10 shot dead at Batman showing in Denver

Manic Moran · 20-07-2012 5:53pm

We know that there 17,000 murders a year in America, 15,000 of these are results of firearms. Norway has 30 murders year, but the population is much smaller, only 5 million compared to 315 million of the US. But if you compare States of America of a similar size you will see:

What is the counterpoint statistic for the number of defensive gun uses? If you only look at the negatives, you will have a negative impression. Video went around on CNN yesterday of a 71-year-old dealing with an armed robbery of a LAN cafe by use of a .380 semi-auto. Crime prevented, criminals captured, how often does that happen in Norway?

20-07-2012 5:54pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

What is the counterpoint statistic for the number of defensive gun uses? If you only look at the negatives, you will have a negative impression. Video went around on CNN yesterday of a 71-year-old dealing with an armed robbery of a LAN cafe by use of a .380 semi-auto. Crime prevented, criminals captured, how often does that happen in Norway?

Would such cases be included in murder stats?

old hippy · 20-07-2012 5:56pm

PrincessLola wrote: »

According to news reports he did. The baby was taken into hospital but he/she is okay, thank God.

You think the man did this because people didn't care enough about him? How an you be so sure though?
He murdered a 12 year old boy, who was probably so excited about seeing the new Batman movie and was planning the rest of his weekend with his friends, and thinking about going back to school in September and had a future ahead of him.
He robbed all those people of their futures.

I'm not sure, of course. You tend to find that people who perpetrate such heinous acts have suffered from some kind of bullying or abuse in the past. Not that it excuses such acts but maybe something to try and study and comprehend before you off him. Just my tuppence worth.

I'm not sure if the baby was shot, though. But it's good that it's alive (which has nothing to with any god) thanks to a.) competent doctors and possibly b.) not actually being shot.

PrincessLola · 20-07-2012 5:58pm

old hippy wrote: »

I'm not sure if the baby was shot, though. But it's good that it's alive (which has nothing to with any god) thanks to a.) competent doctors and possibly b.) not actually being shot.

Oh don't even start..

SharpshooterTom · 20-07-2012 5:59pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

What is the counterpoint statistic for the number of defensive gun uses? If you only look at the negatives, you will have a negative impression. Video went around on CNN yesterday of a 71-year-old dealing with an armed robbery of a LAN cafe by use of a .380 semi-auto. Crime prevented, criminals captured, how often does that happen in Norway?

I think it proves that a society with far fewer guns is better overall and people wouldn't need guns for self defense if there simply weren't many in the first place.

old hippy · 20-07-2012 5:59pm

PrincessLola wrote: »

Oh don't even start..

You mentioned it first

PrincessLola · 20-07-2012 6:01pm

old hippy wrote: »

You mentioned it first

Its an expression.

Manic Moran · 20-07-2012 6:03pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Would such cases be included in murder stats?

No.

Murder is an unlawful killing. Homicide is any killing. As a result, you have to be clear when looking at statistics, as often time 'gun deaths' or 'homicides' are touted, then the former includes suicides, accidents, and justifiable homicides as well as murders, wheras the latter can include the same except suicide.

Though in the case of the LAN cafe, all parties present survived the experience.

I think it proves that a society with far fewer guns is better overall and people wouldn't need guns for self defense if there simply weren't many in the first place.

It proves that people wouldn't need guns for self defence if everyone (to include the large number of wild animals one can encounter in the US) was nice to each other. Since everyone being nice isn't going to happen, and all firearms being removed from circulation isn't going to happen, a more pragmatic response is required.

NTM

old hippy · 20-07-2012 6:04pm

PrincessLola wrote: »

Its an expression.

Fair enough, so.

Manic Moran · 20-07-2012 6:11pm

One of those unfortunate coincidences.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/20/12856579-woman-who-died-in-colo-movie-rampage-narrowly-escaped-being-shot-last-month?lite/

A woman who died in the movie theater shooting in Denver had previously escaped a shooting at a mall in Toronto in June

SharpshooterTom · 20-07-2012 6:13pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

It proves that people wouldn't need guns for self defence if everyone (to include the large number of wild animals one can encounter in the US) was nice to each other. Since everyone being nice isn't going to happen, and all firearms being removed from circulation isn't going to happen, a more pragmatic response is required.

NTM

In a sense I agree with this in that even if guns were banned in the United States tomorrow, just the sheer number of millions of guns that are already in the country would just be handed out illegally and the situation would be impractical at least on a short term basis.

