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Free travel passes not to be touched in budget - Minister Burton

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    #62
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Thats another thing the Minister should do, end the discrimination .


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    #63
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Indeed if people live in the proscribed areas they must possess a photo-pass card or their pass is not valid!

    but for station staff to threaten people from rural areas that they will confiscate their pass unless they can show a passport or some other photo id is a despicable thing to do. This is what Hilly Bill is referring to in their comment above, it is also referring almost directly to a closed thread so I will discuss it no further here.


    Its not despicable to to retain a pass if they think its being misused. I was refering to an incident i witnessed myself where a chap caused a scene just because he heard someone else being asked for id. This chap was a pass holder imself and clearly in the right frame of mind as he went on for ages complaining so there was no mental issue for him to have this pass nor was their anything physical wrong with him apart from the weight but thats not an issue to get a free pass.
    These are the type of people that the minister should clamp down on .


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    #64
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Its not despicable to to retain a pass if they think its being misused. I was refering to an incident i witnessed myself where a chap caused a scene just because he heard someone else being asked for id. This chap was a pass holder imself and clearly in the right frame of mind as he went on for ages complaining so there was no mental issue for him to have this pass nor was their anything physical wrong with him apart from the weight but thats not an issue to get a free pass.
    These are the type of people that the minister should clamp down on .

    How would you know what was or was not wrong with him? are you a medical doctor? are you employed by the department to examine people who are being assessed for disability/invalidity etc? Maybe he was a carer for someone else?

    It is despicable to threaten someone in a distressed state who may have just finished a course of chemotherapy or may have been suffering from some other illness.

    It is despicable to use authority in such a way that you bully others less fortunate and deny them something they are entitled to avail of just because you can.

    If the staff had asked for a sample of the pass holders signature to compare with the signature on the pass that should have been an end to it. they would have done their job and the pass would be shown to be held legitimately by the parson named on it. All this talk of what pass holders are claiming or what illness they have is B0llix because neither you nor any transport staff memner is entitled to that information!


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    #65
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Its not despicable to to retain a pass if they think its being misused.

    How are simple folk like Irish Rail or Bus Éireann or BÁC staff and drivers to know if a pass is being misused?

    What criteria is used? is racial profiling being thought? you would think that less foreigners should have free travel so therefore they should be targeted for extra checks.

    You mentioned this persons weight, so should fat people be made prove their entitlement to free travel to transport staff? what if a fat person has other illnesses? Maybe they are an amputee or have cancer?

    again what do you consider to be misuse and how are you going to know if someone is guilty when all you are allowed to ask for is a sample of that persons signature? If pass holders are to be asked for photo id then all passengers MUST be asked for the same otherwise it is discrimination.


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    #66
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    How would you know what was or was not wrong with him? are you a medical doctor? are you employed by the department to examine people who are being assessed for disability/invalidity etc? Maybe he was a carer for someone else?

    It is despicable to threaten someone in a distressed state who may have just finished a course of chemotherapy or may have been suffering from some other illness.

    It is despicable to use authority in such a way that you bully others less fortunate and deny them something they are entitled to avail of just because you can.

    If the staff had asked for a sample of the pass holders signature to compare with the signature on the pass that should have been an end to it. they would have done their job and the pass would be shown to be held legitimately by the parson named on it. All this talk of what pass holders are claiming or what illness they have is B0llix because neither you nor any transport staff memner is entitled to that information!

    Foggy, this chap want caring for anyone. There was no just reason for him to abuse to ticket staff when it wasnt him that was asked for id.
    The person that was asked for id looked confused when this chap started jumping into something that had nothing to do with him in the first place.
    The point you are missing is that unless a pass holder can be civil and orderly when travelling the country then their pass should be removed from them.


