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Becoming a Real Runner

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    #3032
    RacoonQueen
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Strange one alright. Maybe you should follow your instincts and take a rest then? And as CL says, stretch, foam roll and do plenty of strength stuff. Try something new, bit of swimming or yoga or pole dancing or something.


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    #3033
    ger664
    Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭ger664


    Defiantly give the dry needling a shot.


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    #3034
    TRR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭TRR


    Ha ha CL takes a month off and now she trying to get you to do likewise. It's all part of her plan to smoke you in 2013 :D
    menoscemo wrote: »
    Just to be pedantic though, pretty much all my miles have been at recovery pace for the last 3 months (and I am not after a 100 marathon club tshirt ;)).

    Body is still working though, even at recovery pace. A couple of weeks with no running and strengthening only could be the way to go. You've tried scans, different physios and stretching so rest is the next (actually probably was the first) logical option. Have never got dry needling myself and acupuncture can be hit or miss (IMO) at the best of times even with a good practitioner. I haven't a single good word to say about chiropractors, have gone to 3, the mrs talked me into going to 2 of them and found it an absolute waste of money. You get a nice tingly feel and get to hear the air between your vertebrae make a nice cracking noise but apart from that absolute pants.


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    #3035
    BeepBeep67
    Registered Users Posts: 8,079 ✭✭✭BeepBeep67


    Hard luck Meno but I can only echo everyone's sentiments already, I'm as OCD as they come when it comes to running and it nearly killed me not to run for 20days, 20hrs and 57mins last Jan - but that was probably the most important 3 week block of training I had last year!


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    #3036
    hf4z6sqo7vjngi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    Having suffered with a very similar injury last year rest is always not the best solution for dealing with it. Specific strength exercises to work the area is what is required. Yes rest is important straight after working the area with a physio but easy running was always suggested two days later, same advice you received from 2 other physios by the look of it.
    My old injury flares up the odd time when i ignore strength exercises but a few stretches and working the area with a baseball/sliotar releases it again. A constant reminder i need to keep an eye on it.


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    #3037
    BTH
    Registered Users Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    To throw a spanner in the works here I'm going to throw in my experience from late 2012. My injury only got diagnosed by the third physio, and despite their best intentions, the strengthening exercises I was given by the second physio were actually making things worse and preventing the injury from clearing up. Not what you'll want to hear at all, but sometimes the strengthening work is making things worse. To be fair, the second physio also dished out a fair amount of dry needling which certainly helped clear up some of the problem so it wasn't a complete waste.


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    #3038
    shels4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    Sorry to hear about the injury, is it down the same side that you pulled up with earlier in the year when we met you on a run?


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    #3039
    W.B. Yeats
    Registered Users Posts: 954 ✭✭✭W.B. Yeats


    Haven't posted in a while but wanted to add my tuppenceworth-
    I think most runners encounter chronic injury at some stage in their running career ( I use the term career loosely:pac:). Some of us get cured and others of us search and search for a long time undergoing different treatment and regimens before finally getting better- often times none the wiser as to why we have recovered.

    Our real concern is what can we do to speed up the chances of recovery- what treatment can we endure that will make recovery more likely and last longer.

    Having spent 6 months last year not running I've come to the conclusion that some running injuries are in essence chronic overuse injuries that really need rest to resolve. But because we have endured the injuries for such long periods of time the degree of inflammation present doesn't allow for recovery when we stop exercising. The body needs to be kickstarted into dealing with the inflammation and then when that is managed the strengthening and rest take over. This approach takes time- and the reality is that the recovery may be due to the rest, it may be spontaneous or it may be the placebo effect or likely a combination of some/all of the above.
    The only thing I am certain of is that continuing to run is not going to speed you along the road to recovery.

    My approach to this would be:
    I would rest- no running,
    I would try to get somebody biomechanically to look at your running- I mean a real practitioner and not some charlatan- over a long period of time- early in a run, at speed, uphill, when fatigued; under a number of different circumstances to see if you are putting too much strain on individual muscle groups. You may need to alter your gait
    I would recommend a doctor specialising in sports medicine looks at you- they may recommend a steroid injection to deal with whatever inflammation is present. The certainty of a diagnosis and treatment plan will be very useful for you and allow you focus mentally on recovery. You need reassurance that you will get better and you need to have confidence in whoever is treating you.
    I would rest again- time may be the best healer for you..... I can't emphasise rest enough!
    There are a number of good Medical Doctor types around Dublin that would see you- some you need a referral for, others are GPs with sports medicine specialties. Get to see somebody that knows what they are doing.

