Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

dvpower · 11-03-2012 3:25pm

Biggins wrote: »

...Which sadly is what FG wants, will use to their best ability and will get away with it too because the sheep of this country that still lend FG and Labour support, will allow it to happen in silence.

Doesn't your party support a property tax?

Irish Democratic Party wrote:

Broaden the tax base instead of increasing rates, and diversify with use of site value tax (see

Housing)

Require any property tax to be levied on owners, not occupiers (see Housing)

Galwayguy35 · 11-03-2012 3:25pm

Was coming home from work the other day and an advert on the radio came on reminding us to pay the Household Charge. What will they think of next? I hope people hold their nerve on this and dont give in.

dvpower · 11-03-2012 3:27pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Was coming home from work the other day and an advert on the radio came on reminding us to pay the Household Charge. What will they think of next?

That's crazy - a radio ad you say?

massey168 · 11-03-2012 3:31pm

LilyCullen wrote: »

My dad told me he paid it the other day, said he felt he had no choice and didn't want to go through the whole fine business.

We do have a choice, you can delay payment for 12 months, it costs an extra €42 to protest, but its well worth it to make the point. If everyone did that this corrupt tax would fail.

LilyCullen wrote: »

I think he felt pretty embarrassed about it. He lost his company because of the bust and he kind of explained to me that a lot of people he'd talked to just felt like they had no fight left in them.

That mentality is exactly how they are getting away with it, and exactly the reason 1000's Jews in camps in WWII pretended to believe the lies, and calmy walked into the gas chambers for a few dozen Nazi guards instead of dying fighting.

Personally until I breath my last breath I will never stop fighting and resisting the corrupt golden circle scum in this country.

Biggins · 11-03-2012 3:34pm

dvpower wrote: »

Doesn't your party support a property tax?

It does but as a site value tax. Not a standard charge upon the roof and people!
One that will be accountable by means adjustment and/or other more fairer methods.

There are those however that even in the IDP, are pushing for no so-called household tax at all, even as laid out and currently in use by our two traitorous parties.

I personally do NOT believe there should be a household tax placed upon the vast majority of the Irish people (at least - if not at all).
Therefore its up to me within the IDP to see that this comes about.

Galwayguy35 · 11-03-2012 3:36pm

dvpower wrote: »

That's crazy - a radio ad you say?

Yeah, it was on either 2fm or Today fm last week.

force eleven · 11-03-2012 3:46pm

Just envisage that you have a 100 euros in your hand,giving it to Enda, who gives it to Michael, who gives it to the Finance dept officials,who give it to a nameless bondholder, and he rides off onto the sunset.

That is what is happening with this. It goes beyond the ordinary income tax we (most of us anyway) pay. I can kid myself and believe that income tax at least, is going on everyday expenditure and goes towards the balancing of the books.

But these extra taxes. Unfair,unjust and wont work.

plasmaguy · 11-03-2012 4:20pm

Paid it already.

While it will probably be used to pay for the mistakes of FF developers, still, most countries in Europe pay a property tax, and I agree with that principle.

We paid low taxes for long enough and the country ended up in a mess probably because people had too much spare cash knocking around.

If you're big enough to own a house, you're big enough to pay a property tax.

massey168 · 11-03-2012 4:30pm

force eleven wrote: »

Just envisage that you have a 100 euros in your hand,giving it to Enda, who gives it to Michael, who gives it to the Finance dept officials,who give it to a nameless bondholder, and he rides off onto the sunset.

Exactly, and in turn these secret bondholders spend your €100 on a cocktail while sunbathing on a tax free cayman islands beach. "Cheers suckers" Clink Clink

Who are these secret bondholders ? why can they not be named ? For all we know Bertie and Seanie are directors of these bondholders companies. The whole thing is a corrupt scam.

massey168 · 11-03-2012 4:33pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

Paid it already.

While it will probably be used to pay for the mistakes of FF developers, still, most countries in Europe pay a property tax, and I agree with that principle.