But I think those who resist background checks and the like and take the 2nd amendment so literally need to call into question how easy it is to obtain guns even for the most mentally disturbed now and will have to accept that if they are to have the 2nd amendmant to continue in its most literal form, that America will always have a high homocide rate and gun murder rate, much more so than most other western democracies. I guess the NRA don't really care though.

Manic Moran · 20-07-2012 6:20pm

But I think those who resist background checks and the like and take the 2nd amendment so literally need to call into question how easy it is to obtain guns even for the most mentally disturbed now and will have to accept that if they are to have the 2nd amendmant to continue in its most literal form, that America will always have a high homocide rate and gun murder rate, much more so than most other western democracies. I guess the NRA don't really care though.

I believe you'll find the NRA has generally supported the idea of background checks such as the NICS I went through when I last bought a firearm.

christmas2012 · 20-07-2012 6:23pm

dreadful news rip to all the dead victims and hopefully the injured ones have a good recovery from such a shocking event..:eek:

SharpshooterTom · 20-07-2012 6:28pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

I believe you'll find the NRA has generally supported the idea of background checks such as the NICS I went through when I last bought a firearm.

Perhaps, I'm not as well tuned in as you are as I don't live there, I just look at it as an outsider. I watch Michael Moore movies and he tells me they are too easy to get. :P

Naw but seriously if I had the time I would like to research it more myself at some point on what background checks there are etc in America and whats being done to prevent people with mental health problems obtaining firearms etc.

Manic Moran · 20-07-2012 6:36pm

Naw but seriously if I had the time I would like to research it more myself at some point on what background checks there are etc in America and whats being done to prevent people with mental health problems obtaining firearms etc.

This has been a high-profile issue ever since Virginia Tech. The problem there wasn't so much that the law allowed Cho to own a firearm but that, had the system worked as the laws intended, he would not have been given approval for the pistol he used to have been purchased. As a result, I submit that there is merit to the mantra that what is needed is not new laws causing further restrictions or confusion (there are thousands of firearms-related laws in the US) but that the mechanisms need to be emplaced to allow the laws to be enforced correctly. Of course, passing a new law is cheap. Creating a proper, practical system whereby all the various agencies, departments etc can speak together and share appropriate information is expensive. No prizes for guessing which way lawmakers tend to go.

token101 · 20-07-2012 6:50pm

Americans love their guns and their 'freedom'. When you couple this with enormous inequality in American society, it's a time bomb. This will continue to happen over and over again. It's a pretty sick society.

20-07-2012 6:52pm

token101 wrote: »

Americans love their guns and their 'freedom'. When you couple this with enormous inequality in American society, it's a time bomb. This will continue to happen over and over again. It's a pretty sick society.

It's funny how usually the big stories aren't down to any real inequality though, they're mainly down to a handful of mental cases.

Einhard · 20-07-2012 6:53pm

Master of Nothing wrote: »

Why are there people in this thread worried about spoilers for a film, when there have been so many people injured, and some killed, by somebody with proper issues?

Fuck off tbh. There are more important things in life than a film:mad:

That's extremely unfair and totally unwarranted. I'm shocked at what happened, but like the people who stayed up late to see the film in that Colorado cinema, I'm also looking forward to the film. I don't see how having the film ruined for me will aid the victims or their families. Perhaps you can explain how it would have such an effect? Otherwise, perhaps you should think a little before you rush to judgement.

steelcityblues · 20-07-2012 6:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's funny how usually the big stories aren't down to any real inequality though, they're mainly down to a handful of mental cases.

The young men who do these big killing sprees usually come from middle-class backgrounds, which tears down his argument.

token101 · 20-07-2012 6:56pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's funny how usually the big stories aren't down to any real inequality though, they're mainly down to a handful of mental cases.

But how come they seem to be almost always happening in America? You can point to Norway, I'm sre many have. But 9/10 times, it's the States. Is that a coincidence? Very easy to blame 'nutcases'. Lot harder to look inward and see where a PHD student decide he needed to kill dozens of people.

PrincessLola · 20-07-2012 6:58pm

token101 wrote: »

But how come they seem to be almost always happening in America? You can point to Norway, I'm sre many have. But 9/10 times, it's the States. Is that a coincidence? Very easy to blame 'nutcases'. Lot harder to look inward and see where a PHD student decide he needed to kill dozens of people.

If he was a working class black Muslim no one would try to understand it.

old hippy · 20-07-2012 6:59pm

steelcityblues wrote: »

The young men who do these big killing sprees usually come from middle-class backgrounds, which tears down his argument.