    Best of luck,


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    #3040
    Oisin11178
    Registered Users Posts: 2,496 ✭✭✭Oisin11178


    I suggest you be put down, easier in the long run :-)


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    #3041
    racheljev
    Registered Users Posts: 1,672 ✭✭✭racheljev


    Sorry to hear about the injury again Meno. If you're looking for a sports doctor, I'd give Noel McCaffrey in the Exwell clinic a shout. He's based over near DCU and he's very good. I saw him myself after the stress fracture and I brought my daughter to him after she hurt herself at gymnastics. There's no bull about him and he has physios/athletic therapists attached to the clinic as well. Hope it gets cleared up sooner rather than later for you.


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    #3042
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    W.B. Yeats wrote: »
    Haven't posted in a while but wanted to add my tuppenceworth-
    I think most runners encounter chronic injury at some stage in their running career ( I use the term career loosely:pac:). Some of us get cured and others of us search and search for a long time undergoing different treatment and regimens before finally getting better- often times none the wiser as to why we have recovered.

    Our real concern is what can we do to speed up the chances of recovery- what treatment can we endure that will make recovery more likely and last longer.

    Having spent 6 months last year not running I've come to the conclusion that some running injuries are in essence chronic overuse injuries that really need rest to resolve. But because we have endured the injuries for such long periods of time the degree of inflammation present doesn't allow for recovery when we stop exercising. The body needs to be kickstarted into dealing with the inflammation and then when that is managed the strengthening and rest take over. This approach takes time- and the reality is that the recovery may be due to the rest, it may be spontaneous or it may be the placebo effect or likely a combination of some/all of the above.
    The only thing I am certain of is that continuing to run is not going to speed you along the road to recovery.

    My approach to this would be:
    I would rest- no running,
    I would try to get somebody biomechanically to look at your running- I mean a real practitioner and not some charlatan- over a long period of time- early in a run, at speed, uphill, when fatigued; under a number of different circumstances to see if you are putting too much strain on individual muscle groups. You may need to alter your gait
    I would recommend a doctor specialising in sports medicine looks at you- they may recommend a steroid injection to deal with whatever inflammation is present. The certainty of a diagnosis and treatment plan will be very useful for you and allow you focus mentally on recovery. You need reassurance that you will get better and you need to have confidence in whoever is treating you.
    I would rest again- time may be the best healer for you..... I can't emphasise rest enough!
    There are a number of good Medical Doctor types around Dublin that would see you- some you need a referral for, others are GPs with sports medicine specialties. Get to see somebody that knows what they are doing.

    Best of luck,

    Thanks for that!!
    I was thinking about the whole biomechanical thing and it must be part of the solution. I know that Raighne off boards organises such a course ('champions everywhere' I think). It would certainly be worth looking into doing one of his courses at some stage. I have heard good things about it.


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    #3043
    Solobally8
    Registered Users Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭Solobally8


    I have nothing useful or helpful to add. Just thinking of you and hoping you get this thing sorted soon Meno.


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    #3044
    tHE vAGGABOND
    Registered Users Posts: 6,686 ✭✭✭tHE vAGGABOND


    I have nothing useful or helpful to add. Just thinking of you and hoping you get this thing sorted soon Meno.
    +1 :)


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    #3045
    jcsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,156 ✭✭✭jcsmum


    Solobally8 wrote: »
    I have nothing useful or helpful to add. Just thinking of you and hoping you get this thing sorted soon Meno.
    tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »
    +1 :)

    +1 .... just mind yourself.


