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A Mere Mention of Abortion.

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    #272
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Another article in the Times about the women who had abortions due to their babies' medical conditions and will be meeting with TD's this week about it.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/0417/1224314815319.html?via=mr


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    #273
    meganj
    Registered Users Posts: 424 ✭✭meganj


    iguana wrote: »
    Another article in the Times about the women who had abortions due to their babies' medical conditions and will be meeting with TD's this week about it.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/0417/1224314815319.html?via=mr

    According yo The Journal (sorry no link, tablet + dolphin = awkwardness) the government have said they will not be voting for the bill tomorrow as they're waiting for the results of their 'expert group' which could take over a year.

    Seems more likely they don't want to take a sip from the potentially poisoned chalice before the vote on the fiscal treaty.


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    #274
    lilmissprincess
    Registered Users Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭lilmissprincess


    Makes me extremely angry that Labour are going back on what was said only last weekend at Conference about making moves towards legislation.... *scream*


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    #275
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Why do we even have a supreme court when we ignore it's rulings for 20 years?


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    #276
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    hattoncracker wrote: »
    I'm posting this in the Ladies Lounge because I want a female perspective on this.

    Now I'm respectful of all choices in life, but I really don't understand how other people can't be.

    Why is it the mere mention of abortion ends with some people just totally loosing it? I know it's a sensitive subject, and if you don't agree with it then fine.

    I have a friend who considered, but didn't have an abortion. She lost the baby at 13 weeks, and one of her friends who knew that she had considered it and is very pro life told her it was karma, and that she deserved to loose it, and that she and her bf were murderers.

    I have had people in real life and on this forum jump down my throat because I believe that abortion should be legalised in this country and that every woman should have the right to it if she wants to. I believe that is traumatic as an experience, made all the more so because you can never tell anyone what you went through, and you have to travel out of the country for it.

    I'm just wondering, what would you say if you met someone who openly told you she had an abortion because she wasn't capable of raising a child and didn't want to give up her job, education, etc? Would you think she was a horrible person? Or would you be able to look past her actions and not judge her on it?

    I myself had to have one due to not being financially stable, young and not long with my boyfriend. And it was very traumatic. I LOVE kids, I am such a maternal person, but I had to think of me and the baby. I deserve the life i've been working very hard for the past 4 years to achieve, my baby deserves to have ALL it's needs met, and it's want's also. It doesn't deserve a mum who is never there and can barely provide for it and who is probably a single parent. Plenty of people are single parents and do an amazing job - that's not my issue, I just wouldn't have been able to care for it despite wanting to.
    So I went to the UK, had the abortion and was very very sad about it until recently. Just starting to come to terms with it after 6 months. So tbh people can think what they like, but its not a decision made on a whim and never thought of again, because you think of it every day and run the "what if" scenarios in your head.


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    #277
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Reading those stories I feel that if I ever find myself in the position of those women, I would go to the UK and never come back. They are so brave to be able to stay in this country and fight for this issue.


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    #278
    chocolategirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31 ✭chocolategirl


    un'reg'd you sound like a very good person. And yes you DO deserve the life you've worked for and all that life has to offer. You've been through alot and have had to be very brave so be good to you.

    I think those women who came forward are amazing and so brave. Their stories are absolutely heartbreaking and its horrific what they've had to go through. Please God let us come to a more compassionate society and one where women can speak without being stigmatised because there's so many suffering. Especially for women in these situations where their children are suffering or will not live outside the womb. I can't even imagine what they are going through.


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    #279
    ilikepears
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭ilikepears


    These women are so brave. Not only have they recently had to travel to the Uk for an abortion and are dealing from the consequences of this such as grieving for the loss of a baby that they wanted. They are also coming together to fight for the right of other women who find themselves in the same situation as themselves.
    This government makes me so mad that they keep delaying introducing legislation to allow for these women to have an abortion here in their own country.
    I have traveled to the UK for terminating an unwanted pregnancy. In a way I'm glad that I had to outside the country. It was almost like I could disassociate from the experience easier as it hadn't happened in my own country. its kinda hard to explain. I have never told anyone outside of my immediate family about the abortion. I doubt I ever will. I feel Irish people still are very judgmental about those who have abortions.
    I know these women are different from my situation in that I chose to do what I did but they didn't. It most be so difficult to terminate a pregnancy of a child that you so badly wanted.
    The worse thing about going to a different country was the hanging around the city after you had the abortion. I didn't want to stay in that city overnight just wanted to go home to bed. But i still had to hang around walking aimlessly for 5 hours.
    When I found out I was pregnant I was devastated. I felt so scared. I felt the life drain out of my body. Before if there was a referendum on whether abortion should be introduced I don't think I would have voted. I would have felt that if I voted yes then I would of had blood on my hands. I also wouldn't have voted no because I didn't think I had the right to stop others from getting an abortion. I know if I hadn't the option to go to get a legal then I would of tried the illegal route.
    I know it sounds horrible to say but I just wanted it out of me. I didn't feel any attachment or connection to it.
    I went to marie stopes and I honestly think they helped me emotionally so much. There was about a week and a half between I found out I was pregnant and booking the termination. During that time I was like a zombie. All I did was lie down on the couch and stare at the ceiling. I was so depressed. i have never felt that bad in my life. I cried. I was frustrated. I regretted the night I got pregnant. I thought of the other options besides a termination. I realised though that I could never have this baby. I personally feel I wouldn't have been able to give a baby an adequate standard of life. I wasn't in a relationship with the dad which made a huge difference to me.
    I thought that for me a termination was the best option. I even thought I'd have to go to the doctor for anti-depressants afterwards. However then I rang marie stopes. To talk to a non-judgmental person (i think they are nurses though I'm not sure) and have them be so nice to me was unreal. I actually felt that I wasn't this evil person who was killing a child.
    If it becomes legal here the one thing I hope is that women can get terminations without judgement. If i had gone to marie stopes and they had made me feel bad for what I was doing I honestly feel it would have added greatly to my problems.
    A woman facing a termination is in such a vulnerable position. In this country we have to protect the vulnerable in our society. Not send them to other countries and act that Irish women do not have abortions. We do.

    Sorry for the long jumbled up post.


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    #280
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I've been avoiding the media like the plague today. The debate in the Dail today is just too hard. All the prolifers come out of the woodwork and just make me feel like ****.

    I am so in awe of those women for fighting this, I think its a disgrace its been left hanging - again. All the courage it took for them to go public, talk to the radio, tv etc and its just been put on the back burner like it doesn't matter. I hope they don't feel they have failed. They have done so much.

    I just feel I suppose that its created a two tier idea of abortion, that women like the majority who have other reasons for taking the trip are being ignored and treated like our pregnancies were just hassles that we didn't give much thought to ending. We have had to endure our own trauma and I am scared that will be forgotten .

    Keep fighting ladies cause someone somewhere will eventually have to listen. You are brilliant xx


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    #281
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    I got so frustrated reading the news online last night that I wrote an email to the taoiseach....

    I feel a bit silly for doing it, I wish I could do more...


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    #282
    Piste
    Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    So I see today's proposed legislation has been defeated. I'm not sure what to think of it, one one hand abortion is such a complex, nuanced topic, that legislating for it should probably wait until the report of the working group comes back, so we know that research and thought has gone into recommendations. On the other hand, it's easy to take a cynical view and say that by waiting for the expert group report to come back the government are just putting off taking a sip from the potentially poisoned chalice. Does anyone know where I could find the wording of today's proposed legislation by any chance?


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    #283
    Tipsygypsy
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭Tipsygypsy


    Piste, link to proposed bill:

    http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2012/1012/b1012d.pdf


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    #284
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Piste wrote: »
    So I see today's proposed legislation has been defeated. I'm not sure what to think of it, one one hand abortion is such a complex, nuanced topic, that legislating for it should probably wait until the report of the working group comes back, so we know that research and thought has gone into recommendations. On the other hand, it's easy to take a cynical view and say that by waiting for the expert group report to come back the government are just putting off taking a sip from the potentially poisoned chalice. Does anyone know where I could find the wording of today's proposed legislation by any chance?
    I posted this before, but to give some context to waiting for the "expert group":
    1998: The Government establish an Inter-departmental Working Group on Abortion supervised by a cabinet sub-committee
    1999 (September): Green Paper on Abortion published. Seven possible options are outlined.
    2000 (May, June, July): Interested parties and organisations, including representatives from the medical profession, special interest groups and faith groups, are invited to address the All-Party Oireachtas Committee.
    2000 (November): All-Party Oireachtas Committee publishes its report. After nearly 12 months, the committee fails to reach a consensus outlining three different approaches, reflecting the views of Labour, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil.
    2000 (November): A Cabinet subcommittee on abortion convenes, chaired by the Minister for Health, Mr Martin. This subcommittee is to eventually make a recommendation to the Government.
    Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/abortion/issues/chronology.htm
    The court [European Court of Human Rights] has already criticised the State for failing to act on recommendations of the three previous government committees that have already considered Ireland’s regulation of abortion,” chief executive of the association Niall Behan said.
    Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0915/1224304143020.html
    ...the Green Paper 1999 noted that...
    ...The political assessment of that Paper by the Committee on the Constitution led to the Fifth Progress Report which found that...