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    #67
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    If there is any doubt then its up to the pass holder to prove by any means that they are the rightful holder of the pass. Some even refuse to give the signature. Its no biggy to show anything else with your name on it as id.
    By giving a sample of their signature which should then be compared to the signature on the pass! A spouse/partner must also sign the pass they are allowed travel on and must also give samples of their signature when requested.
    http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/780_Free-Travel.aspx#3
    3.9 EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY

    Whenever a person is travelling using their Free Travel Pass, s/he must produce their Pass for inspection to an Inspector of the Transport Operator or to an Official of the Department of Social Protection, if asked. If considered necessary, the Pass Holder and/or his/her accompanying spouse/civil partner/cohabitant must also produce evidence of their identity by providing a sample of signature to the officials mentioned above. These officials have the authority to confiscate a Free Travel Pass if there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that the Pass is being misused.

    If a passholder lives in Dublin, Cork city, Galway city, Limerick city or Waterford city, and you have already received your Free Travel Pass, you must exchange the Free Travel Pass Photo Voucher for a photo pass at the CIE office in your city.
    (emphasis is mine)
    My point is that there are those that abuse the staff just for asking for id when that person had nothing to do with the other person that was asked.
    Abusing the staff should also be a reason to revoke the pass.
    Nobody should abuse staff in any way but staff should not be overstepping their authority or bullying those less fortunate just because they can wield the threat of keeping the pass or stopping someone getting the hundreds of miles home!


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    #68
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    How are simple folk like Irish Rail or Bus Éireann or BÁC staff and drivers to know if a pass is being misused?

    What criteria is used? is racial profiling being thought? you would think that less foreigners should have free travel so therefore they should be targeted for extra checks.

    You mentioned this persons weight, so should fat people be made prove their entitlement to free travel to transport staff? what if a fat person has other illnesses? Maybe they are an amputee or have cancer?

    again what do you consider to be misuse and how are you going to know if someone is guilty when all you are allowed to ask for is a sample of that persons signature? If pass holders are to be asked for photo id then all passengers MUST be asked for the same otherwise it is discrimination.

    Its easy Foggy, when you present a pass that belongs to someone else or that you cant prove its yours.
    Im not talking about a person having to prove as to why they have the pass.


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    #69
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Foggy, this chap want caring for anyone. There was no just reason for him to abuse to ticket staff when it wasnt him that was asked for id.
    The person that was asked for id looked confused when this chap started jumping into something that had nothing to do with him in the first place.
    The point you are missing is that unless a pass holder can be civil and orderly when travelling the country then their pass should be removed from them.

    this guy must have had the staff members held up against the wall the way you describe it? were security or the Gardai called?


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    #70
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    By giving a sample of their signature which should then be compared to the signature on the pass! A spouse/partner must also sign the pass they are allowed travel on and must also give samples of their signature when requested.
    http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/780_Free-Travel.aspx#3
    (emphasis is mine)

    Nobody should abuse staff in any way but staff should not be overstepping their authority or bullying those less fortunate just because they can wield the threat of keeping the pass or stopping someone getting the hundreds of miles home!

    Nobody is bullying anyone Foggy.


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    #71
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    Its easy Foggy, when you present a pass that belongs to someone else or that you cant prove its yours.
    Im not talking about a person having to prove as to why they have the pass.

    Ah so now it becomes clear, Every pass belongs to someone else unless you can show photo id to prove it is your own? why are all pass holders not forced to comply with Irish Rails new conditions of carriage? why are pass holders being discriminated against? are all holders of tickets paid for by credit card asked for ID to ensure that the credit card was their own?


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    #72
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    this guy must have had the staff members held up against the wall the way you describe it? were security or the Gardai called?

    He wasnt being very nice anyway to the girl but changed his tune when talked to a male member of staff.


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    #73
    markpb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,254 ✭✭✭markpb


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    are all holders of tickets paid for by credit card asked for ID to ensure that the credit card was their own?

    You mean ID like a PIN or signature which can be verified by a member of IR staff?


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    #74
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Ah so now it becomes clear, Every pass belongs to someone else unless you can show photo id to prove it is your own? why are all pass holders not forced to comply with Irish Rails new conditions of carriage? why are pass holders being discriminated against? are all holders of tickets paid for by credit card asked for ID to ensure that the credit card was their own?

