Queen Elizabeth II to visit Ireland.

aDeener · 24-06-2010 3:16pm

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Strangely enough the UK votes for their politicians every 4 to 5 years as well, Imagine that. You really need to get a grip and live in the present

where did i say they didnt? id advise you to read through the rest of the thread :rolleyes:

Cavehill Red · 24-06-2010 3:23pm

djpbarry wrote: »

And of course, we all know that nothing in Northern Ireland has changed over the last 400-odd years, has it?

Well, if you mean the Irish right to self-determination is still being denied, you're spot on.

20goto10 · 24-06-2010 3:23pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Make the lady welcome, and show them that we have matured as a state, and are a confident people going forward.

I totally agree but unfortunately we all know a visit like this will be marred by violence and protests. Based on that I think it is best she stays away. It will come across as being far from positive in the media.

dvpower · 24-06-2010 3:23pm

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There are some questions that you should not ask: you are inviting yourself on a trip down a cul-de-sac.

All I got was an attribution, not a definition, of a situation that pertained 400 years ago, by an source that I suspect wouldn't be the normal first choice of the poster.

So I think I'm safe.:pac:

Cavehill Red · 24-06-2010 3:24pm

dvpower wrote: »

That definition says that it was a colony not that it is a colony.

I had my suspicions that some of the naysayers are living in the past, but ffs:rolleyes:

Actually, I'm living in the occupation, sunshine.
I suspect your opinion of Betty and her armed forces might be a little less welcoming if you'd had to grow up under their idea of enlightened rule.

Cavehill Red · 24-06-2010 3:25pm

dvpower wrote: »

All I got was an attribution, not a definition, of a situation that pertained 400 years ago, by an source that I suspect wouldn't be the normal first choice of the poster.

So I think I'm safe.:pac:

I assumed you might find it harder to question the bona fides of the colonists themselves.

eightyfish · 24-06-2010 3:28pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Actually, I'm living in the occupation, sunshine.

I'm surprised Boards isn't blocked in Iraq.

dvpower · 24-06-2010 3:29pm

20goto10 wrote: »

I totally agree but unfortunately we all know a visit like this will be marred by violence and protests. Based on that I think it is best she stays away. It will come across as being far from positive in the media.

I'd say the visit will be very carefully stage managed. There are likely to be some protests by the fringe groups and they will be portrayed as such.

Even SF are likely to be muted, if the visit takes place in the run up to a general election here and SF are trying to appeal to the mainstream.

20goto10 · 24-06-2010 3:30pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Actually, I'm living in the occupation, sunshine.
I suspect your opinion of Betty and her armed forces might be a little less welcoming if you'd had to grow up under their idea of enlightened rule.

She's been invited to the Republic of Ireland. Any Nordy twats who have a problem with that can p!ss off back to their own country and mind their own business.

dvpower · 24-06-2010 3:31pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I assumed you might find it harder to question the bona fides of the colonists themselves.

Again, under what definition is NI a colony?

RATM · 24-06-2010 3:31pm

I for one welcome our royal overlords=)

If she comes the taxpayer will have to foot the bill for her security, just the same way as the UK taxpayer foots the bill when our heads of state visit there. However you can be rest assured that M15/6 will be crawling all over the place- in fact they are probably here already sussing out the route from the airport to the Aras etc.

Regardless I welcome a visit by the Queen, I dont agree with monarchies or some of the past deeds of her family and I feel there should be an apology which will help matters between our two countries a lot (on our side more so than theirs).

Im fearful of any major protests though- the Queen is well liked in the UK which is our single biggest trading partner. She is also well liked in the US which is also another major trade partner. The Americans would take a dim view of Ireland if there were to be a protest of any major size.

Coillte_Bhoy · 24-06-2010 3:55pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I never suggest it was. When i refer to the country of Ireland i mean the whole island. Not sure what you mean tbh

Coillte_Bhoy · 24-06-2010 4:10pm

20goto10 wrote: »

She's been invited to the Republic of Ireland. Any Nordy twats who have a problem with that can p!ss off back to their own country and mind their own business.

This is their country and its hardly goign to be all northereners who will object to this visit. Nordy twats??? Very mature.

RATM · 24-06-2010 4:13pm

dvpower wrote: »

Again, under what definition is NI a colony?

