Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

alastair · 17-03-2012 9:01pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

Sure why would anyone have a problem with that? Road tax going to - shock - roads, etc? But I'm sure even YOU will agree that this is not the case - no matter how you dress it up.

There's no such thing here as road tax.

alastair · 17-03-2012 9:05pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

And - as has pointed to to you ad nauseum - this tax has been introduced because of the bailing out of failed business entities who owe each other a private debt. This has fcuk all to do with equity or the rest of Europe.

It's to do with an ongoing shortfall in tax revenues - bank bailout or no bank bailout. That the rest of the world generally see the benefits of property taxes is a pretty clear indication that it has some merit.

alastair · 17-03-2012 9:08pm

Buford Tannen wrote: »

So what is you're vested intrest in this charge?A quick look through you're history shows that you are on her her every day morning,noon and night.

Gosh - another conspiracy! Enda's agents are everywhere!

Have you considered the possibility that some of us just see the need to sort out the revenue income gap, and the logic of a property tax as part of a sustainable new model?

Am Chile · 17-03-2012 9:18pm

dvpower wrote: »

I've had a look online and I don't know what u-turn on the household charge issue you're referring to.
Can you share please?

When can I expect the household charge to be formally abandoned?

A number of councils around the country have passed motions calling on the goverment to abolish the household tax, more recently in tramore, even a fine gael counciler had the following to say.

Cllr Anne Marie Power said she is also against the charge, describing it as “rushed and ill conceived”. She said she didn’t believe the public would accept it as it is unfair and added, “The promise of money going into the community is nonsense, it will go to the proverbial black hole to pay the bond holders and the ministers

http://www.waterford-news.ie/news/mhgbidsnmh/

gurramok · 17-03-2012 9:26pm

alastair wrote: »

Gosh - another conspiracy! Enda's agents are everywhere!

Have you considered the possibility that some of us just see the need to sort out the revenue income gap, and the logic of a property tax as part of a sustainable new model?

The no posters do have a habit of checking the history behind yes posters. Maybe paranoia, I do not know.

dvpower · 17-03-2012 9:39pm

gurramok wrote: »

The no posters do have a habit of checking the history behind yes posters. Maybe paranoia, I do not know.

Hoping to find a 'I was at the Ard Fheis and Enda said to me...' anecdote.

greenpilot · 17-03-2012 9:43pm

Hi Folks,

Here is some interesting reading for those of you with the spinetostand up to this charge. For those of you who have nothing better to do except spend all your waking hours on this thread supporting this tax....dont bother..... go buy a paper and check out the small ads....we in the real world, ie Rural Ireland, wont be paying...or indeed, paying attention!...85% OF PEOPLE LEFT TO PAY.....Stand your ground people.
http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/household-charge/

gurramok · 17-03-2012 9:52pm

greenpilot wrote: »

Hi Folks,

Here is some interesting reading for those of you with the spinetostand up to this charge. For those of you who have nothing better to do except spend all your waking hours on this thread supporting this tax....dont bother..... go buy a paper and check out the small ads....we in the real world, ie Rural Ireland, wont be paying...or indeed, paying attention!...85% OF PEOPLE LEFT TO PAY.....Stand your ground people.
http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/household-charge/

Funny how the interviewer kept showing repeated views of the not paying interviewees. A bit biased there.

mikom · 17-03-2012 9:54pm

gurramok wrote: »

Funny how the interviewer kept showing repeated views of the not paying interviewees.

gurramok wrote: »

Maybe paranoia, I do not know.

lol.

gurramok · 17-03-2012 10:02pm

mikom wrote: »

lol.

Nope, real stuff.

Ghandee · 17-03-2012 10:05pm

dvpower wrote: »

None of this is required. They fine a selection of people - €2500 plus outstanding tax, plus interest, plus late payment fees, plus costs.
Others fall into line.

And lets just say for arguments sake......

This batch of 'selected people' who've all stood together thus far, refused to register, refused to pay.

Ok, so they find themselves in court, judge fines them, and they refuse to pay?

What then for the court?

Herd them up like the Nazis did with the Jews, and imprison them?

Likewise with the next batch of non conformers, and the batch after that, and the batch after that?

I don't think you blue shirts are in the real world, you really haven't grasped the publics determination on this one at all, at all!

dvpower · 17-03-2012 10:13pm

Ghandee wrote: »

And lets just say for arguments sake......

This batch of 'selected people' who've all stood together thus far, refused to register, refused to pay.

