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N21 Thread

124678

Comments

  • #152
    limklad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    I wonder have this bypass road (Abbeyfeale to Adare) got the chop in the government new budget cutbacks? Last Sunday was a perfect example for a new road especially dual carriageway/overtaking lanes. A Starlet driver pick up a fine tailback heading ( I counted 30 and that as far I could see in my rear view mirror because of a truck) into NCW from the Rathkeale side which caused a traffic headaches for many road users in the Town and before that mad overtakers putting other road users at risk.


  • #153
    limklad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    I have rumours this weekend that the Blue Route for the AbbeyFeale to Adare bypass is going to be selected. Did anyone else heard otherwise?


  • #154
    Mc Love
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,015 ✭✭✭✭Mc Love


    Passed through C'island the other day, looks like they are making good progress


  • #155
    limklad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    I just found out that the Route Selection for the Abbeyfeale to Adare will be formally selected in October.

    The Rumours are that the Blue Route will be selected. Did anybody else heard anything different?


  • #156
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,148 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    limklad wrote: »
    I wonder have this bypass road (Abbeyfeale to Adare) got the chop in the government new budget cutbacks?
    I was under the impression that this was long-fingered alright.


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  • #157
    limklad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,980 ✭✭✭limklad


    spacetweek wrote: »
    I was under the impression that this was long-fingered alright.
    I have no doubt that the road build is on the long finger, but the route needs to be planned so people in the country can build new homes near their home place, otherwise the NRA will object to planning permission left right and centre and it is a very wide area the NRA are interested in. Planning of the road will remove any doubt or concerns for farmers and business and families to plan for the future. There no point of building new farm buildings or new homes, if the NRA are going to knock or divide up a good part of their land.


  • #158
    Abbey Ct
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭Abbey Ct


    I think all of the constraints area study is currently frozen for planning permission - which is a huge area encompassing all potential routes. When a route is chosen in the next few weeks as the "Preferred Route", then the other areas will be unfrozen.
    However, it has been publically said that there will be no construction for at least 10 years. So the unfortunate landowners on the preferred route will have their land frozen for all of that period. Then the NRA might change their minds & pick another routre as they did with the Adare bypass last year.
    I too have heard it will be the Blue southern route - just like with Adare. If they do that, then in years to come we will also have to build bypasses / widened roads for the N69. Pity they wouldn't kill 2 birds with one stone & build one route in between both roads (ie N21 & N69) & save the costs of an extra road. But that would be planned & joined up thinking which of course the NRA don't do.


  • #159
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Latest on the N21 Castleisland bypass here. I've been told an opening of late October. Didint have time for more updates on it but there is still a little bit of work on the tie in at the Limerick rd roundabout.


  • #160
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Just posting tech2's pictures here:
    tech2 wrote: »
    Hi Guys,

    Had a look at the bypass today and it's very close to completion on the Tralee-Limerick road section. It's nearly all lined and studded but the Killarney-Tralee rd section is a little behind that but the length is not that long.

    I took two photos from the pound road. First one is looking north:

    IMAG0008.jpg

    This one is looking south from the same overpass. The wire mesh for the median hasnt been done yet but the markings are in place for the steel poles. Also there seems to be a cycle/walking path on the verge too!!



    IMAG0007.jpg


  • #161
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Those pictures are probably quite accurate. Thats as much traffic as this will generate. Absolute disgrace that this is 2+2, for heavens sake.


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  • #162
    summer11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭summer11


    Chris, Have you ever travelled this road?! 2+2 is about right - it should be all the way to Limerick and will be at some stage.

    Tourism in Cork/Kerry badly needs this as 2+2 along with N22 - not to mention freight movements within these two counties.


  • #163
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    As I've said previously this route only stretches 3km in length for the 2+2 section and gives good overtaking opportunities before reaching the WS2/S2 parts again. Hardly a disgrace.


  • #164
    veryangryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,604 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0913/rta.html

    I cant help but be sad at stuff like this that happens on a road that has been planned for DC upgrade. Without the recession and such, you can make an argument that the road would have been upgraded by now and these people would still be alive.

    More than any paycuts, job losses or lifestyle adjustments that they have caused, this is why bankers need to go to jail and stay there.


  • #165
    summer11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭summer11


    I agree.

    The volume of traffic any morning,afternoon or evening on this National Road warrants 2+2.