Im not sure what the exact definition of a colony is but if you look back on the plantations in NI you might get some idea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland

Biggins · 24-06-2010 4:18pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Cost is just another red herring dragged up by the anti-British brigade. Any properly organised visit would pay back the associated costs in spades through increased tourism, trade links etc - just like any other high profile VIP visit.

Fair enough. I'm sure business heads will look forward to her sitting down and discussing at length/detail, business plans and future prospects before signing up to legal contracts.

getz · 24-06-2010 4:19pm

RATM wrote: »

I for one welcome our royal overlords=)

If she comes the taxpayer will have to foot the bill for her security, just the same way as the UK taxpayer foots the bill when our heads of state visit there. However you can be rest assured that M15/6 will be crawling all over the place- in fact they are probably here already sussing out the route from the airport to the Aras etc.

Regardless I welcome a visit by the Queen, I dont agree with monarchies or some of the past deeds of her family and I feel there should be an apology which will help matters between our two countries a lot (on our side more so than theirs).

Im fearful of any major protests though- the Queen is well liked in the UK which is our single biggest trading partner. She is also well liked in the US which is also another major trade partner. The Americans would take a dim view of Ireland if there were to be a protest of any major size.

what passed deeds of her family ?

dvpower · 24-06-2010 4:20pm

RATM wrote: »

Im not sure what the exact definition of a colony is but if you look back on the plantations in NI you might get some idea.

I already have a good understanding of what a colony is and NI isn't one today.

oppenheimer1 · 24-06-2010 4:21pm

dlofnep wrote: »

Perhaps she might as a gesture of good will, remove the title of OBE from Derek Wilford in lieu of the recent Saville Inquiry findings - to show that she too has matured.

And you would know it is The British Government that awards those honours, not the Queen herself. For those that want Wilfords honour removed they need to petition the right people, which is not the Queen.

The BGov have apologised for Bloody Sunday, compensation will follow for the relatives. That is the best they can do given the circumstances tbh.

All this Commander-in-Chief business is a red herring, it wasn't the Queen who sent the troops into the north, it was her Government. She is merely a figurehead and couldn't have stopped them sending them in if thats what they wanted.

Wolfe Tone · 24-06-2010 4:24pm

Simple question:

What benefits will a visit by the queen of britain have?

eightyfish · 24-06-2010 4:29pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What benefits will a visit by the queen of britain have?

Positive media attention worldwide, generating goodwill for Ireland.
Improved tourism from the UK beacuse people will realise we're not still holding a hundreds-year-old grudge
Feeling of pride among Irish people that we've matured sufficiently to accept a visit from the head of state of our nearest neighbours without riots and blood-letting, similar to the feeling after the English national anthem was treated with respect in Croke Park
And you never know, there's probably some Irish people out there who'd quite enjoy going to see the queen.

aDeener · 24-06-2010 4:35pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And you would know it is The British Government that awards those honours, not the Queen herself. For those that want Wilfords honour removed they need to petition the right people, which is not the Queen.

The BGov have apologised for Bloody Sunday, compensation will follow for the relatives. That is the best they can do given the circumstances tbh.

All this Commander-in-Chief business is a red herring, it wasn't the Queen who sent the troops into the north, it was her Government. She is merely a figurehead and couldn't have stopped them sending them in if thats what they wanted.

it is not a red herring oppenheimer. The Queen remains the ultimate authority of the military and retains the power to prevent its unconstitutional use.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7758314.stm

IrishTonyO · 24-06-2010 4:36pm

aDeener wrote: »

it is not a red herring oppenheimer. The Queen remains the ultimate authority of the military and retains the power to prevent its unconstitutional use.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7758314.stm

The UK does not have a constitution

dvpower · 24-06-2010 4:37pm

Simple question:

What drawbacks will a visit by the queen of britain have?

Biggins · 24-06-2010 4:38pm

IrishTonyO wrote: »

The UK does not have a constitution

Then how can they hold a referendum - say on the Euro question for example?

Genuine question - forgive my lack of knowledge in regards to the legalities of English law.

Wolfe Tone · 24-06-2010 4:42pm

eightyfish wrote: »

Positive media attention worldwide, generating goodwill for Ireland.

Improved tourism from the UK beacuse people will realise we're not still holding a hundreds-year-old grudge

Feeling of pride among Irish people that we've matured sufficiently to accept a visit from the head of state of our nearest neighbours without riots and blood-letting, similar to the feeling after the English national anthem was treated with respect in Croke Park

And you never know, there's probably some Irish people out there who'd quite enjoy going to see the queen.

