Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

jamo2oo9 · 24-03-2017 11:43pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Shane Ross took the 44 once and liked it.

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/banter/trending/transport-minister-returns-to-work-with-bizarre-bus-selfie-and-twitter-is-not-impressed-35337736.html

Get him to take the 17a and let's see how he likes it :rolleyes:

Consonata · 25-03-2017 3:49pm

One would hope that if Ross and co. had any semblance of forward thinking, they would automate the whole thing, eliminating the need for drivers (and consequentially eliminating strikes

)

I'm sure if Ross could end strikes right now he would.

marno21 · 29-03-2017 1:51am

https://twitter.com/CISireland/status/846353390590459906

New Metro North ploughs on

FreudianSlippers · 29-03-2017 9:14am

Wait. I'm confused... is this now going back to the original plan or the new proposed shorter/fewer stops idea?

yannakis · 29-03-2017 9:30am

Seriously?

Peregrine · 29-03-2017 10:32am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Wait. I'm confused... is this now going back to the original plan or the new proposed shorter/fewer stops idea?

The Shortsighted Metro North. Since it's a different plan, it needs public consultations and a new railway order, EIS etc.

Basically, we've come back to square one despite having a perfectly good plan ready to go.

FreudianSlippers · 29-03-2017 10:38am

Peregrine wrote: »

The Shortsighted Metro North. Since it's a different plan, it needs public consultations and a new railway order, EIS etc.

Basically, we've come back to square one despite having a perfectly good plan ready to go.

That's what I thought, but then IIRC they were pushing that timetable back up to start 2019, which doesn't seem possible under the proposed new plan?

Idbatterim · 29-03-2017 4:48pm

absolutely pathetic! construction inflation will leave us waiting years, for an inferior soluation and it will be more expensive! See the politicians throw out "gold plated" etc. Convenient how they wont acknowledge inflation, the cost to dublin of the current infrastructure joke though :rolleyes:

annfield1978 · 29-03-2017 8:27pm

New Metro North is undergoing an alignment study, probably finished in June for which Arup are being paid €1,886,500

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/PO_greater_than_20k_Q4_2016.pdf

so i would take CIS Website with a pinch of salt

marno21 · 30-03-2017 10:08am

annfield1978 wrote: »

New Metro North is undergoing an alignment study, probably finished in June for which Arup are being paid €1,886,500

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/PO_greater_than_20k_Q4_2016.pdf

so i would take CIS Website with a pinch of salt

Nice money for a job that's already done.

What are the odds of New Metro North ending up costing more than Metro North in the finish

CatInABox · 30-03-2017 1:06pm

marno21 wrote: »

Nice money for a job that's already done.

What are the odds of New Metro North ending up costing more than Metro North in the finish

Construction tender price inflation was 6% last year. The more it's delayed, the worse it'll get, particularly as the savings that they've been talking about aren't exactly big figures in the scheme of things.

What's more concerning is if this government lasts, then they may look for even bigger cuts in the project to "justify" the delay. No point in announcing that the "New Metro North" will cost more than the "Metro North", so let's announce the "New New Metro North", with just two ten metre stops! Problem solved!

Grandeeod · 30-03-2017 1:49pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Personally I predict many more years of talk, talk, talk and then when it seems like we may have money to do something, we will re-plan everything all over again. History repeats itself, unless you cry stop! We don't do that in Ireland.

I have been right about so much and took a lot of abuse on Boards.ie for my opinions. However it is all coming to fruition now. I check in here daily and already see the "alternative" ideas being promoted. It is only a matter of time before this filters down to political level. It will. MN and DU will be reinvented in the coming years and yet more talk and debate will ensue. I stake my reputation (which isn't too bad:D) on it.

Thankfully I won't be here to get emotionally embroiled in it.

The above post is from nearly 6 bloody years ago! And its actually right.

Idbatterim · 30-03-2017 2:34pm

What's more concerning is if this government lasts, then they may look for even bigger cuts in the project to "justify" the delay. No point in announcing that the "New Metro North" will cost more than the "Metro North", so let's announce the "New New Metro North", with just two ten metre stops! Problem solved!

YEAH! this is it, if they tunnel straight out to Ranelagh, as they should, any headline savings on the original scheme, will be gone. Laughable how the tunnel entrance now has a building application for an office scheme!

It would be even cheaper if there were no stops...

