Formula 1 2012: General Discussion Thread

Myrddin · 11-09-2012 4:10pm

Rascasse wrote: »

PURE have run out of money so only Merc and Renault will be making the engines.

Are Ferrari not going to be making their own power plant?

brownacid · 11-09-2012 4:14pm

EnterNow wrote: »

Are Ferrari not going to be making their own power plant?

They are, the engine just went on the dyno last week for testing

ratedR · 11-09-2012 4:18pm

It seems he wants to become a brand. He wants to be famous for more then just being an F1 racer. We all know how McLaren like their drivers to look the part and say and do the right things, this doesn't fit in with his agenda.

You always hear Hamilton on about "the fans". I think he forgets though that the majority of his fans like him for being a race driver, and not for much else. There's a bit of a false charisma about him, I dunno. Maybe if he does leave he'll become like David "Crazy Dave" Coulthard from his Red Bull days after leaving McLaren - growing out the beard, being a bit more animated in interviews, jumping into pools in the nip..:D

I still say he's just fed up at Mclaren though. Whether it's the team fcuk ups, or holding his image back, or both, he wants out of there.

Rascasse · 11-09-2012 4:45pm

Doh! Yep of course Ferrari are doing their own. The day they take a customer engine is the day hell freezes over.

The point remains though that Mercedes should really have the jump over the likes of Red Bull, McLaren and Lotus by having that 2014 engine in house and designing it in conjunction with the car. And remember who penned the 2009 championship winning car after there were big rule changes?

11-09-2012 4:56pm

I don't see why Mercedes would want Hamilton for his brand or image.

He is always putting his foot in it and acts a bit like an insecure teenager rather than a confident mature adult. He has a kind of a buffoon reputation at this stage. I don't see how Hamilton in a Mercedes ad sells more cars than Schumacher.

freestyla · 11-09-2012 6:41pm

ratedR wrote: »

It seems he wants to become a brand. He wants to be famous for more then just being an F1 racer. We all know how McLaren like their drivers to look the part and say and do the right things, this doesn't fit in with his agenda.

You always hear Hamilton on about "the fans". I think he forgets though that the majority of his fans like him for being a race driver, and not for much else. There's a bit of a false charisma about him, I dunno. Maybe if he does leave he'll become like David "Crazy Dave" Coulthard from his Red Bull days after leaving McLaren - growing out the beard, being a bit more animated in interviews, jumping into pools in the nip..:D

I still say he's just fed up at Mclaren though. Whether it's the team fcuk ups, or holding his image back, or both, he wants out of there.

Well said^^

I guess Lewis wants to be involved more in show business and more time with family&friends

the next big thing --> Hamilton recording a rap song in German

freestyla · 11-09-2012 7:24pm

Rosberg is with Mercedes next year

(probably with Lewis;)

donspeekinglesh · 11-09-2012 7:33pm

Rascasse wrote: »

Joe Saward (who has very close links at Caterham)

A director of Caterham Cars in fact. (The road car company, not the F1 team.)

Andrew76 · 11-09-2012 7:42pm

EnterNow wrote: »

Wow if so. He may enjoy any podium he gets from here on more so than ever because there may not be very many more for a while to come looking at the lack of progress made by Merc in three years.

It'll certainly shake things up, thats for sure. Maybe it'll be good for him to get out of McLaren. Who knows

But there's zero guarantee that McLaren will be podium material next year. For a top team they have an awful record over the last decade in terms of championship wins so I don't get why some people think he'd be crazy to leave them for Merc.

Rascasse · 11-09-2012 8:49pm

Indeed, I don't like the way its hidden on on his website. Being a 'serious' journalist you'd think he'd have a proper ethics statement and declare his (and Tremayne's) possible conflict of interest.

