New Household Tax - Boycott

!3theraven · 30-07-2011 4:11pm

bmaxi wrote: »

I don't think people have actually cottoned on to what this means. This is a tax on your home, it is not a service charge. I have already paid thousands of pounds/euros in taxes on my home so I could own it outright. What this is saying is,I don't own it. It is not like tax on your car, where once you've paid vat or registration tax, the car is yours to do what you like with, any further tax you pay is for access to a public service. This is feudalism by another name.

Well said, like you I also paid thousands of pounds/euros in taxes on my home in the form of stamp duty,so I could own it outright, and I boughy my house back in 1997, way before the whole housing/property bubble started, this property tax is bluntly telling homeowners they longer own their own homes.

Godge · 30-07-2011 9:59pm

bmaxi wrote: »

I don't think people have actually cottoned on to what this means. This is a tax on your home, it is not a service charge. I have already paid thousands of pounds/euros in taxes on my home so I could own it outright. What this is saying is,I don't own it. It is not like tax on your car, where once you've paid vat or registration tax, the car is yours to do what you like with, any further tax you pay is for access to a public service. This is feudalism by another name.

Eh, if I recall correctly, I just paid 443 euro to tax my car for another year. I paid thousands of euro in VRT and VAT when I bought the car and I pay car tax every year. To my knowledge, that car tax is not set aside for any particular reason and is put directly into the central funding.

If my house is brought in line with my car, so be it.

bmaxi · 30-07-2011 10:59pm

Godge wrote: »

Eh, if I recall correctly, I just paid 443 euro to tax my car for another year. I paid thousands of euro in VRT and VAT when I bought the car and I pay car tax every year. To my knowledge, that car tax is not set aside for any particular reason and is put directly into the central funding.

If my house is brought in line with my car, so be it.

That's because you are availing of a public service, i.e. the road. Once you have paid VAT and VRT the car is yours to dispose of as you see fit.
IMO what this tax is doing is making the Government your ground landlord. If they want to impose service charges, so be it, but this is different.

Pete_Cavan · 31-07-2011 10:47am

bmaxi wrote: »

That's because you are availing of a public service, i.e. the road. Once you have paid VAT and VRT the car is yours to dispose of as you see fit.
IMO what this tax is doing is making the Government your ground landlord. If they want to impose service charges, so be it, but this is different.

Home owners also avail of public services such as water, sewerage, Gardai, hospitals, education, postal service, fire service, etc.* A property tax is not telling homeowners they longer own their own homes, it is telling them you have to pay for the services the state provides for you. We can no longer borrow €20bn a year to provide all these services.

And before anyone comes back and says something about "bend over and take it" blah blah, until you find another source of funding for the country, or manage to bring our expenditure in line with our income without cutting services, you are just living in denial.

*For all those who are about to say that they pay for their own well/septic tank; the cost of Gardai, hospitals, education, postal service, fire service is higher in sparsely populated rural areas so it is only fair you make an increased contribution towards the services you do use.

bmaxi · 31-07-2011 11:07am

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Home owners also avail of public services such as water, sewerage, Gardai, hospitals, education, postal service, fire service, etc.* A property tax is not telling homeowners they longer own their own homes, it is telling them you have to pay for the services the state provides for you. We can no longer borrow €20bn a year to provide all these services.

And before anyone comes back and says something about "bend over and take it" blah blah, until you find another source of funding for the country, or manage to bring our expenditure in line with our income without cutting services, you are just living in denial.

*For all those who are about to say that they pay for their own well/septic tank; the cost of Gardai, hospitals, education, postal service, fire service is higher in sparsely populated rural areas so it is only fair you make an increased contribution towards the services you do use.

Maybe if you took time to read the post you'd see that I'm not opposed to service charges per se, I'm opposed to the fact that the Government are potentially being given a stake in my home, which I have bought and paid for.

Pete_Cavan · 31-07-2011 12:06pm

bmaxi wrote: »

Maybe if you took time to read the post you'd see that I'm not opposed to service charges per se, I'm opposed to the fact that the Government are potentially being given a stake in my home, which I have bought and paid for.