We paid low taxes for long enough and the country ended up in a mess probably because people had too much spare cash knocking around.

If you're big enough to own a house, you're big enough to pay a property tax.

99% of people have no problem paying just taxes.
This is not a just tax, not a penny of it will be spent on public services, it is just a corrupt slush fund for the golden circle. You many enjoy funding corruption, but many of us have higher principles.

Biggins · 11-03-2012 5:29pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

If you're big enough to own a house, you're big enough to pay a property tax.

If your man (or woman) enough to work for 25/30 years and pay off what will probably be the biggest thing in your life, the roof over your head, you deserve at some stage to be able to sit back for all your decades of struggling and finally relax, knowing your duty is done and at least there will always be the comfort of said roof over your head!

...well until now!

plasmaguy · 11-03-2012 8:01pm

Biggins wrote: »

If your man (or woman) enough to work for 25/30 years and pay off what will probably be the biggest thing in your life, the roof over your head, you deserve at some stage to be able to sit back for all your decades of struggling and finally relax, knowing your duty is done and at least there will always be the comfort of said roof over your head!

...well until now!

We are facing an annual tax shortfall of roughly fifteen billion which has got nothing to do with corrupt developers and everything to do with Public Sector unions screwing the taxpayers for years with their benchmarking, big pensions and jobs for the boys and all that.

Yes of course paying back the debts of rogue bankers and developers is draining us. But leaving that aside, we still spend more than we take in, in tax revenues in this country by a long long way. The stamp duty income of the boom era has to be replaced with something else.

The last thing we need is to copy the Greeks and avoid paying taxes because that will show 'em (corrupt Greek golden circle).

There are two types of debts the Irish people owe, the debts of the property speculators, but also the annual deficit made up of a shortfall of daily taxes such as income and stamp duty tax. It's the second one that taxes like the property tax were brought in to address.

If people think that if they stop paying tax or one particular tax is going to make things better, they are sadly mistaken, it will just mean inevitably the government having to borrow more money to make up the shortfall, and then watch the national debt clock increase even faster.

If the people don't pay the property tax, the government will just simply borrow it anyways and have to pay it back with interest. So take your pick.

dvpower · 11-03-2012 8:13pm

Biggins wrote: »

If your man (or woman) enough to work for 25/30 years and pay off what will probably be the biggest thing in your life, the roof over your head, you deserve at some stage to be able to sit back for all your decades of struggling and finally relax, knowing your duty is done and at least there will always be the comfort of said roof over your head!

...well until now!

There is no suggestion at all that anyone igoing to lose the roof over their head. Why the scaremongering?

Biggins · 11-03-2012 8:36pm

dvpower wrote: »

There is no suggestion at all that anyone igoing to lose the roof over their head. Why the scaremongering?

Thats indeed an extreme case, but the fact is that if one manages (near impossible due to the inventive number of ways they have introduced to get the money out of you either at direct source such as wages or dole, etc) to escape paying, the fine will accumulate in a non-ending spiral?

...But the above is NOT the point I was making, it was and still/is that unlike others taxes, levies, charges (or whatever new name FG/Labour can think of regularly), its it this...

If one wants to avoids to avoid other taxes, licence charges, etc, one can sell the TV, dump the car, scrap the motorbike and on and on...
However the home that you or your parents have been working for most of their lives, to pay off, just cannot be dumped so easily!
...So the government has you really by the balls!

Like it or not, your going to owe money to the government more so till the day you die - think about that - even if that means you will never even for a minutes notice ever get to relax and say "well I will never owe money to anyone ever more".
You will never be able to say that more so just because you have the cheek to go buy your own home!

Your home, a one sacrosanct place where once you could go and try escape the pressures of the world and take shelter from them.
Now the government has come down on those four walls and roof and said "Tough mate - now cough up forever more! Don't like it? Fcuk you! Pay up!"

mikom · 11-03-2012 8:50pm

Biggins wrote: »

Like it or not, your going to owe money to the government more so till the day you die - think about that - even if that means you will never even for a minutes notice ever get to relax and say "well I will never owe money to anyone ever more".
You will never be able to say that more so just because you have the cheek to go buy your own home!