    Despite therefore the recognition by those bodies that further legal clarity was required as regards lawful abortions in Ireland, no agreement was reached on any reform proposals, no legislation and/or constitutional referenda were proposed and the Government confirmed to the Court that no legislative reform was envisaged.
    Source - ECHR ruling on the ABC case: http://www.bailii.org/eu/cases/ECHR/2010/2032.html#para265

    I wouldn't hold my breath on the Irish goverment's expediency in this matter, "expert" group or not

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    #285
    Piste
    Registered Users Posts: 11,440 ✭✭✭✭Piste


    That's a shame they didn't act on the recommendations of the previous group. Will the findings of this group be publically published?


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    #286
    Bobbity
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭Bobbity


    I feel that it is ultimately the ladies choice. I don't see how suits & white collars can decide the best interests of any pregnant lady. It's not an easy decision to make, yes, initially there's relief, but also a huge amount of guilt that will engulf you. Why should someone be made to feel guilty or answerable to others because of their choice. It's not just single girls that head across the water, a lot of well heeled ladies travel too. It's none of anyone else's business, and I wish pro-lifers would get a life and mind their own business. Everytime I hear the name "pro lifer", I think blue rinse brigade!
    Live and let live!


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    #287
    King of Kings
    Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭King of Kings


    i've had somebody go to england and abort my kid - not a pleasant thing. Can't say it affects me too much now , although I'd do get hot under the collar when people ( like a previous poster) suggest it's a women's body and she can do what she likes with it.
    It's not that simple and it's stupid to think it is.

    I would have always been pro-life and still am.

    I've had a few friends who have had abortions - varying circumstances.

    I'll admit i judged a few , in my mind not in an overt screaming "murderer" at them way, as they had abortions for lifestyle reason "it's not the right time" kinda thing when in reality it was they feared their social lives would be doomed. I saw them differently after to be honest.

    I've had another friend who recently had an abortion for medical reasons - she has my full support and sympathy and nothing less than 100% of it.

    It depends on each circumstances. Everybody has a reason for doing it - some of them are selfish and some are not.

    Anybody who screams "murderer" and at somebody is an idiot likewise people who want to spit at pro-life people are idiots too.

    It's possible to disagree with somebody's decision in their lives and not hate them (or abuse them)

    Bobbity wrote: »
    Everytime I hear the name "pro lifer", I think blue rinse brigade!
    Live and let live!

    I'm only 34 and I look 27


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    #288
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    King of Kings wrote: »

    I would have always been pro-life and still am.

    Pro life is an utterly meaningless phrase. Who isn't pro life? Pro death people? Lazy catch all term that people who want to deny women the right to choose whether to proceed with a pregnancy use to make it sound like they care. Most so called pro life people are pro pregnancy-when the kid arrives they wash their hands of it, and generally bleat about the payments given to single parents and how women get pregnant to get a house.


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    #289
    King of Kings
    Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭King of Kings


    lazygal wrote: »
    Pro life is an utterly meaningless phrase. Who isn't pro life? Pro death people? Lazy catch all term that people who want to deny women the right to choose whether to proceed with a pregnancy use to make it sound like they care.
    .

    actually I agree - I'm anti abortion not pro-life ,i don't like the label but the label is common used grouping so I don't see as an essential fight.
    lazygal wrote: »
    Most so called pro life people are pro pregnancy-when the kid arrives they wash their hands of it, and generally bleat about the payments given to single parents and how women get pregnant to get a house.

    .[/QUOTE]

    that's a lazy analogy. It's also stupid.
    You are taking an extreme view - only a minor of anti-abortion people are of that view.
    You get nuts on all sides.


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    #290
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    King of Kings wrote: »
    actually I agree - I'm anti abortion not pro-life ,i don't like the label but the label is common used grouping so I don't see as an essential fight.



    .

    that's a lazy analogy. It's also stupid.
    You are taking an extreme view - only a minor of anti-abortion people are of that view.
    You get nuts on all sides.[/QUOTE]

    So you're going to take in all the unwanted children women are forced to bear and raise them yourself?


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    #291
    King of Kings
    Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭King of Kings


    So you're going to take in all the unwanted children women are forced to bear and raise them yourself?[/QUOTE]

    yes - as a tax payer I would like the state to contribute.

    Since you are so vehemently against my position - I'd like to see you comment on my personal circumstances.