I read your post. How is a property tax akin to the government getting a stake in your home? Do you also think the government has a stake in your car, which you pay motor tax on? or the box of Cornflakes you bought for your breakfast, which you pay VAT on?

That is just over-dramatic, sensationalist crap.

Andrew33 · 31-07-2011 12:18pm

RedXIV wrote: »

As another someone with 2 kids, I sympathise. but I'm not gonna get thrown out of my house for an extra €9 a month

And just who exactly is going to put you out of your house?
Do you believe they'll stop at €100 per year?
Do you believe they'll drop the €100 per year when they introduce the water rates and the property tax?
They will in their hole, they'll call it something else and continue to collect it.
You stand up and fight now or you (and your kids) will spend the rest of your life in Ireland on your fcuking knees.

Bens · 31-07-2011 12:36pm

I posted this suggestion in another thread

My proposal is just to remove all property related tax reliefs.
Mortgage Interest relief.
Rental tax credits.
Investor mortgage interest relief.

That way they would raise far more than having a property tax. Everyone investing, renting or owning a house would be caught in the net. And you dont pay extra tax, you just get less of a discount on your tax.
And it costs NOTHING at all to collect. They just remove the tax break you already have.
And its impossible to just refuse it.
People on low incomes who dont pay tax arent effected at all.
What could be easier.

Maybe you shouldnt have to pay tax on your home, but Why on earth should anyone one get tax relief for where they live at all, be they renting or owning?

And for the people saying "Every other European country has a property tax, why shouldnt we"
I bet you wont see people coming out with "Every European country has a religion related tax so we should pay that too."

Generally its the people who didnt buy houses who want a property tax. As usual everyone wants the other person to pay more tax.

Maybe we should just have something like rates, where everyone pays just for living in an area - owning or renting. Then you'll see the people wishing for more taxes suddenly about turn.

bmaxi · 31-07-2011 12:43pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I read your post. How is a property tax akin to the government getting a stake in your home? Do you also think the government has a stake in your car, which you pay motor tax on? or the box of Cornflakes you bought for your breakfast, which you pay VAT on?

That is just over-dramatic, sensationalist crap.

No they don't, which is the whole point. Try reading the thread.

thebman · 31-07-2011 5:46pm

Bens wrote: »

I posted this suggestion in another thread

My proposal is just to remove all property related tax reliefs.
Mortgage Interest relief.
Rental tax credits.
Investor mortgage interest relief.

That way they would raise far more than having a property tax. Everyone investing, renting or owning a house would be caught in the net. And you dont pay extra tax, you just get less of a discount on your tax.
And it costs NOTHING at all to collect. They just remove the tax break you already have.
And its impossible to just refuse it.
People on low incomes who dont pay tax arent effected at all.
What could be easier.

Maybe you shouldnt have to pay tax on your home, but Why on earth should anyone one get tax relief for where they live at all, be they renting or owning?

And for the people saying "Every other European country has a property tax, why shouldnt we"
I bet you wont see people coming out with "Every European country has a religion related tax so we should pay that too."

Generally its the people who didnt buy houses who want a property tax. As usual everyone wants the other person to pay more tax.

Maybe we should just have something like rates, where everyone pays just for living in an area - owning or renting. Then you'll see the people wishing for more taxes suddenly about turn.

People that don't own a house still have to pay somehow as they live somewhere so they'll pay in extra rent. Do you really think landlords are going to absorb the cost?

Bens · 31-07-2011 5:55pm

thebman wrote: »

People that don't own a house still have to pay somehow as they live somewhere so they'll pay in extra rent. Do you really think landlords are going to absorb the cost?

No need to worry about landlords.
Landords can only charge what the market will carry.
Its not up to them whether they absorb anything or not. If rent can be got cheaper then thats where the tenants will rent. If it cant, then thats the market price and thats what tenants will have to pay.

Why should anyone whether renting or buying get tax relief on their rent/mortgage?

thebman · 31-07-2011 6:02pm

Bens wrote: »

No need to worry about landlords.
Landords can only charge what the market will carry.
Its not up to them whether they absorb anything or not. If rent can be got cheaper then thats where the tenants will rent. If it cant, then thats the market price and thats what tenants will have to pay.

