Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; Have NOT Read the Books

thefa · 15-04-2014 5:32pm

ShaggyQueen wrote: »

Yeah maybe so, but he was Robbs right hand man, so he surely could have had some chance of improving his position if they'd won. As it is now, the North hates him, the Iron Islanders hold parts of it and Tyrion/Sansa could have a child to claim Winterfell and control of the North again. Wouldn't be a decision I would have made

He switched sides when the war was turning against Robb. Unrest in the North Army's leadership over Robb's decision to marry Talisa which impeded their alliance with the Freys. Losing Jaime Lannister as a hostage(Catelyn letting him go, not when Roose struck a deal and released him) which eventually led to the Karstark leader kiiling the boys and Karstark being beheaded which lost Robb a large chunk of his army. Robb wasn't losing battles but was still losing the war. Bolton was jumping ship. In his comments to Walder Frey, he did not seem to have a good opinion of Robb on a personal level either.

Roose being made Warden of the North with new land entitlements and having the support of the Lannisters made more sense that ending up on the losing side. Roose has no living trueborn son so I doubt the long-term prospect of Tyrion and Sansa having a kid to take over was that much of a let down. In any case, a lot can happen in the interim and being the warden of the North gives him time to consolidate.

Dan_Solo · 15-04-2014 5:37pm

EyeSight wrote: »

But if all the food was poisoned they would all die. Also all the dogs would die after they ate it and fingers would point to Cersei
So that doesn't make sense

I said this earlier. Don't see how it could be the pie. How much poison would it take for a pie that size! Not to mention the doves inside it were fine...
What I don't get about any of the poisoned wine theories is how anybody could've known Joffrey would make it so much of a fuss with Tyrion to cover their tracks.

ShaggyQueen · 15-04-2014 6:03pm

thefa wrote: »

He switched sides when the war was turning against Robb. Unrest in the North Army's leadership over Robb's decision to marry Talisa which impeded their alliance with the Freys. Losing Jaime Lannister as a hostage(Catelyn letting him go, not when Roose struck a deal and released him) which eventually led to the Karstark leader kiiling the boys and Karstark being beheaded which lost Robb a large chunk of his army. Robb wasn't losing battles but was still losing the war. Bolton was jumping ship. In his comments to Walder Frey, he did not seem to have a good opinion of Robb on a personal level either.

Roose being made Warden of the North with new land entitlements and having the support of the Lannisters made more sense that ending up on the losing side. Roose has no living trueborn son so I doubt the long-term prospect of Tyrion and Sansa having a kid to take over was that much of a let down. In any case, a lot can happen in the interim and being the warden of the North gives him time to consolidate.

Thanks, forgotten about some of that, makes his decision look a bit more understandable. Thoughts Robbs decision to behead Karstark was especially stupid

Degag · 15-04-2014 6:14pm

iamanengine wrote: »

Looks like Tyrion will get the initial blame but doubt very much he will go down for it, but with GoT who knows what could happen. That said I doubt Tywin would let that happen. F*cken Cersei!

I said the same in the first series - I said they won't kill Ned, he's the star of the show, he's the.....

So I can't say I have a lot of hope for Tyrion!

Also, wasn't it Roose's men who cut Jaime's hand off? I can't remember rightly but surely that would have strained relations between the Lannisters and the Boltons?

thefa · 15-04-2014 6:35pm

ShaggyQueen wrote: »

Thanks, forgotten about some of that, makes his decision look a bit more understandable. Thoughts Robbs decision to behead Karstark was especially stupid

Ya, I think they were trying to portray him as a bit too like Ned in the rules were the rules and wasn't making an exception no matter who the person was. Ned would have married the Frey girl though and avoided the whole thing if he was in Robb's shoes I'd say!

thefa · 15-04-2014 6:45pm

Degag wrote: »

I said the same in the first series - I said they won't kill Ned, he's the star of the show, he's the.....

So I can't say I have a lot of hope for Tyrion!

Also, wasn't it Roose's men who cut Jaime's hand off? I can't remember rightly but surely that would have strained relations between the Lannisters and the Boltons?

Roose had deployed his men to recapture Jaime for Robb(or so he said) but his captain decided to take Jaime down a peg when he is captured and cuts off his hand. Roose releases Jaime and tells Jaime to let his father know he had nothing to do with his maiming.

TheIrishGrover · 15-04-2014 7:19pm

Dan_Solo · 15-04-2014 7:24pm

What's the difference between a nweb and a show-watcher in that?

