Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Bodkin / Headford Road roundabout replacement [Lights are on!]

Options
24567…32

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    I was at that roundabout at the Arc de triomphe recently. It's quite hypnotising actually. My take on it is the difference there is that that roundabout is a kind of an organised chaos.
    Those are some good drivers in constant peril vs. in Galway you have terrible drivers causing constant peril.


  • Options
    #33
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Ah yes, the Arc de Triomphe. Perhaps the presence of twelve radiating avenues is an ideal way to demonstrate the clock method of negotiating roundabouts? After a lesson or two even Galway drivers might at last be able to rise to the challenge of properly using this three-arm roundabout in Salthill.

    A few points, in no particular order: 1. the Arc de Triomphe was designed and constructed with only horses and carriages in mind; 2. AFAIK there are no (so far unexplained) lines appearing from nowhere; 3. it has pedestrian underpasses; 4. it is not cyclist friendly.








    PS: Still nobody willing or able to provide an engineering precedent or rationale for the sprouting lane on the Bodkin?


  • Options
    #34
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    The only reason I can think of is to accomodate traffic using three entrance lanes from the Headford direction.
    I think you may have to submit a query to the relevant roads engineer in the responsible agency and hope they actually bother to reply.


  • Options
    #35
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    What I'm looking for is a rational evidence-based explanation from the Bodkin Fan Club.

    Looks like I'd be as likely to get such a response from the City Council crew who dreamt it up in the first place...









    .


  • Options
    #36
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Hey, jealousy will get you nowhere.

    Personally I don't really question why it is the way it is. I suppose to me it tells me that I can stay tight to the centre of the roundabout if I am going taking the headford or Sean Mulvoy Rd exit or if I am going taking the bridge exit it is getting me into the correct lane and brings me into a better position so I don't encounter cars that are stopped at the lights on the roundabout. The lane effectively diverts the driver around the cars stopped there at the lights.

    Sorry I'm not great describing things, hope someone can follow my logic.

    This pic may be where the idea comes from. fig2b_23.gif


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,882 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Head The Wall wrote: »
    This pic may be where the idea comes from. fig2b_23.gif

    Is that an American document? Note the Zebra crossings on the arms.


  • Options
    #38
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    What I'm looking for is a rational evidence-based explanation from the Bodkin Fan Club.
    .

    How's about some non-irrational non-car hating evidence for why we are guilty of blasphemy against the gospel of IWH. After all we we can apparently do the impossible and navigate this junction.

    Strike that if we don't hate cars we're not rational. Oh well.


  • Options
    #39
    GekkePrutser
    Closed Accounts Posts: 673 ✭✭✭GekkePrutser


    Head The Wall wrote: »
    Hey, jealousy will get you nowhere.
    This pic may be where the idea comes from.

    That's a completely different scenario. There that lane is clearly meant to be entered from the inside lane of the left/right entrances. The yellow lines end exactly at the path a driver would take in that situation. It's actually similar to the turbo roundabouts we see in Holland. They also have lanes sprouting from the middle, but they are only meant to be entered from the entrance, not by users already on the roundabout.

    In the case of turbo roundabouts it works very well because all the separating lines are elevated like a kerb, which enforces the lane to be used the proper way. If you try to enter it the wrong way you're thrown all over the place because you go over the bump :)

    The one at Terryland is in the middle between 2 entrances so I don't think it was designed for that purpose.


  • Options
    #40
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    How's about some non-irrational non-car hating evidence for why we are guilty of blasphemy against the gospel of IWH. After all we we can apparently do the impossible and navigate this junction.

    Strike that if we don't hate cars we're not rational. Oh well.




    Instead of bluff and bluster (again) why not make an attempt to answer the question I posed regarding the lane that sprouts from the centre island?

    So far I can only presume that you haven't the foggiest idea.


  • Options
    #41
    dr.bollocko
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Instead of bluff and bluster (again) why not make an attempt to answer the question I posed regarding the lane that sprouts from the centre island?