    This is the 2nd fatal traffic collision this Summer/Autumn at the Bearnagh Gap.

    Any more arguments for 2+2 needed.........


  • #166
    summer11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭summer11


    Correction:

    I agree with the first part of previous post - the second is unhelpful and unwarranted in relation to this tragedy.


  • #167
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    This section of N21 is the most dangerous also. Some very dangerous junctions, narrow S2 and 2 very bad bends. And what makes it worse is that it's only about 5km long and would hardly have cost much to upgrade the road years ago.


  • #168
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Those pictures are probably quite accurate. Thats as much traffic as this will generate. Absolute disgrace that this is 2+2, for heavens sake.

    Didnt realise that only a bit of this was 2+2. 2-3km of it is appropriate after all.


  • #169
    mk6705
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 721 ✭✭✭mk6705


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Those pictures are probably quite accurate. Thats as much traffic as this will generate. Absolute disgrace that this is 2+2, for heavens sake.

    Where do you live? I'm taking a fairly educated guess it's not Kerry.

    2+2 is more than justified. Just look at traffic through Castleisland anytime before this is opened. It's hardly a motorway anyway.


  • #170
    mk6705
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 721 ✭✭✭mk6705


    Chris_5339762 wrote: »
    Didnt realise that only a bit of this was 2+2. 2-3km of it is appropriate after all.

    The N21 part is 2+2, there's a spur to the N23, that's the bit that's WS2. So all the N21 bit is 2+2.


  • #171
    summer11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭summer11


    Well said Adro.

    To be clear the N21 and N22 should be both 2+2 and meet in a semi orbital route of Killarney.

    Adding to a completed M7,M8,M18 and M20 - Only when these types of projects are complete, and only then can we claim to have a "World Class Road System" the type of line that is often spouted by a Chairman or Minister.

    There are other projects that are needing a start/completion in every area of the country - the N11/N17 are just an example of 2.

    There is a case that all National Routes should be 2+2 or Divided Highways as they are called in the US (World Class Interstates/Motorways are a step up from these) Every other road should then be re-classified as a Regional Road.

    Perhaps this is something that we cannot afford now, but these can be built within in 6 years and financed over the next 50 years.

    Perhaps then there will less of the tragedies that happen day in day out on our National road system.


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  • #172
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    AFAIK the N23 cross section is narrow single carriageway not WS2


  • #173
    summer11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭summer11


    tech 2 :

    AFAIK??


    1.6KM/1 mile - how much extra would this have cost?

    In years ahead it will end up as 2+2 in plain english....


  • #174
    nordydan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭nordydan


    IMO:

    N21 should be 2+2 at least from the end of Castleisland Bypass to Limerick, and S2 into Tralee, especially as the N22 is planned to be rerouted to the southern part of the new Tralee Bypass

    N22 should be 2+2 at least in its entirety

    N23 only requires S2


  • #175
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    The only upgrades needed on the N21 are:

    2+2 Adare to Abbeyfeale scheme
    2+2 Adare bypass included in the M20 project.



    summer11 wrote:
    AFAIK??

    AFAIK: As far as I know


  • #176
    summer11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭summer11


    Tech 2:

    Thank you for clarifying AFAIK!

    However, whilst I agree with your assessment on the likely M20 & N21 road plans - you are not addressing the Economic, Social and Safety benefits of a loop 2+2/Dual Carriageway/Motorway between the N20,N21,N22 & N23.

    Why have 2+2 from Adare to Abbeyfeale break for 10 KMs to Castleisland then 2+2 for 3.5km and back to Single Carriageway on N21 for 1.6KMs?

    These are exactly the type of road plans that are contributing to fatalities - The National Road Network should be constant - The overtaking lane improves road safety full stop!

    I repeat once again - No new National Roads should be delivered as Single Carriageway projects - Has the N7 Nenagh bypass not taught us this lesson?!


  • #177
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    I wonder how much extra would it have cost to build this to HQDC/Motorway spec? It seems like a waste of money to me the way they did it, the road all the way down to Kerry should be uograded to Motorway and I am a firm beleiver of every county in Ireland should be connected to the Motorway network with a 3x3 from Cork up through the spine of the country branching of for Derry and Belfast.