Precious flower · 15-04-2014 7:48pm

Great episode, I'm liking Oberyn Martell too, he's funny, seems a bit psychotic!:D Kind of thought Joffery's death would be more brutal!:( Really going to miss him as a character though!

Bacchus · 15-04-2014 9:36pm

Regarding that link being posted with a theory on what killed Joffrey. I looked at it with the expectation that is purely a theory from someone who had not read the books. Please book readers, do not confirm nor deny if it is a spoiler from the books. Thanks

Dan_Solo · 15-04-2014 9:56pm

If that is the real explanation behind HOW Joffrey was poisoned, I'm still completely in the dark as to the WHY!:)

Bacchus · 15-04-2014 10:01pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If that is the real explanation behind HOW Joffrey was poisoned, I'm still completely in the dark as to the WHY!:)

If it is the HOW, the WHY is pretty obvious (spoiler tagged just in case...)

Sansa hates Joffrey. She is literally his prisoner and she is at his mercy... of which, he had none. Why wouldn't she try to kill him.

Grimebox · 15-04-2014 10:12pm

Bacchus wrote: »

If it is the HOW, the WHY is pretty obvious (spoiler tagged just in case...)
Sansa hates Joffrey. She is literally his prisoner and she is at his mercy... of which, he had none. Why wouldn't she try to kill him.

If we're talking about the same imgur album

Sansa didn't do it. She was just a mule for the poisoned stones. The old woman can now pin it on Sansa and Tyrion. Sansa is oblivious.

Dan_Solo · 15-04-2014 10:12pm

Bacchus wrote: »

If it is the HOW, the WHY is pretty obvious (spoiler tagged just in case...)
Sansa hates Joffrey. She is literally his prisoner and she is at his mercy... of which, he had none. Why wouldn't she try to kill him.

But but but

My reading of that explanation of the conspiracy was that Sansa wasn't in on it at all, she was just asked to wear a necklace!

EDIT: What Grimebox said!
But still, seeing a lot of luck involved for the blame to be shifted away so efficiently. Don't see how they could've planned that at all.

Artful_Badger · 15-04-2014 10:30pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But but but
My reading of that explanation of the conspiracy was that Sansa wasn't in on it at all, she was just asked to wear a necklace!

EDIT: What Grimebox said!
But still, seeing a lot of luck involved for the blame to be shifted away so efficiently. Don't see how they could've planned that at all.

If its right then the mule is also being set up for the fall. Its the only reason to do it that way.

Anachrony · 15-04-2014 10:46pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

What's the difference between a nweb and a show-watcher in that?

It's season 4. Some people have been obsessing over everything about the show for 4 years now. While others have only recently been persuaded to give in to the hype and watch it. Some may have had a marathon session of watching the DVDs while others may not have ever seen the full series but still have plenty of reason to hate Joffrey from this one episode alone. But of course the joke is that everyone responded pretty much the same.

iamanengine · 15-04-2014 10:58pm

Spoilers in the Have NOT Read the Books thread gives me a sad

Big Pussy Bonpensiero · 15-04-2014 11:22pm

iamanengine wrote: »

Spoilers in the Have NOT Read the Books thread gives me a sad

It's a fcuking joke tbh.. Will never understand why people do it.. Hope the whoever originally posted the spoiler gets perma-banned from this forum.

D.Q · 15-04-2014 11:30pm

such an odd situation with the tv and books running at the same time. I gave up on the books a couple of chapters into a feast for crows. Just got too tedious for me personally. Too many names, and don't really love his style. The content is fantastic though obviously, and when its all dripped through the filter of television/HBO it becomesincredibly entertaining.

So I'm in the strange position of knowing that

he died

, but was so confused by that stage in the books that I didn't know

who killed him, or if he just choked or what

. Spoiling anything for anyone is a prick move, but it'll be mighty hard avoiding them over the next few weeks. Especially the way content just pops up on newsfeeds etc etc

edit: those spoilers are only about the episode, not about the books.

Mr Blobby · 15-04-2014 11:34pm

Would the people putting book spoilers in here kindly jog on!! :mad:

Amirani · 15-04-2014 11:41pm

D.Q wrote: »

such an odd situation with the tv and books running at the same time. I gave up on the books a couple of chapters into a feast for crows. Just got too tedious for me personally. Too many names, and don't really love his style. The content is fantastic though obviously, and when its all dripped through the filter of television/HBO it becomesincredibly entertaining.