    So far I can only presume that you haven't the foggiest idea.

    Who cares. The lane serves a purpose in that it allows two exit lanes over the quincentennial and another entrance to lanes for those who wish to go further around the roundabout.

    Why does everyone get so goddamned cranky and personal in this forum?

    I was at this roundabout at 5pm again today. Again it was mental. Backed up everywhere. The worst part is exiting from a point which is not controlled by a traffic light such as the tesco exit or coming from town.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    GekkePrutser wrote: »
    That's a completely different scenario. There that lane is clearly meant to be entered from the inside lane of the left/right entrances. The yellow lines end exactly at the path a driver would take in that situation. It's actually similar to the turbo roundabouts we see in Holland. They also have lanes sprouting from the middle, but they are only meant to be entered from the entrance, not by users already on the roundabout.

    In the case of turbo roundabouts it works very well because all the separating lines are elevated like a kerb, which enforces the lane to be used the proper way. If you try to enter it the wrong way you're thrown all over the place because you go over the bump :)

    The one at Terryland is in the middle between 2 entrances so I don't think it was designed for that purpose.

    I didn't say it was designed for that purpose, I don't really know if planners go to "roundabout" school or whatever but I would presume that they have some leeway when designing junctions and roundabouts and can adapt them to what they deem to be fit for purpose at the time. Whether that's what the rest of us think could be an entirely different scenario.

    dr.bollocko wrote: »
    Who cares. The lane serves a purpose in that it allows two exit lanes over the quincentennial and another entrance to lanes for those who wish to go further around the roundabout.

    ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑

    Exactly my point, maybe it's a new idea. As said I never gave it much thought because it worked for me, it's obvious the people that don't know how to drive around this roundabout start to question things about it and are looking for something other than themselves to blame. Not saying that's you by the way, I know you're just super interested in traffic :D


  • Options
    #43
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Instead of bluff and bluster (again) why not make an attempt to answer the question I posed regarding the lane that sprouts from the centre island?

    So far I can only presume that you haven't the foggiest idea.

    Instead of blaming everybody else for your own shortcomings provide some evidence or even try thinking - you might be able to find some logic.

    Otherwise please desist.

    I presume the 3rd lane you refer to is after the exit for Woodquay in order to break the traffic into 3 lanes for Headford Rd & Sean Mulvoy Road. The one where left is for Headford, right for Sean Mulvoy and centre for both? There's a good reason for that extra lane - there are 3 exits (QB, HR & SMR) that have 2 exits - so an extra lane is warranted for the part of the RAB that deals with these exits.

    As for similar junctions try this one, what is in effect a traffic light controlled RAB


  • Options
    #44
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    No, he's on about the lanes just after you come out of the Shopping centre, there is one that is marked out, it's just a case of one lane becoming two, it's a non issue though.


  • Options
    #45
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    dr.bollocko wrote: »
    Who cares. The lane serves a purpose in that it allows two exit lanes over the quincentennial and another entrance to lanes for those who wish to go further around the roundabout.


    The Sprouting Lane is just one odd feature of the Circus of Horrors, IMO. But sure who cares, it'll do. Hardly a good basis for roads engineering, I would say, but the It'll Do attitude is all-pervasive in this country. The Bodkin is a mess, IMO, the worst roundabout in a very bad lot, and it appears to have been designed by a bunch of people who were not unduly bothered about appearing to have got their engineering degrees out of lucky bags.




    dr.bollocko wrote: »
    I was at this roundabout at 5pm again today. Again it was mental. Backed up everywhere. The worst part is exiting from a point which is not controlled by a traffic light such as the tesco exit or coming from town.


    As you said yourself, who cares? Isn't that a fundamental part of the problem with Galway's traffic and transportation?

    And complaining isn't the same as caring, BTW.


