2014 Cups & Shields

FixdePitchmark · 07-09-2014 11:35pm

I'd love to see them play.

SaveOurLyric · 07-09-2014 11:47pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Sorry - new to things here.

How could somebody be that much of a favourite for what is a handicapped competition ?

Enough people in the know, putting money on them I guess. The know being that there are five 12 handcappers who can play to about 7, and five 15 handicappers who can play to about 10. A ten shot advantage over real handicaps is difficult to overcome even for teams than are only hooky by 6 or 7 shots per pairing.

SaveOurLyric · 07-09-2014 11:50pm

Sir montygom wrote: »

I'm thinking of lumping on them even at 1/2......I've seen them play and any of their pairs on their team wouldn't look out of place in glen eagles ! Bookies have been burnt before by these lads......

Good sting if it is.....
An interclub team medal being a badge of shame for both players and club, it wouldnt surprise me if some group decided they may as well just make a few quid out of it at the bookie's expense.

PARlance · 08-09-2014 9:36am

Wouldn't be surprised to see them getting into the final with another big win and then seeing them lose.

They should be 1/4 or 1/5 in the final at that rate. The opposition about 7/2.... That'd be a proper sting... Throwing the final.

FixdePitchmark · 08-09-2014 9:41am

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Enough people in the know, putting money on them I guess. The know being that there are five 12 handcappers who can play to about 7, and five 15 handicappers who can play to about 10. A ten shot advantage over real handicaps is difficult to overcome even for teams than are only hooky by 6 or 7 shots per pairing.

Had ambitions to play in one of these "things".
A little bit of me died today

But a straight must win now and again. Any winners around here ?

PARlance · 08-09-2014 9:44am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Had ambitions to play in one of these "things".
A little bit of me died today

But a straight must win now and again. Any winners around here ?

Depends how you define a "straight" Fix.
I think a straight / non bandit in these is someone with JUST 2 or 3 shots to spare.

Ben1977 · 08-09-2014 9:49am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Had ambitions to play in one of these "things".
A little bit of me died today

But a straight must win now and again. Any winners around here ?

You'd be perfect for Jimmy Bruen Fix. Combined HC of 17 with the lowest being 6. Foursomes so you only have to worry about ever second shot.:D

FixdePitchmark · 08-09-2014 10:00am

Someone said to me Ben.

I'd have to just hit me good ones.

cairny · 08-09-2014 10:00am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Had ambitions to play in one of these "things".
A little bit of me died today

But a straight must win now and again. Any winners around here ?

We've had a couple of good runs, narrowly lost to eventual winners a few years ago. You can fight the bandits honestly if you have a few players who have got cut in the year of the comp. it goes on last years handicap so a guy who was 15 but gets down to say 11 playing with a 12 are a very strong team.

There's nothing in golf like the buzz of playing for club team. Most clubs put up honest teams, all matches in our section this year were decided. 3-2.

Winning it outright straight is a tall order but don't let that put you off playing in it, to me it's the best part of playing golf.

mafc · 08-09-2014 11:07am

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Had ambitions to play in one of these "things".
A little bit of me died today

But a straight must win now and again. Any winners around here ?

Was fortunate enough to be part of Provincial Towns Cup winning team this year. Great buzz

Sir montygom · 08-09-2014 11:43am

Spanish point are a club of 200 or so members going for back to back all Ireland purcells... Pressure might get to them as back to back is a big ask!!!' Might take value punt on an underdog!!!

Their captains prize was on two weeks ago.... Winner (Purcell player) shot 3 over in all most unplayable windy conditions to win it ... 2nd another Purcell member shot 1 over....... For the rest of the years comps these guys can only shoot 30 or so points🙈

A New earth · 08-09-2014 11:59am

Sir montygom wrote: »

Spanish point are a club of 200 or so members going for back to back all Ireland purcells... Pressure might get to them as back to back is a big ask!!!' Might take value punt on an underdog!!!

Their captains prize was on two weeks ago.... Winner (Purcell player) shot 3 over in all most unplayable windy conditions to win it ... 2nd another Purcell member shot 1 over....... For the rest of the years comps these guys can only shoot 30 or so points&#55357;&#56904;

Can the GUI do nothing about that club that is destroying the honest/houourable name of this great game?