There are several joke BRT schemes, two in planning, that are costing €600,000,000 or some astronomical figure for the rubbish we will get. Its time to look at all project and priorities those that will provide SERIOUS solutions, get them built asap and the other joke projects can wait!

€80,000,000 as a serious proposal to cut MN capacity by one third, to save about 3% of budget I calculated! Now much of that 3% goes directly back into government coffers very quickly, vat, PAYE, corporation tax, circular flow of income. So effectively cut 33% in capacity, to save as good as nothing!!!

Its a total scandal. Goldplated to me, would have been large sections of underground running where it was a real luxury, there is non of that! For ornce when we had the money, an absolute half assed scheme wasnt proposed, that is the reality!!!

It is back to the usual good old Irish lack of foresight, just fudge. My opinion is, to save this sham, they should have simply said, the project is sound, the state finances arent good enough to go with it at this time i.e when they made the decision in 2015. Now of course, its a matter of political will and priorities, of which unfortunately infrastructure is nearly bottom of the heap unfortunately.

Christ this country desperately needs a party to sort out the housing, health and infrastructure sham. then after that, the income tax system and welfare can be looked at!

Grandeeod · 30-03-2017 5:32pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

YEAH! this is it, if they tunnel straight out to Ranelagh, as they should, any headline savings on the original scheme, will be gone. Laughable how the tunnel entrance now has a building application for an office scheme!

It would be even cheaper if there were no stops...

There are several joke BRT schemes, two in planning, that are costing €600,000,000 or some astronomical figure for the rubbish we will get. Its time to look at all project and priorities those that will provide SERIOUS solutions, get them built asap and the other joke projects can wait!

€80,000,000 as a serious proposal to cut MN capacity by one third, to save about 3% of budget I calculated! Now much of that 3% goes directly back into government coffers very quickly, vat, PAYE, corporation tax, circular flow of income. So effectively cut 33% in capacity, to save as good as nothing!!!

Its a total scandal. Goldplated to me, would have been large sections of underground running where it was a real luxury, there is non of that! For ornce when we had the money, an absolute half assed scheme wasnt proposed, that is the reality!!!

It is back to the usual good old Irish lack of foresight, just fudge. My opinion is, to save this sham, they should have simply said, the project is sound, the state finances arent good enough to go with it at this time i.e when they made the decision in 2015. Now of course, its a matter of political will and priorities, of which unfortunately infrastructure is nearly bottom of the heap unfortunately.

Christ this country desperately needs a party to sort out the housing, health and infrastructure sham. then after that, the income tax system and welfare can be looked at!

You really need to understand that there are no votes in tackling housing and transport issues. Perhaps Health is a slightly better vote getter, but not to any great degree. People vote based on money in their pockets, therefore income tax and welfare are the biggest guns of all. Its going to take Irish society many many more years before transport issues are taken seriously come election time. That said, its very sad indeed that our politicians just simply fail to understand the importance of building decent public transport projects regardless of them becoming important election issues.

I always reiterate that DU and MN will never be built and I have often been rebutted by posters telling me that "never" is a rediculous thing to say. They get annoyed. But what they fail to realise is that if a metro or DART tunnel is ever built in Dublin, you can bet your life it will not resemble anything we are currently talking about. Thats how far away all of this is and that opinion is firmly based on history and the predictable pattern that Irish Governments follow.

Idbatterim · 30-03-2017 5:50pm

You really need to understand that there are no votes in tackling housing and transport issues. Perhaps Health is a slightly better vote getter, but not to any great degree. People vote based on money in their pockets, therefore income tax and welfare are the biggest guns of all. Its going to take Irish society many many more years before transport issues are taken seriously come election time. That said, its very sad indeed that our politicians just simply fail to understand the importance of building decent public transport projects regardless of them becoming important election issues.

I always reiterate that DU and MN will never be built and I have often been rebutted by posters telling me that "never" is a rediculous thing to say. They get annoyed. But what they fail to realise is that if a metro or DART tunnel is ever built in Dublin, you can bet your life it will not resemble anything we are currently talking about. Thats how far away all of this is and that opinion is firmly based on history and the predictable pattern that Irish Governments follow.

The thing is Grandeeod, for me, I know as well as you do, that for multiple reasons, including the housing crisis, that transport is vital. To me now, talk of a mickey mouse .5% usc cut in the budget is beyond an insult. Its way past the point of nonsense like that. The serious serious issue now on the money front, is with the cost of putting a roof over your head, in dublin in particular.

