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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Gardai proposals to ban firearms

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Comments

  • #2752
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    meathstevie wrote: »
    Both the Minister and the Commissioner appear to be intelligent ladies. They should be well able to see that there's no problems worth mentioning with licenced firearms as things stand.

    You would assume that there are intelligent people at the higher echelons of An Garda Siochanna too, yet they are pushing for draconian changes that will only affect law abiding licenced firearms holders.

    I'd be happy enough with the firearms laws being applied evenly across the board instead of the postcode lottery which we seem to have at the moment.


  • #2753
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    .............. yet they are pushing for draconian changes that will only affect law abiding licenced firearms holders.......
    This is not a mistake on their behalf. Regardless of what is said the removal of all firearms would be a "best result" scenario for them. We shouldn't be surprised that any wanted or proposed changes will effect us.
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  • #2754
    garrettod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Cass wrote: »
    ...Regardless of what is said the removal of all firearms would be a "best result" scenario for them.


    If guns are made criminal, then only criminals will have guns.

    Those words are as true today, as they were the first time I saw them, which was probably close to 30 years ago now.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • #2755
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Not trying to be a dick, but those little quips are all well and good, but have not and will not protect us or stand as a valid argument against everything that has occurred to date or will occur in the future. You're applying a logic that most people would understand and agree with, but goes against the anti firearm opinions of those in control.

    Do you not think that if there was someway to outright ban all firearms in the morning without the grief of court cases, compensation, etc in the morning that it would not be done asap? All i mean is we should not be surprised at what is done or thought of about firearms.
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  • #2756
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    I think you are right Cass, we shouldn't have faith that authorities will look out for ALL interests equitably and fairly. Their interest, as you say, could be to remove "the problem" of firearms altogether, and if not then large sections of it.
    This would have a huge impact to many different sports and other interests such as farmers. So, if we all coalesce and stand together we can present an intimidating group for them to attack. i.e It becomes politically infeasible to attack us.
    Well, fingers crossed.


  • #2757
    garrettod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Cass wrote: »
    ...but those little quips are all well and good, but have not and will not protect us or stand as a valid argument against everything that has occurred to date or will occur in the future. You're applying a logic that most people would understand and agree with, but goes against the anti firearm opinions of those in control.


    The truth is always going to be the truth and the facts will always be the facts, Cass.

    The question is why punish those law abiding citizens, while the criminals run free to do what they want... thats a key message we need to keep sending through every public channel imho.

    Cass wrote: »
    ...Do you not think that if there was someway to outright ban all firearms in the morning without the grief of court cases, compensation, etc in the morning that it would not be done asap? All i mean is we should not be surprised at what is done or thought of about firearms.

    What people think is often down to the information they are provided with, be it right or wrong. Part of our job is to help inform people and ensure they have the right informaiton, to make the right decisions or form the right conclusions.

    Sure, the anti gun lobby will always exist, but so will other opposition groups to various other things. In fact I wouldn't be overly surprised if it was the same "naysayers" found in groups lobbying about all sorts of different things, just to try and enforce their will on everyone else. As long as we continue to do the right thing and ensure people are correctly informed along the way, those lobby groups will always struggle to get significant support.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • #2758
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,219 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    There is, as ever, an anti-firearms sub text in much of the media's output. Less than an hour ago the presenter on Newstalk was interviewing some publicity hungry politician, and stated "a gun is a dangerous thing to have in a house"
    The interview was in relation to the rise in robberies country wide. As usual, both interviewer and politician are unaware/ignorant to the realities of licencing conditions and safe use of said firearms.
    A tiger is a dangerous thing to keep in a dwelling house, because it is unpredictable. A gun is an inert piece of steel and wood and will sit in a press for forty years and hurt no one. It requires criminal intent on a humans behalf to make it dangerous.


  • #2759
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Ever wonder why the loudest anti gun ownership politicans and celebs are the ones surrounded by armed state supplied protection or can hire armed private security to protect them?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #2760
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    I'm going to be a little blunt, but i don't want that to be confused as attacking or being ignorant. No offence is intended.
    garrettod wrote: »
    The truth is always going to be the truth and the facts will always be the facts, Cass.
    Another quip that while true in meaning has absolutely no value other than a good soundbite. Our (shooting community) history has shown us to be the safest sport out there (at least in Ireland) and still we are attacked every time it comes to tackling firearms. That will never change so we can sit on our righteousness all we want but its of little value if they continue to chip away at firearm ownership.
    The question is why punish those law abiding citizens, while the criminals run free to do what they want... thats a key message we need to keep sending through every public channel imho.

    We are a known factor in terms of names, addresses,etc. So when a "win" is needed we are the easy target and considering the prevailing attitude of non firearm owners (however irrational some may be) we are a minority.

    What people think is often down to the information they are provided with, be it right or wrong. Part of our job is to help inform people and ensure they have the right informaiton, to make the right decisions or form the right conclusions.