MashedPotatoe · 08-09-2014 1:33pm

irishgolfer wrote: »

Cant wait for Paddy Power to open the book on Peirce Purcell for 2014. Judging by everything that is being said about Spanish Point here, looks like it could be easy money!

PP are no fools Spanish Point are 1/2 . I wouldn't mind but I was watching this tread and was saving my money up to have a cut on them. I was expecting evens or 7/4 by the way lads were talking on this 1/2 is a joke!!! Anyway any other sure things out there?

thebigbandit · 08-09-2014 1:34pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Had ambitions to play in one of these "things".
A little bit of me died today

But a straight must win now and again. Any winners around here ?

I can't believe everyone here is so nieve, any team in any GUI finals from junior cup on has a few shots in the pocket..granted Spanish point seem to have taken it to my level but I guarentee anyone watches finals will see plenty of people playing well above they're handicap.

Sir montygom · 08-09-2014 1:45pm

thebigbandit wrote: »

I can't believe everyone here is so nieve, any team in any GUI finals from junior cup on has a few shots in the pocket..granted Spanish point seem to have taken it to my level but I guarentee anyone watches finals will see plenty of people playing well above they're handicap.

Sure.... They are still all still all scrubbers and will feel the pressure as much as any of the finalist playing ... Maybe even more ... Probably value in backing the outsiders.!! Should be great weekend of entertainment for anyone going to watch the finals!

scrubber72 · 08-09-2014 1:53pm

Sir montygom wrote: »

Sure.... They are still all still all scrubbers and will feel the pressure as much as any of the finalist playing ... Maybe even more ... Probably value in backing the outsiders.!! Should be great weekend of entertainment for anyone going to watch the finals!

Eh low blow......

scrubber72 · 08-09-2014 1:54pm

Sir montygom wrote: »

Sure.... They are still all still all scrubbers and will feel the pressure as much as any of the finalist playing ... Maybe even more ... Probably value in backing the outsiders.!! Should be great weekend of entertainment for anyone going to watch the finals!

Eh low blow......

Russman · 08-09-2014 2:05pm

PARlance wrote: »

Depends how you define a "straight" Fix.
I think a straight / non bandit in these is someone with JUST 2 or 3 shots to spare.

This ^^^

How to define a bandit or a straight, that's the question, especially in matchplay and even more in foresomes.

Put it this way, in something like, for example Metro, which has a lower limit of 9, chances are that if you shoot 9 over par in a match in the latter stages, you'll probably lose, and badly. Did your opponent have a good day or is he a bandit ? its very grey. BUT by the same token you do also see plenty of matches where a guy is way over par and wins, especially in the lower handicap singles events and foresomes events of any type.

Certainly not all teams are bandits, not even all winning teams, but most will have a few guys who carry a couple of shots, are they bandits though ? What is a bandit ? IMO its a bit naïve to expect any team of PP players to all have to play their best to play to 12, 15 or whatever the handicaps are.

I'd agree there is something wrong when you have a situation where you know you need players who can easily beat their handicap to be competitive. Whether that "something" is the system or players' attitudes, who knows.

charlieIRL · 08-09-2014 2:09pm

Less of the auld gambling chat lads. Thanks.

FixdePitchmark · 08-09-2014 2:15pm

So if you are a player who is as low as they can go
is there any point.

Only point people are missing is.

It is last year's hcaps. So lads improving have shots be design.

thebigbandit · 08-09-2014 2:29pm

scrubber72 wrote: »

Eh low blow......

Haha the winners will be king of the scrubbers!!! Coolatin will be tough to beat if my source is right they every bit as good as the Clare men..we will be talking about a different team of bandits next month!! Long live the bandits!!

cairny · 08-09-2014 2:30pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

So if you are a player who is as low as they can go
is there any point.

Only point people are missing is.

It is last year's hcaps. So lads improving have shots be design.

There is, I find I play better than my handicap in the matches and I resent every single 0.1 I incur.

You tend to raise your game, it really helps your own game too, you learn to dig out a score.

Don't let the bad apples rob you of a great golf experience.