    In the words of Charlie Haughey, if we build it, they will come, when he faced accusation of white elephants for giving his backing to Knock airport. He was a crook but he got that much right. We need to take a long term vision and I think the country should borrow heavily now and build a world class road network when construction and material costs are so low. The short term economic gain from building it would help but in the long term the benefits would be reaped many times over.


  • #178
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,576 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Where have they come from for Knock airport? It survives on PSOs, can't sustain trans atlantic routes despite its massive runway and IS a white elephant.

    Kerry doesn't need a motorway. 2+2 is more than sufficient.


  • #179
    summer11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭summer11


    I agree with MYOB

    2+2 would be sufficient for linking provincial towns/cities and the Atlantic Corridor.


  • #180
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    MYOB wrote: »
    Where have they come from for Knock airport? It survives on PSOs, can't sustain trans atlantic routes despite its massive runway and IS a white elephant.

    Kerry doesn't need a motorway. 2+2 is more than sufficient.

    Of course everything outside the M50 is a white elephant :rolleyes:, such myopic viewpoints is what has led Ireland to have such unbalanced regional development. Infrastructure is the key to bridging the gap and get balanced regional powershift.

    Knock has Ryanair, Aer Lingus and BMI plus a plethora of charters, traffic on all transatlantic routes are down from Dublin and elsewhere, if Aer Lingus could they would scrap the lot of them and stick to flying into full service airports in Europe.


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  • #181
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    summer11 wrote: »
    Why have 2+2 from Adare to Abbeyfeale break for 10 KMs to Castleisland then 2+2 for 3.5km and back to Single Carriageway on N21 for 1.6KMs?

    These are exactly the type of road plans that are contributing to fatalities - The National Road Network should be constant - The overtaking lane improves road safety full stop!

    The reason the Castleisland-Abbeyfeale scheme was built WS2 over 2+2 is because the 2+2 was only brought in around that time! The NRA had piloted schemes for th 2+1 and 2+2 around that time. Given the 2+2 has been a success on the N4 Dromod-Rooskey bypass all new schemes will be built 2+2 unless a S2 or HQDC are required.
    I repeat once again - No new National Roads should be delivered as Single Carriageway projects - Has the N7 Nenagh bypass not taught us this lesson?!

    There will be. National secondary routes will be built single carriageway. N7 is a totally different story. The N21 will never reach the traffic levels the N7 has and could potentially reach. Lets remember the M7 links the republics 1st and 3rd largest cities.


  • #182
    summer11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭summer11


    tech2 wrote: »
    The reason the Castleisland-Abbeyfeale scheme was built WS2 over 2+2 is because the 2+2 was only brought in around that time! The NRA had piloted schemes for th 2+1 and 2+2 around that time. Given the 2+2 has been a success on the N4 Dromod-Rooskey bypass all new schemes will be built 2+2 unless a S2 or HQDC are required.

    We know all this Tech 2 - But this is 2010 where we need to get better value for the spend whilst not forgetting safety.

    Oncoming Traffic needs to be divided by barriers and overtaking should not be as perilous as it is in Ireland in 2010! Hence 2+2 at least..

    How many more head on collisions are needed where drivers wait for an opportune moment to overtake and then realise too late that it's not?

    There will be. National secondary routes will be built single carriageway. N7 is a totally different story. The N21 will never reach the traffic levels the N7 has and could potentially reach. Lets remember the M7 links the republics 1st and 3rd largest cities.

    That's why 2+2 at about €4 Million a KM is about right - not Motorways at €12million a KM!

    Why is the Tullamore bypass single carriageway??!

    How much extra would it have cost to have a safer road with 2+2?


  • #183
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,967 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Tullamore was signed and started before 2+2 was brought in.


  • #184
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,576 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Of course everything outside the M50 is a white elephant :rolleyes:, such myopic viewpoints is what has led Ireland to have such unbalanced regional development. Infrastructure is the key to bridging the gap and get balanced regional powershift.

    Knock has Ryanair, Aer Lingus and BMI plus a plethora of charters, traffic on all transatlantic routes are down from Dublin and elsewhere, if Aer Lingus could they would scrap the lot of them and stick to flying into full service airports in Europe.

    Cork Airport isn't a white elephant. One of the west coast ones wouldn't be if there wasn't one in every major seaboard county. Waterfor was definitely viable pre M9, not so sure now.

    Knock has a pissant amount of flights from a few airlines, a limited number of charters, and would not exist without PSO. It was a white elephant at day 1 seeing as Galway already had Carnmore airport at the time.