Why should anyone whether renting or buying get tax relief on their rent/mortgage?

The market isn't that awash with rental property in most areas that people actually want to rent so competition will be very bad. Only the unemployed renting can freely move.

I don't think anybody should get rent or mortgage relief. There are idiotic vote buying reliefs which ignore that the money was taking off the public, lost some along the way and then handed it back to the people.

Bens · 31-07-2011 6:12pm

thebman wrote: »

The market isn't that awash with rental property in most areas that people actually want to rent so competition will be very bad. Only the unemployed renting can freely move.

I don't think anybody should get rent or mortgage relief. There are idiotic vote buying reliefs which ignore that the money was taking off the public, lost some along the way and then handed it back to the people.

You arent making any sense at all tbh.

thebman · 31-07-2011 7:52pm

Bens wrote: »

You arent making any sense at all tbh.

Which part doesn't make sense and why?

Tim Robbins · 31-07-2011 10:29pm

RobitTV wrote: »

Yeah, But dont we pay enough bill's and tax's?

Do we seriously need another 2, and put poorer families under pressure.

Poorer families dont have Money for bill's dont forget that, They dont get everyday treats and surprise's, They just comfort themselves knowing they have some food to feed their children.

So you should go and tell them that, Tell them its "Cheap" And see what they have to say to that.

If they are poor they won't own a house and the tax won't be applicable.

Tim Robbins · 31-07-2011 10:33pm

Bens wrote: »

"Every European country has a religion related tax so we should pay that too."

That's an even better idea than property tax!

Generally its the people who didnt buy houses who want a property tax. As usual everyone wants the other person to pay more tax.

Maybe we should just have something like rates, where everyone pays just for living in an area - owning or renting. Then you'll see the people wishing for more taxes suddenly about turn.

I can only speak for myself but I got burnt twice in the property boom. Down minimum 200K and would still be in favour of this tax.

It really annoys me the way some people are really feeling the pain of the economic collapse whereas some others are barely feeling anything.

A property tax I think distributes the pain more evenly.

And it makes much more economic sense than stamp duty which was anti - transactional.

Son Of A Vidic · 01-08-2011 4:58pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ireland's average response: Bend over and take it up the ass to continue funding bailed out gangsters.

WAKE THE F*** UP, PEOPLE.

And that's the only motivation behind it, not some rubbish notion of replacing the infrastructure. Christ, we still have infrastructure in place that the Brits left us here in the 26.

Bens · 01-08-2011 8:16pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That's an even better idea than property tax!

I can only speak for myself but I got burnt twice in the property boom. Down minimum 200K and would still be in favour of this tax.

It really annoys me the way some people are really feeling the pain of the economic collapse whereas some others are barely feeling anything.

A property tax I think distributes the pain more evenly.

And it makes much more economic sense than stamp duty which was anti - transactional.

There is nothing "even" about it.
A tax where everyone pays it for living in an area, instead of just homeowners would be more even, dont you think?

OhNoYouDidn't · 01-08-2011 8:21pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

That's an even better idea than property tax!

I can only speak for myself but I got burnt twice in the property boom. Down minimum 200K and would still be in favour of this tax.

It really annoys me the way some people are really feeling the pain of the economic collapse whereas some others are barely feeling anything.

A property tax I think distributes the pain more evenly.

And it makes much more economic sense than stamp duty which was anti - transactional.

Please explain this one, I'm fascinated to how you came to that conclusion

Tim Robbins · 01-08-2011 8:54pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Please explain this one, I'm fascinated to how you came to that conclusion

Because as citizens of a society we all carry responsibility to keep society cohesive. This is part of civilization.

I am in favour of all forms of taxes. It is the only way you can make some people respect and acknowledge what they are getting.

Even if you pay for absolutely everything to build your own house, you have no street lighting and have a septic tank in your back garden and hence do not cost the state a penny, you still need to have a stable society in order to have any quality of life. The only reason why you can build your own house is because of the priviledge afforded to you from a stable society. For this priviledge you should pay tax.

