincent browne last night, effectively it said, that the named family wouldnt be housed in the said area.
What is racist,discriminatory/bigoted about that
If they were involved in the activity suggested in the paper then what do they expect?

Pawwed Rig · 26-09-2012 2:20pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

Isn't it the time for our govenors to address this percieved 'ministerial duty' and lay down stringent proceedures and guidelines so that constituents know that it is pointless to approach a minister over local issues like this? Or is it impossible to stop it?

Because one does it they all have to do it unfortunately. I agree with you that it should be stopped for all TD's. If they are only interested in local issues then they should not be in the Dail. I would like to think a Ministers sole focus is getting our country out of the gutter rather than worrying about what family lives where.
Congrats to the local council for ignoring him and imo making him look like a right twit.

Grudaire · 26-09-2012 2:24pm

He really hasn't been a good environment minister either.. I'd have sacked him before this came out as well

20Cent · 26-09-2012 2:26pm

Everything he touches turns into a disaster big liability for FG he should get the boot.

antoobrien · 26-09-2012 2:33pm

Canvasser wrote: »

It appears that Phil Hogan has abused his position as Minister to deny a traveller family a house. The family in question is perfectly peaceful and law abiding. This looks like a serious case of bigotry. Sinn Fein tried to raise the matter in the Dáil but were prevented from doing so by a very partisan Sean Barrett (the Ceann Comhairle). Eamon O Cuiv of Fianna Fáil said that a minister interfering in a housing allocation process to prevent a Traveller family being housed on the basis of them being Travellers would be "an extraordinary abuse of power", as well as being illegal.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0926/phil-hogan-traveller-family-house.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/phil-hogan-travellers-610561-Sep2012/?utm_source=facebook_self&utm_medium=thejournal&utm_campaign=from_page

O'Cuiv & SF can't talk, they didn't say much when the locals effectively blocked Galway city council wanting to buy a house for a traveller family with a special needs child.

More opposition hypocrisy disguised as policy outrage.

Grudaire · 26-09-2012 2:39pm

antoobrien wrote: »

O'Cuiv & SF can't talk, they didn't say much when the locals effectively blocked Galway city council wanting to buy a house for a traveller family with a special needs child.

More opposition hypocrisy disguised as policy outrage.

So if a different opposition party says it - would it be ok? Or is it ok for our Government to do it because the Shinners did before?

http://www.greenparty.ie/news.html?n=125

(I'm pretty sure the Greens haven't been involved in this sort of thing.)

antoobrien · 26-09-2012 2:45pm

Cliste wrote: »

So if a different opposition party says it - would it be ok? Or is it ok for our Government to do it because the Shinners did before?

http://www.greenparty.ie/news.html?n=125

(I'm pretty sure the Greens haven't been involved in this sort of thing.)

No, just point out hypocrisy where it raises it's head. Don't know of any greens active in Galway since O'Brollachain got the boot or I'd raise them as targets as well. Donal Lyons (ind/former PD) is the only one I can recall even talking about the matter in Galway, so the rest of them haven't exactly covered themselves in glory coming to the aid of travellers.

The fact that its coming (at least in part) from O'Cuiv, who is the TD for the family in Galway, is a bit galling imo.

antoobrien · 26-09-2012 2:47pm

Has anybody seen the latter or is this a case of calling racism because there's a traveller family involved?

Grudaire · 26-09-2012 2:53pm

antoobrien wrote: »

No, just point out hypocrisy where it raises it's head. Don't know of any greens active in Galway since O'Brollachain got the boot or I'd raise them as targets as well. Donal Lyons (ind/former PD) is the only one I can recall even talking about the matter in Galway, so the rest of them haven't exactly covered themselves in glory coming to the aid of travellers.

The fact that its coming (at least in part) from O'Cuiv, who is the TD for the family in Galway, is a bit galling imo.

Raise them as targets?!

You have as of yet failed to even acknowledge that Phil Hogan is definitely in the wrong on this one.