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    #3046
    digger2d2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,957 ✭✭✭digger2d2


    Oisin11178 wrote: »
    I suggest you be put down, easier in the long run :-)

    He has already self-embalmed :D;)


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    #3047
    W.B. Yeats
    Registered Users Posts: 954 ✭✭✭W.B. Yeats


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Thanks for that!!
    I was thinking about the whole biomechanical thing and it must be part of the solution. I know that Raighne off boards organises such a course ('champions everywhere' I think). It would certainly be worth looking into doing one of his courses at some stage. I have heard good things about it.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81830687

    think this is the thread


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    #3048
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    W.B. Yeats wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81830687

    think this is the thread

    Yeah, thanks. That's where I got the idea!!


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    #3049
    Dory Dory
    Registered Users Posts: 6,888 ✭✭✭Dory Dory


    Just wishing you well......


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    #3050
    RedRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,606 ✭✭✭RedRunner


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Thanks for that!!
    I was thinking about the whole biomechanical thing and it must be part of the solution. I know that Raighne off boards organises such a course ('champions everywhere' I think). It would certainly be worth looking into doing one of his courses at some stage. I have heard good things about it.

    You should get yourself a pair of these so! http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=EN_NEWS&ACTION=D&SESSION=&RCN=35306


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    #3051
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    RedRunner wrote: »
    You should get yourself a pair of these so! http://cordis.europa.eu/fetch?CALLER=EN_NEWS&ACTION=D&SESSION=&RCN=35306

    Hmm, I am not sure about that. It basically sounds like a Running show with a GPS chip in it??

    Anyways I guess it is time for a little bit of an update on this:
    The pain subsided fairly quickly after the race last Tuesday. The hamstring was fine and I had a little bit of referral in my groin, the pain in the hip disappeared pretty quickly after the race. It really is something that comes and goes quite often and just seems to flair up every once in a while.
    I spent a lot of time analysing and thinking about what happened last Tuesday. My initial thought was to take a 2 week break as everyone suggested. I had been prepared to do this after Berlin except both Physios I visited at the time said there was no need to do so. Mind you I was diagnosed with everything under the sun and none of their treatments worked so this time I was thinking I would give it a go.

    Anyways I emailed the coach (who is also a qualified Physiotherapist) and he suggested it is unlikely that taking a few weeks off would do me any good. Basically I have no detectable muscle (or structural as proved by the MRI) injury that needs any recuperation, therefore It must be a bio mechanical issue I am having. If i take a few weeks off it will only come back. Bear in mind that my two worst flareups came before Berlin (after a 2 week taper) and at the race on new years day (at which point I had ran just 8 miles in 4 days).
    The only solution is to improve my bio mechanics or strengthen the muscles around the effected area.
    I have been doing lots of strengthening exercises since going to see my physio in a bid to do the latter but in fairness I completely slacked off over Christmas, so i got straight back into that. I also finally bought some weights as I was supposed to be using them for my squats and lunges but hadn't actually gotten around to buying them :rolleyes:

    I went to see a new physio on Thursday last with the intention of getting some Acupuncture, however I found out she also has a business in making and selling orthotics, so within 10 seconds of going into her treatment room I was being told i needed orthotics :rolleyes:. I never actually saw or felt a needle.....she did however point out a few issues (she called me a 'biomechanical mess' :p). Basically my left and right side bear no resemblance to each other. My left side is shortened and hunched despite my right leg being shorter. My whole right side up as far as the shoulders is higher than the left and the glutes in the left leg are much bigger than the right ( I can confirm this to be true on self examination). Given that the left leg is the good one, it is very feasible that the right glute is overworking to compensate for the 'lean' to the left...


    Anyways this was enough to convince me to sign up to this workshop in February. http://www.championseverywhere.com/injuryfreerunning hopefully it will correct some of the mess and address what ever issues in my running style that are causing it.

    In the meantime I am going to work away at my strengthening exercises and get back into regular foam rolling. I realised that In the 4 months since I changed physio that I haven't had any sports massage or did any foam rolling. One foam rolling session (ouch) last Friday confirmed that the muscles were indeed a mess but I did get almost instant relief as they felt much better the next day. A very Kind Boardsie also PM'ed me after my last post and offered some free sports therapy (btw he confirmed a lot of the finding of the orthotics maker). I think that regular sports massage and strengthening can hopefully keep the injury at bay for a month and that I'll hopefully get some answers/solutions at the champions Everywhere course (I have heard great reviews on it from several people).