That's a good point.
Forever indebted to the government............. unless you live in a caravan.
Strike one for the unsettled travellers.

plasmaguy · 11-03-2012 8:50pm

Unfortunately since the end of the property boom and the loss of the massive stamp duty revenues, successive governments have to find ways to make up that shortfall, or else cut more spending, more public jobs, or alternatively borrow.

Raising income tax, and other taxes will not come near to it.

We all need to wake up to the fact there is a shortfall in day to day tax revenues since the loss of stamp duty, and we need to make up that short fall somehow.

I hate paying tax as much as the next person and know that most of my taxes go to pay the wages of idiots just like my licence fee pays the wages of idiot "stars" in RTE, but refusing to pay tax will solve nothing and make things worse for the country.

mikom · 11-03-2012 8:52pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

I hate paying tax as much as the next person and know that most of my taxes go to pay the wages of idiots just like my licence fee pays the wages of idiot "stars" in RTE, but refusing to pay tax will solve nothing and make things worse for the country.

So you will perpetuate it?

plasmaguy · 11-03-2012 8:57pm

mikom wrote: »

So you will perpetuate it?

Find me a person who likes paying any form of tax.

If income tax was voluntary, do you think anyone would pay it, or declare their real income?

You'd be viewed as a fool if you did, perpetuating a goldern circle blah blah blah would be the excuse of the majority, no question about it.

When the government made paying the property tax voluntary/up to the individual to decide when they would pay, they were asking for trouble.

mikom · 11-03-2012 8:58pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

If income tax was voluntary, do you think anyone would pay it, or declare their real income?

.

Lots of self employed do.

dvpower · 11-03-2012 9:01pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

When the government made paying the property tax voluntary/up to the individual to decide when they would pay, they were asking for trouble.

They didn't make it voluntary or up to individuals when they will pay.
It is mandatory - the deadline for payment is 31 March. Thereafter interest and penalties will apply.

MeerKat17 · 11-03-2012 9:01pm

I am renting, and therefore as far as I know not liable for the household charge, and my landlord is not resident in the country so I don't believe he has paid it yet. But the utility bills are in my name so if they intend to track people down by utility bills does that mean that they will come after me for it?

plasmaguy · 11-03-2012 9:03pm

mikom wrote: »

Lots of self employed do.

That's true, although possibly don't declare everything, as most of the defaulters caught by revenue are self employed who underdeclare.

Since there's probably 10 times the amount of PAYE payers as self employed, you'd be talking of 10 times the number of defaulters, and in a recession far more.

The ordinary Joe Soap hates paying tax and if they can find a reason to avoid paying it they will.

They will cite Dev's something or other, or go back to the Civil War and this that and the other and then say, that's the reason I won't pay. Everyone will find a reason.

Like I said, corrupt shower or not, we still have a day to day shortfall of tax, and someone's gotta pay it.

I'd rather it would be me than passing it on to the next generation via the national debt, which seems to be exactly what we are doing at the moment.

dvpower · 11-03-2012 9:04pm

MeerKat17 wrote: »

I am renting, and therefore as far as I know not liable for the household charge, and my landlord is not resident in the country so I don't believe he has paid it yet. But the utility bills are in my name so if they intend to track people down by utility bills does that mean that they will come after me for it?

No. They won't.
Utility bills was just one of many data sources they are talking about using.

plasmaguy · 11-03-2012 9:05pm

dvpower wrote: »

They didn't make it voluntary or up to individuals when they will pay.
It is mandatory - the deadline for payment is 31 March. Thereafter interest and penalties will apply.

Well I paid, so I have nothing to worry about. It's great to have that worry removed to be honest.