Ok, so they find themselves in court, judge fines them, and they refuse to pay?

What then for the court?

Herd them up like the Nazis did with the Jews, and imprison them?

Likewise with the next batch of non conformers, and the batch after that, and the batch after that?

I don't think you blue shirts are in the real world, you really haven't grasped the publics determination on this one at all, at all!

Yes. It'll be just like the Nazis and the Jews all over again.:rolleyes:

Is there something wrong with you?

Ghandee · 17-03-2012 10:13pm

gurramok wrote: »

Funny how the interviewer kept showing repeated views of the not paying interviewees. A bit biased there.

I wouldn't consider it that funny tbh.

I've yet to speak to anyone that's said they're paying it either.

There is 85% non compliance after all......:cool:

mikom · 17-03-2012 10:13pm

Ghandee wrote: »

And lets just say for arguments sake......

This batch of 'selected people' who've all stood together thus far, refused to register, refused to pay.

Ok, so they find themselves in court, judge fines them, and they refuse to pay?

What then for the court?

Herd them up like the Nazis did with the Jews, and imprison them?

Yep, gonna get them to don striped PJ's with a five pointed star on it to represent Endas five point plan.

gurramok wrote: »

Nope, real stuff.

The current figures disagree.
14 days to go.

Frank Black · 17-03-2012 10:15pm

Freddie59 wrote: »

And - as has pointed to to you ad nauseum - this tax has been introduced because of the bailing out of failed business entities who owe each other a private debt. This has fcuk all to do with equity or the rest of Europe.

Nothing to do with the budget deficit then?

Ghandee · 17-03-2012 10:16pm

dvpower wrote: »

Yes. It'll be just like the Nazis and the Jews all over again.:rolleyes:

Is there something wrong with you?

Can you just answer the basic question?

What if the select few that get fined refuse to pay said fine?

Then the next batch in front of the court, the batch after that, and the batch after that?

None pay the fine imposed on them by the court?

Then what?

Answer the question dv, stop side stepping.

paddy147 · 17-03-2012 10:19pm

dvpower wrote: »

Yes. It'll be just like the Nazis and the Jews all over again.:rolleyes:

Is there something wrong with you?

So then.....have you gone off and googled Ministers Quinn and Hogan and their embarrasing climb downs and u-turns??

Or are you purposely ignoring the issue of people power,public anger and the subsiquesnt FG/Labour climb downs and u-turns so far??

Or are you just an Enda fan whos in complete denial??

gurramok · 17-03-2012 10:21pm

mikom wrote: »

The current figures disagree.
14 days to go.

So far. Jumping the gun there Mr Comedian.

Ghandee · 17-03-2012 10:25pm

gurramok wrote: »

So far. Jumping the gun there Mr Comedian.

You think more than half a million people will pay in fourteen days.....
(which will still only be 50%<)

Lol

I'm gonna open a beer.........

gurramok · 17-03-2012 10:30pm

Ghandee wrote: »

You think more than half a million people will pay in fourteen days.....
(which will still only be 50%<)

Lol

I'm gonna open a beer.........

Enjoy the beer.

If they don't, do you prefer a hike in income tax?

Bruthal · 17-03-2012 10:33pm

gurramok wrote: »

Enjoy the beer.

If they don't, do you prefer a hike in income tax?

Its coming from peoples income anyway, to pay the new tax.

Ghandee · 17-03-2012 10:37pm

gurramok wrote: »

Enjoy the beer.

I will thanks, i'm drinking Tyskie, great Polish beer (5.6%) I highly recommend it....

gurramok wrote: »

If they don't, do you prefer a hike in income tax?

income tax will target all people who use all public services, even the ones in council houses who earn a wage, and people in rented accommodation.

I still don't believe this money will go to public services btw, but you asked me a question and I've answered.

alastair · 17-03-2012 10:47pm

Ghandee wrote: »

Can you just answer the basic question?

What if the select few that get fined refuse to pay said fine?

Then the next batch in front of the court, the batch after that, and the batch after that?

None pay the fine imposed on them by the court?

Then what?

Answer the question dv, stop side stepping.

The process of prosecuting and fining tax defaulters would be pretty much the same as for any other tax. No need for anything dramatic. If you honestly believe that there will be a mass campaign of people opting to go off to the clinker rather than pay their taxes, then you'd be mistaken.

alastair · 17-03-2012 10:53pm

Ghandee wrote: »

income tax will target all people who use all public services, even the ones in council houses who earn a wage, and people in rented accommodation.