    Pass holders are NOT being discriminated against. When you sell your goods, do you care who really owns that money that gets handed over to you?

    whats wrong with showing a bank card or anything else with your name on it if asked? If you had a pass in the name of Foggy Lad and someone asks your for other proof then whats wrong in showing a card of sorts which also has Foggy Lad on it? What if you had lost your pass and it was being used by someone else, would you prefer it to be confiscated by the booking office because the user wouldnt or couldnt produce other id and in return you get your pass back? Or would you prefer if this person copies your signature and continues to use it without fail?


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    #75
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Lets make it very simple and clear.

    All passes should be credit card style passes with Leap RFID and picture and card holder details on the front of the card.

    All pass holders should be required to show the pass (and ID confirmed) when requested by a member of a transport company.

    All pass holders should need to tag-on when using Dublin Bus, Dart, Luas, etc.

    If any pass holders aren't happy with the above rules then they are quiet entitled to return the pass and pay the normal fare instead.

    The FTP is an entitlement, no one pays for it (directly), so the government can set whatever requirements they want in order to have that entitlement.

    That would be a good start, but then more should be done:

    - No peak travel
    - Carer/spouse passes only to be used in conjunction with the spouse/person been cared for.
    - Passes to be renowed every 3/5 years. If the person dies, pass disabled, if the person no longer suffering the disability then pass disabled.
    - Pass only issued for serious disabilities (blind, wheelchair, etc.).


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    #76
    Gatling
    Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Why no Peak travel
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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    #77
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Hilly Bill wrote: »
    He wasnt being very nice anyway to the girl but changed his tune when talked to a male member of staff.

    How exactly was he "not being nice"? did he stick his tongue out or make faces at the "girl"? you must have been pretty close to see all this and also see he had free travel? What exactly was he saying and was he also asked for photo id when he presented his pass?


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    #78
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Gatling wrote: »
    Why no Peak travel

    When FTP was first introduced, it was off peak only.

    The concept of FTP, is to allow elderly and disabled people who don't have other means of transport, to remain an active part of society, being able to travel to shops, church, community center, doctor and family.

    However all of that can be done at off peak. You really don't want to encourage FTP holders to travel at peak times when public transport is already full of fare paying people heading to work.

    It is a reasonable compromise.


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    #79
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    bk wrote: »
    When FTP was first introduced, it was off peak only.

    The concept of FTP, is to allow elderly and disabled people who don't have other means of transport, to remain an active part of society, being able to travel to shops, church, community center, doctor and family.

    However all of that can be done at off peak. You really don't want to encourage FTP holders to travel at peak times when public transport is already full of fare paying people heading to work.

    It is a reasonable compromise.

    Won't the government want a reduction in the amount paid to IÉ & BÉ & BÁC if they are to introduce the peak time restriction once again? This would lead to more cuts in pay and services and more job losses.


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    #80
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #81
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    bk wrote: »
    When FTP was first introduced, it was off peak only.

    The concept of FTP, is to allow elderly and disabled people who don't have other means of transport, to remain an active part of society, being able to travel to shops, church, community center, doctor and family.

    However all of that can be done at off peak. You really don't want to encourage FTP holders to travel at peak times when public transport is already full of fare paying people heading to work.

    It is a reasonable compromise.

    That's not quite true.

    Originally the Free Travel Scheme was restricted as follows with regard to normal scheduled services:

    1) City bus services in Dublin, Cork and Limerick between 0700-0945 and 1630-1830.

    2) Provincial services leaving Dublin, Cork and Limerick between 1600 and 1900 on Fridays within a 20 mile radius of these cities

    Red passes were not subject to any limitations on Dublin city buses.

    No restrictions applied to rail services or other city/provincial bus services.


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    #82
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Won't the government want a reduction in the amount paid to IÉ & BÉ & BÁC if they are to introduce the peak time restriction once again? This would lead to more cuts in pay and services and more job losses.

    Why? If the people were travelling they would be paying their way instead.

    As usual, more doom and gloom hyperbole.


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    #83
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Is it not the general consensus that most free travel journeys are frivolous and made without good reason? If we are to believe this then any restriction or charge should result in a major drop in the numbers using the services resulting in services being reduced pay being cut and jobs lost.