Russman · 08-09-2014 2:33pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

So if you are a player who is as low as they can go
is there any point.

Only point people are missing is.

It is last year's hcaps. So lads improving have shots be design.

Of course there is. One or two shots is nothing in a match in terms of where you might have left a couple out there. Its not a case of loads of clubs having mid handicaps playing like senior cup players, there might be one or two, but having a good run in an interclub event is a brilliant experience, even if you lose eventually in the latter stages. The better player doesn't always win in matchplay.

There's never going to be an absolutely even playing field, unless you had a comp for every handicap digit and only for those who are at that limit for 3 years or more, or something.
Lads improving - isn't that true of every sport though ? There's always someone better, younger coming through. OK, arguably you could make it current handicap rather than last year's, but I'm not sure that's a good idea, it would only encourage sandbagging if a guy knew he'd lose his place on a team mid-season by getting cut.

There's so many potential scenarios that its impossible to cover every base, you could get drawn against a guy who was off scratch most of his life but has drifted out to 5 or 6 - he may not play like a scratch anymore but he'll still have the know how that's very hard to quantify and will help him in a match against another inexperienced 5 handicapper.

FixdePitchmark · 08-09-2014 2:57pm

Look. Will play . Love the heat of the battle.

But earlier on. Lads were saying that lads have 4/5/6 shots in the bag.

That is totally off the wall stuff.

In fact it could be just a bit demoralising for your game.

opinionated3 · 08-09-2014 3:02pm

Played against Spanish point earlier this year. Demoralising is the word

FixdePitchmark · 08-09-2014 3:14pm

opinionated3 wrote: »

Played against Spanish point earlier this year. Demoralising is the word

There you go.

Whilst noble and all that. Not everyone is in to moral victories.

Lads having shots in the bag that you have on the card is not sport.

If you are playing your heart out. Go to that and get slaughtered by a bandit.
May not be fun .

I'd actually love the challenge. But, can see it putting lads off.

Russman · 08-09-2014 3:20pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Look. Will play . Love the heat of the battle.

But earlier on. Lads were saying that lads have 4/5/6 shots in the bag.

That is totally off the wall stuff.

In fact it could be just a bit demoralising for your game.

Definitely play on.

If you come up against a juggernaut team that have 4/5/6 shots in the bag, write it off to bitter experience. There's not THAT many teams like that, for sure there are some, no denying that, and they'll likely be the winners of the mid range handicap events. But, unfortunately there's also no denying you need to be able to be pretty good off your handicap to compete in events that have handicap limits. PP is notorious for it regardless.

Don't read too much into it though, what's the difference between being beaten by a guy off the same handicap as you who happens to have a good day, or a guy off the same handicap who is carrying 4 shots ? You won't really know which is the truth until someone says to you ".....oh him, sure he should be off X......"

It could be you having that good day and all his team mates will say you're the one who's the bandit.
Club golfers rarely admit to losing to bad golf, we always hear "...yeah, we lost on 15 but they were only 3 over par, how can we compete with that ?....", yet we rarely hear someone say "......I lost on 14 but I played sh1te, simples....."

Russman · 08-09-2014 3:35pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

There you go.

Whilst noble and all that. Not everyone is in to moral victories.

Lads having shots in the bag that you have on the card is not sport.

If you are playing your heart out. Go to that and get slaughtered by a bandit.
May not be fun .

I'd actually love the challenge. But, can see it putting lads off.

True enough, but I'd have to say I've genuinely rarely, seen anyone play well and lose in interclub. If someone actually plays "well" they have a great chance of beating anybody, even a bandit.
It did happen to me once, many moons ago in a Metro semi final, 2 over par when I lost on 14th, I opened up par, par, par, par, birdie, par and was 4 down after 6. It happens, but hey.