    Sure, the anti gun lobby will always exist, but so will other opposition groups to various other things. In fact I wouldn't be overly surprised if it was the same "naysayers" found in groups lobbying about all sorts of different things, just to try and enforce their will on everyone else. As long as we continue to do the right thing and ensure people are correctly informed along the way, those lobby groups will always struggle to get significant support.
    I'm not talking about non firearm owners from an "averagee Joe" point of view, i'm talking about those in control such as An Gardaí & DoJ. You know, the ones that actually decide what and if we get them.


    I agree with your point of view and have even said as much myself over the years, but i've also been there and seen this happen before and know that it is never as black and white as it should be. IOW the truth does not win out, the person with the best media coverage and soundbites do. When you have a largely anti gun society, an anti gun media, and an anti gun establishment it doesn't matter how valid your argument is when you are fighting attitudes and not the law.
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  • #2761
    garrettod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,452 ✭✭✭garrettod


    Cass wrote: »
    ....IOW the truth does not win out, the person with the best media coverage and soundbites do.When you have a largely anti gun society, an anti gun media, and an anti gun establishment it doesn't matter how valid your argument is when you are fighting attitudes and not the law.

    Then maybe it's time the media coverage was used a little more, by those in the sport. Maybe it's time those in the sport start to speak up a little more and stop hiding, or lurking in the shadows almost acting as if they are embarrassed to be a law abiding citizen enjoying their chosen sport.

    To be quite honest Cass, I don't know whether it's due to fatigue or what, but at the moment your coming across as someone who is almost ready to give up and that, if accurate, would be a real shame.

    No offense either taken or intended btw.

    Oh, just to add, I'm not saying your wrong in what you've posted but I am saying that the future shoudln't reflect the past either. Just because things have not always gone as they should in times past, doesn't mean we shouldn't stop pressing for them to go the right way in the future.

    Thanks,

    G.



  • #2762
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    garrettod wrote: »
    Then maybe it's time the media coverage was used a little more, by those in the sport. Maybe it's time those in the sport start to speak up a little more and stop hiding, or lurking in the shadows almost acting as if they are embarrassed to be a law abiding citizen enjoying their chosen sport.
    We've tried, for years and years. At the Creedmoor in 2011 and only recently a couple of months ago the media (even local rags) wouldn't cover it. The minute shooting was mentioned they lost interest.

    The only media coverage we have ever seen has been from shooting sport companies (ISSF, Shooting mags, Shooting websites).
    To be quite honest Cass, I don't know whether it's due to fatigue or what, but at the moment your coming across as someone who is almost ready to give up and that, if accurate, would be a real shame.
    It wears on ya as others can attest to more than i. Everything you have said has been tried, said and done before but mostly to no avail. It's infuriating and tiresome.
    No offense either taken or intended btw.
    Coolio.
    Oh, just to add, I'm not saying your wrong in what you've posted but I am saying that the future shoudln't reflect the past either. Just because things have not always gone as they should in times past, doesn't mean we shouldn't stop pressing for them to go the right way in the future.
    The problem, without rehashing the entire thread into one post is, the same mistakes have been made in the past and are being made again. The same tired, unworkable approach has been trotted out time after time and this is even more tiresome and wearing than the DoJ. At least they make no bones about what they intend.

    It's important to try and stay positive and for the most part i am but at times you just feel, m'eh, about the whole thing. :o
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  • #2763
    OzCam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭OzCam


    The less you hear from this Minister the better. She has been a disaster. Well-spoken, well-turned-out but a Blueshirt underneath it all. And as an ex FG voter, I don't say that lightly.

    Minister Fitzgerald was told directly, face-to-face by people involved, that another legislative change she is proposing will make life more dangerous for those affected. Her response was that it's more important to "send a message". Shatter might have been a b*****x but at least he understood the law.

    Anything the Minister says this side of an election will be bad news for shooters. Hope for silence.


  • #2764
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Nothing to do with this thread or even shooting sports in this country.

    Post removed.
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  • #2765
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    New SI announced, changes incoming.


  • #2766
    hexosan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭hexosan


    SI 391/15 told you it was coming on "A" Friday. ��


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  • #2767
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Yeah... shame it came out on a tuesday though...


  • #2768
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Mod note: Un-stickying this thread in favour of the thread discussing the actual SI.
    (Thread remains open for comments)


  • #2769
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Do it tuseday announce it friday.The politicans way of doing things. .

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #2770
    Broadstr8
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭Broadstr8


    [snip]

    What is the latest with the reform? Ive heard rumblings thar good changes are near?

    Well done and keep up the good work boys. Shooting will remain a cheerished sport yet!

    [snip]


  • #2771
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Broadstr8 wrote: »
    What is the latest with the reform? Ive heard rumblings thar good changes are near?
    See above...


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  • #2772
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Cant belive a year is already gone!:eek:

    On this date next Sat[oct 10th] it will be a year that the first DC cases were heard and were costs were awarded too down in Limerick. Within a month AGS were back with this final all or nothing "ban everything back to the stone age" proposals ,which if anything galvanised an entire disparate bunch of squabbling and in fighting organisations to finaly get together a unified front[more or less] and fight this for once.Not only did we fight it ,it backfired on AGS and has from what I hear cost one of the cheif protaginists and architect his job in AGS as well.