My real issue with tax is when it is wasted. Over paying public sector people or throwing it failed banks. Otherwise I am in favour of all forms of taxes.

I am on the left for the collection of taxes and on the right for the use of taxes.

OhNoYouDidn't · 01-08-2011 9:01pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Because as citizens of a society we all carry responsibility to keep society cohesive. This is part of civilization.

I am in favour of all forms of taxes. It is the only way you can make some people respect and acknowledge what they are getting.

Even if you pay for absolutely everything to build your own house, you have no street lighting and have a septic tank in your back garden and hence do not cost the state a penny, you still need to have a stable society in order to have any quality of life. The only reason why you can build your own house is because of the priviledge afforded to you from a stable society. For this priviledge you should pay tax.

My real issue with tax is when it is wasted. Over paying public sector people or throwing it failed banks. Otherwise I am in favour of all forms of taxes.

I am on the left for the collection of taxes and on the right for the use of taxes.

No, no no.

Please explain how a regressive tax (each household to pay the same regardless of income) ' distributes the pain more evenly'

Hoffmans · 01-08-2011 10:10pm

see theres a lot of fine gaeoulers posting on here supporting this rubbish/
if kenny can pay a few billion to some foreign bondbankster then theres no need to be throwing poll tax like liens on peoples homes they already got stampduty or other tolls when they were been conveyenced, so ..now they can go to hell with their troica bed buddies....

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Resist-the-100-Imf-Household-Charge/224104584297287

bmaxi · 01-08-2011 11:28pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If they are poor they won't own a house and the tax won't be applicable.

That's a typical Thatcherite comment, ranks up there with "get on your bike" There are lots of people who are poor and own their homes. They were made poor by the antics of the previous shower of gangsters in government and their developer buddies, now this current government has decided that they aren't poor enough.

Tim Robbins · 02-08-2011 10:37am

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No, no no.

Please explain how a regressive tax (each household to pay the same regardless of income) ' distributes the pain more evenly'

Wealth isn't just about income. It's also about what capital you have.

If you own your house you have capital. You have more capital then someone who does not.

Some people have flashy cars but don't have much income. Do you think they should be exempt as well?

bmaxi wrote:

That's a typical Thatcherite comment, ranks up there with "get on your bike" There are lots of people who are poor and own their homes. They were made poor by the antics of the previous shower of gangsters in government and their developer buddies, now this current government has decided that they aren't poor enough.

The vast majority of people did not care what the developers were doing. They went around saying "this is crazy" but would have rather spent their time watching x-factor, corination street than actually writing an objection to something a developer was trying to do.

bmaxi · 02-08-2011 11:03am

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The vast majority of people did not care what the developers were doing. They went around saying "this is crazy" but would have rather spent their time watching x-factor, corination street than actually writing an objection to something a developer was trying to do.

You really did go to the Thatcher finishing school, where how to heap the blame on to everyone but those responsible, is an "A" subject.
As I recall, in my area, when objections were raised there were always plenty of rent boys in the local council to override them and if that failed, the County Manager or Bord Pleanála could always be counted on.
The people were told over and over again by those trusted to run the country, that the good times were here to stay. Even when concerns were raised, those raising them were encouraged to go and top themselves.
Probably the biggest mistake made in a democracy is to put your faith in crooked politicians but when you have arse covering from all sides and no culpability, it's an easy mistake to make. Let's just hope we haven't made it again.

Tim Robbins · 02-08-2011 11:12am

bmaxi wrote: »

You really did go to the Thatcher finishing school, where how to heap the blame on to everyone but those responsible, is an "A" subject.
As I recall, in my area, when objections were raised there were always plenty of rent boys in the local council to override them and if that failed, the County Manager or Bord Pleanála could always be counted on.
The people were told over and over again by those trusted to run the country, that the good times were here to stay. Even when concerns were raised, those raising them were encouraged to go and top themselves.
Probably the biggest mistake made in a democracy is to put your faith in crooked politicians but when you have arse covering from all sides and no culpability, it's an easy mistake to make. Let's just hope we haven't made it again.