Interclub really is, IMO, one of the best parts of playing golf, especially in the weekend events like Junior and Senior Cup where you're meeting guys year after year and catching up etc. Its a great experience. Some clubs take "winning" to the extreme and it'd be a shame for them to ruin it for the vast majority. Its like there's a certain amount of banditry accepted but you're not supposed to take the p1ss with it like some are now supposed to be doing !:)

dvemail · 08-09-2014 4:02pm

It's a shame really, as any club that wants to win the likes of the Purcell or the Bruen feel like they need junior cup standard golfers playing off 12 or more to compete.
Every event in the cups & shields has a dark corner. The Junior Cup always has lads who could could play off at least 3 or less but refuse to go down. While in the Barton and Senior Cup some clubs have a massive recruitment drive in getting the best players in the area to play for them.

SaveOurLyric · 08-09-2014 7:25pm

PARlance wrote: »

I think a straight / non bandit in these is someone with JUST 2 or 3 shots to spare.

How do you reason this ? Unless it is someone on the downward handicap slope, and more arent than are, then someone with any shots to spare is a cheat. Making his team a cheating one.

SaveOurLyric · 08-09-2014 7:30pm

Russman wrote: »

Put it this way, in something like, for example Metro, which has a lower limit of 9, chances are that if you shoot 9 over par in a match in the latter stages, you'll probably lose, and badly. Did your opponent have a good day or is he a bandit ? its very grey.

It isnt grey at all. The probability in that case is strongly that he is a bandit. If the probability is high of you being beaten when playing to your handicap, then you are playing against teams of bandits. The correct odds are that if you play to your handicap, then you should win. But as you note, this is in the latter stages, showing that it is the cheating teams that reach the latter stages. The final being likely a contest between the most crooked golfers a club could assemble.

Ciaranra · 08-09-2014 7:53pm

Dont agree with alot of this.
So im a bandit because i was part of the prov towns winning team this year.
I play off 10 only played 3 singles comp this year because all my focus was on practice.
Playing the the away course 3 times in 2 weeks i had no time to concentrate on my handicap just how well i needed to play

mafc · 08-09-2014 8:38pm

Ciaranra wrote: »

Dont agree with alot of this.
So im a bandit because i was part of the prov towns winning team this year.
I play off 10 only played 3 singles comp this year because all my focus was on practice.
Playing the the away course 3 times in 2 weeks i had no time to concentrate on my handicap just how well i needed to play

+1 on this.

Shocking some of the attitude here, not a bandit & never was........

PARlance · 08-09-2014 8:47pm

mafc wrote: »

+1 on this.

Shocking some of the attitude here, not a bandit & never was........

I certainly think that an awful lot of club teams are picked and made up of lads that can "comfortably" play to their HC with a few improving (current year) golfers thrown in.
Not all, but I've heard enough first & second hand stuff to believe it's fairly prevalent.

But yes, I do think it's harsh on honest golfers that give their all, who have probably played well in trails and gotten onto teams. And for the honest clubs that don't promote or accommodate banditry. It's harsh for them to be tarred with the same brush!

Are there lads on your team that are a little bit more "comfortable" than you mafc?

SaveOurLyric · 08-09-2014 8:47pm

Ciaranra wrote: »

Dont agree with alot of this.
So im a bandit because i was part of the prov towns winning team this year.

Not necessarily. But more likely than most. And also likely that the win was achieved, even if not you, with the contribution of bandits.

Ciaranra wrote: »

I play off 10 only played 3 singles comp this year because all my focus was on practice.

This does increase the probability that your handicap does not reflect your true playing ability.

Ciaranra wrote: »

Playing the the away course 3 times in 2 weeks i had no time to concentrate on my handicap just how well i needed to play

Granted what you are doing is not outside the rules, so I wouldnt be critical of you. But it is the rules that are the problem, and I am critical of them. The rules permitting what you are doing is what devalues and sullies team golf.

SaveOurLyric · 08-09-2014 8:49pm

mafc wrote: »

+1 on this.

Shocking some of the attitude here, not a bandit & never was........

A general observation, and not aimed at you personally. But no golfer is a bandit in his own mind.

thebigbandit · 08-09-2014 8:52pm

i am a bandit

Rikand · 08-09-2014 8:52pm

I should easily be off scratch, but I'm very comfortable off 5...

SaveOurLyric · 08-09-2014 8:54pm

PARlance wrote: »

But yes, I do think it's harsh on honest golfers that give their all, who have probably played well in trails and gotten onto teams. And for the honest clubs that don't promote or accommodate banditry. It's harsh for them to be tarred with the same brush!