    It was a tense year I think for us all and going by the thread comments and arguements.
    Going to what I think must be one of the longest threads on the shooting boards that I can remember?

    So whoever you are and whatever you did ...Well done to you and those in the shadows who would rather rename nameless but provided information as well...You know who you are,Thanks;)

    I think we are in a good position,if not slightly better than last year at this time. We need to keep this going and not throw each other to the wolves in the hope they will be sated when they come for any particular segment of our sport. Cool and knowledgeable heads are needed at the FCP and FAAA when they are established again,with less table thumping from both sides and more knowedgeable negoiating.Provided it is set in motion post election 2015/16

    Doing this right,I see no reason that CF semi rifles will be available CF handguns and reloading,and that Ireland finally has a modern competant liscensing system like the rest of the EU. If we have to even modify ourselves and accept some restrictions or changes in our club policies and training to get more people shooting in the long run and not as some muppets say introduce eliteism and discrimination into the sport ,how bad?? Would it be bad that any newbies have to start off with a .22 and learn the basics for a year with mandatory range attendance before they could go forward for a large caliber liscense?Where everyone gets a chance to look at whether they are comitted to the sport or not just doing it to get a CF pistol?
    Points like this and more are things we will have to start asking ourselves and our organisations alot .We have to start thinking long term survival ability of ALL the disiplines and not short term "fuk you Jack I got mine." [Somthing I've already been accused of.:rolleyes:]

    We arent out utterly out of the tunnel yet,but at least the light in front of us is a clear view of some daylight and not a trains headlight.:)

    Was looking forward to going to the Bullseye shoot on this day to commerate it but alas that thing called "work :(" is getting in the way.But I'm sure there will be others and with less stress of worrying [for now] will it be the last one shot with CF handguns or semi rifles.
    Onwards!
    Grizzly 45

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #2773
    lakesider
    Closed Accounts Posts: 136 ✭✭lakesider


    great speech but seein as you were the first man to suggest putting a cap on 22 pistols and have clubs close the doors on new memebers its a bit hypocritical no?


  • #2774
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    lakesider wrote: »
    great speech but seein as you were the first man to suggest putting a cap on 22 pistols and have clubs close the doors on new memebers its a bit hypocritical no?

    Ah and heres the first one....
    Try Thinking about this a moment...We know that there will be a cap on all future .22 pistols if we go hell for leather with applications.We dont know what this cap will be ..Yet. So heres a choice ..Do like what we did with the CF pistols and scare the bejasus out of the govt and AGS with a surge of new apllications and loose it for future once some anti gun minister like that Louth reptile gets back in power and is called out by someone like that creep Deasy?
    OR do we say, unlike what you thought I said.. Simply look this is the situation mr newbie we know that our govt is anti gun no matter how we dress up this pig.So we know at the moment a Domeclean sword is over us on this in the form of a "dramatic rise in apllications"of which we have no numbers yet and wont have until mid 2016 by the earliest if at that.We have to limit for the long term good of the sports survival.How many new aplications SOLEY for .22 pistols we can take on at the moment.Join up and when we have some idea of numbers per annum or what figures the govt is going to be comfortable with you will be signed off right away on a first come first served.In the meantime use the club guns gain experiance and see if it is for you,as it isnt for everyone and we get a chance to see are you really doung this because you want to shoot pistol or are just a potential "got one cos i want one"type?
    So tell me how is that hyprocritical or closing the doors on new people "Lakesider"?
    I want this sport to survive and I'd like to be doing this sport in my 90s here as I missed 35 years of it courtsey to govt idiocy and I dont want it lost by our own short sightnedess and immediate gratification.For once us Irish should try learning from our not too distant history and not be doomed to repeat it?

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #2775
    Rifter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 211 ✭✭Rifter


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Ah and heres the first one....
    Try Thinking about this a moment...We know that there will be a cap on all future .22 pistols if we go hell for leather with applications.We dont know what this cap will be ..Yet. So heres a choice ..Do like what we did with the CF pistols and scare the bejasus out of the govt and AGS with a surge of new apllications and loose it for future once some anti gun minister like that Louth reptile gets back in power and is called out by someone like that creep Deasy?
    OR do we say, unlike what you thought I said.. Simply look this is the situation mr newbie we know that our govt is anti gun no matter how we dress up this pig.So we know at the moment a Domeclean sword is over us on this in the form of a "dramatic rise in apllications"of which we have no numbers yet and wont have until mid 2016 by the earliest if at that.We have to limit for the long term good of the sports survival.How many new aplications SOLEY for .22 pistols we can take on at the moment.Join up and when we have some idea of numbers per annum or what figures the govt is going to be comfortable with you will be signed off right away on a first come first served.In the meantime use the club guns gain experiance and see if it is for you,as it isnt for everyone and we get a chance to see are you really doung this because you want to shoot pistol or are just a potential "got one cos i want one"type?
    So tell me how is that hyprocritical or closing the doors on new people "Lakesider"?
    I want this sport to survive and I'd like to be doing this sport in my 90s here as I missed 35 years of it courtsey to govt idiocy and I dont want it lost by our own short sightnedess and immediate gratification.For once us Irish should try learning from our not too distant history and not be doomed to repeat it?