I still don't believe this money will go to public services btw, but you asked me a question and I've answered.

Increasing income taxes would undermine any chance of a recovery on the jobs market, and shift money into the black economy. A property tax has the benefit of targeting those with equity, and of offering limited scope for evasion. The revenues would go into the same pot that provides for loan repayments, bank bailouts, and the usual gamut of public services - its just another tax.

dvpower · 17-03-2012 10:55pm

Ghandee wrote: »

Can you just answer the basic question?

What if the select few that get fined refuse to pay said fine?

Then the next batch in front of the court, the batch after that, and the batch after that?

None pay the fine imposed on them by the court?

Then what?

Answer the question dv, stop side stepping.

I don't envisage widespread hardcore resistance so I can only speculate.

If there did happen to be this type of scenario and the courts were in danger of being clogged up, I think the Government might consider legislation to pass collection of this to the Revenue Commissioners, with the powers that the Revenue have. This could open the possibility of using attachment orders, where the money would simply be taken out of your bank account or taken directly from your salary. The Revenue currently have the power to make an attachment order on the authorisation of a Principal Officer in the Collector General's office, without any court order. Its quite an inexpensive process.

There would be plenty of options - this is just one.

Ghandee · 17-03-2012 11:00pm

alastair wrote: »

Increasing income taxes would undermine any chance of a recovery on the jobs market, and shift money into the black economy. A property tax has the benefit of targeting those with equity, and of offering limited scope for evasion. The revenues would go into the same pot that provides for loan repayments, bank bailouts, and the usual gamut of public services - its just another tax.

What if the equity targeted is negative equity?

Will the govt start to send those people money, or still target them in an effort to pay up?

Ghandee · 17-03-2012 11:03pm

dvpower wrote: »

I don't envisage widespread hardcore resistance so I can only speculate.

If there did happen to be this type of scenario and the courts were in danger of being clogged up, I think the Government might consider legislation to pass collection of this to the Revenue Commissioners, with the powers that the Revenue have. This could open the possibility of using attachment orders, where the money would simply be taken out of your bank account or taken directly from your salary. The Revenue currently have the power to make an attachment order on the authorisation of a Principal Officer in the Collector General's office, without any court order. Its quite an inexpensive process.

There would be plenty of options - this is just one.

Well......

If they go down that route, i'm untouchable!

gurramok · 17-03-2012 11:06pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

Its coming from peoples income anyway, to pay the new tax.

Eh, how? Though your main argument was that it was a flat charge?

Ghandee wrote: »

I will thanks, i'm drinking Tyskie, great Polish beer (5.6%) I highly recommend it....

Indeed, i want you typing correctly after a few later

Ghandee wrote: »

income tax will target all people who use all public services, even the ones in council houses who earn a wage, and people in rented accommodation.

I still don't believe this money will go to public services btw, but you asked me a question and I've answered.

Ok, I see your position. You distrust their declaration that the money will go to council services.

zumi · 17-03-2012 11:09pm

dvpower wrote: »

I don't envisage widespread hardcore resistance so I can only speculate.

If there did happen to be this type of scenario and the courts were in danger of being clogged up, I think the Government might consider legislation to pass collection of this to the Revenue Commissioners, with the powers that the Revenue have. This could open the possibility of using attachment orders, where the money would simply be taken out of your bank account or taken directly from your salary. The Revenue currently have the power to make an attachment order on the authorisation of a Principal Officer in the Collector General's office, without any court order. Its quite an inexpensive process.

There would be plenty of options - this is just one.

They can pass all the legislation and laws they like, I will never pay house tax. They can put all the attachment orders they like and send every sherriff in the country. I'll gladly go to jail, and there will be plenty more like me. I pay plenty of tax as it is and the last thing the Government needs is more money to waste.

The_Thing · 17-03-2012 11:10pm

mikom wrote: »

Yep, gonna get them to don striped PJ's with a five pointed star on it to represent Endas five point plan.

dvpower · 17-03-2012 11:14pm

zumi wrote: »

They can pass all the legislation and laws they like, I will never pay house tax. They can put all the attachment orders they like and send every sherriff in the country. I'll gladly go to jail, and there will be plenty more like me. I pay plenty of tax as it is and the last thing the Government needs is more money to waste.

I don't think you get it. An attachment order can involve a sheriff seizing goods, but it can also mean the money simply being transferred from your bank account or your employer taking it directly from your wages.