  • #185
    mk6705
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 721 ✭✭✭mk6705


    tech2 wrote: »
    AFAIK the N23 cross section is narrow single carriageway not WS2

    That would strike me as strange, for a few reasons.

    For a start, alot of the existing N23 could be considered WS2, depending on your standards.

    The KCC plans don't distinguish between S2 and WS2, for example the Limerick road link-in is classified as "Standard S2 with climbing lane".

    The amount of land taken for it from the new roundabout looks a little wider than narrow S2.


  • #186
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Compare the S2 climbing lane outside of Castleisland to the section of Castleisland-Abbeyfeale scheme across from Knockagoshel village. A big difference in width on the driving lane. KCC does distinguish WS2 from S2.

    After searching through my emails with the road design engineer who is over the project I found that it is S2 on the N23 section not WS2 and not narrow S2 which I thought it was. See Here:
    The scheme will have at grade roundabouts at the N23 Killarney road and the N21 Tralee Road. The cross-section between these two roundabouts will be Single Carriageway (S2).


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  • #187
    summer11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭summer11


    Yes whatever - S2, WS2, 2+2, I bet the difference in the actual width of the Asphalt/Tar (or K2 to use some mountainous jargon) on the N23 portion is negligible.

    The fact here is that the pavement could take 2+2 for little extra cost and safe lives, time and money in the long run.

    Why oh why do some people not see this?

    The excellent pictures taken by Tech 2 (Thank you) of the 2+2 portion of the Castleisland bypass would show that the width of pavement is no more than any WS2 built in the last 10 years.

    All that is different is that there is some stoney rubble on the edge, as has the M50 between Tallaght and Sandyford, as an excuse for a hard shoulder.

    To follow through on this - the Abbeyfeale to Castleisland improvements completed in July 2006 are as wide as the 2+2 in these photos!


  • #188
    Irish and Proud
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    summer11 wrote: »
    Yes whatever - S2, WS2, 2+2, I bet the difference in the actual width of the Asphalt/Tar (or K2 to use some mountainous jargon) on the N23 portion is negligible.

    The fact here is that the pavement could take 2+2 for little extra cost and safe lives, time and money in the long run.

    Why oh why do some people not see this?

    S2: 12.3m pavement
    WS2: 15.0m pavement
    2+2: 16.5m pavement


  • #189
    lordofthedung
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭lordofthedung


    veryangryman wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0913/rta.html

    "I cant help but be sad at stuff like this that happens on a road that has been planned for DC upgrade. Without the recession and such, you can make an argument that the road would have been upgraded by now and these people would still be alive.

    More than any paycuts, job losses or lifestyle adjustments that they have caused, this is why bankers need to go to jail and stay there.
    "



    This is also due to the do nothing or do it big scenario of the NRA and limerick Co.Co., 20 years ago they improved the road at the top of Barna and stopped instead of continuing on and bypassing NCW on the northern side that would have improved the road then no end just like the Rathkeale bypass.

    Now they can not do anything for the next 10 years due to the state the country is in and how many more people will they kill with their do nothing scenario, leaving big lanes inside yellow lines is a disgrace these should be changed to white broken lines and 2+1 inserted straight away to allow traffic to flow and then when all ye geniuses have the country up and running and the celtic tiger back ye can build all those super highways you want


  • #190
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,576 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    20 years ago it was Limerick County Council on their own, NRA didn't even exist. NRA didn't start planning schemes until ones that went to construction from about '95 onwards.


  • #191
    lordofthedung
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭lordofthedung


    MYOB wrote: »
    20 years ago it was Limerick County Council on their own, NRA didn't even exist. NRA didn't start planning schemes until ones that went to construction from about '95 onwards.

    Well it just goes to show you that the NRA are worse or just as bad as the county councils, why do they think that whats there cannot be improved on without waiting for the super highways to be build, these are only good for passing out all the bad drivers you have in this country, the people that think they have a divine right to drive on the white line at 50 to 80 on a 100 km road with about 2 lanes inside them on their left. Its like the politicians do nothing and the country might improve, do nothing with the roads and when enough people have killed themselves then they will have justification for what they want.


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  • #192
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,576 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The NRA are unwilling to spend money upgrading a road that is planned to be bypassed because they'll be slaughted in the local area by the press/opposition councillors/etc for "wasting money". They've thrown a few sticking plasters down (Enfield Bypass comes to mind) but even that is rare.