Saying that, his blogs is worth reading for the occasional scoop and thoughtful analysis.

rua1972 · 11-09-2012 8:51pm

Ever since i read about his involvment i'm looking differently at his lotus/team lotus stories. But apart from that his blog is a must read.

cadaliac · 11-09-2012 9:08pm

Please excuse my ignorance regarding my next question.

Who pays for F1 drivers and at what point (cut over point) do the big teams start to pay the driver? Or, does someone bankroll all the drivers?
I hear you mentioning that Petrov will not be bankrolled any more etc. I also heard that Maldonado brought serious cash to Williams.
Would somebody please enlighten me as to this phenomenon ? I'm just wondering.

Thanks.

Zagato · 11-09-2012 9:40pm

Some sponsors have particular interests in drivers, usually based on they're nationality. Petrov is the only Russian driver, so it makes sense that a Russian company who is going to sponsor an F1 team would sponsor the team he is driving for.

The same is true for Maldonado -Venezuela; Karthrikeyen -India; Senna -Brazil
and to an extent Perez -Mexico

The sponsors bring money to the teams and the teams do pay the drivers, but relatively little compared to the sponsorship the driver brings to the team.

They are pay drivers if they are chosen because of the money they bring to the team rather than their ability behind the wheel

Ghost Train · 11-09-2012 9:47pm

Andrew76 wrote: »

But there's zero guarantee that McLaren will be podium material next year. For a top team they have an awful record over the last decade in terms of championship wins so I don't get why some people think he'd be crazy to leave them for Merc.

They're always there or there abouts.

Mercedes might see it as a way to market to younger generation

Do think he'd be taking more of risk moving than staying but might be good for him, McLaren might have tricky time finding faster driver

cadaliac · 11-09-2012 9:59pm

Thank you Zagato, I was confused by the terminology.
You explained it very well,
Thanks.

donspeekinglesh · 11-09-2012 10:03pm

Rascasse wrote: »

Indeed, I don't like the way its hidden on on his website. Being a 'serious' journalist you'd think he'd have a proper ethics statement and declare his (and Tremayne's) possible conflict of interest.

Saying that, his blogs is worth reading for the occasional scoop and thoughtful analysis.

As far as he's concerned it's clear enough. His reaction to people questioning that, and his general reaction to any sort of criticism, is why I've given up reading his blog.
(I do enjoy his writing though, own his non F1 books.)

Myrddin · 11-09-2012 10:15pm

Andrew76 wrote: »

But there's zero guarantee that McLaren will be podium material next year. For a top team they have an awful record over the last decade in terms of championship wins so I don't get why some people think he'd be crazy to leave them for Merc.

1 win in three years though...with two capable drivers, its not exactly inspiring. McLaren at least are in with a shout

Rascasse · 12-09-2012 12:07am

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Rascasse wrote: »

Indeed, I don't like the way its hidden on on his website. Being a 'serious' journalist you'd think he'd have a proper ethics statement and declare his (and Tremayne's) possible conflict of interest.

Saying that, his blogs is worth reading for the occasional scoop and thoughtful analysis.

As far as he's concerned it's clear enough. His reaction to people questioning that, and his general reaction to any sort of criticism, is why I've given up reading his blog.
(I do enjoy his writing though, own his non F1 books.)

He certainly doesn't like being questioned about his Caterham links. He also went off on one when the Bahrain GP was on and it was found that he and his cohort met with (and possibly duped by) a pro government campaigner. Another thing that annoys me is his constant digs at bloggers.

Yet I still read his blog as he does have a knack of filtering the BS from the truth having been there for so many years.

Andrew76 · 12-09-2012 12:45am

Ghost Train wrote: »

They're always there or there abouts.

Mercedes might see it as a way to market to younger generation

Do think he'd be taking more of risk moving than staying but might be good for him, McLaren might have tricky time finding faster driver

But "there or there abouts" in recent years may aswell have been nowhere when all it resulted in was 1 title, Hamilton's, which he barely secured on the last lap of the season.