You do realize there will be numerous protests?
Positive media attention worldwide? I doubt it.
Matured? Thats just rubbish. Time and time again people just write off people, Irish people, in the 6 counties. There is a lot of enmity towards that woman not only for the past but for the present also.

Until we hear what the Queen will do here I see in no way how a visit will be in any way beneficial. If she is literally just popping over for tea then what is the point of wasting millions? However if she is coming over and will do things here that can be considered reconciliatory as I outlined earlier, then her visit could be a good thing. Otherwise it is simply pointless.

aDeener · 24-06-2010 4:42pm

IrishTonyO wrote: »

The UK does not have a constitution

oh you're back, i take it you didn't read the link, just like when you didnt read my previous posts in the thread. it refers to their unwritten constitution.

IrishTonyO · 24-06-2010 4:44pm

Biggins wrote: »

Then how can they hold a referendum - say on the Euro question for example?

Genuine question - forgive my lack of knowledge in regards to the legalities of English law.

A referendum is not just on a constitutional issue, a referendum is simply a direct vote by the entirety of the electorate. A referendum can be held for any number of reasons including the following.

change to a constitution
enactment of a law
a vote on government policy

Run_to_da_hills · 24-06-2010 4:47pm

IrishTonyO wrote: »

The UK does not have a constitution

Either do we for that matter since we foolishly sold out our rights to the EU in Lisbon referendum. :rolleyes: .

getz · 24-06-2010 4:48pm

Biggins wrote: »

Then how can they hold a referendum - say on the Euro question for example?

Genuine question - forgive my lack of knowledge in regards to the legalities of English law.

there is no written constitution, so the goverment of the day does not need to go to the people,but only a foolish goverment would reject the peoples wish

dvpower · 24-06-2010 4:49pm

IrishTonyO wrote: »

A referendum is not just on a constitutional issue ...

I'd add that constitutional law doesn't have to be in a single document called the constitution. It can be (as in the case of the UK) the body of law that deals the distribution and exercise of government power.

So the UK doesn't have a constitution but it does have constitutional law.

eightyfish · 24-06-2010 4:51pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

You do realize there will be numerous protests?

I do. I'm just hoping they don't eclipse the visit itself. I bet eirigi will be there, they love a good riot.

IrishTonyO · 24-06-2010 4:54pm

dvpower wrote: »

I'd add that constitutional law doesn't have to be in a single document called the constitution. It can be (as in the case of the UK) the body of law that deals the distribution and exercise of government power.

So the UK doesn't have a constitution but it does have constitutional law.

When the UK is said to have an unwritten constitution it is said that it has laws that make a part constitution, or uncompleted. And constitution in the true sense is completed and legally recorded in a document(s). The UK is only one of about 3 democracies in the world without a complete written constitution.

who the fug · 24-06-2010 4:55pm

Biggins wrote: »

Then how can they hold a referendum - say on the Euro question for example?

Genuine question - forgive my lack of knowledge in regards to the legalities of English law.

That is why the Tories & Labour have got away with Europe for so long, as the government of the day does not have to refer back to the people on any issues

If they did , then the UK would be more unpopular than it is in europe

Coillte_Bhoy · 24-06-2010 5:16pm

who the fug wrote: »

That is why the Tories & Labour have got away with Europe for so long, as the government of the day does not have to refer back to the people on any issues

If they did , then the UK would be more unpopular than it is in europe

Most other EU contries dont have to refer back to the people either and they have written constitutions.

dvpower · 24-06-2010 5:21pm

Maybe the Queen can give us a talk on UK constitutional law when she gets here - I believe she's a bit of an expert.

oppenheimer1 · 24-06-2010 5:24pm

aDeener wrote: »

it is not a red herring oppenheimer. The Queen remains the ultimate authority of the military and retains the power to prevent its unconstitutional use.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7758314.stm

In theory yes, but in reality there would be a constitutional crisis in the UK if the Queen refused to perform her duties. Her role is like the Presidents in Ireland but less codified. In reality she cannot refuse her governments wishes.