  • #193
    lordofthedung
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭lordofthedung


    I would have gone along with you 20 years ago, we should have borrowed heavily then build a 3+3 from Cork to Derry and this would have made the country very small.
    However now we are broke in very serious trouble and will have the IMF here shortly, so one of these days we will not be able to borrow money to keep the country afloat not to mind building your super 2+2, do you know we are borrowing €60,000,000 per day to feed the country. I am thinking the most of you are young and I do hope you will not have to leave this country to make a living, therfore I urge you to think carefully about what these people are doing in your name especially remembering what went on in the last 10-15 years and try and get them to make good decisions based on value for money and the common good not just the good of the few.
    But going back to the N21 and the route these days with traffic decreasing at an alarming rate it does not support a dual carriage from Adare to NCW but if you want to build a dual carriage then they should think about putting this road on the Foynes side of the present N21 and link in the N69 into it. There are many companies in the Foynes Askeaton area including the Foynes port and these need very good roads to link them to the national grid, where they are proposing putting the road has not got the same volume of companies at all. However what these people (NRA and Co. Councils) want to do is to build another major road along the Shannon in the future, (as Limerick Co. Council said when asked why they short listed the final three routes and not taken Foynes into brief "FOYNES PORT WAS NOT IN THE DESIGN BRIEF AND THEREFORE WAS NOT CONSIDERED") this to me is a terrible waste of money,


  • #194
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,576 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    -The cost difference for 2+2 is negligable
    -The presence of a central barrier is an inherent deterrant to ribbon development along the route, protecting it from needing future upgrades
    -If we don't build at least 2+2, we'll be upgrading it before we've finished paying for it.


  • #195
    runway16
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭runway16


    What a load of ranting and bloody raving! "Super Highway"? Is that even a type of road??

    All a 2+2 is a standard single carriageway with 2 running lanes on each side, instead of 1 lane plus one hard shoulder. It has a small barrier down the middle. Junctions are just like on normal roads, not like on motorways.

    That is the only bloody difference. I sincerely suggest you aquaint yourself with what is actually being proposed, what road types there actually are, and then come back and debate the point.

    This is all just bull**** from vested interests who own a ****ing petrol station somewhere along the current route and try to bamboozle us with nonsense "facts"and doom scenarios.

    We all know FF are **** and made mistakes, but that doesnt mean the NRA are just as bad. All things considered, they havent done a bad job so far.


  • #196
    mk6705
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 721 ✭✭✭mk6705


    runway16 wrote: »
    What a load of ranting and bloody raving! "Super Highway"? Is that even a type of road??

    All a 2+2 is a standard single carriageway with 2 running lanes on each side, instead of 1 lane plus one hard shoulder. It has a small barrier down the middle. Junctions are just like on normal roads, not like on motorways.

    That is the only bloody difference. I sincerely suggest you aquaint yourself with what is actually being proposed, what road types there actually are, and then come back and debate the point.

    This is all just bull**** from vested interests who own a ****ing petrol station somewhere along the current route and try to bamboozle us with nonsense "facts"and doom scenarios.

    We all know FF are **** and made mistakes, but that doesnt mean the NRA are just as bad. All things considered, they havent done a bad job so far.

    Defniniton of Dual Carraigeway:
    Dual carriageway - a highway divided down the middle by a barrier that separates traffic going in different directions.

    Definition of Single Carraigeway:
    A single carriageway (British English) or undivided highway (North American English) is a road with no physical separation — central reservation (British English) or median (North American English) — between opposing flows of traffic.

    Therefore, 2+2 is, with good reason a type of dual carraigeway. It doesn't have to be motorway standard you know.


  • #197
    lordofthedung
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭lordofthedung


    runway16 wrote: »
    What a load of ranting and bloody raving! "Super Highway"? Is that even a type of road??

    All a 2+2 is a standard single carriageway with 2 running lanes on each side, instead of 1 lane plus one hard shoulder. It has a small barrier down the middle. Junctions are just like on normal roads, not like on motorways.

    That is the only bloody difference. I sincerely suggest you aquaint yourself with what is actually being proposed, what road types there actually are, and then come back and debate the point.

    This is all just bull**** from vested interests who own a ****ing petrol station somewhere along the current route and try to bamboozle us with nonsense "facts"and doom scenarios.