EnterNow wrote: »

1 win in three years though...with two capable drivers, its not exactly inspiring. McLaren at least are in with a shout

Agreed 1 win is crap, but they have the same number of titles in that time, 0. Unless you count Brawn in 2009, then Merc are ahead. :P

the culture of deference · 12-09-2012 1:59pm

Unfortunately nowadays in F1 Celebrity is so important. F1 racing is now entertainment. This year with tyres we are seeing limited pacing instead of racing.

In Lewis you have a young guy who can hang with rappers and singers and mix in the worlds of both easily. He wants to be in charge of his image, marketing, and he wants the silverware. He is now super rich and famous in the league of Jay Z and Beyonce level of fame.

Jordan 199 · 12-09-2012 2:08pm

Sergio Perez not ready for Ferrari switch - Luca di Montezemolo.

From Autosport.

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has effectively ruled out Sergio Perez driving for his team next year, insisting the Mexican is still lacking experience.

Perez has been enjoying an impressive season with Sauber, having finished on the podium three times, including second place in the Italian Grand Prix last weekend, when he beat both Ferrari drivers Fernando Alonso and Felipe Massa.

The Sauber driver, in his second season in Formula 1, has been linked with Massa's seat for months, prompting di Montezemolo to play down talk of the Mexican landing a 2013 Ferrari seat back in June.

Although Perez has continued to impress this season, di Montezemolo said on Wednesday that 2013 would still be too soon for the Mexican to move into Ferrari.

"Next season is too early," Di Montezemolo told Sky Sports News. "I'm very pleased for him [after Perez finished second at Monza] because first of all it shows that our choice when we have picked up him as a young driver was good.

With Perez ruled out, and if Massa moves on, who will get the gig at Ferrari then?

Rascasse · 12-09-2012 2:21pm

I wouldn't rule out Massa staying. If he improves still more in the next few races he would make a sensible choice. He's seems to be content at being Alonso's helper whereas someone like Perez may actually be fast enough to occasionally make life difficult.

Other candidates; KOV maybe? He'd be fast enough, but not too fast. No one else on the grid with the experience that doesn't already have a contract.

Adrian Sutil as a very long shot. He was convicted for glassing Eric Lux so they may not want to go near him. Also in theory he wouldn't be allowed a visa for many of the countries like the US, Aus, Canada - but I'm sure Bernie can smooth out those sorts of issues.

Edit: Didn't think of Kobayashi. He's certainly calmed it down a bit and could be good for the Ferrari brand in Asia.

Jordan 199 · 12-09-2012 2:41pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Schumacher

I wouldn't mind that

OSI wrote: »

This is the Ferrari dillema. They want an experienced and consistant driver, that will willingly be second fiddle to Alonso, and none of the more experienced drivers in F1 are going to want to do that.

Perhaps Kovaleinen or Kobayashi could be make their way to Ferrari. They've both been in F1 long enough to know the score, give reasonably good and consistent performances given the limitations of their cars, and would likely be willing to play Ferrari's games for a shot at the big time.

I would like if Ferrari gave Kobayashi a shot. If they did, he would be the first Japanese driver to race for them in F1.

Rascasse wrote: »

I wouldn't rule out Massa staying. If he improves still more in the next few races he would make a sensible choice. He's seems to be content at being Alonso's helper whereas someone like Perez may actually be fast enough to occasionally make life difficult.

Other candidates; KOV maybe? He'd be fast enough, but not too fast. No one else on the grid with the experience that doesn't already have a contract.

Adrian Sutil as a very long shot. He was convicted for glassing Eric Lux so they may not want to go near him. Also in theory he wouldn't be allowed a visa for many of the countries like the US, Aus, Canada - but I'm sure Bernie can smooth out those sorts of issues.

Edit: Didn't think of Kobayashi. He's certainly calmed it down a bit and could be good for the Ferrari brand in Asia.