  • Options
    #46
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    GekkePrutser wrote: »
    That's a completely different scenario. There that lane is clearly meant to be entered from the inside lane of the left/right entrances. The yellow lines end exactly at the path a driver would take in that situation. It's actually similar to the turbo roundabouts we see in Holland. They also have lanes sprouting from the middle, but they are only meant to be entered from the entrance, not by users already on the roundabout.

    In the case of turbo roundabouts it works very well because all the separating lines are elevated like a kerb, which enforces the lane to be used the proper way. If you try to enter it the wrong way you're thrown all over the place because you go over the bump :)

    The one at Terryland is in the middle between 2 entrances so I don't think it was designed for that purpose.




    Dutch turbo roundabouts can be quite elaborate structures, but so far I have not seen an image of one with a sprouting lane. I wouldn't claim that such doesn't exist, just that I am not aware of sprouting lanes being standard practice in turbo or ordinary roundabouts.


  • Options
    #47
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Instead of blaming everybody else for your own shortcomings provide some evidence or even try thinking - you might be able to find some logic.
    Otherwise please desist.


    Not for the first time, I have no idea of what you seem to think you're talking about.


    Head The Wall wrote: »
    it's just a case of one lane becoming two, it's a non issue though.


    If it's a non-issue, then why this:
    dr.bollocko wrote: »
    So many people leave their lane, go into this new lane, then roll back into the lane to exit going over the quincentennial right in front of me.
    Why do they do that?


    It may well be an odd feature that causes "many people to leave their lane". It looks odd to me, but I am prepared to accept that there may be a roads engineering precedent for it, in Ireland or elsewhere. Since Bodkin fans are defending both the Sprouting Lane and the roundabout itself, I thought they might be able to make an evidence-based case for its existence. Clearly not.


  • Options
    #48
    BESman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 563 ✭✭✭BESman


    I've witnessed more accidents on this roundabout than any other place on earth.

    I have a test for people to attempt. Try coming from the Woodquay or Bridge exits and get into the Galway Shopping Centre and act like you know what you're doing to get there. It's impossible.


  • Options
    #49
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    According to AGS 25% of collisions in Galway City occur on roundabouts.

    I'd be prepared to bet that a disproportionate number of those collisions occur on the Bodkin. But that's just a guess, as I have no detailed stats.


  • Options
    #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The Sprouting Lane is just one odd feature of the Circus of Horrors, IMO. But sure who cares, it'll do. Hardly a good basis for roads engineering, I would say, but the It'll Do attitude is all-pervasive in this country. The Bodkin is a mess, IMO, the worst roundabout in a very bad lot, and it appears to have been designed by a bunch of people who were not unduly bothered about appearing to have got their engineering degrees out of lucky bags.

    Jeasus would you ever stop f***ing complaining. You obviously have not got the ability to drive a car and appear to think no one else in Galway can, from the first time I drove that roundabout years ago I never had a single problem you would swear it was some sort of complex mathematical problem.

    The only issue with that roundabout (and its no different to any other roundabout) is people crossing from the middle lane into the left lane when coming onto the roundabout from the headford road side, but thats nothing to do with the design of the roundabout and everything to do with peoples inability to drive a car.


  • Options
    #51
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    If it's a non-issue, then why this:


    It may well be an odd feature that causes "many people to leave their lane". It looks odd to me, but I am prepared to accept that there may be a roads engineering precedent for it, in Ireland or elsewhere. Since Bodkin fans are defending both the Sprouting Lane and the roundabout itself, I thought they might be able to make an evidence-based case for its existence. Clearly not.

    The issue is not the roundabout its the drivers, bad drivers will decide not to stick to the correct lanes everywhere and not just on this rotary.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Arielle Mango Rip-off wrote: »
    Jeasus would you ever stop f***ing complaining. You obviously have not got the ability to drive a car and appear to think no one else in Galway can, from the first time I drove that roundabout years ago I never had a single problem you would swear it was some sort of complex mathematical problem.

    The only issue with that roundabout (and its no different to any other roundabout) is people crossing from the middle lane into the left lane when coming onto the roundabout from the headford road side, but thats nothing to do with the design of the roundabout and everything to do with peoples inability to drive a car.