    In the meantime I got back running since last Friday after a whopper 2 days off. I am going to keep most of the miles fairly easy for now. The plan is to up the mileage for this month and the start of next as I have the Donadea 50k to do on the 16th February (6 weeks away). I plan to run this race nice and steady without killing myself (hopefully a sub 4 is feasible), that will leave me 9 weeks of specific Marathon paced training for London.


    Thanks to everyone for all the advice and concern after my last post. It really was much appreciated and helped me get my head around a course of action and remedy.


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    #3052
    pgmcpq
    Registered Users Posts: 1,852 ✭✭✭pgmcpq


    It sounds like you have a plan Meno so ..... this may not be helpful.

    Reading recent updates, this is starting to sound a bit like my hip saga - which also started with a pain in the ass ! I went though some of the same stuff, physio/mri/ortho/cortisone shot, none of which produced a specific diagnosis. I stopped after a bone density test was suggested "because I cannot think of anything else". Could it be overuse ? "Well it does not present as an overuse injury". Btw, I'm not knocking the folks I saw - diagnosis is tough.

    Eventually my knee got hurt (probably because I was compensating for the hip) forcing me off the road completely .... and as a by product of being forced to stop running my hip settled down (still twinges from time to time but I now have some confidence it will not break down).

    I just wonder a bit about how people can tell you one one hand that they have not identified the problem and on the other that continuing to run on it ok. (and does 'ok' = not getting worse or = getting better.

    Best of luck with whatever you do. You've been amazing consistant despite the hip.


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    #3053
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    pgmcpq wrote: »
    Reading recent updates, this is starting to sound a bit like my hip saga - which also started with a pain in the ass !

    Thanks for that PG, intersting stuff.
    I actually don't get hip problems (though my tight hips have almost certainly got something to do with it), I am still at the phase where just get a pian deep in the ass muscle.
    I might sometimes refer to it as my 'hip' problem but only because i don't want to say it is my ass problem ;)


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    #3054
    Clum
    Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭Clum


    Hi Meno.

    I've never actually read your training log before today but with my first 50km run coming up in Donadea I've been looking to see what other runners are doing for it. I saw your post on the facebook group which lead me here.

    Anyway. Sorry to hear about the injury. I had something similar during the summer and hopefully I can offer some advice. I was training for a long distance triathlon and after altering my position on the bike (I lowered my tribars) I ended up hurting what I thought was my ass muscles (that's the actual medical term I believe) during a half iron distance race in the early season. It was embarrasing and I didn't want to see a physio cos I thought I'd sound like a perv asking somebody to massage my ass. Eventually the pain starting interrupting my training and I had to give up the speed work and just plod along. I didn't want to do slow training as the long distance race was a championship race so I went to my physio. Straight away, without even touching me, just by asking me to perform various movements, she recognised the injury was in my hips and not the glutes (even though it always felt like the glutes). I had some dry needling done and felt fine for a few days but I knew more treatment would be needed.

    By the time the race came round I was still struggling with the hip and by overcompensating I had hurt my knee aswell. In the race goodie bag was a product called Ice Power Cold Gel. I rubbed this on my hip and knee the night before the race. It was freezing, verging on painful, but by the time morning came round I felt great. I managed to get through the whole race without any problems (apart from being a bit slower than the rest of the field).

    I used the gel a few more times in the following days and have (thankfully) had no problems with the hip since then. I haven't seen the gel anywhere in Ireland but if you can find any other similar ice cold gels they may be worth trying out.

    Now, as a disclaimer, I have to say I have zero medical qualifications and even though my physio said warm treatment was what I needed I took a gamble on cold treatment and it worked loads better than sleeping with a hot water bottle.

    Hope this helps.


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    #3055
    Larry Brent
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭Larry Brent


    menoscemo wrote: »

    Anyways I emailed the coach (who is also a qualified Physiotherapist) and he suggested it is unlikely that taking a few weeks off would do me any good.

    You might have misunderstood me here. Put is this way...

    Complete rest from running may make you better, may make no difference but will not make you worse.

    Continuing running may make you better, may make no difference and may make you worse.

    Based on the above, if this continues to flare up after you have given the rehabilitation an honest effort, then a complete rest from running would be the logical step to take.