I agree about Massa. He scored points in the last 3 races. 9th in Hungary, 5th in Belgium and 4th in Italy. That's 24 points.

Max_Charger · 12-09-2012 5:29pm

Rascasse wrote: »

I wouldn't rule out Massa staying. If he improves still more in the next few races he would make a sensible choice. He's seems to be content at being Alonso's helper whereas someone like Perez may actually be fast enough to occasionally make life difficult.

Other candidates; KOV maybe? He'd be fast enough, but not too fast. No one else on the grid with the experience that doesn't already have a contract.

Adrian Sutil as a very long shot. He was convicted for glassing Eric Lux so they may not want to go near him. Also in theory he wouldn't be allowed a visa for many of the countries like the US, Aus, Canada - but I'm sure Bernie can smooth out those sorts of issues.

Edit: Didn't think of Kobayashi. He's certainly calmed it down a bit and could be good for the Ferrari brand in Asia.

I bet Massa is going nowhere. Heaven forbid Alonso should have another repeat of 2007,beaten by a better driver

*quickly runs away*

antodeco · 12-09-2012 10:04pm

Knowing Ferrari, they will probably go for Bruno Senna.

Jordan 199 · 13-09-2012 12:34am

Zagato wrote: »

The sponsors bring money to the teams and the teams do pay the drivers, but relatively little compared to the sponsorship the driver brings to the team.

I had a look at what sponsorship monies Maldonado & Senna took to Williams and what salaries they earn.

Pastor Maldonado brings around €56m in sponsorship money and draws a salary of €400,000.

Bruno Senna brings around €15m in sponsorship money and draws a salary of €250,000.

Sources: crash.net & the guardian.

vectra · 13-09-2012 12:36am

antodeco wrote: »

Knowing Ferrari, they will probably go for Bruno Senna.

Or Roman. He could help y taking out half the opposition :pac:

cherryghost · 13-09-2012 12:37am

I personally think Perez is very well developed, level headed guy. He never seems to be in the deep end unlike other drivers.

Rascasse · 13-09-2012 1:09am

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I had a look at what sponsorship monies Maldonado & Senna took to Williams and what salaries they earn.

Pastor Maldonado brings around €56m in sponsorship money and draws a salary of €400,000.

Bruno Senna brings around €15m in sponsorship money and draws a salary of €250,000.

Sources: crash.net & the guardian.

I think those amounts may be a bit high. For Pastor there is the famous invoice that works out to about €36m and I read somewhere that Bruno could be worth 'as little' as US$4m.

Still huge amounts and disgusting in Pastors case considering the poverty in Venezuela to spend so much public cash for a guy to drive around in circles to make the president look good.

Jordan 199 · 13-09-2012 1:30am

Rascasse wrote: »

I think those amounts may be a bit high. For Pastor there is the famous invoice that works out to about €36m and I read somewhere that Bruno could be worth 'as little' as US$4m.

I read in the same article you linked above Maldonado will be bringing about €49.9m to Williams by 2015. The funds he brings to Williams will rise every year until the end of 2015.

frostie500 · 13-09-2012 9:02am

Rascasse wrote: »

Indeed, I don't like the way its hidden on on his website. Being a 'serious' journalist you'd think he'd have a proper ethics statement and declare his (and Tremayne's) possible conflict of interest.

Saying that, his blogs is worth reading for the occasional scoop and thoughtful analysis.

In fairness to Joe he has never denied being a director at Caterham and states on his site:

In the interests of full disclosure, Joe is a non-executive director of Caterham Cars Group Ltd. This is an advisory role in the company that oversees the road car business. Joe is not in any way involved in the operations or management of the F1 team. His involvement in the road car business will not influence his F1 reporting in any way.

Jordan 199 · 13-09-2012 2:22pm

Bruno Senna.

Do you think his seat will be safe at Williams?

I was looking at his points scoring stats, and he scored 25 points in 7 races. He is also 4 points behind Pastor Maldonado in the championship.