Me a thatcherite! You're more like a shinner against every form of tax except those on 100K a year!

In my area, I checked the number of the objectives and it was always pretty pretty bleak. One time I went to a planning meeting organised by the socialist party and I was the only person who turned up to it.

Some thatcherite - eh :-)

Where I'd differ from Thatcherites is that I would have taxes on nearly everything. She wouldn't. Where I would agree with her is cutting out waste.

highgiant1985 · 02-08-2011 12:39pm

bmaxi wrote: »

That's a typical Thatcherite comment, ranks up there with "get on your bike" There are lots of people who are poor and own their homes. They were made poor by the antics of the previous shower of gangsters in government and their developer buddies, now this current government has decided that they aren't poor enough.

wouldn't poor people be renting anyway and what will happen in that case? Will Landlords just charge the renters the cost of this fee?

alejandro1977 · 02-08-2011 12:55pm

highgiant1985 wrote: »

wouldn't poor people be renting anyway and what will happen in that case? Will Landlords just charge the renters the cost of this fee?

In the UK renters have to pay the council tax; however ion Ireland there's so much extra housing that renters have more power- and rents are lower or should be.

However I suspect many people will claim to be poor actually own their own house and are not poor my normal international standards. Those working in the black economy will have to start paying their fair share.That's the great thing about a property tax - even Tony Soprano has to pay property tax. The Unions will come out again and say that only Mansions/Trophy Houses should be subject...

Of course the Labour Party was the party that wanted to get rid of the Residential Property Tax - why has that slipped the memory of so many people?

Fergus Finlay's book gives an interesting account of the objections of the wealthy people in Kildare to the RPT in the 1990s (?)

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/site/farming-Weaning-Irish-off-damaging-addiction-to-property-11343.html

bmaxi · 02-08-2011 1:51pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Me a thatcherite! You're more like a shinner against every form of tax except those on 100K a year!

In my area, I checked the number of the objectives and it was always pretty pretty bleak. One time I went to a planning meeting organised by the socialist party and I was the only person who turned up to it.

Some thatcherite - eh :-)

Where I'd differ from Thatcherites is that I would have taxes on nearly everything. She wouldn't. Where I would agree with her is cutting out waste.

Nope, not a shinner, though I predict quite a few Labour supporters will be come the next election, if you care to read a few posts back you'd see I'm not against service charges per se. Their abolition was an unmitigated disaster and another example of FF's "live for today and worry about the future when we get there", policies.
What I object to in this tax is the lien it places on the family home.

Tim Robbins · 02-08-2011 2:09pm

bmaxi wrote: »

Nope, not a shinner, though I predict quite a few Labour supporters will be come the next election, if you care to read a few posts back you'd see I'm not against service charges per se. Their abolition was an unmitigated disaster and another example of FF's "live for today and worry about the future when we get there", policies.
What I object to in this tax is the lien it places on the family home.

What line? It will be less .1% of the value of the family home and that's when it will rise to 300 per year.

You live in your family home, you pay a mere 4% tax on the value of it over 40 years.

Seems like the fairest and lowest tax we have.

alejandro1977 · 02-08-2011 2:09pm

bmaxi wrote: »

What I object to in this tax is the lien it places on the family home.

how else would it be enforced?

The State provides the rule of law in Ireland- that includes property rights and 100E p.a. is a small price for defending proper title.

Liens are the norm in the US I believe if the property tax isn't paid

Tim Robbins · 02-08-2011 2:22pm

alejandro1977 wrote: »

how else would it be enforced?

The State provides the rule of law in Ireland- that includes property rights and 100E p.a. is a small price for defending proper title.

Liens are the norm in the US I believe if the property tax isn't paid

Exactly. If it was not for the state you would never own a house.
You would have no legal protection on your rights as an owner.

FreudianSlippers · 02-08-2011 2:25pm

... aren't the majority of people bitching about this tax living in council housing already?!

Bullseye1 · 02-08-2011 3:20pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

... aren't the majority of people bitching about this tax living in council housing already?!