    I for one think the idea of graduated licencing is a great idea if implemented properly, e.g

    Shooter A wants to fire Cf pistol, to do this he/she spends a year in a target club shooting .22lr conpetitively OR recreationally!! After a year the club sign off on him/her and he/she is free to apply for a cf pistol!

    The same could be said for Cf SA aswell!
    (however i think a cf sa would make an excellent foxing/deer rilfe) and isnt necessarily a target only rifle!


  • #2776
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Rifter wrote: »
    I for one think the idea of graduated licencing is a great idea if implemented properly, e.g

    Shooter A wants to fire Cf pistol, to do this he/she spends a year in a target club shooting .22lr conpetitively OR recreationally!! After a year the club sign off on him/her and he/she is free to apply for a cf pistol!
    That's almost the worst possible idea, for a few reasons:
    1. Shooter A is out of luck at the moment anyway as CF pistol isn't available to them;

    2. That plan would tie Shooter A to whatever club he or she got "apprenticed" to (and yes, we've seen that idea trotted out in the past, and it was just as horrendously abusable then as now). Which would mean the club could charge them whatever they wanted to, amongst other problems like the club's legal liability.

    3. That plan completely contraverts the core foundational parts of the Firearms Act, namely the whole "Do you have a good reason to have this firearm" part. The bit that hasn't changed since 1925. One of the few parts of the Act that's remained intact through more than a dozen amending acts, because it's the bit that makes the most sense; and this plan would wipe that out because Shooter A would have no good reason to have that smallbore pistol, because they want to shoot something else and are being forced to use it.

    4. The plan gains you nothing anyway. You don't shoot CF pistol the way you shoot smallbore pistol or the way you shoot air pistol. In fact, even between the different disciplines using the same kind of pistol you get changes in how you shoot (compare 50m pistol to 25m pistol). Yes, some things carry over and yes, you can move from one to the other, but you cannot pick up a CF pistol after shooting air or smallbore for a year and know what you're doing the way you can if you shot CF pistol from scratch. If you want to shoot in a particular discipline; start shooting in that discipline. You can shoot other stuff for training (hell, I shot 10m air pistol for 10m air rifle trigger training); but this is not like learning arithmetic before calculus. Stuff does not build in a logical order here.

    5. The plan does nothing for public safety because apprenticing with a smallbore pistol before trying another kind of pistol just hasn't anything to do with safety. If someone's unsafe with a firearm, you don't grant them a different kind of firearm, you just don't give them a licence full stop. Ever. In fact, the law specifically prohibits Gardai from doing just that. And if it has nothing to do with public safety, it shouldn't be in the Firearms Act.


  • #2777
    Rifter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 211 ✭✭Rifter


    Sparks wrote: »
    That's almost the worst possible idea, for a few reasons:
    1. Shooter A is out of luck at the moment anyway as CF pistol isn't available to them;

    2. That plan would tie Shooter A to whatever club he or she got "apprenticed" to (and yes, we've seen that idea trotted out in the past, and it was just as horrendously abusable then as now). Which would mean the club could charge them whatever they wanted to, amongst other problems like the club's legal liability.

    3. That plan completely contraverts the core foundational parts of the Firearms Act, namely the whole "Do you have a good reason to have this firearm" part. The bit that hasn't changed since 1925. One of the few parts of the Act that's remained intact through more than a dozen amending acts, because it's the bit that makes the most sense; and this plan would wipe that out because Shooter A would have no good reason to have that smallbore pistol, because they want to shoot something else and are being forced to use it.

    4. The plan gains you nothing anyway. You don't shoot CF pistol the way you shoot smallbore pistol or the way you shoot air pistol. In fact, even between the different disciplines using the same kind of pistol you get changes in how you shoot (compare 50m pistol to 25m pistol). Yes, some things carry over and yes, you can move from one to the other, but you cannot pick up a CF pistol after shooting air or smallbore for a year and know what you're doing the way you can if you shot CF pistol from scratch. If you want to shoot in a particular discipline; start shooting in that discipline. You can shoot other stuff for training (hell, I shot 10m air pistol for 10m air rifle trigger training); but this is not like learning arithmetic before calculus. Stuff does not build in a logical order here.

    5. The plan does nothing for public safety because apprenticing with a smallbore pistol before trying another kind of pistol just hasn't anything to do with safety. If someone's unsafe with a firearm, you don't grant them a different kind of firearm, you just don't give them a licence full stop. Ever. In fact, the law specifically prohibits Gardai from doing just that. And if it has nothing to do with public safety, it shouldn't be in the Firearms Act.