So I'm in the strange position of knowing that
he died
, but was so confused by that stage in the books that I didn't know
who killed him, or if he just choked or what
. Spoiling anything for anyone is a prick move, but it'll be mighty hard avoiding them over the next few weeks. Especially the way content just pops up on newsfeeds etc etc

edit: those spoilers are only about the episode, not about the books.

I don't think it's necessary to spoiler tag stuff that happened in this episode if it's not based on knowledge from the books? Spoiler tags shouldn't really be appearing in this thread in general, everyone posting should be in the same boat as regards how much they've seen?

Artful_Badger · 15-04-2014 11:42pm

The spoiler tags over the last couple pages are a courtesy to other posters and are just hiding discussion about that link which itself is just hyper analysis of the episode. Whether it was made with knowledge of the books or not I dont know (I havent read the books) but every single thing in it is a comment on what happened in episode 2 and I seen nothing referencing the books.

I get that it ruins the mystery if its actually right (which is why some posters spoiler tagged the discussion of it) but people have to take responsibility too for the fact they are online on discussion forums where episodes are being dissected. If you dont want to see or hear such details then dont come in here.

GerB40 · 16-04-2014 12:25am

THFC wrote: »

It's a fcuking joke tbh.. Will never understand why people do it.. Hope the whoever originally posted the spoiler gets perma-banned from this forum.

I have a feeling one or two posters on this thread have read the books and is pretending to be just guessing what's going on. Actually I'm fairly certain but I'll leave it at that. Not tryin to be a dîck but going into detail could lead to potential spoilers..

kryogen · 16-04-2014 12:27am

Cracking episode, really happy with Joffrey getting a nice painful death, but I really will miss the little ****er! Actor has to get a huge amount of credit for his portrayal of him. Tyrion being so cruel to Shae must have been very hard for him, but the fact that we dont actually see her go and how Bronn assures Tyrion she is definitely gone makes me think we may not have seen the last of her

Seems to be the way Martin writes! Unpredictability becoming somewhat predictable!

Going from opportunity the only logical conclusion is that Oleanna (sp?) Tyrell is responsible for the murder, nobody else had opportunity really that fits the timing, Tyrion would have been seen interfering with it, and and he just obviously didnt do it! Sansa, I am not certain she has it in her to take a life, regardless of how badly that person deserves it!! The goblet is then placed in front of Oleanna, by Margery, who I would imagine is complicit in the act, before it is returned to Joffrey and he only shows a reaction to what he has drunk at that point.

No other person fits tbh and there was also plenty of focus on her, her unhappiness with lots of things surrounding the wedding and indeed the wedding itself.

I dont believe Tywin had any hand in it, nor Cersei but I think Littlefinger is conspicuous by his absence, was it explained why he is not at the wedding? He is a schemer and his absence casts suspicion on him along with his connection to the Tyrells.

Cannot wait till next week now, going to be downloading instead of watching on Sky Atlantic though, they ruined the mood with ads for me

Edit: Just to clarify after I read the post above mine, I have not read the books or anything like that, my post is purely speculative from my own watching of the episode and all that led up to that for the last 3 seasons!

Syferus · 16-04-2014 1:14am

Kold wrote: »

I think it was Tywin. It actually consolidates his grip getting the monster out, people will embrace the new Lannister after that nutjob. Also masterfully swats the Tyrrells aside and whatever they had in mind. However, the glancing looks from the two gay lads suggests that they may have a new alliance to come.

Be funny if it turns out it was the Kingslayer out of habit.

Err, pushing aside the second richest house on the continent when you are in a pile of debt and have a battered army wouldn't be masterfully swatting away a problem, it would be creating a new, much more severe one.

I assume Margery will be married off to the younger brother unless Tywin has taken leave of his senses completely.

thefa · 16-04-2014 1:24am

I am speculating about the validity of the imugr theory

of Olenna poisoning the goblet. So she is supposed to have dropped poison into the goblet on the next table a good couple of metres away, all while just to the side of the crowd's view of Joffrey and in front of that kingsguard who's shoulder you can see just over Sansa's right shoulder in the picture below. Risky to put it mildly for such a smart woman.

Link related to above.
http://i.imgur.com/yPnRA3o.png

Amirani · 16-04-2014 1:39am

Artful_Badger wrote: »

The spoiler tags over the last couple pages are a courtesy to other posters and are just hiding discussion about that link which itself is just hyper analysis of the episode. Whether it was made with knowledge of the books or not I dont know (I havent read the books) but every single thing in it is a comment on what happened in episode 2 and I seen nothing referencing the books.