I wouldn't think so. I'm sure there is a large section of home owners struggling to pay their mortgage who are not relying on the state to pay their way.

Tim Robbins · 02-08-2011 4:11pm

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I wouldn't think so. I'm sure there is a large section of home owners struggling to pay their mortgage who are not relying on the state to pay their way.

You are better off if you are struggling to pay your morgage - better chance of debt forgiveness.

It's those who are stuck trying to bring up families who bought one bed and two bed apartments to get on the ladder who are really hammered. Not in enough debt to get debt forgiveness but still scr*wed.

Paying for their own mistakes and everyone elses.

LeixlipRed · 02-08-2011 4:47pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

... aren't the majority of people bitching about this tax living in council housing already?!

This is actually the most borderline offensive thing I've read on here in a long time. Implication, only poor people complain :rolleyes:

Tim Robbins · 02-08-2011 7:45pm

LeixlipRed wrote: »

This is actually the most borderline offensive thing I've read on here in a long time. Implication, only poor people complain :rolleyes:

In comparison to all other taxes this one is pretty bleedin weak. 100 euro is 12 hours work at minimum wage.

And if you so poor that a bank would never give you a mortgage or has already repossessed your house you are getting a way better deal renting and won't have to worry about this tax.

OhNoYouDidn't · 03-08-2011 12:41am

Tim Robbins wrote: »

In comparison to all other taxes this one is pretty bleedin weak. 100 euro is 12 hours work at minimum wage.

And if you so poor that a bank would never give you a mortgage or has already repossessed your house you are getting a way better deal renting and won't have to worry about this tax.

Or 5 mins work for a barrister.

That is the problem with a regressive tax that you keep conveniently avoiding.

Why not just increase lower rate PAYE 1% and higher 2%? Job is done. Fair. Equitable.

bmaxi · 03-08-2011 10:55am

alejandro1977 wrote: »

how else would it be enforced?

The State provides the rule of law in Ireland- that includes property rights and 100E p.a. is a small price for defending proper title.

Liens are the norm in the US I believe if the property tax isn't paid

Oh well, if it's ok in the US it must be a good thing, they have such a good grip on everything. I suppose leaving people to die because they can't afford the right insurance is next on the list.
People, well those who seem to think €100 is small change and presumably see the €1000 it'll probably be in a few years as the same, need to realise that this legislation has the capacity to take away the home bought and paid for, probably over many years, purely because of inability to pay. You may not always be as flush as you are now, there are many people in Ireland living hand to mouth who, only a short time ago, thought the same way.

Tim Robbins · 03-08-2011 3:46pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Or 5 mins work for a barrister.

That is the problem with a regressive tax that you keep conveniently avoiding.

Why not just increase lower rate PAYE 1% and higher 2%? Job is done. Fair. Equitable.

Well a lot of Barristers never make it and spend their lives as office admin but applying your point to say 'consultants' or any high earners - they already pay income tax which is in proportion to their income.

Not all taxes should be based on income. Could you imagine VAT changed for your income?

A tax system should be a split between income and consumer usage. I have no problem with that.

A TV license which is more than the first round of property tax has nothing to do with your income. It is also far more unfair because you pay even if you never watch RTE.

alejandro1977 · 03-08-2011 4:03pm

bkeano wrote: »

Hi all Boardies

Can we all please make a stance here and get our non boardies to do the same. Enough is Enough We should not pay this new household Tax. Its the same as the Poll tax in the UK. I am an normal Joe Soap with 2 kids. I cant pay any more Taxes. I can afford it as it is. I am lucky to have my Job.

We need to mount a serious objection here and nationwide.

are also planning to boycott income tax? If not why not?

OhNoYouDidn't · 03-08-2011 5:57pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Well a lot of Barristers never make it and spend their lives as office admin but applying your point to say 'consultants' or any high earners - they already pay income tax which is in proportion to their income.

They do. Its a progressive tax.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Not all taxes should be based on income. Could you imagine VAT changed for your income?

No, hence it's called VAT.