    Fair enough, I suppose I hadnt thought about it like that! I did think it had merits until now!
    ( my post was based on the assumption that Cf pistols would become licenceable agin to new applicants)


  • #2778
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Rifter wrote: »
    Fair enough, I suppose I hadnt thought about it like that! I did think it had merits until now!
    ( my post was based on the assumption that Cf pistols would become licenceable agin to new applicants)

    It's possible that they will in future. Centerfire short restricted firearms are off the table, but the definition of centerfire short restricted firearms is contained in an SI and could be changed over time by the Minister without having to fight through the oireachtas; and we've always known that was a possible option. The problem has always been that they were an unknown quantity to this generation of Gardai and the only firearms they knew outside of air rifles, smallbore rifles and farmers shotguns were emphatically not being used for sport, so they were exceptionally wary of the whole idea at best, and strongly opposed to it at worse (and given what their duty of care is, that's at least understandable even if we find it frustrating and somewhat insulting). But time changes even that kind of thing, especially periods of time where they're in use for sport and nobody ever sees any problem with it.


  • #2779
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Sparks
    Point 2 is solveable easily enough.
    When you go shokting as a newbie with club abc you are under supervision of a instructor and RO.
    You keep an offical club log of how many times Sparks shot on what date, time, ammo count etc.You get it signed off on your own personal copy and say you want to leave club abc and go to club def .You are entitled under dpa act to your offical club records straight off and you have your own personal log as well.No one os tied they have proof of competance. Go to club efg and you get a chance as a guest to shoot CF that can be logged too by your host RO and counts to experiance gained.

    Point 4 .While yes this is true to certain points.I am thinking of it more in saftey. This is pretty commom on the continent for utter newbies to start with an airpistol and work up to .22 and then CF.Simply to see what kind of person you are dealing with and whether they are going thru the motions to get their hands on a firearm or are dedicated to doing this sport for perfectly legal reasons.They have had to do this because of a few mass shootings with ligit held handguns and long guns and the last thing we want or need is this happening here as it will be a slam dunk game over to us who shoot.So is it too wrong for us to think abit pro actively on how we can make this safer ourselves in the future rather than let somthing happen ,god forbid and we are up the creek minus everything?Doesnt have to be done this way but it is something we do have to consider might come about in the future.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #2780
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    So, why are we trying to solve the problems with this idea?
    Nobody other than shooters even mentioned this idea before, and it's not like the idea was welcome the first time it showed up.

    I mean, come on, haven't you got this playing in your head right now? :D

    tumblr_inline_ndd6r9YmvH1rk8etw.jpg


  • #2781
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Sparks wrote: »
    So, why are we trying to solve the problems with this idea?
    Nobody other than shooters even mentioned this idea before, and it's not like the idea was welcome the first time it showed up.

    I mean, come on, haven't you got this playing in your head right now? :D

    tumblr_inline_ndd6r9YmvH1rk8etw.jpg

    Dont have a meme for this .But in the words of Bob Dylan "The times, they are a changing."and I d hope it stays fine for us.But somehow I cant see the status quo being maintained forever either.If we all want to stuck our fingers in our ears and go" laa laaa laa cant hear you dont want to discuss possibilities of a liscense rush because it is too unpleasent to contemplate because everthing will always stay the same la la la!".We might be shocked to find out that it does and we are caught flat footed again.And back we go to another 300 pages of doom and gloom and scapegoating.Cant understand whats wrong with a little bit of forward thinking on what might happen and not this perpetual "Shure we will be grand".school of thought that has got us into unmitigated **** in this country before .

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • #2782
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    There's a gap between reacting to valid concerns though Grizzly, and actively suggesting restrictions and changes to the firearms act that nobody is looking for. Changing legislation is a pain in the fundament, because every change you make has the potential to cause three new problems to crop up.

    And I think we have more than enough problems with the Act as it stands...


  • #2783
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    And I cant fault anything you said there Sparks,its all true.

    BUT what I am trying to point out is that as it stands we do know one potential problem that is blatantly obvious and pressing ,and that is this "dramatic rise in .22 pistol applications or import liscense requests." Im no mathametican,but I dont see any numbers mentioned in there.So how do we handle this?
    Obvious first step is to find out exactly what does DOJ have in mind.5 ,10 ,50 ,500, 50,000?? We wont find that out until either of three things happen.

    1]Our organisations go back and ask for it...
    Which I dont think they will get a reply to as everyone is going into election mode and the bothersome busisness of actually running the country gets sidelined as jobs and seats must be kept for another 5 years.

    2]The FCP and /or FAAA find out,IF set up after the election by whatever govt in power.

    3]We find out the hard way by a liscense rush over the next 6/12 months and play right into their hands,and there is a tempoary cap for another 35 years while this becomes another DOJ door stopper act that no one wants to touch.

    So is this or is this not a valid concern?
    If it is,what do we do to prevent item no 3 from becoming a reality ?
    Only way I see this is by some form of self regulation ourselves in how many new .22 applications we can accpt into our clubs,and I HATE USING this term "For the greater good of us all.":( And if there is some other way of this being prevented and I'm missing it.Please point it out to me.

    If it isnt a valid concern....Sorry for wasting everyones time and please feel free to apply for as many .22 pistols as your heart desires and pocket can afford and the DOJ has no problem with X thousand .22 pistols in the Republic.Somehow I just dont feel that will be happening in this particular multiverse.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #2784
    Big Bangstick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭Big Bangstick


    Grizzly, that sounds very like I'm alright Jack pull up the feckin' ladder!