Regardless of class & race - many are troubled males with underlying mental health issues. Which often stem from alienation, bullying, socially excluded from their peers and so on.

old hippy · 20-07-2012 7:00pm

PrincessLola wrote: »

If he was a working class black Muslim no one would try to understand it.

Oh, I think they would - and jump to all sorts of conclusions. Not saying you would, btw.

steelcityblues · 20-07-2012 7:02pm

old hippy wrote: »

Regardless of class & race - many are troubled males with underlying mental health issues. Which often stem from alienation, bullying, socially excluded from their peers and so on.

You keep on bringing this up. A LOT of people who have experienced the above in life yet are law abiding and would never go to such lengths. Tough luck that he did such a stupid and callous thing, last night.

20-07-2012 7:02pm

token101 wrote: »

But how come they seem to be almost always happening in America? You can point to Norway, I'm sre many have. But 9/10 times, it's the States. Is that a coincidence? Very easy to blame 'nutcases'. Lot harder to look inward and see where a PHD student decide he needed to kill dozens of people.

300 million people compared to 5 million. Pretty simple really.

And I'm sorry but who the **** else will you blame? The people who carry out these acts are responsible, no-one else.

old hippy · 20-07-2012 7:04pm

steelcityblues wrote: »

You keep on bringing this up. A LOT of people who have experienced the above in life yet are law abiding and would never go to such lengths. Tough luck that he did such a stupid and callous thing, last night.

Different people react in different ways. One person's breaking point may be seen as a challenge to get over by others.

Here's a different take

Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) said Friday that the shootings that took place in an Aurora, Colo. movie theater hours earlier were a result of "ongoing attacks on Judeo-Christian beliefs" and questioned why nobody else in the theater had a gun to take down the shooter.

"People say ... where was God in all of this?" Gohmert said. "We've threatened high school graduation participations, if they use God's name, they're going to be jailed ... I mean that kind of stuff. Where was God? What have we done with God? We don't want him around. I kind of like his protective hand being present."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/louie-gohmert-aurora-shootings_n_1689099.html

old hippy · 20-07-2012 7:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

300 million people compared to 5 million. Pretty simple really.

And I'm sorry but who the **** else will you blame? The people who carry out these acts are responsible, no-one else.

I disagree. If we're getting into the blame game, we should take a closer look at what leads someone to dehumanise themselves and do such a thing.

Again, I am not condoning such acts but am concerned that as usual the baying mob will pass judgement without looking at the bigger picture.

Witcher · 20-07-2012 7:07pm

According to an interview with the police chief on Sky News he had an AR15, a shotgun and two .40 calibre Glock pistols. Said it's unclear if he had them legally.

PrincessLola · 20-07-2012 7:08pm

old hippy wrote: »

Different people react in different ways. One person's breaking point may be seen as a challenge to get over by others.

His "breaking point"?

So why didn't he just kill himself, instead of taking out innocent victims (including children)

old hippy · 20-07-2012 7:12pm

PrincessLola wrote: »

His "breaking point"?

So why didn't he just kill himself, instead of taking out innocent victims (including children)

Beacause different people react in different ways. Psychosis isn't all b&w, you know?

Pantsface · 20-07-2012 7:14pm

So excited to see this movie, and can't stop thinking how those poor people would have been the same, delighted to finally see it, only for it to end up like this.

God love them.

Madam_X · 20-07-2012 7:20pm

old hippy wrote: »

I disagree. If we're getting into the blame game, we should take a closer look at what leads someone to dehumanise themselves and do such a thing.

Again, I am not condoning such acts but am concerned that as usual the baying mob will pass judgement without looking at the bigger picture.

Not a baying mob member here, but... he could have been bullied, abused, mentally ill... he's still the only one responsible for this atrocity. I don't agree with the death penalty but I think he should get actual life in a maximum security prison/psychiatric institution. What more would be appropriate? Yeh, the causes of his act need to be examined in order to prevent a repeat, but it's not like this isn't being researched already. Not everyone is a knee-jerk simpleton. Unfortunately some people seem to be beyond help...

3ndahalfof6 · 20-07-2012 7:20pm

Pantsface wrote: »

So excited to see this movie, and can't stop thinking how those poor people would have been the same, delighted to finally see it, only for it to end up like this.

God love them.

HuH!

token101 · 20-07-2012 7:21pm

Deleted User wrote: »

300 million people compared to 5 million. Pretty simple really.

And I'm sorry but who the **** else will you blame? The people who carry out these acts are responsible, no-one else.