There is no need for a sheriff and no jail. That's the beauty of it.

alastair · 17-03-2012 11:14pm

zumi wrote: »

They can pass all the legislation and laws they like, I will never pay house tax. They can put all the attachment orders they like and send every sherriff in the country. I'll gladly go to jail, and there will be plenty more like me. I pay plenty of tax as it is and the last thing the Government needs is more money to waste.

I'm betting you'll pay up well before the prospect of jail time - forum heroics notwithstanding.

paddy147 · 17-03-2012 11:16pm

dvpower wrote: »

I don't think you get it. An attachment order can involve a sheriff seizing goods, but it can also mean the money simply being transferred from your bank account or your employer taking it directly from your wages.

There is no need for a sheriff and no jail. That's the beauty of it.

So have you googled yet??

I dont think you get it...as you still havent answered me on FG/Labour climb down and u-turns when faced with people power and mass public anger.

And it looks like you wont admit it either.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Endas arse must smell and taste nice,does it?

PS-Do you know anything about a persons constitunional rights and their European rights too??

Because you are talking absolute shyte in most of your avoiding meandering waffling posts

You would do well on the FG front bench so.

galwayrush · 17-03-2012 11:18pm

alastair wrote: »

I'm betting you'll pay up well before the prospect of jail time - forum heroics notwithstanding.

How many people will be facing jail time?
Amazing cost to the state / tax payers if they were to jail even 5 % of defaulters.

Bruthal · 17-03-2012 11:22pm

gurramok wrote: »

Eh, how? Though your main argument was that it was a flat charge?

Well unless the money comes out of the equity filled bricks alastair mentions, presumably it will be peoples income that pays it.

alastair · 17-03-2012 11:25pm

galwayrush wrote: »

How many people will be facing jail time?
Amazing cost to the state / tax payers if they were to jail even 5 % of defaulters.

It isn't going to happen - no need in the majority of cases, and there's sod all evidence of any number of defaulters in any case. What makes you think there's any significant number of people prepared to ignore a summons? 5% of what?

zumi · 17-03-2012 11:29pm

alastair wrote: »

I'm betting you'll pay up well before the prospect of jail time - forum heroics notwithstanding.

Fair enough, I'll take that bet....

alastair · 17-03-2012 11:30pm

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well unless the money comes out of the equity filled bricks alastair mentions, presumably it will be peoples income that pays it.

All taxes come out of income in the final analysis - this one would be no different - it does have the advantage of not promoting a shift of revenue into the black economy, and of offering little scope of evasion.

alastair · 17-03-2012 11:31pm

zumi wrote: »

Fair enough, I'll take that bet....

Forum posturing - how unexpected!

dxhound2005 · 17-03-2012 11:33pm

galwayrush wrote: »

How many people will be facing jail time?
Amazing cost to the state / tax payers if they were to jail even 5 % of defaulters.

I doubt anyone will go to jail. Very few on the Revenue Commissioners defaulters lists go to jail, they just finish up paying interest and penalties often much more than the orginal tax.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/2012/pr-130312-defaulters-list.html

The Revenue Commissioners will probably go after people who owe this new tax as they are given a role in it by the legislation. They like doing revenue audits.

local authority shall, at such intervals as the Revenue
Commissioners may specify, provide the Revenue Commissioners
with such information obtained by the local
authority pursuant to this Act, including tax reference
numbers, as the Revenue Commissioners may reasonably
require for the purpose of enabling them to perform their
functions under a specified enactment.

Ghost Buster · 17-03-2012 11:35pm

Hey. Did a bit of research. Longford, where i live has a town mayor, county mayor and Granard, a 1 street glorified village has a mayor. All 3 offices have 'offices', secretaries and all the accompanying expenses, perks etc. Then you read about the head cook in BOI receiving 800 000 odd despite there being a cap on such salaries of 500 000.
Explain again why any local or national authority need me to pay on the double for services????

Going Forward · 17-03-2012 11:48pm

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Hey. Did a bit of research. Longford, where i live has a town mayor, county mayor and Granard, a 1 street glorified village has a mayor. All 3 offices have 'offices', secretaries and all the accompanying expenses, perks etc. Then you read about the head cook in BOI receiving 800 000 odd despite there being a cap on such salaries of 500 000.
Explain again why any local or national authority need me to pay on the double for services????

Those figures are just absurd!
And what about the amazing administrative doubling up of Tipperary north and south?

Public money, however collected is very easily spent............