    Do you think my ex wife was within her rights to do what she did?
    Do I have grounds for being aggrieved or am I just selfish for want "to force" her carry the baby.
    Am I the bad guy here?
    The question may seem agrressive but it's not - I'm just intrigued to know


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    #292
    Nymeria
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭Nymeria


    King of Kings wrote: »
    i've had somebody go to england and abort my kid - not a pleasant thing.

    I'm sure it wasn't a barrell of fun for her either.
    it's a women's body and she can do what she likes with it.
    It's not that simple and it's stupid to think it is.

    Equally stupid is the notion that you should have absolute control over whether or not another person is forced to carry an unwanted child for 9 months, along with the physical, mental and emotional toll that brings. I agree that fathers should have a say to a point, however ultimately it IS her body and bodily autonomy should be absolute.
    I've had a few friends who have had abortions - varying circumstances.

    The point here is that you don't know the full circumstances, and you probably never will. How can you possibly know all thats going on in their head and their heart at a time like that.
    I'll admit i judged a few , in my mind not in an overt screaming "murderer" at them way, as they had abortions for lifestyle reason "it's not the right time" kinda thing when in reality it was they feared their social lives would be doomed. I saw them differently after to be honest.

    I've had another friend who recently had an abortion for medical reasons - she has my full support and sympathy and nothing less than 100% of it.

    In both situations they went through the same procedure, so why are you able to give your support to one and not to another??

    This bit is the one that makes me growl the most...so as long as they had your approval that their circumstances were horrific enough, then they should be allowed to have one, albeit grudgingly. Thats a ridiculous double standard we seem to be hearing about lately - as long as the woman is shamed and suffering enough then it's allowed. It's not up to you to decide what is 'selfish' in other people's bodily choices.
    As I read someone say on this site before; it's not then about the feotus, its about the woman, and her level of percieved fault and thus her level of 'shame' or suffering to be endured.
    If you percieve the reasons to something 'trivial' like lifestyle choices then thats a no no. The truth is you don't know their full circumstances, only what they tell you.

    I'm only 34 and I look 27

    You sound about 80.


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    #293
    Nymeria
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭Nymeria



    yes - as a tax payer I would like the state to contribute.

    So, in essence your answer is no. Being ok with the state looking after them is not the same things as taking on a child, being responsible for them financially, emotionally and otherwise, which I believe was the original question.


    Since you are so vehemently against my position - I'd like to see you comment on my personal circumstances.

    Do you think my ex wife was within her rights to do what she did?
    Do I have grounds for being aggrieved or am I just selfish for want "to force" her carry the baby.
    Am I the bad guy here?
    The question may seem agrressive but it's not - I'm just intrigued to know

    Of course you have the right to be annoyed or upset, that sounds like a terribly sad situation where you wanted the child and she didn't. However, I stand by the argument that she should not be made to carry a child that she does not want, however heartbreaking that may be for you.

    Some women are ok with carrying a child and giving it up for adoption, however this is not the blanket answer for all unwanted pregnancies.


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    #294
    King of Kings
    Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭King of Kings


    Nymeria wrote: »
    I'm sure it wasn't a barrell of fun for her either.

    .
    I'm assume so - we didn't speak too much about it after.
    Nymeria wrote: »
    Equally stupid is the notion that you should have absolute control over whether or not another person is forced to carry an unwanted child for 9 months, along with the physical, mental and emotional toll that brings. I agree that fathers should have a say to a point, however ultimately it IS her body and bodily autonomy should be absolute.
    .
    We;ll disagree on this .
    Nymeria wrote: »

    The point here is that you don't know the full circumstances, and you probably never will. How can you possibly know all thats going on in their head and their heart at a time like that.

    .
    we'll they told me. In particular two of them told me everything in so much as they could articulate everything.

    In both situations they went through the same procedure, so why are you able to give your support to one and not to another??
    Nymeria wrote: »

    This bit is the one that makes me growl the most...so as long as they had your approval that their circumstances were horrific enough, then they should be allowed to have one, albeit grudgingly. Thats a ridiculous double standard we seem to be hearing about lately - as long as the woman is shamed and suffering enough then it's allowed. It's not up to you to decide what is 'selfish' in other people's bodily choices.
    As I read someone say on this site before; it's not then about the feotus, its about the woman, and her level of percieved fault and thus her level of 'shame' or suffering to be endured.
    If you percieve the reasons to something 'trivial' like lifestyle choices then thats a no no. The truth is you don't know their full circumstances, only what they tell you.
    .

    This is a complete distorting of what I said - so you either read it wrong, picked it up wrong or twisted for an agenda. Either way that's not what I said. Nobody was shamed - where did you pick this up from.