    We all know FF are **** and made mistakes, but that doesnt mean the NRA are just as bad. All things considered, they havent done a bad job so far.


    I am afraid the vested interests are the people pulling the NRA strings just like the developers, builders of the last 15 years, they got planning permission to build houses in the middle of nowhere where they were not needed now whether you believe or not you and your children will be paying back for them unless of course you want to default on our NATIONAL DEBT, the people who builds these roads are the people who benefit most from the NRA.

    You are not listening to me I have no problem with building good roads I think they are vital for the country I have a problem with where they are build, I think the route should be chosen very carefully to take into account all the things that matter not just the money that these developers can make out of them, for too long we in this country have sat back and watched ourselves being taken for a ride by FF and its vested interest friends developers, builders, bankers, road builders and big business all in their own interests not the interests of all the people in this little island.
    Please do not insult me by giving me lines like “This is all just bull**** from vested interests who own a ****ing petrol station somewhere along the current route and try to bamboozle us with nonsense "facts"and doom scenarios. “
    I have no interest in petrol stations although the NRA should have when they build the motorways now they have no petrol stations and nowhere to go to the toilet and the AA are very busy rescuing people that have run out of petrol, now there is an opportunity for you to set up a service area off the Ms, watch and see how the NRA will pay over the odds with your money if you are working to have these service areas retrofitted, that will be another report from the controller and auditor general next year just like how we spent €33,000,000 on advisor on how we fix the banks, €9,000,000 going to a firm of solicitors in Dublin I wonder who were they friends with in FF. All I want to see is your and everybody elses money spent properly to give us value for money by putting good roads where they are needed not where the vested interests want them.


  • #198
    runway16
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭runway16


    lordofthedung wrote: »
    I am afraid the vested interests are the people pulling the NRA strings just like the developers, builders of the last 15 years, they got planning permission to build houses in the middle of nowhere where they were not needed now whether you believe or not you and your children will be paying back for them unless of course you want to default on our NATIONAL DEBT, the people who builds these roads are the people who benefit most from the NRA.

    You are not listening to me I have no problem with building good roads I think they are vital for the country I have a problem with where they are build, I think the route should be chosen very carefully to take into account all the things that matter not just the money that these developers can make out of them, for too long we in this country have sat back and watched ourselves being taken for a ride by FF and its vested interest friends developers, builders, bankers, road builders and big business all in their own interests not the interests of all the people in this little island.
    Please do not insult me by giving me lines like “This is all just bull**** from vested interests who own a ****ing petrol station somewhere along the current route and try to bamboozle us with nonsense "facts"and doom scenarios. “
    I have no interest in petrol stations although the NRA should have when they build the motorways now they have no petrol stations and nowhere to go to the toilet and the AA are very busy rescuing people that have run out of petrol, now there is an opportunity for you to set up a service area off the Ms, watch and see how the NRA will pay over the odds with your money if you are working to have these service areas retrofitted, that will be another report from the controller and auditor general next year just like how we spent €33,000,000 on advisor on how we fix the banks, €9,000,000 going to a firm of solicitors in Dublin I wonder who were they friends with in FF. All I want to see is your and everybody elses money spent properly to give us value for money by putting good roads where they are needed not where the vested interests want them.



    So we dont need a good road between Limerick and Tralee (and hence from Dublin, Galway etc via Limerick to Tralee)?

    This is just nonsense.

    As you should know, the NRA no longer build the 2 lane standard road type on National primary routes because is it less safe than a divided road. A 2+2 road just re-allocates the road space so there are 2 lanes on each side, allowing safe overtaking. It is by no means a "super highway" (whatever that is).

    Unfortunatly, you didnt such a good job distinguishing your arguments from the "vested interest and doom scenarios" because that is exactly what you spoke about in your reply.

    These roads are needed because they link the major centres of the country. Name me one single country who would do things any different and i'll buy you a pint!

    This talk of default on national debt etc is irrelevant. The roads programme has been massively cut back and only what is vital will be going ahead for the forseable future.

    Also irrelevant is talk about planning permission for housing estates and all this rubbish. We can all pick out things wrong in government, but it doesnt mean that everything proposed by every single agency is wrong. This is just someone who is very angry at what has gone on (and arent we all!!) not being able to see the wood from the trees and seeing what makes sense. A proper transport system makes sense and in a country with such low population densities, roads are the only way to cater for that for much of the country.

