orange provocation

Noreen1 wrote: »

I don't think BOTB was about religious freedom, either, but, the truth is, history tells you and I one story - and it's not the story that many Protestants believe.

Look up the sermon given at the Donegal parade, by Reverend Gamble (I think!).
I found it quite amazing - because it's not at all the way Irish, Catholic Nationalists see it.

Now, before you take my head off - I'm not saying I agree with him. I don't.
But, both he, and his audience, clearly do believe it.
It's like some Unionists think flying the Red Hand is some kind of sign of Unionist supremacy. Actually, the Red Hand was originally the flag of the O'Neill clan.

I suppose what I'm saying is that much of the truth of history is not always known, and each "side" tends not to tell any truths that don't make their own case look good.

The question is: Will the truth be known and accepted by each side respecting the others rights - or will it be known if we keep up a tit for tat running battle?
I think if we keep up the tit for tat, it will only add to the "victim":rolleyes: mentality of some Northern Unionists. If we don't - but insist on a respectful parade - then we both prove ourselves to be mature, reasonable people - and we give the lie to the rubbish that is spouted about discrimination against Protestants in Ireland.

Sorry maybe i haventh made myself clear becauce this thread is about the OO, i believe each person/s has the right to celebrate and believe in whatever they want and to respect that right once it does not cause hurt to those around, my problem is with the OO and notably their discrimination against catholics from joining their organisation and for the bigotry some hold dear and carry out without punishment.

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

So is Horst Wessel Lied.

Agreed! A lovely upbeat tune.

billybudd wrote: »

Sorry maybe i haventh made myself clear becauce this thread is about the OO, i believe each person/s has the right to celebrate and believe in whatever they want and to respect that right once it does not cause hurt to those around, my problem is with the OO and notably their discrimination against catholics from joining their organisation and for the bigotry some hold dear and carry out without punishment.

I couldn't care less whether or not they allow Catholics to join their organisation.
I doubt many Catholics would want to, anyway.

What I do care about, is the blatant sectarianism, and triumphalism engaged in by so many of their members - such as not being allowed to marry Catholics (don't know whether that one is still in force), not allowed to attend Catholic funerals - and deliberately antagonising Catholics/Nationalists on marches.
That debacle outside the Church was disgusting - and even more disgusting was the blatant lies by the OO spokesman in an effort to cover it up/justify it.

At the first hint of any behaviour like that in marches in the Republic, I'd be the first to call for them to be banned.
But I will not get upset about them commemorating the 12th, because
A: It's a historical fact, whether I like the fact that it happened, or not.
and
B: We did gain Independence, and Religious freedom.

Finally, do you not think that banning the OO from marching here will affect the way some people may vote in the future about a United Ireland?
I know if I was undecided, and someone told me that an organisation that I was a member of was restricted, I'd be more inclined to vote against the thing.

In other words - we can't force bigotry out of the ranks of the OO by restricting them.
But allowing them to march in Donegal has been a positive thing - and I think it could be in Dublin, too.
We'll never know, if we don't try - and if they decide to make a mess of it - then we do have the option of banning the march from happening again, and bringing a criminal prosecution.

Noreen1 wrote: »

I couldn't care less whether or not they allow Catholics to join their organisation.
I doubt many Catholics would want to, anyway.

What I do care about, is the blatant sectarianism, and triumphalism engaged in by so many of their members - such as not being allowed to marry Catholics (don't know whether that one is still in force), not allowed to attend Catholic funerals - and deliberately antagonising Catholics/Nationalists on marches.
That debacle outside the Church was disgusting - and even more disgusting was the blatant lies by the OO spokesman in an effort to cover it up/justify it.

At the first hint of any behaviour like that in marches in the Republic, I'd be the first to call for them to be banned.
But I will not get upset about them commemorating the 12th, because
A: It's a historical fact, whether I like the fact that it happened, or not.
and
B: We did gain Independence, and Religious freedom.

Finally, do you not think that banning the OO from marching here will affect the way some people may vote in the future about a United Ireland?
I know if I was undecided, and someone told me that an organisation that I was a member of was restricted, I'd be more inclined to vote against the thing.

In other words - we can't force bigotry out of the ranks of the OO by restricting them.
But allowing them to march in Donegal has been a positive thing - and I think it could be in Dublin, too.
We'll never know, if we don't try - and if they decide to make a mess of it - then we do have the option of banning the march from happening again, and bringing a criminal prosecution.