Also a lot of talk about this tax going to provide local services, I already pay for mine, bin collection, motor tax and medical fees.

Free education is a misnomer too.

And I do not want to pay for the excesses mentioned above.

Going Forward · 17-03-2012 11:52pm

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I doubt anyone will go to jail. Very few on the Revenue Commissioners defaulters lists go to jail, they just finish up paying interest and penalties often much more than the orginal tax.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/press/2012/pr-130312-defaulters-list.html

The Revenue Commissioners will probably go after people who owe this new tax as they are given a role in it by the legislation. They like doing revenue audits.

local authority shall, at such intervals as the Revenue
Commissioners may specify, provide the Revenue Commissioners
with such information obtained by the local
authority pursuant to this Act, including tax reference
numbers, as the Revenue Commissioners may reasonably
require for the purpose of enabling them to perform their
functions under a specified enactment.

This is going to be a major deciding factor in whether to pay or not for those in business in any capacity, from a self employed electrician who needs a tax clearance cert to a corner shop owner.

Ghost Buster · 17-03-2012 11:58pm

Going Forward wrote: »

Those figures are just absurd!
And what about the amazing administrative doubling up of Tipperary north and south?

Public money, however collected is very easily spent............

Also a lot of talk about this tax going to provide local services, I already pay for mine, bin collection, motor tax and medical fees.

Free education is a misnomer too.

And I do not want to pay for the excesses mentioned above.

This is a major issue with me just now. My place of work has had a funding cut and may not last the year. The funding cut is slightly lower than the phone expenses paid to the county mayor for 2010. This is an employer of 8 and quite unique to the town and it may close for the equivalent of a councillors phone bill... and they want me to volunteer 100 euro. f.uck that

The_Thing · 18-03-2012 12:18am

Going Forward wrote: »

Also a lot of talk about this tax going to provide local services, I already pay for mine, bin collection, motor tax and medical fees.

Lies from the blue-shirted bastards, pure and simple.

The money that would normally have been allocated to local authorities is being used to pay off bond holders and they want us to facilitate this by introducing a property tax.

How those fcukers have the nerve to show their face in public after all the pre-election promises they made is beyond me.

Here's one of the liars in action last year:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LTCT7QIeP8

Going Forward · 18-03-2012 12:19am

Ghost Buster wrote: »

This is a major issue with me just now. My place of work has had a funding cut and may not last the year. The funding cut is slightly lower than the phone expenses paid to the county mayor for 2010. This is an employer of 8 and quite unique to the town and it may close for the equivalent of a councillors phone bill... and they want me to volunteer 100 euro. f.uck that

I would love to see the TOTAL accrued expenses (from ink to mileage, to dry cleaning, to make-up, coffee machines etc. etc.) from every county councillor, up to the taoiseach and ALL of those in between in one single figure.

Slick50 · 18-03-2012 1:01am

dvpower wrote: »

The Revenue currently have the power to make an attachment order on the authorisation of a Principal Officer in the Collector General's office, without any court order. Its quite an inexpensive process..

Do you have a link for this one?

Because you seem to be contradicting yourself again.

dvpower wrote: »

Fines, interest and penalties. They've also said that they will be seeking legal costs for any court cases.

Besides, I thought we had seperation between the government and our judicial system in the country.

mikom · 18-03-2012 1:03am

The_Thing wrote: »

Lies from the blue-shirted bastards, pure and simple.

The money that would normally have been allocated to local authorities is being used to pay off bond holders and they want us to facilitate this by introducing a property tax.

How those fcukers have the nerve to show their face in public after all the pre-election promises they made is beyond me.

Gonna be great craic at the Fine Gael Ard Fheis
They will need a five point plan to even get into the conference......

There will also be a mass picket at the Fine Gael Ard Fheis in the Dublin Convention Centre on March 31st, more details to follow.

http://nohouseholdtax.org/national-assembly-march-24th/

Slick50 · 18-03-2012 1:07am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I give the local authorities great credit for the water infrastructure in Dundalk. From a situation where 100 year old installations meant water rationing every summer in the 1970's to what we have now. People turn on their taps and get unlimited free water without even thinking about it. And the waste water treatment facilities were upgraded also as you know.

Where did the finances come from for this great work, it didn't happen over night, it has already been paid for. Without this new tax that "we need for local services".

Bruthal · 18-03-2012 1:08am

mikom wrote: »

Gonna be great craic at the Fine Gael Ard Fheis
They will need a five point plan to even get into the conference......

Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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