    The complaint that prompted this particular line of enquiry (still unanswered by fans of the Bodkin) was this earlier post.

    It is self-evident that the Bodkin layout -- whether individual elements or the design as a whole -- is causing confusion.

    If the Bodkin is "no different from any other roundabout" can you point to other Bodkins nationally, internationally or in roads engineering manuals? That's all I'm asking.

    If the design is so common, so intuitive and so well established in roads engineering practice, and not "some sort of complex mathematical problem", you should be able to find at least one source. You may be an expert at driving around the Bodkin but clearly, so far, you are unable to point to any authoritative source that identifies Sprouting Lanes, for example, as good roads engineering practice.

    Personally I have no difficulty with the roundabout itself when driving (the obvious traffic chaos at certain times is a different matter) but I generally avoid it when cycling if I have an alternative route. For example, when doing a regular 12 km one-way cycle commute a while back, I went via Lough Atalia, principally because I hate the QB-style "cycle paths" with a passion and never use them.


  • Options
    #53
    ciotog
    Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭ciotog


    Arielle Mango Rip-off wrote: »
    Jeasus would you ever stop f***ing complaining. You obviously have not got the ability to drive a car and appear to think no one else in Galway can, from the first time I drove that roundabout years ago I never had a single problem you would swear it was some sort of complex mathematical problem.

    The only issue with that roundabout (and its no different to any other roundabout) is people crossing from the middle lane into the left lane when coming onto the roundabout from the headford road side, but thats nothing to do with the design of the roundabout and everything to do with peoples inability to drive a car.
    You seem to be disagreeing with him and then making his point for him. Perhaps clarify? The use of roundabouts by motorists in Galway is extremely poor; lack of lane discipline and signalling. You can stand at any roundabout around the city and see it for yourself. I don't necessarily agree with removing roundabouts - the cycling campaign suggested other options to make the roundabouts more accessible to non-motorised traffic but that's the option which has been chosen.


  • Options
    #54
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    ciotog wrote: »
    You seem to be disagreeing with him and then making his point for him. Perhaps clarify? The use of roundabouts by motorists in Galway is extremely poor; lack of lane discipline and signalling. You can stand at any roundabout around the city and see it for yourself. I don't necessarily agree with removing roundabouts - the cycling campaign suggested other options to make the roundabouts more accessible to non-motorised traffic but that's the option which has been chosen.

    What lanes?

    Most the the RABs in Galway don't have any lane markings, the only one I can think of that has markings is the subject of this discussion.

    SO instead of being able to follow something thats painted and easily visible, you have to take the seams in the tar as the lanes.

    Why is this an issue - they're too easy to miss/ignore.

    It's a bit rich to criticize something like lane disciline when the lanes themselves are ethereal.


  • Options
    #55
    ciotog
    Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭ciotog


    antoobrien wrote: »
    What lanes?

    Most the the RABs in Galway don't have any lane markings, the only one I can think of that has markings is the subject of this discussion.

    SO instead of being able to follow something thats painted and easily visible, you have to take the seams in the tar as the lanes.

    Why is this an issue - they're too easy to miss/ignore.

    It's a bit rich to criticize something like lane disciline when the lanes themselves are ethereal.
    I'm aware of lane markings on other roundabouts e.g. Font but they can be faint in places I will give you that. However, most of the other roundabouts are two lane so it's not difficult to take either the inside or outside lane as appropriate. We're not talking massive narrow multilane features here where maintaining lane position requires a tight line.


  • Options
    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    ciotog wrote: »
    You seem to be disagreeing with him and then making his point for him. Perhaps clarify? The use of roundabouts by motorists in Galway is extremely poor; lack of lane discipline and signalling. You can stand at any roundabout around the city and see it for yourself. I don't necessarily agree with removing roundabouts - the cycling campaign suggested other options to make the roundabouts more accessible to non-motorised traffic but that's the option which has been chosen.