I don't know offhand but a quick google comes up with http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/community/noonan-criticises-council-s-unease-over-traveller-issue-1-3759138 - so now does Malcom Noonan have the right to question Phil Hogan, or what would you say to him?

The primary issue here isn't what any opposition parties have done, and I do worry if you think it is.

Slurryface · 26-09-2012 2:55pm

Yes

antoobrien · 26-09-2012 2:59pm

Cliste wrote: »

Raise them as targets?!

You have as of yet failed to even acknowledge that Phil Hogan is definitely in the wrong on this one.

I don't know offhand but a quick google comes up with http://www.kilkennypeople.ie/community/noonan-criticises-council-s-unease-over-traveller-issue-1-3759138 - so now does Malcom Noonan have the right to question Phil Hogan, or what would you say to him?

The primary issue here isn't what any opposition parties have done, and I do worry if you think it is.

What has a vote to do with recognising an ethnic group (which have been proven to be not a genetically distinct ethnic group by travellers themselves) got to do with the non housing of a family - traveller or not?

I asked this question in the other thread, so I'll ask it here, has anybody seen the letter in question?

Would the same furore be raised if it was my family that was refused housing?

How do we know that there is no resonable explanation for stating that the family will not be housed in the area (e.g. finding suitable housing as was the issue with the case I pointed out in Galway)?

seamus · 26-09-2012 3:03pm

From the journal piece:

It is understood that Hogan intervened in the matter after receiving representations regarding a dispute between two families in the area in the past. He was told that the McCarthy’s should not be housed in a place “where there was a potential for conflict”, the Mail reports.

In that context, it would seem reasonable that if the McCarthy family were in dispute with another family, that they would avoid housing the two in close proximity. Don't see any issue there.

Does anyone have an actual copy of the letter so it can be read in full context?

MagicSean · 26-09-2012 3:53pm

I'm no fan of Mr Hogan. I find him to be a terrible politician and useless as regards his job but i think this situation has been twisted

My understanding of this is as following. The council had plans to move a family into a house. A number of residents contacted Phil Hogan as their representative to complain about this proposed move as the family in question had a history of anti-social behaviour and were involved in a feud with another resident family. Phil Hogan then wrote to the council and informed them of this and asked that the family not be placed there. He then wrote to the people who had contacted him and told them the famly would not be moved in. The council promptly ignored his request and moved them in anyway.

If this is indeed the case serious questions need to be asked of why the council moved in a family involved in a feud with other residents despite being told of this problem. Did they do it because they go in a huff about Phil getting involved?

Now as it turns out this family is a traveller family. Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein have jumped on this as proof Phil Hogan is a racist. i find this to be ridiculous. If a family is badly behaved they should be treated as such. They do not deserve some kind of immunity because they happen to be travellers. Any kind of different treatment based on ethnicity, even good treatment, is surely inherently racist.

Now my understanding is based on what I've read on this so far today so it's possible I'm incorrect. But based on the facts I have stated above i believe that the only criticism Phil Hogan deserves in this situation is that he should not have written to his constituents prematurely. Maybe he thought his influence was more than it actually was. Or maybe the council paniced when they heard about the letter and feared they would be called racist. Whatever the case it was a stupid thing to do. But otherwise i don't see anything wrong with what he has done.

Grudaire · 26-09-2012 3:54pm

Well I'm glad you've come to actually talk about it instead of mud slinging

antoobrien wrote: »

I asked this question in the other thread, so I'll ask it here, has anybody seen the letter in question?

How do we know that there is no resonable explanation for stating that the family will not be housed in the area (e.g. finding suitable housing as was the issue with the case I pointed out in Galway)?

These are quite valid points, until the full story is out there we won't know.

Don't forget the truth might be worse than the rumours

It is understood that Hogan intervened in the matter after receiving representations regarding a dispute between two families in the area in the past. He was told that the McCarthy’s should not be housed in a place “where there was a potential for conflict”, the Mail reports.

It doesn't go as far to say that it is the same two families in question...