    Do you remember in the 80's when nothing was getting done in this country? The roads were crap, everything was crap. I suggest you think back, because allowing that to continue is no way to get this country back on its feet.


  • #199
    lordofthedung
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭lordofthedung


    runway16 wrote: »
    So we dont need a good road between Limerick and Tralee (and hence from Dublin, Galway etc via Limerick to Tralee)?

    This is just nonsense.

    As you should know, the NRA no longer build the 2 lane standard road type on National primary routes because is it less safe than a divided road. A 2+2 road just re-allocates the road space so there are 2 lanes on each side, allowing safe overtaking. It is by no means a "super highway" (whatever that is).

    Unfortunatly, you didnt such a good job distinguishing your arguments from the "vested interest and doom scenarios" because that is exactly what you spoke about in your reply.

    These roads are needed because they link the major centres of the country. Name me one single country who would do things any different and i'll buy you a pint!

    This talk of default on national debt etc is irrelevant. The roads programme has been massively cut back and only what is vital will be going ahead for the forseable future.

    Also irrelevant is talk about planning permission for housing estates and all this rubbish. We can all pick out things wrong in government, but it doesnt mean that everything proposed by every single agency is wrong. This is just someone who is very angry at what has gone on (and arent we all!!) not being able to see the wood from the trees and seeing what makes sense. A proper transport system makes sense and in a country with such low population densities, roads are the only way to cater for that for much of the country.

    Do you remember in the 80's when nothing was getting done in this country? The roads were crap, everything was crap. I suggest you think back, because allowing that to continue is no way to get this country back on its feet.


    As I told you before I have nothing against good roads I also told you they are vital for the country, it’s where they build them that I have a problem with, they should speak and discuss with the locals much more before going ahead, that’s all. Look at what is happening with the stretch of the M7 between Birdhill & Limerick the road is sinking into the bog; the locals advised them not to take that route. You seem to be of the opinion that as long as they build the roads it does not matter whether it makes any sense at all where they put them this to me is wrong if putting a 2+2 or any type of road where it can kill two birds with one road than that is the option they should take.

    Sweden has retrofitted 1000kms of road with 2+1 and they are much better off then us and America and Germany has built 2+1 where they can not afford the motorways and volumes would not warrant them . But sure who are we only the biggest country in the world we pay our leader much more than America so we must be.


    In the 80s I would regularly do Dublin-Limerick in 2 hours OK I had to take some risk because the assholes doing 40 – 50MPH would not keep inside the yellow line to let me pass and we are still practically on the same road today.


  • #200
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,576 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    2+1 is used in Sweden on roads with traffic levels we'd use a narrow S2 on. It *does not work* on the traffic volumes we use 2+2 for. We trialled them here and they've been catastrophic.

    2+2 *is not a motorway*. It is a low grade DC and costs virtually no more than WS2 - which has been our minimum standard for national primaries for 15 years or more. It has replaced WS2 so is now the minimum standard we will build.

    But as you assume the NRA don't plan roads, of course you're going to ignore the result of extensive trialling.

    And the bog problem is poor implementation not bad routing, that is all. "Locals" are either parochial or NIMBYs, there is a damn good reason you don't listen to them and instead build things on proper engineering, proper transport mapping, etc.


  • #201
    lordofthedung
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭lordofthedung


    MYOB wrote: »
    2+1 is used in Sweden on roads with traffic levels we'd use a narrow S2 on. It *does not work* on the traffic volumes we use 2+2 for. We trialled them here and they've been catastrophic.

    2+2 *is not a motorway*. It is a low grade DC and costs virtually no more than WS2 - which has been our minimum standard for national primaries for 15 years or more. It has replaced WS2 so is now the minimum standard we will build.

    But as you assume the NRA don't plan roads, of course you're going to ignore the result of extensive trialling.

    And the bog problem is poor implementation not bad routing, that is all. "Locals" are either parochial or NIMBYs, there is a damn good reason you don't listen to them and instead build things on proper engineering, proper transport mapping, etc.

    Well I am glad to see the country is is good hands with all that knowledge and confidence you will have the country back to full employment in no time go to it boys and girls. Also I must tell you NRA do not do the planning it is the local councils that do the planning as long as they are to NRA guidelines thats all all that matters to the NRA.

    regards


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