I am not sure I agree with you on housing, its such an massive issue that effects all of us and its an area we spend major money... I would have though any party, who puts forward a serious response to the property crisis, would hoover up votes. There is so little to go around in terms of "fiscal space" come budget time. It would cost nothing, in fact it would generate a fortune. to allow way higher density buildings and get rid of over the top lift ratio requirements, cut down outdoor space requirement and dual aspect... That is off topic though...

the politicians are to blame for not having any spine or vision. Its why nothing here ever works!

Grandeeod · 30-03-2017 6:35pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

The thing is Grandeeod, for me, I know as well as you do, that for multiple reasons, including the housing crisis, that transport is vital. To me now, talk of a mickey mouse .5% usc cut in the budget is beyond an insult. Its way past the point of nonsense like that. The serious serious issue now on the money front, is with the cost of putting a roof over your head, in dublin in particular.

I am not sure I agree with you on housing, its such an massive issue that effects all of us and its an area we spend major money... I would have though any party, who puts forward a serious response to the property crisis, would hoover up votes. There is so little to go around in terms of "fiscal space" come budget time. It would cost nothing, in fact it would generate a fortune. to allow way higher density buildings and get rid of over the top lift ratio requirements, cut down outdoor space requirement and dual aspect... That is off topic though...

the politicians are to blame for not having any spine or vision. Its why nothing here ever works!

Sure. We don't want to get too far off topic with housing and I agree with your transport related views to it. But even during this country's craziest times in the mid noughties, the housing issue and its related transport issues was totally and absolutely ignored by the Government. Go back 13 or so years on this site and the issues were identical. It took until the eve of the crash until we saw very small positive transport developments in relation to property development, but it all came too late.

Politicians carry the blame alright and there are a myriad of reasons for their total and absolute failure. But the general public must shoulder some of the blame too. Not all of us, but a great proportion. Throughout the previous decade, this country was flying high. In both the 2002 and 2007 General elections, voters didn't give a fiddlers feck about public transport issues. Despite the airwaves being filled with moaning and groaning about the M50 (in Dublin terms) and railways (in both Dublin and national terms) the ultimate vote came down to more money in your pocket. Sadly that is a fact and continues today.

I agree with so much of what you say and admire your passion, but I honestly cannot see any change for a very long time. As a nation we need to mature more in terms of what we see as quality of life.

marno21 · 05-04-2017 7:57pm

Latest on Metro North from Michael Nolan, CEO of Transport Infrastructure Ireland.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
I return to metro north. The Luas cross-city project is close to completion and will be another great asset for the capital city. Dublin Airport has reached the figure of 28 million passengers and is heading towards its cap. It could be heading to become a Gatwick-sized airport. What is its status? When he was here a few months ago the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, had us hopping on metro north around 2026 or 2027, which seems like an incredible time into the future. What work has been done so far? As Mr. Nolan knows, Fingal County Council is now 100% behind the project which will assist the county. The local authority received the accolade from the chambers of commerce of being No. 1 in the country for its economic and social planning and so on. What steps are we taking? Is it possible to expedite the project to have some system in place to assist Dublin's north side, in particular Fingal and the airport which is such a driver of economic growth?

Mr. Michael Nolan:
We are working on it and have been for the past year. We are effectively starting with a clean page for metro north which will have to connect Dublin city centre with the airport and on to Swords. Beyond that, no particular constraint was put on us. We are obliged to look at it afresh, which we are doing. The elements that need to be teased out fully are where we will tie into the green line south of the city centre; where we will interact with the city centre and the DART underground service; and the positioning of stations within the city centre. The positioning at Dublin Airport is fixed and we know exactly where we are going. The manner in which we will interact with Swords is still being looked at. The programme is to have the alignment, the preferred route, selected by quarter one of next year. The public consultation phases will start at the end of this year, in engaging with Fingal County Council, the other local authorities and other interests such as the Dublin Airport Authority prior to that. By July we will probably be clear on a number of the engineering questions relating to the alignment and can then progress from there. The plan is to be at An Bord Pleanála by 2021 and have construction complete by 2026 or 2027. I know that it might seem like a long way away, but it is a very big project.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
We have been working on this or at least thinking about it since the early 1990s. It has gone on for a quarter of a century or more. Has TII totally ruled out using a Spanish-type system? During the years people have been impressed by how the Spaniards created an amazing metro system in Madrid, Seville, Malaga and various other Spanish cities. Have we ruled it out completely?