    And as for them ever allowing new fullbore pistols ......................... yea right!


  • #2785
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Big Bangstick wrote: »
    And as for them ever allowing new fullbore pistols ......................... yea right!
    And as for them ever allowing fullbore pistols... yeah, right!... said everyone I ever spoke to about it from 1993 to 2003.

    In other words, on the one hand you do have to learn what doesn't work because doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is a definition of insanity; but you also have to be careful when saying something can't be done that you watch over your shoulder so you don't get run over by the people doing it.


  • #2786
    Rifter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 211 ✭✭Rifter


    Sparks wrote: »
    And as for them ever allowing fullbore pistols... yeah, right!... said everyone I ever spoke to about it from 1993 to 2003.

    In other words, on the one hand you do have to learn what doesn't work because doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results is a definition of insanity; but you also have to be careful when saying something can't be done that you watch over your shoulder so you don't get run over by the people doing it.

    While i love the optimism, and what im about to say flies in the face of what you've written above, I just can't see any Minister over turning that SI...

    Unless the FAAA is setup rather rapid, has some ground breaking findings in its review, for Ireland, and the FCP can somehow convince the powers that be that licenced firearms are not the problem in this jurisdiction....

    Despite how its framed by the rags everytime something involving said firearms occurs!!

    I remain, sorry to say, sceptical at best Sparks, inspite of everyones best efforts to improve the image and conditions of sport shooting in our little banana "wont somebody think of the children" republic


  • #2787
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Big Bangstick wrote: »
    Grizzly, that sounds very like I'm alright Jack pull up the feckin' ladder!

    And as for them ever allowing new fullbore pistols ......................... yea right!

    And Nr 2 accusation arrives!:P:P
    Sorry,never said that either!I said that we might have to consider somthing on this line to keep our sport going into the future.As if there is a mass application and we blow the unknown number ceiling,it will lock down proably for good.And if there was another way around it,I'd love to hear it and support it.

    Anyone like to try for number 3 accuasition levelled against me?That I shouldnt have taken the court case last year along with others as this has now led to where we are now???Come at me Bro!:D

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #2788
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Im no mathametican,but I dont see any numbers mentioned in there.So how do we handle this?
    We sit inside the tent and we justify whatever rise we do see (and frankly, I don't think we're about to see a 100% spike in applications in the first month. We never had that many prior to '72 in the first place don't forget, and things were a lot easier back then for pistol owners).
    1]Our organisations go back and ask for it...
    Which I dont think they will get a reply to as everyone is going into election mode and the bothersome busisness of actually running the country gets sidelined as jobs and seats must be kept for another 5 years.
    Excellent, as that means nobody's really all that fussed and we can rebuild our sports without someone dropping a rock on our head.
    2]The FCP and /or FAAA find out,IF set up after the election by whatever govt in power.
    Pretty sure they have to be set up now; it's considered very bad form to spend your first day in office overturning your predecessor's last day in office. Also, it just makes sense from the civil service point of view.
    3]We find out the hard way by a liscense rush over the next 6/12 months and play right into their hands,and there is a tempoary cap for another 35 years while this becomes another DOJ door stopper act that no one wants to touch.
    So is this or is this not a valid concern?
    I don't think so.
    Right now there are what, somewhere between a thousand and fifteen hundred smallbore pistols out there? The stats are on here but I'm zonked after a long week and haven't found them, but since we're back-of-an-enveloping it, lets go with 1000.

    Average cost of a high-end issf smallbore pistol is about 2500. Average cost of an entry-level general-purpose smallbore pistol is what, about 500-600 second-hand? Lets skew it to the low end and say we're spending an average across all the pistols of 1000 each. Nice round numbers - 1,000,000 euros worth of pistol.

    Can anyone see use dropping another million euro on smallbore pistols in the next 12 months? I know the official line is the recession is over and can I sell you this magnificent property with nearly fifty square meters of living space for all the money you'll make in the next thirty years; but I personally can't see that much money being dropped on target shooting kit in the next twelve months. The next thirty-six to sixty months, yes, but not twelve.
    If it is,what do we do to prevent item no 3 from becoming a reality ?
    We don't. We're not allowed. It's not a veto afforded to us by law and if you're thinking "I can just restrict entry to my club", you don't have a right to prevent new clubs being formed, so this is just getting yourself a hiding to nowhere.

    Besides which, we want to grow the sport. If a year from now we saw pistol numbers doubled, we'd see twice as many shooters, more or less; that means more matches, more positive PR, more voters enjoying a safe sport. That's a more secure position.

    The DoJ and AGS, a few individual people aside, do not have a problem with a thriving sport - they're concerned with other things we have nothing to do with.

    Frankly, I'm not worried about a sudden spike in pistol numbers leading to a cap; I'm worried people will fall back to old dumb habits and try to pull strokes now that the FCP and FAAA are on the cards. That is something the PTB have a long-standing deep disgust for and it's done more harm to us in the last decade than nearly anything else.