If it was the same two families then it should be a valid factor as long as the family is not worse off by not being allocated that house.

If on the other hand there is good reason to house them there (which presumably the committee who decided that it was thought so) then why should the minister be jumping around making promises?

MagicSean · 26-09-2012 3:56pm

seamus wrote: »

From the journal piece:

In that context, it would seem reasonable that if the McCarthy family were in dispute with another family, that they would avoid housing the two in close proximity. Don't see any issue there.

Does anyone have an actual copy of the letter so it can be read in full context?

This is my view too. I think he should be sacked but not because of this fiasco just because he is generally pretty bad.

Ash.J.Williams · 26-09-2012 3:56pm

All he did wrong was send a letter looking for "high fives" afterwards.

Fenian Army · 26-09-2012 3:56pm

seamus wrote: »

From the journal piece:

In that context, it would seem reasonable that if the McCarthy family were in dispute with another family, that they would avoid housing the two in close proximity. Don't see any issue there.

Does anyone have an actual copy of the letter so it can be read in full context?

Yeah, settled people never have fights... and we all know travelers always fight, and never stop right? And that every member of the families feuding are violent thugs?

And that deep down travellers are not civilized people, but as an Irish judge recently put it, Neanderthals.

For gods sake.

Prejudice against travelers and poor people are the last two forms of blatant discrimination that are acceptable.

Slurryface · 26-09-2012 3:57pm

MagicSean wrote: »

I'm no fan of Mr Hogan. I find him to be a terrible politician and useless as regards his job but i think this situation has been twisted

My understanding of this is as following. The council had plans to move a family into a house. A number of residents contacted Phil Hogan as their representative to complain about this proposed move as the family in question had a history of anti-social behaviour and were involved in a feud with another resident family. Phil Hogan then wrote to the council and informed them of this and asked that the family not be placed there. He then wrote to the people who had contacted him and told them the famly would not be moved in. The council promptly ignored his request and moved them in anyway.

If this is indeed the case serious questions need to be asked of why the council moved in a family involved in a feud with other residents despite being told of this problem. Did they do it because they go in a huff about Phil getting involved?

Now as it turns out this family is a traveller family. Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein have jumped on this as proof Phil Hogan is a racist. i find this to be ridiculous. If a family is badly behaved they should be treated as such. They do not deserve some kind of immunity because they happen to be travellers. Any kind of different treatment based on ethnicity, even good treatment, is surely inherently racist.

Now my understanding is based on what I've read on this so far today so it's possible I'm incorrect. But based on the facts I have stated above i believe that the only criticism Phil Hogan deserves in this situation is that he should not have written to his constituents prematurely. Maybe he thought his influence was more than it actually was. Or maybe the council paniced when they heard about the letter and feared they would be called racist. Whatever the case it was a stupid thing to do. But otherwise i don't see anything wrong with what he has done.

Any chance you can provide any evidence of either the anti social behaviour or the alleged fued and this families part in it. Clearly the council would have investigated any allegations placed before it.
I am surprised at the rush to accept anecdotal evidence given by what might well be just a handful of redneck bigots rather than to deal with the facts as actually established.

Pawwed Rig · 26-09-2012 4:01pm

MagicSean wrote: »

But otherwise i don't see anything wrong with what he has done.

He has no business involving himself in local council matters. If the locals had an issue they should have approached their elected representatives in the local council rather than a national politician/minister.

I am not commenting on this specific case as it is not the point of the thread but in your scenario those areas that have a minister would be in an advantage to other areas with no minister. This goes against the whole notion of a republic and a county council system.
Hogan should be focusing on his own job. If he has spare time he could give a dig out down at the department of health. A national politician should definitely not be interfering in councils housing arrangements.

southsiderosie · 26-09-2012 4:09pm

MOD NOTE:

Can people posting on this thread please link to the appropriate article if you are going to make claims about the letter involved or the family involved. "Word on the street" is not going to cut it here.

Phil Hogan and Parish Pump politics [MERGED WITH MOD WARNING]

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