Merch · 11-03-2012 9:26pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Anyone interested can let the Government know their ideas about the property tax. One thing which has been decided already is that the NPPR will be abolished so anyone with more than one house will not have to pay any extra over and above the property tax on each of their properties.

http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/LocalGovernmentAdministration/LocalGovernmentFinance/Inter-DepartmentalGrouponPropertyTax/

Been reading through this thread, while there are differing opinions
I cannot see in that link where anything says the NPPR is being abolished? or anywhere else.

mikom · 11-03-2012 9:27pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

Well I paid, so I have nothing to worry about. It's great to have that worry removed to be honest.

* Awaits next budget multiplication*

the groutch · 11-03-2012 9:35pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

Well I paid, so I have nothing to worry about. It's great to have that worry removed to be honest.

you should be worried about the fact you've given them permission to take as much as they want off you in the following month's or years, it's the proverbial blank cheque.

Finneen · 11-03-2012 9:37pm

Yes, but only to piss off those lefty TDs!

massey168 · 11-03-2012 9:45pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

Well I paid, so I have nothing to worry about. It's great to have that worry removed to be honest.

If everyone took that cowardly lets bend over and collaborate with their corruption approach we'd all be paying €1000 a year next year to fund the golden circle's lifestyle. Perhaps you also have no money worries in paying at that level as well, but many people do.

tayto lover · 11-03-2012 9:47pm

Who else supplies electricity apart from the E.S.B. ?
Time to make contingency plans. If the E.S.B. give my details to Hogan and his cronies I will leave them and sign up with their competitor as should all the No camp. They will suffer the repercussions.

The_Thing · 11-03-2012 9:49pm

.....There is also a mass march on 31st March, the Fine Gael Árd Fheis is taking place on that Saturday the 31st of March in the Convention Centre, (NAMA Building) on the quays. Gather at the Garden of Remembrance at 1pm. It is time we got off our asses and took to the streets. The whole family should come. Buses are being arranged from around the country. Contact your local branch for details or check on Facebook. it’s time to take our country back.

^
Quoting from thejournal.ie article I linked to earlier for anyone who might be interested.

Personally speaking I'd love nothing more than to see the Irish Army shell the convention center with high explosive rounds when all the blue-shirts are inside.

Slick50 · 11-03-2012 9:51pm

plasmaguy wrote: »

Raising income tax, and other taxes will not come near to it.

We all need to wake up to the fact there is a shortfall in day to day tax revenues since the loss of stamp duty, and we need to make up that short fall somehow.

The tax will be coming from the same "pot" of cash anyway, so this statement makes no sense.

There is no need to levy this tax on the familiy home, other than to intimidate people into paying it. And a lack of imagination.

It is a morally wrong, unjust tax.

Lister1 · 11-03-2012 9:58pm

Strange them going after utility companies to identify people who haven't paid. I would have assumed they would use geodirectory and address the communication 'to the owner' as I don't believe there would be any data protection issues in play if they were to do this....

http://www.geodirectory.ie/About-GeoDirectory.aspx

rasper · 11-03-2012 10:03pm

Definitely the best way to turn off any prospective buyers off. , a lot easier to go on housing list or rent

squod · 11-03-2012 10:07pm

Lister1 wrote: »

Strange them going after utility companies to identify people who haven't paid. I would have assumed they would use geodirectory and address the communication 'to the owner' as I don't believe there would be any data protection issues in play if they were to do this....

http://www.geodirectory.ie/About-GeoDirectory.aspx

Why would they do that? They just want to load the average tax payer, not the rich!

Many rich folk put their finances through companies for accounting/tax reasons. Even someone with a modest portfolio has a good chance of avoiding this tax IMO.

RandomName2 · 11-03-2012 10:11pm

FOR THOSE ON THIS THREAD REPEATEDLY SAYING HOW €100 IS SUCH A TINY SUM:

Note the following (from MoneyGuide):

The temporary Household Charge of €100 per property came into force in Ireland from January 2012 – but this is only in place until a full Irish Property Tax system is set up

The Government has now established a “Property Tax Epert group ” to recommend an appropriate system of property tax.