When the objections the Queen had personally to apartheid in SA were made known, there was little she could do because the Thatcher Government opposed any sanctions to be imposed.

djpbarry · 24-06-2010 5:34pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Well, if you mean the Irish right to self-determination is still being denied, you're spot on.

So this assembly thingy in Stormont consisting of Irish representatives - what's that all about?

rovert · 24-06-2010 5:47pm

I love that the people who care about the Queen the most are Nationalists, others dont really care.

djpbarry wrote: »

So this assembly thingy in Stormont consisting of Irish representatives - what's that all about?

Dont question his talking points from the 70s

aDeener · 24-06-2010 5:48pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

In theory yes, but in reality there would be a constitutional crisis in the UK if the Queen refused to perform her duties. Her role is like the Presidents in Ireland but less codified. In reality she cannot refuse her governments wishes.

When the objections the Queen had personally to apartheid in SA were made known, there was little she could do because the Thatcher Government opposed any sanctions to be imposed.

there hardly would have been "a constitutional crisis" if she refused an OBE to a man who was in charge of the slaughter of 14 innocent civilians? think you're exaggerating a bit there oppenheimer.

oppenheimer1 · 24-06-2010 6:00pm

aDeener wrote: »

there hardly would have been "a constitutional crisis" if she refused an OBE to a man who was in charge of the slaughter of 14 innocent civilians? think you're exaggerating a bit there oppenheimer.

Its not her who decides that gets an OBE, its the government of the day. If she refused to perform any of her duties, no matter how minor it would trigger a crisis.

Look at what happened in Ireland in the past, O'Dalaigh had to resign when a minister called him a thundering disgrace. Seems minor doesn't it?

Eliot Rosewater · 24-06-2010 6:01pm

rovert wrote: »

I love that the people who care about the Queen the most are Nationalists, others dont really care.

Ironic indeed. I don't like to be dismissive of other political views, but this all-out semi-militant nationalism is something I can't fathom. Whether or not the Queen visits Ireland will have no perceptible difference on my life, ditto with whether Northern Ireland is apart of the country stamped on my passport. I'd prefer to just aim my life at doing what I personally like to do and achieving what I can, rather than always looking backwards, taking a negative view of the country I'm in and agitating for things, like unification, that won't actually change my life or make me happier.

I can understand patriotism, just not militant nationalism.

djpbarry wrote: »

So this assembly thingy in Stormont consisting of Irish representatives - what's that all about?

You see, self-determination doesn't matter, despite the overtures. It's only Irish self-determination that does, even if that is at the expense of what the majority want up North.

Permabear · 24-06-2010 6:08pm

This post has been deleted.

Wolfe Tone · 24-06-2010 6:15pm

Unification would make a lot f people happier. Change peoples lives too. Just thought I would put that out there.

Permabear · 24-06-2010 6:22pm

This post has been deleted.

aDeener · 24-06-2010 6:24pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

two thirds of a province

getz · 24-06-2010 6:25pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Unification would make a lot f people happier. Change peoples lives too. Just thought I would put that out there.

i am all for irish unification but i cannot see it happening in our lifetime,unless ALL the people of ireland agree, all i can see is another civil war,and i dont think ireland has the power to deal with that.to get the loyalist fraction to agree with it you would have to bring in some sort of british factor.

cursai · 24-06-2010 6:28pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Make the lady welcome, and show them that we have matured as a state, and are a confident people going forward.

Don't you mean 'forgiven'.

aDeener · 24-06-2010 6:30pm

i find it funny how whenever anglo-irish relations are brought up people always trot out the "move on, its all in the past" line and tell everyone to mature and grow up. but whenever the ills of the catholic church and the horrible things they did in the past is brought up the same is never said. i wonder why?

rovert · 24-06-2010 6:30pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Unification would make a lot f people happier. Change peoples lives too. Just thought I would put that out there.

Are you trollling or what?

aDeener wrote: »

i find it funny how whenever anglo-irish relations are brought up people always trot out the "move on, its all in the past" line and tell everyone to mature and grow up. but whenever the ills of the catholic church and the horrible things they did in the past is brought up the same is never said. i wonder why?

Because they are very different situations. Just a guess mate.

aDeener · 24-06-2010 6:32pm

rovert wrote: »

Are you trollling or what?

how is that trolling. it is true, it would make a lot of people happier, granted it would also make a lot of people unhappy, but what he said still holds

Queen Elizabeth II to visit Ireland.

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