Mr. Michael Nolan:
We have been engaged in fact-finding in other cities, including Madrid, Barcelona, Oporto and Copenhagen. We have been informing the process with the experience the developers of those networks have had. The notion of having an extensive network would be the subject of a policy decision outside our remit; we are delivering metro north. We have studied the methodologies used and the costs incurred. We will seek to exploit whatever advantage we can.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
However, TII has not ruled out any faster engineering solution such as that used in Spain.

Mr. Michael Nolan:
Certainly not. We would very much like to use the technologies used there. We are just concluding a tunnelling option study that has looked at single-bore, twin-bore and mono-bore and the manner in which the various stations can be constructed. We need to get to the end of that process and have more clarity on the alignments through the city centre before we can start engaging meaningfully with the local authorities and other agencies. We have not ruled out and would seek to exploit every new method of construction used in

Tommy Broughan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
Including linkages with Luas obviously.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
On metro north, many people are flying into Dublin and travelling on to Belfast as opposed to flying into Belfast. Is it to connect with the Dublin to Belfast line?

Mr. Michael Nolan:
It is to connect with mainline rail services in the city centre, including the DART underground service. The mainline rail station that will serve the DART underground service will be a major area of interaction and connection for metro north.

However, one could not come off a flight in Dublin and theoretically take metro north northwards to Swords and connect with the Dublin-Belfast train.

Mr. Michael Nolan:
There is no intention for a connection between metro north and mainline rail. The airport and Swords are the targets. A park-and-ride facility at the northern end of the line will be part of the scope of the project.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
A person would have to come into the city and then take the train.

Mr. Michael Nolan:
Whether there is a further connection made to mainline rail outside of this project would be a matter for the NTA and the transport strategy.

MJohnston · 05-04-2017 8:24pm

"We are obliged to look at it afresh" clearly TII think it's a bit ridiculous discarding the already completed plan too.

lateconnection · 05-04-2017 9:07pm

"where we will interact with the city centre"- I wonder are they having doubts about the location of the stations.

If they go with just SSG and OCS Upper, the gap between the stations will be over 1 km. This is simply too great a distance in the core city centre area. In many world cities, the gap between core city centre stations is usually around 400-600 metres.

Once there is more than one kilometre between stations they will need an intervention shaft.

Personally, I wold like to see OCS Upper, and a new station at College Green to serve the new plaza, and interchange with Luas Cross City. Then onwards to SSG and the Green Line.

At least we now know that Metro South and Metro North will be done as the one combined project, and not two separate ones.

Despite all this, I still hold out hope that they will go with the original scheme and fast track the project. They wouldn't have mentioned that they could fast track it when they announced the additional capital funding in January if they were not going to fast track it. James Reilly also talked about the thousands of jobs that will come if MN is fast-tracked, and then a source close to Paschal said it was a political certainty for next year that it would be fast--tracked, as reported in a local North Dublin newspaper a few weeks back.

I think FG are dropping hints that it could indeed be fast-tracked. We will find out in the budget.

Grandeeod · 05-04-2017 9:33pm

marno21 wrote: »

Latest on Metro North from Michael Nolan, CEO of Transport Infrastructure Ireland.

A predictable and depressing read.

Peregrine · 05-04-2017 9:36pm

lateconnection wrote: »

Despite all this, I still hold out hope that they will go with the original scheme and fast track the project. They wouldn't have mentioned that they could fast track it when they announced the additional capital funding in January if they were not going to fast track it. James Reilly also talked about the thousands of jobs that will come if MN is fast-tracked, and then a source close to Paschal said it was a political certainty for next year that it would be fast--tracked, as reported in a local North Dublin newspaper a few weeks back.

I think FG are dropping hints that it could indeed be fast-tracked. We will find out in the budget.

What do you mean 'fast-track'? Any mention of 'fast-track' from the politicians is referring to drawing up a new design and getting it ready to go to ABP in 2021.

They're not going back to the original scheme. Is the 'source close to Paschal' Alan Farrell by any chance? He demonstrated that he knows nothing about Metro North on Twitter when he said that the original plan's railway order expired in 2015. I wouldn't trust him with my bus fare, let alone details about Metro North.