Economists have always argued against sales taxes on their inherent unfairness. There is also a reason there is no VAT on food and medicine by the way.

Tim Robbins wrote: »

A tax system should be a split between income and consumer usage. I have no problem with that.

You think people 'consume' their family home?

Tim Robbins wrote: »

A TV license which is more than the first round of property tax has nothing to do with your income. It is also far more unfair because you pay even if you never watch RTE.

But you can chose not to watch TV. You can't really chose not to have a family home.

I understand the pragmatic argument, even if I disagree with it. You actively welcome a regressive tax on homes that can see you lose the deeds if you cannot or will not pay it. And spare me the waffle that its only €100. You know as well as I do it will be increased and increased a lot when they get the infrastructure in place to do so.

alejandro1977 · 03-08-2011 7:17pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

They do. Its a progressive tax.

No, hence it's called VAT.

Economists have always argued against sales taxes on their inherent unfairness. There is also a reason there is no VAT on food and medicine by the way.

You think people 'consume' their family home?

Links to your economists?

Actually many economists favour VAT as it is a consumption tax - in the US it's regarded as politically unpopular to introduce a new tax even though it's favoured by many experts.

Actually you do consume your home - you can chose to live modestly or in a big FO Celtic Tiger MacMansion complete with Jacuzzi

Tim Robbins · 03-08-2011 10:39pm

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But you can chose not to watch TV. You can't really chose not to have a family home.

Of course you can choose. You can rent.

Do you believe Car tax is fair because you choose to have a car? Ok so say you choose not to have a car. Following that logic, public transport should be free.

I understand the pragmatic argument, even if I disagree with it. You actively welcome a regressive tax on homes that can see you lose the deeds if you cannot or will not pay it. And spare me the waffle that its only €100. You know as well as I do it will be increased and increased a lot when they get the infrastructure in place to do so.

Yes. Hopefully it will be increased.

If you cannot pay because you are on unemployed - fair enough. Otherwise you pay for it.

It's extremely unlikely to push anyone into poverty. I think people just don't like the idea of it because they hate paying any form of tax. Particularly ones that are difficult to avoid.

Don't you think it's funny that people are going mad over a tax that is 100 euro when there is already a tax for 150 odd euro for one contraption in their house.

Property tax is extremly fair. Overall it's a tiny percentage of the capital value of the house.

Sizzler · 03-08-2011 10:45pm

Have to say out of sheer principle I wont be paying it. I see theres people on here saying its only €9 or so a month...so what? Its a tax that will be pi**ed up against the wall.......just like my private pension money was raided recently, for what, to reduce VAT so the majority of businesses could trouser the 4.5% ! F**k that.

Anybody lucky enough to be working has got USC as well as tax credit narrowing, worse already yet to come next year and now they want another few quid with water charges also looming!! No way !

Are they really going to take 100,000 people to court for non payment, thats ball park and a very modest figure but not a bad starting point, I can see at least 100k of people not paying it.

This isnt a brainwashing exercise its just my own opinion, good luck to anybody who will pay it when they get the bill

Tim Robbins · 04-08-2011 9:11am

Sizzler wrote: »

Have to say out of sheer principle I wont be paying it. I see theres people on here saying its only €9 or so a month...so what? Its a tax that will be pi**ed up against the wall.......just like my private pension money was raided recently, for what, to reduce VAT so the majority of businesses could trouser the 4.5% ! F**k that.

Anybody lucky enough to be working has got USC as well as tax credit narrowing, worse already yet to come next year and now they want another few quid with water charges also looming!! No way !

Are they really going to take 100,000 people to court for non payment, thats ball park and a very modest figure but not a bad starting point, I can see at least 100k of people not paying it.

This isnt a brainwashing exercise its just my own opinion, good luck to anybody who will pay it when they get the bill

Do you pay your tv license?

bmaxi · 04-08-2011 10:23pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Of course you can choose. You can rent.

Do you believe Car tax is fair because you choose to have a car? Ok so say you choose not to have a car. Following that logic, public transport should be free.

Yes. Hopefully it will be increased.