Daniel S · 13-09-2012 2:29pm

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Bruno Senna.

Do you think his seat will be safe at Williams?

I was looking at his points scoring stats, and he scored 25 points in 7 races. He is also 4 points behind Pastor Maldonado in the championship.

I'd say Frank wouldn't be too keen on upsetting the Senna family again on a personal level. But financially he brings enough money to get a seat in F1. Their car has improved this year and it is probably due to the massive amounts of money Maldonado and Senna are bringing. To be honest, I'd replace both drivers, but financially it makes sense to keep them.

iDave · 13-09-2012 2:34pm

Would anyone like to see Kimi in a Ferrari again or do you prefer seeing him battling it out as an underdog in a Lotus?
Personally I’d love to see him back at the prancing horse but not sure its big enough for him and Alonso

Daniel S · 13-09-2012 2:40pm

iDave wrote: »

Would anyone like to see Kimi in a Ferrari again or do you prefer seeing him battling it out as an underdog in a Lotus?
Personally I’d love to see him back at the prancing horse but not sure its big enough for him and Alonso

You can't have two number one drivers anymore, just doesn't work (for the upper teams). Alonso would be the number one driver there.

Jordan 199 · 13-09-2012 2:57pm

OSI wrote: »

I have to think that Frank Williams has to be devastated at the position the team has been in, in the last 5+ years. Having to give drives to poor low grade drivers just to keep the team going, when not that long ago, they were one of the super powers of the sport must be gut wrenching for someone like Frank.

When Williams split with BMW in 2005, it went downhill. They lost their biggest sponsor (HP) and other sponsors departed the team to join another team or leave the sport completely.

Losing BMW & HP was a massive blow to the team.

vectra · 13-09-2012 3:45pm

iDave wrote: »

Would anyone like to see Kimi in a Ferrari again or do you prefer seeing him battling it out as an underdog in a Lotus?
Personally I’d love to see him back at the prancing horse but not sure its big enough for him and Alonso

Not with Baby Alonso..

anyhow, Kimi is his own man and would never play second fiddle for anyone.

On another note :

The management of Heikki Kovalainen has been invited to Ferrari to discuss a drive for the 2013 Formula 1 season. That is according to Finnish television company MTV3, with the Caterham driver now being tipped as a leading candidate for Fernando Alonso’s team-mate.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/283969/kovalainen-s-management-visits-ferrari/

Jordan 199 · 13-09-2012 4:15pm

OSI wrote: »

The Walrus nosed BMW Williams FW26 is still one of my favourite looking F1 cars.

Also, I miss Montoya in F1.

That Williams has a very nice livery.

Montoya, very quick but hot headed.

Myrddin · 13-09-2012 5:17pm

I've a Scalextric set of the Williams BMW cars that I bought when I worked in a BMW main dealer a good few years ago. Must dig it out, looks like the car above

frostie500 · 13-09-2012 6:52pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

He was a bit of a Pastor alright in fact he still is!

Hold it! I cant accept Montoya being compared to Pastor! Juan Pablo came into F1 and was immediately one of the star drivers who was fast and consistent for Williams in 2001. I'll grant that he was hotheaded off the track but on track he was always a real racer.

With regards to the earlier comments about Pastor I think it's very important to see the value that he brings to Williams in more ways than just money. He was absolutely flawless in Barcelona. That was, for me at least, the best performance by any driver all year.

He's defintely a "rough diamond" in many ways but he has consistently shown that there is a really good driver trying to emerge. With, pretty much, no testing anymore it takes young drivers a lot longer to find the balance between winning and finishing.

When Raikkonen, Montoya and Alonso came to F1 in 2001 (by the way I cant think of many better rookie classes in F1 history!) they did so with a huge amount of testing. Look at Hamilton and Kovalainen before their first races they had done over 20,000km of testing. Maldonado, and Grosjean, probably still havent ammassed that sort of seat time.