I get that it ruins the mystery if its actually right (which is why some posters spoiler tagged the discussion of it) but people have to take responsibility too for the fact they are online on discussion forums where episodes are being dissected. If you dont want to see or hear such details then dont come in here.

Yeah I understand that. I was referring to the poster I quoted and what he used spoiler tags on.

Putting spoiler tags on the stuff about the link is absolutely the correct thing to do.

December2012 · 16-04-2014 1:56am

D.Q wrote: »

. I gave up on the books a couple of chapters into a feast for crows. Just got too tedious for me personally. Too many names. .

I found the same and another poster gave me a link to a great combined reading order for books 4 and 5. If you want the link let me know.

irish son · 16-04-2014 7:39am

Was that Bran controlling a dragon in his vision?

Essien · 16-04-2014 7:46am

irish son wrote: »

Was that Bran controlling a dragon in his vision?

I think so. I'll be disappointed if this doesn't happen eventually. It was the first thing I thought when I knew what he could do.

Da Shins Kelly · 16-04-2014 8:18am

So Bran could pose problems for the dragon lady? That's interesting. His whole power is strange though. Can he only do that since he fell the from the window? Also, where is he supposed to be going? To meet Jon Snow?

Artful_Badger · 16-04-2014 8:25am

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

So Bran could pose problems for the dragon lady? That's interesting. His whole power is strange though. Can he only do that since he fell the from the window? Also, where is he supposed to be going? To meet Jon Snow?

He's gone beyond the wall following the three eyed crow or whatever it is in his dreams. After talking to the tree in the last episode he seems to be off to another tree further north.

Da Shins Kelly · 16-04-2014 8:29am

Artful_Badger wrote: »

He's gone beyond the wall following the three eyed crow or whatever it is in his dreams. After talking to the tree in the last episode he seems to be off to another tree further north.

Good Lord. I hope that story picks up pace a bit.

kryogen · 16-04-2014 10:04am

Da Shins Kelly wrote: »

Good Lord. I hope that story picks up pace a bit.

Not all the stories can move at the same pace, some need to be built up slowly, kept on the back burner but the audience still kept aware they are happening tbh.

Its integral to telling a huge story like this

garv123 · 16-04-2014 10:29am

I liked the subtle bit where it cuts from theon and ramsey snow straight to tyrion and jamie cutting up and eating sausages.

Gal44 · 16-04-2014 10:46am

And Brienne loves jaime....!?

Cant believe how much i really like Jaime Lannister now!

kryogen · 16-04-2014 10:50am

I don't even think Jamie has changed a whole lot over the course of the show, but he is certainly one of my favorite characters

Grimebox · 16-04-2014 10:52am

That whole story with Bran is really testing me. He his just following his visions with no indication of what they mean. We also have no idea who these two kids who joined him are. It would be fitting in this show if he randomly got killed all of a sudden.

Permabear · 16-04-2014 10:55am

This post has been deleted.

Witcher · 16-04-2014 10:59am

Grimebox wrote: »

That whole story with Bran is really testing me. He his just following his visions with no indication of what they mean. We also have no idea who these two kids who joined him are. It would be fitting in this show if he randomly got killed all of a sudden.

They've explained how the Reeds know the Starks. It was in an episode pretty soon after they met last season.

Maximus Alexander · 16-04-2014 11:04am

Jaime's really not a very good kingsguard. He killed one king and has since had two more die under his watch. I know I'd have been sacked at this stage if I kept failing that hard at my job. :pac:

Witcher · 16-04-2014 11:06am

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Jaime's really not a very good kingsguard. He killed one king and has since had two more die under his watch. I know I'd have been sacked at this stage if I kept failing that hard at my job. :pac:

In fairness, he wasn't there for Robert's death and there wasn't much he could do for Joffrey...can't fight poison.

Barristan Selmy has also lost two kings..just the nature of the job, hard for 7 men to protect a king if somebody really wants to kill them.

Jaime and Barristan were the only competent one's in Robert's kingsguard, now one is maimed and the other gone.

Aerys had some of the deadliest fighters ever seen in his KG but his family still died..just the way it goes:p

Maximus Alexander · 16-04-2014 11:13am

Blay wrote: »

In fairness, he wasn't there for Robert's death and there wasn't much he could do for Joffrey...can't fight poison.

Barristan Selmy has also lost two kings..just the nature of the job, hard for 7 men to protect a king if somebody really wants to kill them.