I do think it harsh also, and thats why it bugs me. And there are far more honest, players, teams, and clubs that do not field bandit teams, than ones that do. But the honest ones bomb out in the qualifiers or first rounds.
I am tarring all the semi-finalist with the same brush though. You simply cannot get their with legitimate handicaps. And I am speaking from direct knowledge of golfers I know and play with, and the reprehensible behaviour of my own club in this regard. The pennants over the bar embarrass me.

Ciaranra · 08-09-2014 8:57pm

I played 3 times during prov towns got cut .4
Played 3 times since looking to get cut but ended up getting two .1 in a medal and presidents

PARlance · 08-09-2014 9:02pm

Ciaranra wrote: »

I played 3 times during prov towns got cut .4
Played 3 times since looking to get cut but ended up getting two .1 in a medal and presidents

A long way off your goal so....

Ciaranra wrote: »

My handicap is 10.1 my goal this year 12.1

Ciaranra · 08-09-2014 9:04pm

That was a piss take

Sir montygom · 08-09-2014 9:16pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

A general observation, and not aimed at you personally. But no golfer is a bandit in his own mind.

The bandits think that there is bigger bandits than themselves out there and think that their own hc is justified so as to be able to compete !!!! It's probably an inner fear of being a loser that they are trying to hide!!

FixdePitchmark · 08-09-2014 9:17pm

So Ciarana there plays off his last years handicap ?

No matter what he did this year is irrelevant.

If you don't mind me picking you out Ciarana. Just as an example.

Is fair to say you are comfortable off 10 ?

PARlance · 08-09-2014 9:22pm

Ciaranra wrote: »

That was a piss take

That's why I gave a little

Onto the next item....

Ciaranra wrote: »

Last 20 rounds on golf shot
par 3 scoring 3.3
Par 4 scoring 4.5
Par 5 scoring 5.1

You do know that those stats (from 2 months ago) would suggest that you are playing off a higher handicap than you should be

Assuming a standard layout
4 Par 3's @ 3.3 = 1.2 over
10 Par 4's @ 4.5 = 5 over
4 Par 5's @ 5.1 = 0.4 over

You're averaging 6.6 over there...playing off a HC off 10
There's only one word for that in my book.

SaveOurLyric · 08-09-2014 9:25pm

PARlance wrote: »

That's why I gave a little

Onto the next item....

You do know that those stats (from 2 months ago) would suggest that you are playing off a higher handicap than you should be

Assuming a standard layout
4 Par 3's @ 3.3 = 1.2 over
10 Par 4's @ 4.5 = 5 over
4 Par 5's @ 5.1 = 0.4 over

You're averaging 6.6 over there...playing off a HC off 10
There's only one word for that in my book.

Two words really:

Four Handicapper.

SEORG · 08-09-2014 9:25pm

My lowest last yr was 13, I'm down to 8...I'm certainly not a bandit but I did play Purcell this year and was off 9.

Ciaranra · 08-09-2014 9:27pm

Played very well this year to 10 looking to get Hc down but if its not happening i still qualify for next year and hope to be a better golfer

FixdePitchmark · 08-09-2014 9:30pm

Ciaranra wrote: »

Played very well this year to 10 looking to get Hc down but if its not happening i still qualify for next year and hope to be a better golfer

Ciarana fair play you being 100 % honest.

Great insight.

Can I ask were you encouraged to not play in qualifying comps.

Just to show you how daft things are I'm off 6.8.
But my stats are 0.1 worse then you.

You had a 6 over in pga . Great score.
And you can go again next year.

Ciaranra · 08-09-2014 9:30pm

PARlance wrote: »

That's why I gave a little

Onto the next item....

You do know that those stats (from 2 months ago) would suggest that you are playing off a higher handicap than you should be

Assuming a standard layout
4 Par 3's @ 3.3 = 1.2 over
10 Par 4's @ 4.5 = 5 over
4 Par 5's @ 5.1 = 0.4 over

You're averaging 6.6 over there...playing off a HC off 10
There's only one word for that in my book.

Yea had a great year but practice games you dont get cut for

2014 Cups & Shields

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