With regards to Williams I think that Pastor and Senna is a really good partnership. Maldonado has the potential to be a really quick racer when he calms down and Senna is very consistent, doesnt make mistakes and when the car is right he can be very quick.

Frank isnt sitting there thinking "how has my team got to this point" he's thinking that finally they can see light at the end of the tunnel

Jordan 199 · 13-09-2012 7:12pm

frostie500 wrote: »

Frank isnt sitting there thinking "how has my team got to this point" he's thinking that finally they can see light at the end of the tunnel

Getting Mike Coughlan and the Renault engines on board has sent Williams back in the right direction.

Daniel S · 13-09-2012 7:13pm

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Getting Mike Coughlan and the Renault engines on board has sent Williams back in the right direction.

And sacking half their upper management! :pac:

frostie500 · 13-09-2012 7:47pm

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I was only messing Montoya is a far better driver than Pastor and in fact probably a better driver than a lot of guys on the grid. Sure he is much happier punting people off in Nascar these days :pac:

Thank God that's cleared up, was getting worried!

Daniel S · 13-09-2012 7:53pm

Montoya wrote:

You facking idiot! You breaked my head! Facking idiot!

:pac:

13-09-2012 8:27pm

frostie500 wrote: »

When Raikkonen, Montoya and Alonso came to F1 in 2001 (by the way I cant think of many better rookie classes in F1 history!) they did so with a huge amount of testing. Look at Hamilton and Kovalainen before their first races they had done over 20,000km of testing. Maldonado, and Grosjean, probably still havent ammassed that sort of seat time.

I didn't think Kimi had had a lot of experience before F1.

Jordan 199 · 13-09-2012 8:36pm

Lol Daniel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFnnwdlerJM

Warning: clip contains swearing.

Alter-Ego · 13-09-2012 9:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't think Kimi had had a lot of experience before F1.

Kimi had only 23 car races under his belt and was lucky to get his super licence. In fact, he was only given a temporary 4 race licence at first.

smellslikeshoes · 13-09-2012 10:17pm

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Bruno Senna.

Do you think his seat will be safe at Williams?

I was looking at his points scoring stats, and he scored 25 points in 7 races. He is also 4 points behind Pastor Maldonado in the championship.

I'd personally take Senna over Maldonado any day. Sure Maldonado got William's first win in a very long time but apart from that he has only scored one other time compared to Senna's total of 7 points scoring drives. Maldonado is quick but he always seems to be where the trouble is. Senna's consistency will in my opinion leave him higher up the scoreboard at the end of the season.

Frankie Lee · 13-09-2012 10:58pm

Rascasse wrote: »

I think those amounts may be a bit high. For Pastor there is the famous invoice that works out to about €36m and I read somewhere that Bruno could be worth 'as little' as US$4m.

Still huge amounts and disgusting in Pastors case considering the poverty in Venezuela to spend so much public cash for a guy to drive around in circles to make the president look good.

In fairness to spend €36million on sponsorship for a national hero when the companies annual revenue is €88,000 million doesn't seem that much out of order. I wouldn't be surprised if Shell or Petronas spend around the same on sponsorship.

Jordan 199 · 14-09-2012 1:19pm

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

I'd personally take Senna over Maldonado any day. Sure Maldonado got William's first win in a very long time but apart from that he has only scored one other time compared to Senna's total of 7 points scoring drives. Maldonado is quick but he always seems to be where the trouble is. Senna's consistency will in my opinion leave him higher up the scoreboard at the end of the season.

The only other place where Maldonado scored points apart from his win was in China where he finished 8th and picked up 4 points. He didn't score points since his win at Spain, so that's 8 races in a row where he didn't score points.

If Senna keeps on going the way he has so far, I do think he will finish ahead of Maldonado in the standings by the end of the season.

Formula 1 2012: General Discussion Thread

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