I have no problem with the 12th being celebrated within the south of Ireland, i do have a problem with the OO celebrating it here because of their bigotry towards catholics.

If they cant be inclusive not only should we shun them but people in the north should too, before WOO both religions lived tolerating each other.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

And already reported.

Much like that band he's not happy unless he's trolling phantom enemies.

He loves us really, behind it all.:D

Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: »

billybudd, I don't see what exact point you are trying to make. Northern Ireland is a very peaceful place now. The problem is you still have intolerance of both traditions in Ireland. Green and Orange. It doesn't mean there isn't peace, it is just passive intolerance in many ways. This thread is a good example of this.

The band video for example is wrong but the way people are trying to label this as what goes on during the 12th is simply nonsense and propaganda of the worst king.

The vast majority of parades are perfectly peaceful and a good day out. It isn't the fault of the Protestant community that some elements within the Unionist tradition live in very backward areas in Belfast. And it is the same with Ardoyne and other Republican "areas".

Seeing the footage of Ardoyne and the fighting amongst themselves tells you all you need to know. Young people coming out to be offended, would not be able to tell you who created the Tri Colour or what it means and just wanted a riot and a punch up amongst themselves. It is a poverty issue as much as anything sectarian.

Trying to be shocked about Sectarianism when the actual government and political set up is institutionalised Sectarianism. Trying to think you can just get rid of it over 15 years is very naive and rather deluded. The Good Friday Agreement is a Sectarian agreement. It was a Sectarian carve up. The only thing it did was to bring peace to Northern Ireland for the vast majority of the year and stop people from being murdered and getting blown apart by bombs.

Thats such bull****, honestly, a sinn fein mayor of belfast sitting in a building with a union jack flying overhead, peace most of the year except when the OO come to town, a point i made earlier in this thread was that there was bunting everywhere and celebrations everywhere for the Queens jubilee awhile back and there was no trouble because of it, people loyal to the queen celebrated and celebrated in peace.

everywhere you look in the 6 counties there is a renewed energy from shops to restaurants to the excellent titanic center, the healthy nightlife, the fantastic pubs and nightclubs, the investment from all over Ireland, UK and afar.

A muriel of WOO in sandy row part financed by the south.

Alot has been achieved in 15 years, just look at Israel and palenstine.

And Sinn Fein deserve some of the credit for it.

I Voted for MMG in the presedential race, first time i have voted for a SF politician.

Noreen1 wrote: »

What I do care about, is the blatant sectarianism, and triumphalism engaged in by so many of their members - such as not being allowed to marry Catholics (don't know whether that one is still in force), not allowed to attend Catholic funerals - and deliberately antagonising Catholics/Nationalists on marches.

Members of the OO bend the rules to suit themselves, they do marry Catholics, attend catholic funerals etc. I would imagine it depends on what lodge you belong to.

Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: »

No one said Sinn Fein haven't done a lot for peace in recent years Billybudd. You are complaining about Sectarianism in a country which its political set up is enshrined in Sectarianism. Why you call a fact bullsh*t is beyond me. Sinn Fein and the DUP just recently came under fire for carving up a Sectarian headcount when it came to housing.

Perhaps you want to deny Sectarianism doesn't exist in Stormont but it does and most people know it does.

I dont deny there is still sectarian behavior, of course there is and it will take maybe another generation for it to pass, what i say is that at least it is at a stage where both groups are able to sit down togeather.

I called it bull**** because the tone of your reply was that it is not going anywhere, that its just about tolerating so there is peace where i do not think that is the case, i think each side is working towards a more tolerating and inclusive 6 counties and that they are indeed setting the blueprint for a peaceful and inclusive community for the future.

billybudd wrote: »

Who is attacking their religion?

No-one. That's the point.
To the OO member who is moderate, (the vast majority in the Republic, imo) this is a religious, rather than sectarian organisation.
Therefore, refusing to let them march will be viewed as an attack on their Religion.
The nut-jobs, of course, use it in the North to further their sectarian agenda.
We have an opportunity to allow moderate Protestants their day out - while stamping out the Sectarianism that was part of their marches in the North for too many years, which the British authorities failed to do.
Refuse the moderates their day, and alienate them - or grant them their day, and have them alienate the nutjobs in their midst, themselves?

That's what it boils down to, at the end of the day.