  • #2789
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Rifter wrote: »
    While i love the optimism
    I have been accused of many, many, many things in shooting over the years, but this is one I think most people just couldn't point in my direction :P
    and what im about to say flies in the face of what you've written above, I just can't see any Minister over turning that SI...
    Why not? It's already happened three times.
    You don't overturn SIs, you just amend them. Tweak them. They evolve, they don't revolt or get replaced willy-nilly.
    Say we tweak the SI to allow for ISSF centerfires to be allowed again. That was originally going to be the SI in the first place, after all. That'd be .32s to .38s.
    Then we build up the bullseye shooting and look for the easing of restrictions on that sport's kit, the .45acps.
    I'll grant you, if you wanted a desert eagle .50 cal pistol, that's probably never going to happen; but then again, nobody seems to think good things about them (except people who praise its multitasking ability to shoot bullets and act as a large hammer for putting up shelves).
    I'm not saying there's a huge appetite for this, nor that it'll happen overnight, nor that we wouldn't have to lobby for it; but there's a good argument for it, good evidence to back that up, and a step-by-step route to the goal we'd like to see.
    That's not nothing.
    Unless the FAAA is setup rather rapid, has some ground breaking findings in its review, for Ireland, and the FCP can somehow convince the powers that be that licenced firearms are not the problem in this jurisdiction....
    In case you missed the irony there, you just said that the Minister who just overruled a direct Garda request to crack down on licenced firearms owners and instead started to civilianise firearms licencing thought that licenced firearms are a problem.

    Honestly, we've not had news this good in a long, long, long time.


  • #2790
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    We are much better served by rules embedded in SIs then primary legislation that's for sure.


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  • #2791
    lakesider
    Closed Accounts Posts: 136 ✭✭lakesider


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    And Nr 2 accusation arrives!:P:P
    Sorry,never said that either!I said that we might have to consider somthing on this line to keep our sport going into the future.As if there is a mass application and we blow the unknown number ceiling,it will lock down proably for good.And if there was another way around it,I'd love to hear it and support it.

    Anyone like to try for number 3 accuasition levelled against me?That I shouldnt have taken the court case last year along with others as this has now led to where we are now???Come at me Bro!:D

    well in fairness your the guy making all the speeches about standing together and us not throwing each other to the wolves when in fact your the first man to suggest kicking the door shut in future participants faces in case it affects you:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    8LVBBRC.png


  • #2792
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,789 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    There won't be a surge in new pistol applications. It will be the same as we have now. A few new people will sign up to the sport each year, a few will drop out.

    It's not like the miniscule change in the law will open the floodgates.

    The new SI just removes some of the stupid reasons that a few Gardai were using to refuse to licence certain makes and models of .22 pistol.


  • #2793
    yubabill1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    And I cant fault anything you said there Sparks,its all true.

    BUT what I am trying to point out is that as it stands we do know one potential problem that is blatantly obvious and pressing ,and that is this "dramatic rise in .22 pistol applications or import liscense requests." Im no mathametican,but I dont see any numbers mentioned in there.So how do we handle this?
    Obvious first step is to find out exactly what does DOJ have in mind.5 ,10 ,50 ,500, 50,000?? We wont find that out until either of three things happen.

    My 2c on this FWIW is that the Minister had to address AGS concerns about proliferation, so in the honourable tradition of politics, she kicked the can down the road (and hopefully into someone else's lap) - much the same as she did with shooter's concerns.

    Me? I'm going with the herd - wait to see what the next Minister makes of this, while keeping my powder dry, of course.


  • #2794
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    lakesider wrote: »
    well in fairness your the guy making all the speeches about standing together and us not throwing each other to the wolves when in fact your the first man to suggest kicking the door shut in future participants faces in case it affects you
    Whatever else you might think, he can't be the first since that line got crossed when the Sports Coalition decided to propose a cap on all centerfire semiauto rifles when that wasn't even being sought...


  • #2795
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    lakesider wrote: »
    well in fairness your the guy making all the speeches about standing together and us not throwing each other to the wolves when in fact your the first man to suggest kicking the door shut in future participants faces in case it affects you:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    8LVBBRC.png

    Either you are hard of comprehension in English 101 or are just argueing the toss at this stage.
    I have never suggested kicking the door closed in anyones face.If I have show me where in my post i stated such .I said we night have to consider such a move of regulating ourselves to keep the sport going because if there is a mass apllication in a given time frame that breaches an unknown number of apllications in the DOJ.It locks the future apllications down under this temp cap.Capis?What would you rather have?
    Locking the sport down entirely with no new liscenses being granted under a temp cap because of short sightnedess and mass panic or stupid childish idiots out there saying "wanna .22 because everyone else has one an if they cant have no fair an ill wreck it for everyone by encouraging everyone to aplly and blow the cap.That will show them"I have had that sort of stupidity stated as well.
    Or until we know whats what and have some figures to be able to know wtf is going on and where we are going post election to simply explain the situation to newbies that we cant support a mass aplication system on these grounds or because simply we dont have the facilities to deal with a mass apllication of pistol shooters in our clubs.And this the reason we are go slowing it.
    I want this sport to grow too and I learned from the CF pistol debacle which some obviously wont o rcant and whatdestroyed it was partially by it going too quick too fast and scaring the sht out of the PTB.
    Going softly softly has alot of merits over bull in a china shop tactics in this case.
    And if you think just because I have my stuff which I fought for and paid for in money and court time I want to pull up the ladder you are sadly mistaken.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • #2796
    lakesider
    Closed Accounts Posts: 136 ✭✭lakesider