Or vs the 100s of millions in Europe? I didn't say he wasn't to blame. I said it will happen again and again in America.

stevenmu · 20-07-2012 7:21pm

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

Colorado 117 murders, 65 by firearms.

Alabama 199 murders, 135 by firearms

South Carolina 280 murders, 207 by firearms

Minnesota 91 murders, 53 by firearms

Wisconsin 157 murders, 97 by firearms

Norway 31 murders, 9 by firearms

You can look at those statistics another way too:

Colorado 117 murders, 52 without firearms.

Alabama 199 murders, 64 without firearms

South Carolina 280 murders, 73 without firearms

Minnesota 91 murders, 38 without firearms

Wisconsin 157 murders, 60 without firearms

Norway 31 murders, 22 without firearms

It's clear that the states listed have higher murder rates than Norway even when fire arms are taken out of the equation. Despite all of the really wonderful things about America and Americans, there seems to be a serious problem with violence and murder. Sure a lot of the murders are firearms related, but if you look at how many are not firearm related, despite the easy availability of firearms, can you really say that taking the firearms away is going to prevent the murders?

If I have to hit a nail into a piece of timber, I'm clearly going to reach for a hammer and not a screwdriver, but there has been times when I didn't have a hammer, so I got the handle of the screwdriver and bet the nail in all the same.

There's clearly a much deeper problem than just the availability of guns, and in order to identify and solve it people need to stop scapegoating and face the real issues.

Duggys Housemate · 20-07-2012 7:24pm

This guy could've been abused as a kid. Or he could've been a psychopath who wanted to kill people. Or both. There are psychos out there, the most that happens when people are bullied is - for the most case they harm themselves.

The world has psychos. This is an important lesson.

token101 · 20-07-2012 7:26pm

stevenmu wrote: »

You can look at those statistics another way too:

Colorado 117 murders, 52 without firearms.

Alabama 199 murders, 64 without firearms

South Carolina 280 murders, 73 without firearms

Minnesota 91 murders, 38 without firearms

Wisconsin 157 murders, 60 without firearms

Norway 31 murders, 22 without firearms

It's clear that the states listed have higher murder rates than Norway even when fire arms are taken out of the equation. Despite all of the really wonderful things about America and Americans, there seems to be a serious problem with violence and murder. Sure a lot of the murders are firearms related, but if you look at how many are not firearm related, despite the easy availability of firearms, can you really say that taking the firearms away is going to prevent the murders?

If I have to hit a nail into a piece of timber, I'm clearly going to reach for a hammer and not a screwdriver, but there has been times when I didn't have a hammer, so I got the handle of the screwdriver and bet the nail in all the same.

There's clearly a much deeper problem than just the availability of guns, and in order to identify and solve it people need to stop scapegoating and face the real issues.

A lot harder to kill dozens of people in one sitting with a knife though. Also requires a lot more effort and aggression than simply pointing and clicking.

old hippy · 20-07-2012 7:26pm

Onixx wrote: »

Not a baying mob member here, but... he could have been bullied, abused, mentally ill... he's still the only one responsible for this atrocity. I don't agree with the death penalty but I think he should get actual life in a maximum security prison/psychiatric institution. What more would be appropriate? Yeh, the causes of his act need to be examined in order to prevent a repeat, but it's not like this isn't being researched already. Not everyone is a knee-jerk simpleton. Unfortunately some people seem to be beyond help...

Actually the whole thread is pretty balanced between mob heavies, pink wristed bleeding heart liberals like me and inbetweeners

I want to know more about his circumstances but currently I am of the opinion that this is some kinds of revenge attack to a perceived slight or way that society has treated him.

Rest assured, am pretty certain that the bloke won't be on the streets of Denver for a very long time. If ever.

Shreddingblood · 20-07-2012 7:26pm

tbh I found some of the jokes funny

Duggys Housemate · 20-07-2012 7:26pm

old hippy wrote: »

Actually the whole thread is pretty balanced between mob heavies, pink wristed bleeding heart liberals like me and inbetweeners

I want to know more about his circumstances but currently I am of the opinion that this is some kinds of revenge attack to a perceived slight or way that society has treated him.

Rest assured, am pretty certain that the bloke won't be on the streets of Denver for a very long time. If ever.

Or he likes killing people because he is a psychopath.

old hippy · 20-07-2012 7:28pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Or he likes killing people because he is a psychopath.

Perhaps. It's all speculation for now. Including my own feelings on the matter.

stevenmu · 20-07-2012 7:30pm

token101 wrote: »

A lot harder to kill dozens of people in one sitting with a knife though. Also requires a lot more effort and aggression than simply pointing and clicking.

It's a lot easier with homemade explosives or chemicals, or by flying a plane into a building, or by setting fire to one etc.. etc..

People don't just find themselves sitting around bored and holding a gun and decide to kill dozens of people. They decide to kill dozens of people and then set about how to do it. The problem isn't that they have access to guns, it's that they decide to kill dozens of people in the first place.

token101 · 20-07-2012 7:31pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

This guy could've been abused as a kid. Or he could've been a psychopath who wanted to kill people. Or both. There are psychos out there, the most that happens when people are bullied is - for the most case they harm themselves.

The world has psychos. This is an important lesson.

Isn't a bit strange though, how America seems to have proportionally more than anywhere else?

PrincessLola · 20-07-2012 7:34pm

old hippy wrote: »

Actually the whole thread is pretty balanced between mob heavies, pink wristed bleeding heart liberals like me and inbetweeners

The thing is, I'm usually a massive bleeding heart liberal on most issues (unemployment, racism, feminism, welfare). But when I hear a baby got shot at at point blank range and a twelve year old was killed I just went into a mini-meltdown

I guess that makes me the true bleeding heart heh..

token101 · 20-07-2012 7:34pm

stevenmu wrote: »

It's a lot easier with homemade explosives or chemicals, or by flying a plane into a building, or by setting fire to one etc.. etc..

People don't just find themselves sitting around bored and holding a gun and decide to kill dozens of people. They decide to kill dozens of people and then set about how to do it. The problem isn't that they have access to guns, it's that they decide to kill dozens of people in the first place.

How do you know that? If you're that pissed off and you have the means, you'll do something about it. But having weapons like he did makes a lot easier. It's difficult to make a bomb unless you know what you're doing. It's even more difficult to hijack a plane. You saw that guy last year who drove to Cork Airport in a police jeep? No one died, he got 8 years (I think?), a relatively fair sentence. Do you think if he had easy access to weapons that would have ended as well? Because I certainly don't.

Witcher · 20-07-2012 7:35pm

Not a hope in hell that there will be any changes to firearms legislation in the US after this, it would be political suicide for Obama or any future president to touch the second amendment. People hold their constitutional rights to firearms incredibly seriously there.

Duggys Housemate · 20-07-2012 7:35pm

token101 wrote: »

Isn't a bit strange though, how America seems to have proportionally more than anywhere else?

That could be access to guns, though.

However, in the Psychopath Test there was a telling exchange with a psychologist in Scotland.

q: How many Psychopath are there in scottish Jails?
a: None, they are all in Jail in London - where the rate of incarcarated Psychopaths is high.

Psychopaths are attracted to bright lights and big cities, the kind of thing that drove America forward - the entrepreneurship and drive of the self selecting groups who went there - may have meant it attracted more psychos. Psychopathy is not a trivial inheritance issue, only 1 % of the population is at any one time, but if the ratio is higher in a part of the world it probably stays higher.

Tym · 20-07-2012 7:35pm

Isn't a bit strange though, how America seems to have proportionally more than anywhere else?

Not really. Common sense would tell you that if something happens once it increases the chances of it happening again.

It's difficult to make a bomb unless you know what you're doing.

Sorry, but petrol bombs.

token101 · 20-07-2012 7:48pm

Tym wrote: »

Not really. Common sense would tell you that if something happens once it increases the chances of it happening again.

Can't see happening in Norway again though.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

That could be access to guns, though.

However, in the Psychopath Test there was a telling exchange with a psychologist in Scotland.

q: How many Psychopath are there in scottish Jails?
a: None, they are all in Jail in London - where the rate of incarcarated Psychopaths is high.

Psychopaths are attracted to bright lights and big cities, the kind of thing that drove America forward - the entrepreneurship and drive of the self selecting groups who went there - may have meant it attracted more psychos. Psychopathy is not a trivial inheritance issue, only 1 % of the population is at any one time, but if the ratio is higher in a part of the world it probably stays higher.

Can you name one mass shooting incident like this in London? Berlin? They're all big cities like the ones in the states?

Duggys Housemate · 20-07-2012 7:50pm

token101 wrote: »

Can't see happening in Norway again though.

Can you name one mass shooting incident like this in London? Berlin? They're all big cities like the ones in the states?

Also, guns. My first point. I did say that America attracted more psychos to begin with, and add guns, and you are done.

10 shot dead at Batman showing in Denver

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