Bessiebee wrote: »

Noreen1 wrote: »

What I do care about, is the blatant sectarianism, and triumphalism engaged in by so many of their members - such as not being allowed to marry Catholics (don't know whether that one is still in force), not allowed to attend Catholic funerals - and deliberately antagonising Catholics/Nationalists on marches.

Members of the OO bend the rules to suit themselves, they do marry Catholics, attend catholic funerals etc. I would imagine it depends on what lodge you belong to.

I know that. I live in Donegal. I have OO members as neighbours, and perfectly good, upstanding, decent people they are, too.

I'm sure it depends on what lodge you belong to - and I'm equally sure that the most troublesome lodges are in the North.
What I do not understand is why moderate OO members tolerate the bile that the troublemakers spew.

I know that the OO is autonomous in every Country. What I can't understand is why the executive chooses to excuse the kind of behaviour in that video, and tells stupid lies to cover up for it.

Oh, by the way, I can safely say the majority of people in Donegal believe we are on the right side of the border.:p
Seriously, we're grand being Irish, and quite capable of getting on with our neighbours, whether Catholic or Protestant, Nationalist or Unionist.
That doesn't mean we want to be part of Northern Ireland, though.:eek:
In fact, tell someone from Donegal that they're from the North, and they're likely to find it offensive.
We're comfortable with our own identity, and part of that identity happens to be Irish.

Noreen1 wrote: »

No-one. That's the point.
To the OO member who is moderate, (the vast majority in the Republic, imo) this is a religious, rather than sectarian organisation.
Therefore, refusing to let them march will be viewed as an attack on their Religion.
The nut-jobs, of course, use it in the North to further their sectarian agenda.
We have an opportunity to allow moderate Protestants their day out - while stamping out the Sectarianism that was part of their marches in the North for too many years, which the British authorities failed to do.
Refuse the moderates their day, and alienate them - or grant them their day, and have them alienate the nutjobs in their midst, themselves?

That's what it boils down to, at the end of the day.

Bessiebee wrote: »

I know that. I live in Donegal. I have OO members as neighbours, and perfectly good, upstanding, decent people they are, too.

I'm sure it depends on what lodge you belong to - and I'm equally sure that the most troublesome lodges are in the North.
What I do not understand is why moderate OO members tolerate the bile that the troublemakers spew.

I know that the OO is autonomous in every Country. What I can't understand is why the executive chooses to excuse the kind of behaviour in that video, and tells stupid lies to cover up for it.

Oh, by the way, I can safely say the majority of people in Donegal believe we are on the right side of the border.:p
Seriously, we're grand being Irish, and quite capable of getting on with our neighbours, whether Catholic or Protestant, Nationalist or Unionist.
That doesn't mean we want to be part of Northern Ireland, though.:eek:
In fact, tell someone from Donegal that they're from the North, and they're likely to find it offensive.
We're comfortable with our own identity, and part of that identity happens to be Irish.

Oh, by the way my "Donegal being on the wrong side of the border" post was a light hearted attempt at injecting some humour but it obviously got lost in translation ... I am just one of those Donegal people suffering from an identity crisis, you know the ones who can give a word perfect rendition of the sash by the age of 2, a couple of decades later find themselves married to a catholic and have their own little small people who play Gaelic Football one week and go to the 12th July the next ... but I guess everyone has their own problems & seriously, no offence was intended. We could be neighbours afterall

Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: »

Orange Order members attend the event. Michael D Higgins attends the event with Orange Order members. Michael D Higgins is a Protestant, so he understands the importance the Order is to thousands of Protestants in Ireland.

Didnt you hear? His Da was in the 'RA.

Is he a protestant? I neither know nor care.

Fenian Army wrote: »

Didnt you hear? His Da was in the 'RA.

Is he a protestant? I neither know nor care.

He is non religious i think.

I think I read somewhere he is a humanist.

Marcellus Jerome Clarke wrote: »

He said during the Presidential election he was a Protestant. So I take him for his word.

I don't think so - you may be confusing him with David Norris.

PauloMN wrote: »

The OO, if you look at the rules of the organisation, has sectarianism enshrined in its very being.

Which is the point, you are either for that or against it. Turn a blind eye to it and it will eventually take the lid off the box. With a drop from over 100,000 members in 1968 to less than 30,000 and falling today, it won't be long until the thugs are running it. Natural selection has seen it fall, now it's up to responsible governments to finish it off, by not tolerating sectarianism in whatever funny hats it comes dressed.
Celebrate your culture by all means, but celebrate it with personal responsibility and self respect.

are all orangemen bigots?

Nope.