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    #84
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,673 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Is it not the general consensus that most free travel journeys are frivolous and made without good reason? If we are to believe this then any restriction or charge should result in a major drop in the numbers using the services resulting in services being reduced pay being cut and jobs lost.

    or seats being available for paying passengers who have to stand on trains that are full of freeloaders. The capacity reduction coming with IE is going to affect seats available for pass holders so it could lead to them reserving seats more which could be a good thing.


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    #85
    Lepidoptera
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭Lepidoptera


    bk wrote: »

    - No peak travel


    Preventing the elderly and people suffering from disabilities from traveling at times generally required for things like hospital/medical appointments or the like is unwise.

    Some people in this thread also seem to have a very limited view on disabilities and not really understand how difficult it can be to get around or sort out transport under these circumstances. You cannot always just look at someone and know how/if they are disabled. That is not your job but the job of someone in a qualified position and proper setting to determine, and to judge them or the validity of their pass or their reasons for travel based off of the brief appearance of their life that you see has little merit. It is also not as easy to qualify for disability as some people seem to assume. The government does not simply attach this status at random or say to someone, "You do drugs? Have some money and free travel!" A couple of people upthread seem to think that being a drug-addict or junkie automatically qualifies you for disability. This is false, though it is a common misconception slung around. Please consult the paperwork required for a better understanding of the conditions you must meet and the requirements, or talk to someone who works in social welfare :)

    A lot of assumptions being made in this thread that just don't play out with how disability actually works in practice, either from the government stance or the individual level. There is of course some abuse - the system is certainly not perfect, but that does not mean it does not serve as a valuable resource to the community as a whole, nor does it mean that most people abuse it.


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    #86
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 13,003 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    To claim that services would be cut and staff let go if the DSP pass scheme is curtailed is utter bollocks. It wrongfully assumes that services are run primarily to carry passengers with DSP passes which is not the case; it merely lets you on for free when other passengers are required to pay for the same trip. Indeed, to take such a position shows that many have no idea of the worth of what the DSP pass holds, both fiscally and socially.

    One wonders how the pensioners, invalids and their carers manage in other civilised nations actually having to pay for their travel on buses and trains. They must be deprived in comparison.


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    #87
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Lepidoptera wrote: »
    Preventing the elderly and people suffering from disabilities from traveling at times generally required for things like hospital/medical appointments or the like is unwise.

    It's not preventing them. Far from it. It's just asking them to buy an ordinary ticket.


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    #88
    Lepidoptera
    Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭Lepidoptera


    n97 mini wrote: »
    It's not preventing them. Far from it. It's just asking them to buy an ordinary ticket.

    That was poor wording on my part. It doesn't necessarily prevent them from traveling in the strictest sense, but it certainly would prevent people from using the passes for some of the very important things for which the pass is intended - free and easier access they might otherwise lack to things like hospital and medical appointments.

    People are complaining about pass holders using the pass frivolously while simultaneously wanting to limit their ability to use the pass for many of its intended functions.


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    #89
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Lepidoptera wrote: »
    People are complaining about pass holders using the pass frivolously while simultaneously wanting to limit their ability to use the pass for many of its intended functions.

    It's intended function is too buy votes.
    There is no need for free travel for anyone, as I have said before and as many others have said subsidise it but it should not be free.


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    #90
    n97 mini
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Lepidoptera wrote: »
    but it certainly would prevent people from using the passes for some of the very important things for which the pass is intended
    I don't think it would prevent people from travelling. The maximum single fare one most of the Dublin Bus network is €2.80 (assuming the FTP could be used for the return), and on the train it's €4, but most of the hospitals are city centre so it'd be most likely €2.80 even on the train. Even if you have to travel from Galway to Dublin or Cork to Dublin it can be done for less than €15 single.


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    #91
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    n97 mini wrote: »
    I don't think it would prevent people from travelling. The maximum single fare one most of the Dublin Bus network is €2.80 (assuming the FTP could be used for the return), and on the train it's €4, but most of the hospitals are city centre so it'd be most likely €2.80 even on the train. Even if you have to travel from Galway to Dublin or Cork to Dublin it can be done for less than €15 single.
    Is it right that people in rural areas and in regional towns and cities should have to pay much more because of the distances than those in the capital city?


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