    Well its only some drivers that do this so I was not saying every driver in Galway is unable to use roundabouts, its more laziness than anything a lot of the time too imo when people cross lanes.

    However this is nothing to do with roundabout design etc which is what is being blamed by some posters here, which is my point. Any driver worth his salt should have no problem using that particular roundabout in question from a design perspective.


  • Options
    #57
    ciotog
    Registered Users Posts: 670 ✭✭✭ciotog


    Arielle Mango Rip-off wrote: »
    Well its only some drivers that do this so I was not saying every driver in Galway is unable to use roundabouts, its more laziness than anything a lot of the time too imo when people cross lanes.

    However this is nothing to do with roundabout design etc which is what is being blamed by some posters here, which is my point. Any driver worth his salt should have no problem using the the particular roundabout in question from a design perspective.
    If the purpose of a roundabout is to be used by drivers, and the vast majority of licensed drivers are unable to, then I would argue the roundabout isn't fit for purpose. The conclusion of this thinking would then be that either roundabouts are unsuitable (false) or this roundabout i.e. the way it was designed is unsuitable - which I believe to be true.


  • Options
    #58
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    What lanes?

    Most the the RABs in Galway don't have any lane markings, the only one I can think of that has markings is the subject of this discussion.

    SO instead of being able to follow something thats painted and easily visible, you have to take the seams in the tar as the lanes.

    Why is this an issue - they're too easy to miss/ignore.

    It's a bit rich to criticize something like lane disciline when the lanes themselves are ethereal.



    Perhaps.


  • Options
    #59
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    ciotog wrote: »
    If the purpose of a roundabout is to be used by drivers, and the vast majority of licensed drivers are unable to, then I would argue the roundabout isn't fit for purpose. The conclusion of this thinking would then be that either roundabouts are unsuitable (false) or this roundabout i.e. the way it was designed is unsuitable - which I believe to be true.




    Are you suggesting roundabouts could be suitable then?

    Because I see little or no evidence anywhere in Ireland that roundabouts are suitable for active commuters.


  • Options
    #60
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    ciotog wrote: »
    If the purpose of a roundabout is to be used by drivers, and the vast majority of licensed drivers are unable to, then I would argue the roundabout isn't fit for purpose. The conclusion of this thinking would then be that either roundabouts are unsuitable (false) or this roundabout i.e. the way it was designed is unsuitable - which I believe to be true.

    I'll have to disagree with you here, to me it's the drivers that are not fit, driving standards are deplorable in this country and thats because of the crappy testing system we have in place. You are deemed not fit to pass your test and you can drive home afterwards :eek:

    Other roundabouts are obviously easier too navigate so simple minded people can usually figure it out and there is less to go wrong, the problem is when simple roundabouts don't suffice. I wouldn't be blaming the roundabout here, I would blame the driving, the fact that a lot of people can use this roundabout without crashing implies that the design in itself is okay.

    I also don't understand why Iwannahurl needs to see another example of this roundabout somewhere else, what is that going to do to get the people of Ireland drive better? Seeing it elsewhere is not going to be a justification for not understanding it.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Are you suggesting roundabouts could be suitable then?

    Because I see little or no evidence anywhere in Ireland that roundabouts are suitable for active commuters.

    That is the height of bull s**t. Roundabouts are the by far the best method for keeping traffic flow moving. Traffic light in the other hand are nothing but hassle.

    ciotog wrote: »
    If the purpose of a roundabout is to be used by drivers, and the vast majority of licensed drivers are unable to, then I would argue the roundabout isn't fit for purpose. The conclusion of this thinking would then be that either roundabouts are unsuitable (false) or this roundabout i.e. the way it was designed is unsuitable - which I believe to be true.

    But the vast majority of licensed drivers dont have a problem using that roundabout or any other. Thats a myth, which has become quite popular in this forum. Its a minority of drivers who cannot use roundabouts and thats a driver training issue not a design issue or a flaw with roundabouts in general.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement