Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

Paddy Samurai · 21-03-2012 12:46pm #1

REPRESENTATIVES OF Ireland’s largest Sunni mosque have raised concerns over incidents in which a number of Muslim women were asked to remove their headscarves to comply with new identification procedures at the Garda National Immigration Bureau in Dublin.
The new procedures, which include a biometric fingerprint-capture system, were introduced in recent weeks.
A number of women subsequently informed the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland that they had been requested to remove their headscarves or hijab for photographs required for the new version of the registration certificate sometimes known as the Garda National Immigration Bureau or GNIB card.
The card, which features the holder’s name, photograph and other details, is proof that a person is legally resident in Ireland. The incidents did not involve women wearing the niqab or full-face veil.
“As we believe that observing hijab, an Islamic obligation, is a right guaranteed by international laws and Irish law, we contacted a Garda representative and discussed our concerns,” said Ali Selim, a senior member of staff at the centre, which is based in Clonskeagh, Dublin. “The Garda representative showed understanding and acted promptly. Soon afterwards he confirmed to us that Muslim women would not be asked to remove their hijab. We are grateful for this prompt response. This is the inclusive Ireland that we are proud to be part of.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0321/1224313640645.html

Seems pointless taking a ID photo if you can't see the persons face.So I assume that only the hair and neck are covered?.

admiralofthefleet · 21-03-2012 12:49pm

when in rome.....

hondasam · 21-03-2012 12:53pm

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

Seems pointless taking a ID photo if you can't see the persons face.So I assume that only the hair and neck are covered?.

Considering they are taking fingerprints the photograph is not as important.

keithclancy · 21-03-2012 12:55pm

hondasam wrote: »

Considering they are taking fingerprints the photograph is not as important.

Fine then, non muslims should be allowed to wear a Balaclava, keeps the tea in your mouth warm

Phill Ewinn · 21-03-2012 12:56pm

Seems logical. I can't wear my hoodie either I suppose.

dlofnep · 21-03-2012 12:56pm

Proper order. Religion is not a get out of jail free card when it comes to observing law.

hondasam · 21-03-2012 12:57pm

keithclancy wrote: »

Fine then, non muslims should be allowed to wear a Balaclava, keeps the tea in your mouth warm

Is wearing a balaclava part of non Muslim culture ?

wes · 21-03-2012 12:57pm

keithclancy wrote: »

Fine then, non muslims should be allowed to wear a Balaclava, keeps the tea in your mouth warm

The Hijab covers hair, not the face. So hardly an apt comparison.

CardBordWindow · 21-03-2012 12:58pm

Maybe the garda in question is just a fan of nice hair?

hondasam · 21-03-2012 12:59pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Proper order. Religion is not a get out of jail free card when it comes to observing law.

They are taking their photograph and fingerprints, they are not breaking any law tbf.

dlofnep · 21-03-2012 12:59pm

wes wrote: »

The Hijab covers hair, not the face. So hardly an apt comparison.

The photo requires that nothing is covered.

Unavailable for Comment · 21-03-2012 1:00pm

dlofnep wrote: »

The photo requires that nothing is covered.

Only head coverings worn for religious reasons are permitted.

tfitzgerald · 21-03-2012 1:00pm

I think they should be made remove it too . I'm sure the Garda can provide a female Garda to take the photo .

dlofnep · 21-03-2012 1:01pm

hondasam wrote: »

They are taking their photograph and fingerprints, they are not breaking any law tbf.

Well, if they don't like the requirements - then they don't have to get the ID. If not having the ID affects their life here, then that is their fault - not ours.

Pataman · 21-03-2012 1:02pm

They should be made remove it. If they are stopped at the side of the road the garda has no way of checking fingerprints.

some random drunk · 21-03-2012 1:03pm

Paddy Samurai wrote: »

Seems pointless taking a ID photo if you can't see the persons face.So I assume that only the hair and neck are covered?.

You can see their face. All women wearing veils have to remove them for the photo. Women wearing headscarves were on a couple of occasions asked to remove them, but won't be asked in future. This is in the article you quoted, I don't understand why you are confused?

A veil covers a woman's hair, neck and face.
A headscarf depending on the style may cover some or all of a woman's hair and some or all of her neck.

Proxy · 21-03-2012 1:03pm

They should remove it for the purpose of the card which is legal identification. It's the law, and as we all know religious law should not supersede the law in any circumstance.

PogMoThoin · 21-03-2012 1:03pm

If I'm not allowed my pasta strainer, they shouldn't be allowed their religious headdress

wes · 21-03-2012 1:03pm

dlofnep wrote: »

The photo requires that nothing is covered.

This part of the article seems to suggest otherwise:

“The Garda representative showed understanding and acted promptly. Soon afterwards he confirmed to us that Muslim women would not be asked to remove their hijab. We are grateful for this prompt response. This is the inclusive Ireland that we are proud to be part of.”

So from my understanding of that, is that they are allowed to wear a head scarf, and that the previous requests were made out of confustion due to a new system.

I still stand by my original point, that Balaclava, which covers ones face, is not the same as a head scarf, which doesn't.

af_thefragile · 21-03-2012 1:04pm

Whatever happened to freedom...

markesmith · 21-03-2012 1:04pm

Another incidence of people up in arms about their rights, without a moment's thought to their responsibilities. We need Dick Littlejohn in on this thread, the right-wing lunatic

Unavailable for Comment · 21-03-2012 1:04pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Well, if they don't like the requirements - then they don't have to get the ID. If not having the ID affects their life here, then that is their fault - not ours.

The requirement is on the Gardai to allow women to cover their hair as a religious obligation should they wish.

Mint Sauce · 21-03-2012 1:04pm

Are they requried to remove their head scarf for a passport photo?

biko · 21-03-2012 1:05pm

To cover the face isn't an Islamic obligation. Most Muslim countries doesn't require this.
Hardcore Muslims enforce it but Sharia doesn't supersede Irish law.

Even the girl with the face covering says "it's a choice".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXzUuKdfnRE

hondasam · 21-03-2012 1:05pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Well, if they don't like the requirements - then they don't have to get the ID. If not having the ID affects their life here, then that is their fault - not ours.

Why does it have to be us against the rest of the world.

Pataman wrote: »

They should be made remove it. If they are stopped at the side of the road the garda has no way of checking fingerprints.

If I am stopped at the side of the road a guard has no way of checking who I am either.He has to go on the Id I have on me.

Unavailable for Comment · 21-03-2012 1:06pm

irish-stew wrote: »

Are they requried to remove their head scarf for a passport photo?

No.

dlofnep · 21-03-2012 1:06pm

wes wrote: »

I still stand by my original point, that Balaclava, which covers ones face, is not the same as a head scarf, which doesn't.

So long as the courtesy is extended to all people, male, or female - regardless of their religion - that they can wear a head-scarf - Then I'll accept such a decision. I won't accept any exceptions based on religious grounds.

mconigol · 21-03-2012 1:07pm

Absolutely ridiculous stuff.

Celly Smunt · 21-03-2012 1:07pm

I wonder what an Islamic shampoo ad would look like..

The King of Moo · 21-03-2012 1:08pm

I think they should be asked to remove it just for the purposes of identification. Faces without the hair visible can be surprisingly hard to distinguish from each other. Hair gives a face more definition and can be used to distinguish two people with similar faces from each other.

The rest of the time though, people should be allowed to wear whatever they want.

dlofnep · 21-03-2012 1:08pm

hondasam wrote: »

Why does it have to be us against the rest of the world.

I don't see how it's us against the world. I don't believe that religion is a valid excuse for covering up and having it protected by law. The courtesy should be extended to all, or none.

wes · 21-03-2012 1:09pm

dlofnep wrote: »

So long as the courtesy is extended to all people, male, or female - regardless of their religion - that they can wear a head-scarf - Then I'll accept such a decision. I won't accept any exceptions based on religious grounds.

I have no idea about what the law says exactly, but from my understanding as per the article, is that the Women in question are allowed to wear a head scarf. I can't comment beyond that, as I have no clue exactly what the law says.

Pataman · 21-03-2012 1:09pm

hondasam wrote: »

Why does it have to be us against the rest of the world.

If I am stopped at the side of the road a guard has no way of checking who I am either.He has to go on the Id I have on me.

Well then why are they required to carry ID? If they are required it must be effective in showing the garda who they are, not some wishy washy we dont want to upset you, effort.

some random drunk · 21-03-2012 1:10pm

irish-stew wrote: »

Are they requried to remove their head scarf for a passport photo?

No.

Only head coverings worn for religious reasons are permitted. Hair bands are not allowed.

source: Department of Foreign Affairs.

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=257

af_thefragile · 21-03-2012 1:11pm

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't see how it's us against the world. I don't believe that religion is a valid excuse for covering up and having it protected by law. The courtesy should be extended to all, or none.

You dont care much about religion but for many people their religion means a lot to them. We dont live in a fascist state which strips people of their identity.

Paddy Samurai · 21-03-2012 1:12pm

some random drunk wrote: »

You can see their face. All women wearing veils have to remove them for the photo. Women wearing headscarves were on a couple of occasions asked to remove them, but won't be asked in future. This is in the article you quoted, I don't understand why you are confused?

A veil covers a woman's hair, neck and face.
A headscarf depending on the style may cover some or all of a woman's hair and some or all of her neck.

Probably the way I read it,thought hijab covered the face.Have a killer hangover this am,so billions of braincells dying as we speak.

The incidents did not involve women wearing the niqab or full-face veil.

Does this mean people with there faces covered did'nt have to remove them,but people with headscaves did?.

Ellis Dee · 21-03-2012 1:12pm

If I understand what "hijab" means, the woman's face is completely visible.

However, if there is some technical reason for asking a woman wearing a hijab (see here http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_p9bTjaEtKuc/S-zyQwJFkdI/AAAAAAAADuQ/EkqImkNfms8/s1600/hip-hijab.jpg ) to remove it, then by the same logic they should also ask nuns (http://yle.fi/vintti/yle.fi/artonyberg/upload/images/nunna_Kristoduli.jpg ) to do the same.:)

dlofnep · 21-03-2012 1:14pm

af_thefragile wrote: »

You dont care much about religion but for many people their religion means a lot to them. We dont live in a fascist state which strips people of their identity.

No, we don't live in a fascist state. We also don't allow religion as an excuse to bypass laws and regulations. That has nothing to do with fascism I'm afraid. The law of the land is above all. If you don't respect the law of the land, you're not obliged to live here.

Yakult · 21-03-2012 1:15pm

Religion is funny.

21-03-2012 1:15pm

If there is any reason why a hair covering impedes identification, they should be required to remove them. After all, you get the photo taken in a private booth, no? There's no reason not to take it off for the photo if required.

hondasam · 21-03-2012 1:16pm

Pataman wrote: »

Well then why are they required to carry ID? If they are required it must be effective in showing the garda who they are, not some wishy washy we dont want to upset you, effort.

If they are stopped on the side of the road they will be wearing the Hijab, If the photograph is taken without the hijab then the id is useless, they will look different. How is the guard going to know if it's the same person?

krudler · 21-03-2012 1:17pm

af_thefragile wrote: »

You dont care much about religion but for many people their religion means a lot to them. We dont live in a fascist state which strips people of their identity.

nor do we live in a state where one group of people should be exempt from the laws everyone else has to follow

Pataman · 21-03-2012 1:18pm

I think you get a better impression of the face and head with the scarf/hijab etc removed

token101 · 21-03-2012 1:18pm

This should be a secular process. Sick of listening to us pander to this sh*t. It's common f*cking sense. I wouldn't be allowed to come in wearing a paddy hat. What if I happened to believe some stupid sh*t that without my hat I'd be committing mortal sin? Are we going to start pandering to me? Just because there's a lot of them, it doesn't mean that society has to start pandering to people with daft beliefs. If you don't want to take your headscarf off, then you're not getting the card. Simple as. Same rules for everyone, regardless of colour, race, religion, etc.

dlofnep · 21-03-2012 1:19pm

Pataman wrote: »

I think you get a better impression of the face and head with the scarf/hijab etc removed

You're right: http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk54rhGJX31qzxe0uo1_r1_500.jpg

Unavailable for Comment · 21-03-2012 1:20pm

dlofnep wrote: »

The law of the land is above all. If you don't respect the law of the land, you're not obliged to live here.

There is no law, regulation, ruling, directive, instruction, brief, just NOTHING against women covering their hair for religious reasons.

If you decide to cover your hair nobody can even ask you whether it's for religious reasons as that in itself is discriminatory.

hondasam · 21-03-2012 1:20pm

Pataman wrote: »

I think you get a better impression of the face and head with the scarf/hijab etc removed

Yes of course you do but if they are stopped by gardai would they then be asked to remove it every time ?

af_thefragile · 21-03-2012 1:20pm

dlofnep wrote: »

No, we don't live in a fascist state. We also don't allow religion as an excuse to bypass laws and regulations. That has nothing to do with fascism I'm afraid. The law of the land is above all. If you don't respect the law of the land, you're not obliged to live here.

Not respecting ones region and identity is a form of fascism. People shouls have the freedom to follow whatever religion they wish to and identify themselves with it if they wish to without any objections from the state. Its protecting the persons basic rights and freedom.

biko · 21-03-2012 1:21pm

Ah, I see now the OP was referring to the hijab that only cover the hair and ears.
This is a requirement in most Muslim countries afaik.

Peetrik · 21-03-2012 1:22pm

As an Atheist I couldn't give a fig about religion, but being intolerant over others beliefs when it has absolutely no bearing on you is just being pedantic. It makes sod all difference to you but it's a big deal to them, let them wear a scarf.

Besides if a guard can't identify a woman because she is wearing a hair scarf then they should be fired.

Stark · 21-03-2012 1:23pm

token101 wrote: »

This should be a secular process. Sick of listening to us pander to this sh*t. It's common f*cking sense. I wouldn't be allowed to come in wearing a paddy hat. What if I happened to believe some stupid sh*t that without my hat I'd be committing mortal sin? Are we going to start pandering to me? Just because there's a lot of them, it doesn't mean that society has to start pandering to people with daft beliefs. If you don't want to take your headscarf off, then you're not getting the card. Simple as. Same rules for everyone, regardless of colour, race, religion, etc.

Normally I'd be against pandering to religions, but these women have been brought up to see a woman's hair the way we would see woman's breasts and other private parts. Asking them to get it out is akin to asking an Irish woman to show more cleavage when having her photo taken.

Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

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