Grandeeod · 05-04-2017 9:41pm

Deedsie wrote: »

Why don't they just make Metro North run from Donabate train station to Stephens Green Luas stop.

That way it would be connected to the Belfast to Dublin rail line, facilitating airport passengers traveling from the North.

Seems like a more sensible approach. I don't understand the comment that you won't be able travel North from the Airport on Metro North sure won't it be heading to Swords anyway just extend the line to Donabate train station and you have an a really useful additional connection.

As I've said in the DU thread, you will have your chance to say this during yet another public consultation process. Perhaps after a new route is selected by next year a change of Government will see yet another need to look at the project again and Donabate can be another excuse for more talk and no action. I wonder how many attempts at building MN it will take to convince people that the powers that be dont actually want to build it.

Grandeeod · 05-04-2017 10:55pm

Another point I would like to make about this MN fiasco and thats what it is.

MN was an idea that emanated from a FF lead Government. In fact successive FF lead Governments. Isn't it funny now that our current Government that is effectively propped up by FF is getting grief about water charges from FF, yet Martin and his cronies haven't uttered a controversial word about MN or even DU and their return to reinvention utopia?

They don't give a flying fiddlers about these projects. They never did or will.

Idbatterim · 05-04-2017 11:15pm

I hopefully you guys will be attending the public consultations? I think it's time they got put straight. I'll ask if it's worth considering employing a manual hand pushed carriages as it could cut down on the Rolling Stock cost... sure if cheap is croteria number one, whybnoy go all out? In general I have lost patience dealing with morons and They don't come any bigger than our public representatives! As has been mentioned, I wouldn't trust Alan Farrell with 2.50 never mind 2,500,000,000!!!

strassenwo!f · 05-04-2017 11:58pm

Mr Michael Nolan wrote:

The elements that need to be teased out fully are where we will tie into the green line south of the city centre; where we will interact with the city centre and the DART underground service; and the positioning of stations within the city centre.

I would think that the issue of the location of the tie-in between the metro and the Green Line, south of the city centre, as he says, has been pretty much established. It looks like it's going to be, and in my opinion it should be, at St. Stephen's Green.

It is the nature of this tie-in which is critical.

Is it that that the Green line will become a continuation of the proposed metro - a significant error, in my opinion - or will it be that there's going to be an interchange between metro and Green line luas at this location, with the metro eventually heading off to the south-west of the city?

Idbatterim · 06-04-2017 1:52am

It should surface at ranelagh. The curve at chariemomt as well as on street running is issue of you terminate at ssg. Yes the green lim will be upgraded to "metro" stAtus

fionnsci · 06-04-2017 10:02am

I see that a separate thread has popped up on the proposed Lucan luas line amid some renewed talk of it. Given that it's only at planning stage, I suppose we don't know how it will interact with Luas Cross City (will it join it?) or with the College Green Plaza (will it pass through it or stop on Dame Street before it, without linking to the Green Line?). Given that it seems there's a large chance that they won't want to spoil the plaza by having trams running down it in two directions, it's likely that the Lucan line would be isolated from Metro North if it's only city centre stops are at SSG and O'CS. Given that neither project has yet been built, it would be outlandish for them not to figure out a sensible way to link them up. Therefore, I agree that a College Green stop would also be appropriate to bridge the gap between SSG and O'CS

BonnieSituation · 06-04-2017 10:30am

A Lucan line (eugh) would link to the red line I would wager. If teh plan is to continue to through Palmerstown and Chapelizod then that would happen at Heuston/Parkgate. If the plan (as I saw before is to go through Ballyfermot then it would link at Bluebell (which is the maddest ide ever and makes no real practical sens in isolation from a more direct city route. Linking the Lucan line through Ballyfermot and on to the red line and further south through Walkinstown and Kimmage, Terenure etc would be a good idea at some point in the future, but not now..

marno21 · 10-04-2017 11:08am

https://www.businesspost.ie/politics/donohoe-pledges-fast-track-e2-3-billion-metro-north-plan-384646

Donohue confirms that more money will be spent on the redesigned Metro North, with less tunnelling and fewer stations, to get it to construction quicker. Meanwhile, a more functional Metro North with planning permission sits idle. Sigh.

yannakis · 10-04-2017 11:13am

Double sigh.

Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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