    Nymeria wrote: »

    You sound about 80.

    that's cos I've lived a bit - but I don't think that's what you meant.
    I think your comment is quite mean.
    Have you considered how pro-choice 80 year olds feel about being lumped in with me?


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    #295
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    I don't think you're a bad guy King of Kings - pregnancy termination is emotive, heart-breaking, thought-provoking and stressful...for everyone involved. There are real people left with the very real consequences of making decisions about pregnancies on both sides - I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.

    The crux of the issue is that unfortunately pregnancy/abortion is one of those things where there is just is no compromise...you either do it or you don't. Until there is a way to hand gestational development over to which-ever party wishes it then the arguments against abortion are going to be viewed as proposals for forced pregnancy and lots of people get grossly offended/angered at the idea of over-ruling the basic bodily rights given to everyone else in every other situation as standard and demoting women to nothing more than the role of incubators irrespective or even despite the woman's own wishes to carry the pregnancy.

    There is no way to legislate or discuss a world-wide issue based on individual cases and the heart-ache, emotion and strong feelings on either side makes this an almost impossible discussion to have in generalities...because imo both sides are right. Yes it's horribly unfair to force women to be pregnant - and yes it's horribly unfair that men get no choice in someone aborting their child...it's one of those horrible situations when, for me anyway, it's a case of trying to figure out which is least unfair - rather than which is fair.

    All the best you.


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    #296
    Nymeria
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭Nymeria



    We;ll disagree on this.

    Would you agree to another person having control over your body, and forcing you to go through with a medical procedure that you didn't agree with?


    This is a complete distorting of what I said - so you either read it wrong, picked it up wrong or twisted for an agenda. Either way that's not what I said. Nobody was shamed - where did you pick this up from.

    I shall try again. Both parties went though with the same procedure, and yet, by your own admission, you judged one person, and fully supported 100% the other. The only difference from what I could gather was their reason for termination, which in one case was medically necessary, and in another case was for what you termed 'lifestlye choices'. This is the disparity I was referring to. You judged one person because their reasons didn't live up to your standards of what should be acceptable. I will say again, it's not up to you to decide what is 'selfish' in other people's bodily choices.


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    #297
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    While this is an emotive and divisive subject can we keep things civil please. All friends here :)

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #298
    I am a friend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭I am a friend


    Bobbity wrote: »

    Live and let live!

    But not for the baby obviously :(

    I am a female and have just had a baby and dont think it was my right to abort the baby given it was a product of both my partner and i and his view had to come into it.

    If I didnt want the baby I would have had it solely on the basis he would take over full responsibility for it once born. I dont think i had the right, even though it was my body to abort his baby...


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    #299
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    I am a friend wrote: »
    But not for the baby obviously :(

    I am a female and have just had a baby and dont think it was my right to abort the baby given it was a product of both my partner and i and his view had to come into it.

    If I didnt want the baby I would have had it solely on the basis he would take over full responsibility for it once born. I dont think i had the right, even though it was my body to abort his baby...

    That was your choice.


    Choice being the operative word.


    If a woman became pregnant through rape and the rapist wanted the child would you think it's ok for him to make such a demand?


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    #300
    Tea 1000
    Registered Users Posts: 4,520 ✭✭✭Tea 1000


    Nymeria wrote: »
    I shall try again. Both parties went though with the same procedure, and yet, by your own admission, you judged one person, and fully supported 100% the other. The only difference from what I could gather was their reason for termination, which in one case was medically necessary, and in another case was for what you termed 'lifestlye choices'. This is the disparity I was referring to. You judged one person because their reasons didn't live up to your standards of what should be acceptable. I will say again, it's not up to you to decide what is 'selfish' in other people's bodily choices.
    The point he is making is that her bodily choice was affecting a second human life, and not just her own. You're on the side that her life as a fully formed adult should override the right of the developing life, he is of the opinion that the developing life has equal right to life.
    Your attempt to try to belittle his opinion on each different case is similar to belittling someone who splits their opinion on two people who killed an adult, one killed cause they didn't like the person near them, the other was in self defense. (I'm not comparing his two specific cases to these two examples, I'm proposing a point of view from someone who thinks both cases are wrong, but one is reconcilable).


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    #301
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    I am a friend wrote: »
    Bobbity wrote: »

    Live and let live!

    But not for the baby obviously :(

    I am a female and have just had a baby and dont think it was my right to abort the baby given it was a product of both my partner and i and his view had to come into it.

    If I didnt want the baby I would have had it solely on the basis he would take over full responsibility for it once born.


    Congratulations on the birth of your child, but this is not the thread for debating for or against abortion.. I don't want any fighting over it because you're just dragging everything off topic.


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