The amounts of Property Tax suggested in the Commission on Taxation's report were as follows
Valued Under €150,000 – Tax Amount in the range €188 to €225 a year

Valued between €150k to €300k – Property Tax between€563 and €675 a year

Valued between €300k and €450k – Property Tax between €938 and €1125 a year

Valued between €450k and €600k – Property Tax between €1313 and €1575 a year

Valued between €600k and €750k – Property Tax between €1688 and €2025 a year

Valued between €750k and €1m – Property Tax between €2188 and €2625 a year

Valued between €1m and €1.5m – Property Tax between €3125 and €3750 a year

Valued Over €1.5m – tax based on between 0.25% and 0.3% of the value.

Ogham · 11-03-2012 10:11pm

tayto lover wrote: »

Who else supplies electricity apart from the E.S.B. ?
Time to make contingency plans. If the E.S.B. give my details to Hogan and his cronies I will leave them and sign up with their competitor as should all the No camp. They will suffer the repercussions.

ESB - is split into 2 parts. The supply part we deal with directly and pay our bills to . The other part of ESB has all the data on the property location (MPRN numbers) - (even if you are with Airtricity). This is where they will be gatting info on properties. I don't think they will be getting info on bill payers names.
(I could be wrong )

gerryo777 · 11-03-2012 10:14pm

First time back on this thread for a few weeks and glad to see dvpower is still here, same comments but to a different group of posters!

So now big Phil is going to find out where we live, so f***ing what, I still won't be paying but at least he will know where to send the fine.

It's just more scare mongering from Phil & co, trying to frighten people into paying, even saying that local authority's might not have enough money to fund their fire service's, what a crock of ****e.

But it won't work, people aren't stupid, they know that this money is going to central funds and will be squandered by him and his mates.

Still around the 10% mark with 2 weeks to go before the fines kick in?, can't see 1.4 million people registering before the end of the month!!

Keep it up folks, DON'T REGISTER / DONT PAY.

Arnold Layne · 11-03-2012 10:16pm

Slick50 wrote: »

plasmaguy wrote: »

Raising income tax, and other taxes will not come near to it.

We all need to wake up to the fact there is a shortfall in day to day tax revenues since the loss of stamp duty, and we need to make up that short fall somehow.

The tax will be coming from the same "pot" of cash anyway, so this statement makes no sense.

There is no need to levy this tax on the familiy home, other than to intimidate people into paying it. And a lack of imagination.

It is a morally wrong, unjust tax.

The problem is that this is not a tax on the family home our another route of residence. If out was then all households would pay irrespective of whether the residents owned the property or not.

The owners of houses on the Ras scheme are exempt which protects the politicians who own many of these houses from paying this.

gerryo777 · 11-03-2012 10:18pm

Arnold Layne wrote: »

Slick50 wrote: »

The owners of houses on the Ras scheme are exempt which protects the politicians who own many of these houses from paying this.

The owners of houses on RAS schemes are not exempt from this tax.

bop1977 · 11-03-2012 10:22pm

Right let's break this 160 million euro tax take goal down:

1.6 million houses
minus all the exempt council houses
minus all the ghost estate/ unfinished housing estates
minus those who won't register

When you take all these houses out say for arguments sake you are left with 500,000 houses from which they still need to raise 160 million this year and next year and the year after and soon you can clearly see the need for the 500,000 suckers to increase their contributions to completely unsustainable levels.

this is a bullsh1t tax and i for one wont be paying it.

galwayrush · 11-03-2012 10:25pm

My house is not finished yet, so i can't get a completion cert, so i won't be paying this stealth tax to keep the so called elite in this country bailed out.

MaxyJazz · 11-03-2012 10:28pm

Was just talking to my neighbours and none are going to pay...

Biggins · 11-03-2012 10:59pm

galwayrush wrote: »

My house is not finished yet, so i can't get a completion cert, so i won't be paying this stealth tax to keep the so called elite in this country bailed out.

Take your time finishing it!

galwayrush · 11-03-2012 11:02pm

Biggins wrote: »

Take your time finishing it!