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Either you are hard of comprehension in English 101 or are just argueing the toss at this stage.
    I have never suggested kicking the door closed in anyones face.If I have show me where in my post i stated such .I said we night have to consider such a move of regulating ourselves to keep the sport going because if there is a mass apllication in a given time frame that breaches an unknown number of apllications in the DOJ.It locks the future apllications down under this temp cap.Capis?What would you rather have?
    Locking the sport down entirely with no new liscenses being granted under a temp cap because of short sightnedess and mass panic or stupid childish idiots out there saying "wanna .22 because everyone else has one an if they cant have no fair an ill wreck it for everyone by encouraging everyone to aplly and blow the cap.That will show them"I have had that sort of stupidity stated as well.
    Or until we know whats what and have some figures to be able to know wtf is going on and where we are going post election to simply explain the situation to newbies that we cant support a mass aplication system on these grounds or because simply we dont have the facilities to deal with a mass apllication of pistol shooters in our clubs.And this the reason we are go slowing it.
    I want this sport to grow too and I learned from the CF pistol debacle which some obviously wont o rcant and whatdestroyed it was partially by it going too quick too fast and scaring the sht out of the PTB.
    Going softly softly has alot of merits over bull in a china shop tactics in this case.
    And if you think just because I have my stuff which I fought for and paid for in money and court time I want to pull up the ladder you are sadly mistaken.

    QIeJ9Ji.jpg


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  • #2797
    Big Bangstick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭Big Bangstick


    Grizzly, you suggested we limit the amount of new people clubs should accept & that clubs should limit who can get access to a .22 pistol in case there's a rush of applications (if I get a chance to find the relevant posts I'll post 'em here. Unless you've already edited them of course). I suppose it's easy for you though to suggest closing the proverbial doors seen as your .22 application is in a while & will probably be granted now and I can't find that post at the moment either.

    Sparks, I'd love to be run over by people getting new pistol licences for fullbore pistols. At least I could then get one then seen as I wasn't quick enough the last time. I don't think it's gonna happen though and if it does I'll eats as much humble pie as you can get me!


  • #2798
    Big Bangstick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭Big Bangstick


    yubabill1 wrote: »
    My 2c on this FWIW is that the Minister had to address AGS concerns about proliferation, so in the honourable tradition of politics, she kicked the can down the road (and hopefully into someone else's lap) - much the same as she did with shooter's concerns.

    They're fair points.


  • #2799
    Big Bangstick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43 ✭Big Bangstick


    Sparks you said the original SI was going to allow fullbore in ISSF. Why didn't that happen? That would have been a great way to build fullbore pistol side of the sport surely.


  • #2800
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Big Bangstick wrote: »
    Sparks you said the original SI was going to allow fullbore in ISSF. Why didn't that happen? That would have been a great way to build fullbore pistol side of the sport surely.

    As pointed out here,
    ...someone stood up in front of the people in the AGS who were most opposed to firearms and stated that his 9mm would fit in the ISSF measuring box and followed the ISSF rules so why couldn't he have it. At that point, the Restricted List draft effectively (though I'm paraphrasing) said "any pistol governed by ISSF rules" -- which meant that all of the .32, .38 and 9mm pistols would have remained unrestricted. The next day, those lovely folks in the AGS sent inquiries in and within a few hours, we'd lost those centerfires too, because someone opened his mouth without engaging his brain in front of the wrong people when the topic of the meeting was a completely seperate and equally serious matter (yes, equally serious. You think taking away the pistol is the only way to kill pistol shooting? You need a range too...)


  • #2801
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Big Bangstick wrote: »
    Grizzly, you suggested we limit the amount of new people clubs should accept & that clubs should limit who can get access to a .22 pistol in case there's a rush of applications (if I get a chance to find the relevant posts I'll post 'em here. Unless you've already edited them of course). I suppose it's easy for you though to suggest closing the proverbial doors seen as your .22 application is in a while & will probably be granted now and I can't find that post at the moment either.
    /quote]

    I dont edit my posts or need to post silly childish memes because I cant argue my points like some here when they know they are owned and are hurting.

    Oh its soo easy for me isnt it 5 thousand euros in three DC courts and a HC case to fight to keep my stuff....What was your dog in the fight?
    Oh I shouldnt have done that either no doubt as I proably triggered the whole thing too.So blame me for that too and six others..But you know what?Im not surprised of this artitude ....And guess what?I dont care either .I guess alot of people dont want to deal with potential problems and want to stick their heads in the sand(and leave their asses exposed for kicking)
    Or have a serious case of the ol green eyed monster jealousy...well cry us a river build us a bridge and get the fk over it.

    So go find a smart meme for all this or try to actually see this is a hypothecial discussion of what might or might not happen and not a command to deny anyone anything.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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