    You are right in saying if there is no structural damage (MRI findings) then continued running cannot be doing further structural damage. So in that case 'ignoring the pain' is fine. But if the outcome of the ignoring the pain/continuing training approach results in you pulling up in races and not running to our potential then a different approach might be warranted and rest is about the only one remaining. So if it flares up again after your rehabilitation has gone well it might be something to consider.


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    #3056
    mithril
    Registered Users Posts: 970 ✭✭✭mithril


    menoscemo wrote: »

    I went to see a new physio on Thursday last with the intention of getting some Acupuncture, however I found out she also has a business in making and selling orthotics, so within 10 seconds of going into her treatment room I was being told i needed orthotics
    I have had good results with orthotics, and I use them now all the time when running on a hard surface.
    However they are expensive, not quite as comfortable as without them on (expect a few blisters), and make the shoe a bit heavier, so I would not go down that route unless you really believe it will make a difference.

    Very few people are bio-mechanically perfect, and certain physios will try to take advantage of this to automatically recommend them when you walk in for treatment, a lucrative revenue stream for them, but I would run a million miles from someone doing this.

    Once you spend a bit of money - around 300 Euro for me - there is a natural tendency to imagine you are getting an improvement to justify the investment, and you need to discount this. I ran 4 months without, 4 months using them, and repeated the cycle a few times. I never got injured while using them, while I had to take a few breaks with ankle issues without them, and the pattern was consistent enough not to put it down to chance.

    This is specific to me, and there is no guarantee that this is a silver bullet for you. I think you are going down the right route having your running form reviewed first.


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    #3057
    blockic
    Registered Users Posts: 3,820 ✭✭✭blockic


    How have the last 2 weeks gone in terms of the injury?

    I see you are still racking up the miles!!


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    #3058
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    blockic wrote: »
    How have the last 2 weeks gone in terms of the injury?

    I see you are still racking up the miles!!

    It's been a bit better but still feeling it from time to time. I stupidly agreed to join my mates astro-football team over Christmas :o and I played the last two mondays which left my legs in a complete jocker for several days afterwards. E.coli has seen me a few times and he thinks he has a grip on the cause of the injury (QL muscles in the back) but I think my legs have been so stiff from the football everytime I saw him that he spent more time massaging out those pains than treating the injury.

    I made the sensible decision to give up on the football after last week though so hopefully will be feeling better going forward.

    As for miles- racking them up yeah but nowhere near last year (see below). I am not overly worried about that though. The last few years I have had a big month in January and February and peaked in March (setting Marathon PBs on Ultra-training runs then being burnt out for the goal race- Conn ultra) so this year I hope to hold back and peak in April for the London Marathon. Therefore I shouldn't be peaking in terms of miles until March.

    I might be a little undercooked for Donadea 50k in 3 weeks but since it is not a goal race I won't be pushing too hard and should get around OK.

    month|2012 Run days|Miles|2013 Run days|Miles
    January|28/31|290.1|22/28|216.3
    February|27/29|283.2||
    March|24/31|204.7||
    April|23/30|187.8||
    May|29/31|240||
    June|20/30|176||
    July|30/31|309.2||
    August|28/31|257||
    September|26/30|227||
    October|25/31|171||
    November|27/30|201||
    December|28/31|210||
    Total|317/365|2757.8.5|22/28|216.3


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    #3059
    TRR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭TRR


    menoscemo wrote: »
    The last few years I have had a big month in January and February

    :D Let's be honest it's not confined to those 2 months :) Justing getting this in before anybody else


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    #3060
    menoscemo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,915 ✭✭✭✭menoscemo


    TRR wrote: »
    :D Let's be honest it's not confined to those 2 months :) Justing getting this in before anybody else

    Not getting you?
    You can clearly see two big mileage peaks for both 2011 and 2012 (January-February and July-August) as the targets were both times Conn Ultra (start of april) and Berlin Marathon (end of September).


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    #3061
    TRR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭TRR


    menoscemo wrote: »
    Not getting you?
    You can clearly see two big mileage peaks for both 2011 and 2012 (January-February and July-August) as the targets were both times Conn Ultra (start of april) and Berlin Marathon (end of September).

    ha ha **** I read that as mouth not month :D:D:D classic


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