I'll be too broke to finish it for a long time....;)

jojo86 · 11-03-2012 11:24pm

Luckily I don't own a house so this tax does not effect me. However, I think it's disgusting that I grew up watching my parents struggle to pay a mortgage on their small home so that their children could have a roof over their head, my family felt no reward from the supposed "boom"-no holidays, no fancy clothes, you were happy with having food in your stomach and a roof over your head. And they worked every day and night of their lives, and raised us, put us through college. Did their best and as far as I am concerned deserve a break.
Now am I expected to sit back and accept that it's ok that after years of struggling to get to a position where my parents can own their home now they have to pay 100 quid to bail out the scum that blew it all??!!
No way is this just, if the tax covered car tax,bins etc like in other countries maybe... but the way it is here no. I pay tax for a car to drive on crap roads I then pay to fail an NCT due to these crappy roads ruining suspension etc, I've been on a hospital waiting list for 2years for a condition. What they hell are we getting in return to handing out our tax money??! Sweet f all.
And all the suits who got us in this position are as rich as they ever were, they have plenty they never go without. Its a joke, screw the tax, screw the fat cats. I am disgusted at what this country has become. I hope enough people have the courage to stand together against this. And screw all those who turn their nose up at those who say they can't afford it, pretentious is what you are. And I know that those who judge people who argue against paying it are probably driving nice new cars, in nice big houses and lived it up in the supposed "good times".
And now they are suggesting using Esb and other utility bills to get people's information...Surely this is a breach of some form of privacy law?!

celticcrash · 12-03-2012 12:40am

dvpower wrote: »

That figure was for people who paid at council offices and doesn't take into account people who paid online.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local/less-than-2-of-limerick-householders-have-paid-controversial-household-charge-1-3605302#

Sorry to burst you bubble.

No need to be sorry, you didn't burst my bubble.
He said a few more paid by credit card and internet.
Please dont tell me that its gone up to
2%

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

plasmaguy · 12-03-2012 1:57am

mikom wrote: »

* Awaits next budget multiplication*

Yeh, lets all stop paying tax, just like the Greeks. That'll show those IMF people. We don't want their money or their help, or else we only want free money from them, no conditions.

This property tax is a condition of the IMF by the way. Bring in a property tax and they release more money to save our sorry asses.

I wish we had a choice in this, but we don't.

The IMF owns Ireland now, where have you been the last 2 years? Our government, democratically elected they may have been, are just IMF puppets. That's the reality of the situation.

And the IMF really don't give a toss what most Irish people think or not. The Property tax is either brought in fully, or they leave and take their money/lifeline with them.

These are simply facts, which really posters on here aren't going to alter.

plasmaguy · 12-03-2012 2:04am

massey168 wrote: »

If everyone took that cowardly lets bend over and collaborate with their corruption approach we'd all be paying €1000 a year next year to fund the golden circle's lifestyle. Perhaps you also have no money worries in paying at that level as well, but many people do.

So you are not going to pay the tax then? Fine with me.

Don't come crying on here when they put all those fines and penalties on you.

My guess is eventually people like you will pay.

But I hope they fine the bejaysus out of you, just to teach you a lesson.

Facts which people like you need reminding are:

1. Practically every country in Europe, well normal country that isn't bankrupt, have property taxes. It's an accepted norm in every normal country (except the wild west that is Ireland).

2. Without the stamp duty revenues, we have a massive shortfall in day to day taxes.

3. Pay less tax, and the governent need to borrow more, even economic illiterates should be able to get that.

4. The property tax was one of the conditions of the IMF bailout. It's not really up for negotiation. They give us money up front and we pay it back longterm. We don't do the property tax right and refuse to pay it, they will refuse to give us the money we need for day to day spending.

eviltwin · 12-03-2012 2:07am

I'm not paying.

I am not the kind of person who is a "rebel" by nature but like a lot of people I am just keeping my head above water right now. I do understand we all have to pull together to get the country out of the hole its in and that I have a responsibility to play a part in that but as a parent I also have a responsibility to my kids and right now I cannot see a way I can pay this money without them having to go without.

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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