If you cannot pay because you are on unemployed - fair enough. Otherwise you pay for it.

It's extremely unlikely to push anyone into poverty. I think people just don't like the idea of it because they hate paying any form of tax. Particularly ones that are difficult to avoid.

Don't you think it's funny that people are going mad over a tax that is 100 euro when there is already a tax for 150 odd euro for one contraption in their house.

Property tax is extremly fair. Overall it's a tiny percentage of the capital value of the house.

You don't pay car tax for owning a car, you pay it for using it on the road. If you don't want to watch TV then don't buy one and you won't have to pay a licence but who can do without a home?
I can't believe you still don't get this, I have bought and paid for my house so therefore it is mine. The Government are saying that if I don't pay this tax, for whatever reason, not just if I choose not to, they can take my house. You still seem to be hung up on the €100 thing, Phil Hogan is on record as saying he can't guarantee it will still be €100 next year and experts expect it to double on an annual basis for the next 4 years at least, that will make it €1600 in the life of this Government.
I don't know where you got the impression the unemployed are to be spared payment of the tax, I hadn't heard that, AFAIK if you have bought your house you are liable for the tax, unemployed or not.
It has also been said that it is a temporary tax, so was income tax.

Tim Robbins · 06-08-2011 7:31pm

bmaxi wrote: »

You don't pay car tax for owning a car, you pay it for using it on the road. If you don't want to watch TV then don't buy one and you won't have to pay a licence but who can do without a home?
I can't believe you still don't get this, I have bought and paid for my house so therefore it is mine. The Government are saying that if I don't pay this tax, for whatever reason, not just if I choose not to, they can take my house. You still seem to be hung up on the €100 thing, Phil Hogan is on record as saying he can't guarantee it will still be €100 next year and experts expect it to double on an annual basis for the next 4 years at least, that will make it €1600 in the life of this Government.
I don't know where you got the impression the unemployed are to be spared payment of the tax, I hadn't heard that, AFAIK if you have bought your house you are liable for the tax, unemployed or not.
It has also been said that it is a temporary tax, so was income tax.

The state comes first, you + me second. Why? Because without a state you and me have no rights. Without a state you cannot own your house or anything. The owning of a house is contigent on a hole host of things that others have to do first. You don't seem to recognise this.

So even if you somehow never cost your local authority a penny, you still owe the state something for privilege of been able to buy a house and have it legally in your name.

The sooner this tax comes in the better. Irish people think too much me fein and need to get back to thinking of the idea of a state.

DublinWriter · 06-08-2011 9:07pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The state comes first, you + me second. Why? Because without a state you and me have no rights. Without a state you cannot own your house or anything. The owning of a house is contigent on a hole host of things that others have to do first. You don't seem to recognise this.

I'm sorry, but that argument is just another way of reduxing the 'my country, right or wrong' stance, and how wonderfully well that has worked for the good ol' USA, both left and right.

The state is not a separate entity, without you and me there is no 'state'.

I don't remember giving the state licence to bail out banks and multi-millionaire property developers. Sorry, did I miss a meeting or something?

Your argument is so much apologist nonsense. "Oh the Government f*cked up, now it's only right and proper that we foot the bill...if I don't do as they say then they'll rescind my rights!".

'fess up and tell us are you actually a homeowner paying a mortgage because I'd be really shocked if someone who was could defend this.

bmaxi · 06-08-2011 9:28pm

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The state comes first, you + me second. Why? Because without a state you and me have no rights. Without a state you cannot own your house or anything. The owning of a house is contigent on a hole host of things that others have to do first. You don't seem to recognise this.

So even if you somehow never cost your local authority a penny, you still owe the state something for privilege of been able to buy a house and have it legally in your name.

The sooner this tax comes in the better. Irish people think too much me fein and need to get back to thinking of the idea of a state.

Wow, that's some philosophy, I think you've managed to marry parts of Thatcher, Marx and Hitler. Without me and others like me the State could not exist, not the other way around.
The only person I owe anything to for providing my house is me, any debts to any other parties have been discharged. Are you saying I owe my right to exist to the state?

New Household Tax - Boycott

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