Aye but you could argue that he should have been there for Robert and that he should have prevented the poisoning.

Witcher · 16-04-2014 11:21am

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Aye but you could argue that he should have been there for Robert and that he should have prevented the poisoning.

Barristan was with Robert and couldn't save him..guy was gored by a boar while hunting..KG can't save a king from himself.

They couldn't have saved Joffrey unless they tasted everything he ate and even then the killer would have got him another time.

It's like the Secret Service...you can do everything right and it still might not be enough to save the person. The advantage is always to the assassin.

Stone Deaf 4evr · 16-04-2014 11:37am

Blay wrote: »

Barristan was with Robert and couldn't save him..guy was gored by a boar while hunting..KG can't save a king from himself.

They couldn't have saved Joffrey unless they tasted everything he ate and even then the killer would have got him another time.

It's like the Secret Service...you can do everything right and it still might not be enough to save the person. The advantage is always to the assassin.

I could be wrong, but wasnt it implied that his drink had been drugged while he was hunting, making his reactions slower and thus ending up with him being gored. I remember tyrion interviewing the guy who was supplying the wine.

Witcher · 16-04-2014 11:43am

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

I could be wrong, but wasnt it implied that his drink had been drugged while he was hunting, making his reactions slower and thus ending up with him being gored. I remember tyrion interviewing the guy who was supplying the wine.

Yeah but Robert was a well known wino..him emptying a skin or two while hunting is normal. Even by checking it Barristan wouldn't have known it was strongwine and that it would affect Robert enough to let a boar goar him. If the KG had to taste every cup or jar of wine Robert had they'd be blind.

It's just not possible to protect someone from every possible threat.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero · 16-04-2014 12:00pm

Syferus wrote: »

Err, pushing aside the second richest house on the continent when you are in a pile of debt and have a battered army wouldn't be masterfully swatting away a problem, it would be creating a new, much more severe one.

I assume Margery will be married off to the younger brother unless Tywin has taken leave of his senses completely.

Don't for a second think it was Tywin but a lot of the debt is to House Lannister iirc, and as far as Tywin knows the war is as good as over. Robb & Renly have both been killed, Stannis (as far as Tywin knows) has very little with which to threaten Kings Landing, and Balon Greyjoy only wants the North.

On another point, Asha (Theon's sister) is sailing for the Dreadfort (since the end of last season), and it's only just clicked with me that Roose Bolton has sent whatever army he has south to Moat Cailin with his bastard. With the Greyjoys controlling the Neck, and with presumably most of Bolton's force south of the Neck, the Dreadfort could easily fall, which poses a serious threat to Tywin if actually ever wants the North. Obviously, with the whitewalkers, the North is a bit of a poisoned chalice, but none aside from the wildlings and Night's Watch are aware of it.

Mickeroo · 16-04-2014 12:11pm

Blay wrote: »

Yeah but Robert was a well known wino..him emptying a skin or two while hunting is normal. Even by checking it Barristan wouldn't have known it was strongwine and that it would affect Robert enough to let a boar goar him. If the KG had to taste every cup or jar of wine Robert had they'd be blind.

It's just not possible to protect someone from every possible threat.

Jaimie would have more likely been in on the plot to off Robert if he was around King's Landing than trying to save him imo.

username123 · 16-04-2014 12:14pm

THFC wrote: »

Don't for a second think it was Tywin but a lot of the debt is to House Lannister iirc, and as far as Tywin knows the war is as good as over. Robb & Renly have both been killed, Stannis (as far as Tywin knows) has very little with which to threaten Kings Landing, and Balon Greyjoy only wants the North.

On another point, Asha (Theon's sister) is sailing for the Dreadfort (since the end of last season), and it's only just clicked with me that Roose Bolton has sent whatever army he has south to Moat Cailin with his bastard. With the Greyjoys controlling the Neck, and with presumably most of Bolton's force south of the Neck, the Dreadfort could easily fall, which poses a serious threat to Tywin if actually ever wants the North. Obviously, with the whitewalkers, the North is a bit of a poisoned chalice, but none aside from the wildlings and Night's Watch are aware of it.

Its interesting that you refer to Theons sister as Asha as in the tv show her name is Yara.

Son0vagun · 16-04-2014 12:17pm

username123 wrote: »

Its interesting that you refer to Theons sister as Asha as in the tv show her name is Yara.

He Looks like a book reader to me!

Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; *Have NOT* Read the Books

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Season 4; Episode 2: 'The Lion and the Rose'; Have NOT Read the Books